E-Chuan Arm Bar [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Ray Pina

10-24-2005, 06:42 AM

Cool. Thanks. Here's the last pic of the frame:

I know that's a standard lock. My master calls all those types of things arm bars because he looks at it like a crowbar, that kind of leverage.

The lock itself isn't a big deal to me, like I said, standard issue, its the getting in unscathed. This guy was a hit and run specialist with fast hands. Caught me with a good Thai Kick to the thigh while I was hanging in that "nuetral zone" .... not so nuetral huh?

Well, it raised a good question for me to ask my master tomorrow.

The good part, how I chased him down, connected with a good shot, is sort of off camera. But the arms bar, or, what did you call it (let me scroll down) .... I like hammer lock. The hammer lock is easy to relate to these days of submissions.

ShaolinTiger00

10-24-2005, 06:50 AM

Did this guy (opponent)have any grappling experience?

Face2Fist

10-24-2005, 06:58 AM

Did this guy (opponent)have any grappling experience?

good question? what was his background?

Ray Pina

10-24-2005, 08:07 AM

sorry for the delay .... work computer problems.

Well, I can only go by what he said:

He said he trains his stand up at under the same guy the Serra brothers do, some place out here on Long Island, in New Hyde Park. I never heard of those guys, though I know of the Serra brothers and their exploits in the UFC.

Besides that, he is a Thai Boxer and some sort of submission wrestler ... don't know if its BJJ, JJ, or what. But he brought a training partner working the focus mits pretty good and rolled with him and went over positions for like 20 minutes to warm up before our match and looked good. After our fight he made minced meat out of the poor Asian dude who's been doing full-contact Karate for like 6 months. I never heard of that style but everyone else did. Kind of a no fooling around karate. He was too small and not enough training, I couldn't bring myself to beat him.

In our match he over kicked a lot, spinning himself but I hestitate to charge, respecting him and being mindful of adonkey kick. He landed one nice Thai roundhouse to my thigh which I feel now. One of those that register in the fight but not pain, just a tight soreness after you shower type of thing.

Finally I told myself don't let this guy chip you. I had about 15lbs on him and just needed to avoid his hands. He over kicked, I charged, he tried to run, I chased him down, cracked him in his ear, he grapped and pulled us down and the photos take us home from there.

Kind of feeling like I exhausted this resource (having called on Bullshido and Sherdog) and will speak to my master about amatuer MMA tomorrow. I have some business in late Jan., so have to decide if I want in before or fater that. Personally, I still think I need more clinch work. I feel like I can jam any punching and kicking, am good once I'm down, but still feel a little inexperienced in the clinch. I can admit, that's my weekest part. But we're working on it.

David Jamieson

10-24-2005, 09:38 AM

kungfu beating mma doesn't go well and will likely not get much discussion in teh mma circles.

the immediate response will be as above:

IE: 'what did he train, who did he train with, he's a nobody, that guys not really mma etc etc etc.

and so on with more sour grapes.

so long as kungfu geeks think that words make it and so long as mma types only beat on geeks, the status quo won't change.

ah well, I don't care anymore, I'm doing my thing, i'm calling it kungfu (cause that's what it is) and I'm copping the bits of mma training that I deem useful into it as I come across em.

btw, the move you're doing is a crushing or constricting move. Not an invention of mma, not and invention of kungfu, just crushing out your opponent as best you can to stop his ability to attack.

Ray Pina

10-24-2005, 11:06 AM

I just know it because when we had the Gracie guy training at our school (he since quit their gym and trains with my master full time now) my master would put it on both of us all the time and I'd just be like, "How did you do that?"

Now I see that locks just kind of fall into place. I personally like striking. But I knew I had the guy and that seamed like a nicer way to do it, plus, that's my first pure submission on a stranger fighting me that I have on film:)

My biggest growth on the ground was realising that if I maintain the same principlesas our stand up -- position, strong structure, don't over extend, don't hit without first controlling -- then things become alot safer. The first thing I do when I hit the ground, right after I instinctively pull my hands and feet in alittle tigher than where ever they happen to be, is tell myself "Relax, take it easy." Funny thing is, I tell myself that as I strap on my gloves for the beginning too.

I'm learning. But like I said, I need more heavy clinch work.

Ray Pina

10-24-2005, 11:17 AM

I plan on ****ing off a lot of MMAist.

For the most part, I agree with what they say about traditional martial artists not being able to fight .... but that doesn't mean the material is not there.

Besides their clinch and ground game, which I find to be extremely technical, their kicking and punching is basis, which is good, but I don't see it in the smooth, crisp boxing basic way. What I'm saying is I don't see the MMA's kicking and punching being any superior to a 3rd dan of TKD even..... all punching is over kill anyway. And their blocking is retarted.

I think a lot of styles -- Wing Cun, all internal, S Mantis, Bak Mei, ect. ect, -- could be very effective if they trained them with greater intent. I didn't say harder, because that could be mistaken for lifting and conditioning like the MMA. Just test the technique and modify it. And do it and do it and do it over and over until it's right. It's just that for some reason MMA attracts fighters while TCMA seems to attract nostalgia. I think we can have both. I love Shaw Brother films, but I like not losing fights better.

lkfmdc

10-24-2005, 11:48 AM

edited for typos....

Sorry to rain on the parade and all, but asking who the guy was and what training he has are two totally valid questions

Some people just tap out of fear, others because they simply don't know how to escape from something....

Taping a guy who trains submissions from watching tapes is different than tapping a BJJ black belt...

I would suspect the person here has very limited submission knowledge, based upon the very picture you posted!

For one, his left elbow is almost free. Your right arm should be under the elbow, on the upper arm

Second, your left hand is behind the head, decreasing the leverage as you are applying the hold

Third, you are siting up, not using your body weight to pin him.

Based upon this, most trained submission people (BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Shooto etc) would be able to bear the initial pain and reverse the situation...

Also, what is "disinctly Chinese" about mounting someone and locking their arm?

Most people would look at this series of pics and call it BJJ..... more enlightened would call it Judo

lkfmdc

10-24-2005, 11:51 AM

http://judoinfo.com/images/kansetsu/ude_garami.gif

This picture can hopefully demonstrate the three points I addressed....

lkfmdc

10-24-2005, 11:52 AM

uh, masked web sites, can't directly link

http://judoinfo.com/quiz0297_2.htm

it is the cartoon at the bottom, the top player is in white, the victim is in blue

MasterKiller

10-24-2005, 11:57 AM

Props for winning!

I would say, however, that from pic 6.6, that this guy might not have been very good on the ground. You are in a pefect position for the Upa Escape, which is about as basic as ground fighting gets. All he had to do was trap your leg with his and bridge.

Of course, that's not your problem. He stepped up and you beat him. You can't be responsible for his level of training.

Were you gassing at all after 2 1/2 minutes?

Ray Pina

10-24-2005, 12:27 PM

Not at all. I stayed very calm and didn't throw a single strike for what seemed like forever for me. He'd come in, throw a wild roundhouse and I'd step back. One I didn't want to move for and paid for.

He'd try some combos with his hands and I'd jam him. His thing was speed. He'd come in, throw something, and then disapear .... he constantly circled to my right, his left. I was thinking about circling him into a kick but wasn't sure how good he was on the ground and didn't want to give him an opportunity to take me down and get position.... I took it slow and easy.

I feel very good about a fight once I get my hands on the guy. If he comes in, I'm sure, at the very worst, I'll take two shots ..... it's my job to make sure my strike zone -- chin to tip of noce, collor bone to collor bone is completely closed. I'm confident from there that my mechanics will have me overpower the guy to open him up to strikes..... but he kept doging me. Finally I ran him down.

As for the lock. I'm not sure, but saying it looks like BJJ or Judo .... I'll take that:) They know what they're doing. I'm just flowing, keeping leverage.

I'll tell you one thing though. In the video, from pic 5 to pic 6, I pretty much use my legs and drive off the floor completely strecthing him out. I had control of my weight ..... not to mention that there were a few shots I softened him up with. All landing. All full power.

You know, a wins a win but I don't feel like I accomplished anything fantastic. The guy's ground wasn't so great. He wasn't anyway to the level of Ross's fighters. I can admit that easily. It was what it was. Got some interesting video, because there's a bunch of Wing Chun guys playing with butterfly knives in the background and you should see them once its apparant what we're up to.:eek:

lkfmdc

10-24-2005, 12:33 PM

I'm not attacking you for your throwdowns

I'm not attacking you for who you "fought"

I'm not attacking you for you win

I wouldn't attack you if you lost...

I am just trying to get you to understand relativity and perspective and see a bigger picture....

ShaolinTiger00

10-24-2005, 12:47 PM

I would suspect the person here has very limited submission knowledge, based upon the very picture you posted!

Based upon my own submission experience I also suspect this and it was the reason I asked.

but you don't walk into an mma "fight" (or throwdown) and give yourself an excuse of "I don't know grappling!" so you won by whatever means you had to and that's the important truth.

If you're interested in getting some MMA fights, I know several promoters who are always looking for fighters pro & amateur for events in Ohio.

steelvalleymma@hotmail.com

Ray Pina

10-25-2005, 07:00 AM

Are those the closest events?

I've been giving this a lot of thought lately and last night I made my decision. There is someone I'd like to fight before the year is out. I'm going to enjoy the weekend and then refocus. After that fight, I'd like to begin in amatuer MMA . I was watching the UFC last night and it's guys with that kind of fire I want and need to be fighting.

What I have been doing was my way of battle hardening myself. I needed to work my technique, but even more importantly I had to develop that mindset. All these years of MA training I never had it, that desire, the craving, when you have those light nerves and super aware of the other guy and his movements and then .... just like that you have him, controlled, and you just cream him. Not out of anger or hate, because you know you have him and you can end this and go home unscathed and everyone asks how it went and wants to see the video. That moment, when you know you have the guy that was trying to get you, and unleashing your weapons .... it's beautiful. It realy is. In it's own way. The week of preparing yourself eating right, not getting off, hanging in on the weekend, all that just goes away in that one moment and you feel good. Light. High.

Ray Pina

10-25-2005, 07:09 AM

I would say, however, that from pic 6.6, that this guy might not have been very good on the ground. You are in a pefect position for the Upa Escape, which is about as basic as ground fighting gets. All he had to do was trap your leg with his and bridge.

I'd have to disagree, but only because I was there and have video. Maybe the still doesn't do it justice.

That frame is actually a few nano seconds -- well maybe a second -- after he tapped (there was alot of background noise). The arms is about popped already.

His left leg wasn't wear it was, I pushed it down with my right knee stretching out his lower body while driving my upper body, which was clung to his arm, up and over completely stretching him out. Any big movement from him and I could have just dove, while holding that lock, taking his arm with me.

I'm not a ground fighter so I don't know all the ins and outs and definitely no names. I just think about position and structure. Making sure I have mine while trying to ruin his.

Another thing to remember: I can show you footage of pro UFC fighters eating a straight round house kick to their head .... no block. I'm sure they trained lots of ways to stop it. But when you're in it, you're either thinking about this or that possability or not thinking at all. It's definitely chaos, but that's what I like about it. To me, it's like standing in the barrel and the waves alla round you and the reefs below you but you know your fins will hold you in .... and they do, unless they don't.

Face2Fist

10-25-2005, 07:19 AM

the guy looks small, how much did he weigh? i think that was a factor too.
another question why dont you show your "videos", you just show clips, show the whole thing.

Ray Pina

10-25-2005, 07:56 AM

I'm about 15lbs heavier ... and he insulted me right away by saying I was too big for him.

Unless his technique is based on bench pressing the other guy off of him, weight was no factor. He dragged me down! As soon as we got their, I set position, cracked him, he blocked, and then I cranked.

He posted size as an issue, I made my comment, and then he detracted. He had no problem punching the hell out of the other guy who only trained 6 months and was at least 15 to 20 lbs ligher than himself.

But I made it clear. This is not a tournament or sport where we step on the scales. I invite everyone and you don't know what style, size or skill level will show up. I always play with the bigest guy and I always play first. This time the biggest guy was smaller than me but that's usually not the case.

The guy in the pic below had 50+ lbs on me.

As for video, I need more memory to start minupulating it and burning it, but I'm working on a project of much larger scope than this. I'm sure sooner or later a teaser will be posted or maybe a Kung Fu magazine like this would find value in including a free DVD of a kung fu guy submitting and KOing a few MMA guys as a teaster and indorsement. That would be fun. And a big middle finger to some MMA guys to come play with a non-competitive, taiji hippy push over.

Face2Fist

10-25-2005, 08:03 AM

Ray Pina

10-25-2005, 08:16 AM

No, you're right. That was my first Throwdown. Or, actually, the first one on film.

I showed my master that footage and it was obvious that I wasn't grounded, not striking from the hip, etc. Been working on that specifically now for about a month or two. Ba Gua kind of focuses on that, coordinating the foot, hip and palm/punch. It's not internalized yet. But working on it.

But also, look at that pic, even on my tippy toes and punching upwards I'm just reaching his chin.

That's the end of the fight. He's done in about 1 more second and then he's off screen. I had no second and had to set up the tripod.

The one good thing about that fight is how I "got him", how I jammed his lead strike and jumped on it without reloading. He reloaded and in the interim took a blow that dropped him to a knee. I never stopped punching after that. I got to give it to the guy, he covered and took about 7 all-I-got punches before I got one in that rocked him again.

My punching now is smaller but more power if you can believe something like that.

Ray Pina

10-25-2005, 08:23 AM

I'm going to be out of town for a day or two. I'll post something technical for you when I get back.

Face2Fist

10-25-2005, 09:50 AM

As for video, I need more memory to start minupulating it and burning it, but I'm working on a project of much larger scope than this. I'm sure sooner or later a teaser will be posted or maybe a Kung Fu magazine like this would find value in including a free DVD of a kung fu guy submitting and KOing a few MMA guys as a teaster and indorsement. That would be fun. And a big middle finger to some MMA guys to come play with a non-competitive, taiji hippy push over.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! what have you been smoking? seriously?

wiz cool c

10-25-2005, 10:05 AM

Ikfmdc how many SanDa fights have you had?

lkfmdc

10-25-2005, 10:49 AM

In the 1980's when I was fighting, neither the term nor the san da format was here in the United States. I fought a variety of full contact formats, including full contact TKD, kickboxing, amateur boxing, Muay Thai and Lei Tai/Kuoshu

I had about 20 something fights..... let the trolling begin :rolleyes:

Ray Pina

10-25-2005, 11:12 AM

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! what have you been smoking? seriously?

Oh, man. All summer there was some serious hom grown circulating around Long Beach called Grape Fruit, which is odd, because I don't like Grape Fruit and it didn't taist like Grape Fruit (thank God) and the buds weren't particularly dense or anything .... actualy kind of stringy. But man, a few hits of that and boy were you ready to go surfing. And skip up the block. And take off on a wave and ollie over some kooks head and not have to vibe him because with a grin and comfort level like that you'r eobviously not just local but this must be your block.

THEN, there was some crazy Strawberry going around. I mean, the only stuff that zonked me like that is NYC Diezel. But that aint so easy to get these days ..... after my friends who ran for that family got busted like 2 years ago.

Right now. Well, not right now. Last night, and tonight, as soon as I get out of here .... I'm not sure of the name. Home grown. But it smell and taists delicious.

Thanks for asking

.......

PS
I don't think its fair or right for anyone to bash Ross. He knows what he's doing and has some well-trained fighters who can use their stuff. He's the first one I've seen on here who has a TCMA background and can deliver. He's got a great facility and the right attitude. I get into it with him because he's quick to dismiss "Kung Fu" .... not strip mall Kung Fu, but NYC, home grown Chinatown, kick you in the pants Kung Fu. I know he seen it. I just don't know why he can't believe that a wacky guy like myself can't learn in and wield it and that it would be different than what is currently "the way to fight."