Taiji Hold the Ball?

[Ray Pina]

. . . . . . . .

[Ou Ji]

Looks closer to Cloud Hands.

[Ray Pina]

Yea!!!!!

I never learned the form, but I kind of use the same power when doing both (sure this is my mistake)... that shoulder pulling or pushing the mass of the arm .... kind of like swinging a heavy one-handed hammer power, or pulling a lawn mower chord.

But yea, I can see the cloud hands too.:)

[Shooter]

that's a press

[TenTigers]

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"
-Sigmund Freud

[midnite_ninja]

doesn't look like tai chi to me ;)

[The Willow Sword]

i guess it is one way to explain "hold the ball". although i thought that hold the ball was more of a standing embrace used to throw the opponent down rather than what those pics show(which from my view looks like your basic mount and grapple from the ground).

although there are alot of ways to intepret the movements in tai chi. whatever definition that works personally for you is what counts(nothing new).

peas and wub,,,,TWS

[fiercest tiger]

Ray,

You working on submissions?

FT:)

[imperialtaichi]

Interesting....

I am sure such "grappling looking" moves are very effective, and if it is an interpretation of "holding the ball" one can say so.

But in my opinion what make Tai Chi unique is the principles behind it, not the moves. So what I'm asking in this case is:

1. How much physical strength was used?
2. If a fair bit of strength was used, was it working on its own or was it lead by Yi Qi?
3. Was the body integrated from head to toe, or was it just the upper body?
4. Did you borrow your opponent's Yi Qi or strength, or did you over-power your opponent by force?

I would say it is Tai Chi only if it sticks to some of the points above. But then, who cares if it is Tai Chi or not, if it is effective and it kicks ass?

Cheers,
John

[fiercest tiger]

Hi John,

Interesting post mate, although i must add that since ive been doing some submission and wrestling its very important to relax and feel as you can burn more energy then whats needed. Especially if you are caught on the ground and trying to escape and switch positions!

How are you developing your throwing and take down game off a punch or wrestling type clinch?

Garry:)

[Repulsive Monkey]

Interesting wrestle, and you got the superior position, but Taiji it certainly ain't.

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Repulse Monkey,

I dont understand your last post dude, can you please elaborate? Are you saying that TAIJI or your training doesnt have any type of wrestling (Chinese OR Mongolian type)?

regards
FT

[Ou Ji]

Is Taiji the technique, or the way the technique is executed?


Can Hold The Ball only be done in a standing position?


Ok, two simple questions. :D

[imperialtaichi]

since ive been doing some submission and wrestling its very important to relax and feel as you can burn more energy then whats needed



Hello Gary,

Well said about relax and feel. I am more from the "Throw and smash, hit and run" school of thought so I focus more on getting out of sticky situations and run than trying to take someone down into a submission hold.... :o

The pictures Ray posted is a good. It takes most of us back to reality and have to contemplate on "how do I get out of this sh!t using my Tai Chi!"

In my opinion, Tai Chi is not about being soft :eek: , but about being sensitive and plyable. There is a big difference between being soft and being plyable. If you stay soft like an over-cooked noodle there's no way in the world one can get out of this kind of hold. But if you are plyable like some visco-elastic material one would have a better chance to get out. A over-cooked noodle can only bend and yield, but visco-elastic material also adapt, redistribute, redirect, and recoil.

If we look at the Tai Chi classic chapter written by Wang Zhong Yue (of which many people see this chapter as gold standard), he never talked about yielding. He talked about adapting and transferring.

Cheers,
John

[fiercest tiger]

Very Kool Mate, same principles i can see to YAU KUNG flexabile power rather then just limp type. Went i meant soft i also meant plyable that is a better word! although i like more the stand up game i do throws, sweeps, takedowns. But YKM use the 3 circle method which can be applied on the ground, just people of YKM havent yet seen or experienced this IMHO. Thats why im trying to get my Submission game a bit better incase im getting taken down etc. We also strike and stuff on the ground!:)

YKM effortless type throws work on manipulating the head, neck and spine, as well taking of balance using as less force as posible although hard to always pull off but thats the theory. I think the way i see my own system is very good at clinch and stand up wrestling for the take down and throws, sweeps etc. The striking is based on soft power holding no tension!

Is that like Taiji?

have a good one mate!
Garry:)

[Ray Pina]

Well, we landed and whenever I hit the ground I tell myself, "Stay calm. Relax."

At that point, he was covered, so I popped him in the head two or three times to loosen him up. He exposed the arm, I put the standard lock on, but drove of my leg and hip, used rib and shoulder to leverage the lock ... and he tapped.

I'm an internal guy, so the principle of seaizing that position was Hold The Ball -- to me ... I like using that to capture the head when someone shoots too -- but the power you can say is Cloud Hands.

I don't know. I just thought it was cool for an internal guy to get a submission like that. I have zero BJJ, Judo, ect. Training. I learned it from my master.

[MasterKiller]

I thought you said you learned that key lock from an ex-Gracie student who studied with you?

[fiercest tiger]

lol

All circles, spirials, arches can be seizing and throwing skills.

If you can think you wil work them out!

FT

[Ray Pina]

I thought you said you learned that key lock from an ex-Gracie student who studied with you?


I learned how to do it when he started training with us because we started to focus on the ground for a while. I learned the lock from my master. It's standard. The hard part is how to get in a good position to put it on. More importantly, how to defend against it when you are on the bottom.