The Name's of the moves in the form's

[WhiteMonkey]

Can we start a list of the names of the moves in the forms....please!!!!!!

My sifu does not give names other then straight punch, uppercut, etc..

I'm looking for the nice poetic names , like mantis catch's cicada...

does anyone know the names to a form?????

WM

sorry for the spelling typing quickly at work

[libingshao]

WM,

There are the names in Chinese on several forms on MQ forums with translations, if you are Wong hon-fun Tanglang or Chiu chi-man. If you are Taiji Tanglang you are out of luck there. And those don't have the names like "tiger washes face" or "lady crossing bridge".


Sorry not to be of more help but the names differ from branch to branch.
Libingshao

[maxiaoyao]

Note sure if interpretted your response write here, but Mei Hua Tai Ji Tang Lang has names such as "tiger washes face" and "wolf slaughters the sheep" incorporated.

There are a plethora more, though I do not have them at hand at presnt...

MXY

[libingshao]

Maxiaoyao,

I am sorry for not being clear. My point was that while those names do exist in some styles of Tanglang such as Taiji, Taijimeihua, Qixing and Meihua, the poetic naming is absent for much of Hong Kong Qixing. Also I said that most of the ones transliterated and translated on the MQ were Hong Kong Mantis Boxing.

Libingshao

[Indestructible]

So... Do you plan on shouting out the name of your movements as you cross hands in glorious battle?

[Three Harmonies]

In application I agree the names are not that important, but if you want to have a firm understanding of your lineage then it can be important.
Your teacher should have the Chuan Pu (and sorry, it IS in the HK Qixing as well).
Jake :)

[BeiTangLang]

"Move #3" Vs. "Wind blows up the drunken ladys shirt" That the h@ll difference does it make? Why not a standardized "Throw your arm between their legs & throw with all your might" descriptor??

IE,.....the poetic names are just another way to say "You don't really know what the names mean,.....so your knowledge is less than mine".
To which I'd have to say, "KISS MY @SS! Lets touch hands!!"



LOL!

(Playing Devils advocate of course....)

~BTL

[Young Mantis]

The poetic names do in fact exist in HK 7*. WHF may have chosen not to include them in his books to standardize the nomenclature but it is taught to us when we learn the forms and sahn sau. The names for a particular technique might also vary from branch to another.

Vance

[WhiteMonkey]

ok so.........................................can anyone list them at least for 1 form?

My sifu, couldn't care less about the names himself, this is just for my personal mantis information, so if you could help please do....

WM

[mantid1]

It is my understanding that the poetic names were developed to make remembering combinations of techniques and forms easier. The poetic name of the technique usually resembles what you are doing in the technique. This makes it much easier (at least for me) to remember the techniques than #223 or "throw your arm between your legs and throw with all of your might".

From what I understand the video technology was not that great 100 years ago. They needed something to help remember the forms and poems worked.

In some systems these poem names are also tied in with Chinese medicine, philosophy and culture. So a person who has grown up in the Chinese culture speaking the Chinese language would have a better understanding about what is going on.

The Hung Ga system is a good example of a system that ties the philosophy and culture in their poems.

For example:

"A fist separating gold" in the hung ga system are two overhanging fist executed to the side at the same time. I was taught that the fist crossing the body before the split represents the "separating" and the double over hanging fists represents the gold. Gold being metal from the five elements. Metal is heavy which represents the over hanging fists dropping from high to low.

"Kuixing Tosses up the Greaat dipper" (kuixing ti dou) This is a kicking technique.

In Chinese culture Kuixing is the god of literature. Kuixing tossing up the great Dipper (ther great bear) with his foot" is the image of this God in the Chinese culture. (I have been told)

"The Bow is in front and the arrow is behind" Would be what some styles call the hill climbing stance or bow stance. The front leg is curved like a bow and the rear leg is straight like and arrow.

"A child Bows to Buddha" (Tongzi bai fo)

This is blocking a technique coming over top with both hands together at palms above the head. The hands resemble the praying posture. This can also be a throw.

I am sure the mantis systems have these poems also. Some teachers will not teach them because of translation and cultural differences. They feel that is you do not have an understanding of the Chinese culture that the poems will sound like "Wind blows up drunken ladys skirt" and you will not get the benefit from the poems.

I feel it is the teachers responsiblility to teach the culture along with the art. That is one reason it is called an art.

Mr. 108 gave me some great info on how the numbering in Praying Mantis is related to chinese medicine and culture. He may want to give some examples, but I will leave that up to him.

If people are not interested in the culture and only the fighting they should probably just study BJJ or muay Thai. You can possibly become an effective fighter faster in these systems.

Keep up with your pursuit of the poems. It was not spoon fed to me either. But, I feel I have learned much more by having to figure it out on my own.

Have a good day

[mantis108]

I totally agreed with Mantid1. I believe the language barrier is no doubt very difficult for both the teacher and the student. Believe it or not even Chinese has problem communicating with each other. One village might even have problem dealing with another that is located side by side. This why we have some many different convention in naming stuff.

Another important thing is that Chinese naming convention traditionally tends to be more abstract. This is because Chinese worldview is organic and holistic in nature. inanimated object such as rock (mountain) has "life" and is considered a "life force" or Qi. If you have a hard time grasping this concept, then think in terms of "tenses" as in English grammar only that it is applied to an object rather than a sentence. As such the movements in the forms are pretty much treated with the same respect. One has to "read" the Quanpu (manuscripts) in a lively manner. The benefit is that one can induce from the imageries depicted in the names as it "aged" and "see" things as they meant to be. But sometimes this is very hard because it could be very broad and general. Confusion is inevitable especially without the culture background and connotations as key.

Martial arts being a subtle science and exact art, there is a need for more accurate convention. So in mantis you would have someone like WHF who started to get use the motion descriptive names rather than the poetic names. It is great for remembering the moves but it does not give any more information about the moves. Is it a heavy striking move or is it agile and soft move? Do we know how the move relates to other moves in the grand scheme of things? Can't we see which tradition that the move might have come from? This also lends to the arguement that Tanglang is Weijia (external system) just by looking at the Quanpu because it gives nothing but a series of movement. I am not judging good or bad here. It is just that I believe there are reasons that certain things are done a certain way according to tradition. Any changes would have to be well thought out before it's too late. The same goes to just called the moves by numbers. One might break the move down into 3 pieces and the next generation might think it's better to have 1 or 2 and this is ultra problematic as well.

Here is a post that I share on the MQ forum concerning numerology and Tanglang:


Numbers and maths (Shu) are very important to the Chinese. The understanding of it is also a little different. They are not purely conceptual. In terms of the number 1 to 10, they are viewed as closely related to nature or the space-time continuum. This is why in the Yijing (Classics of Change) the numbers are known as Heaven One, Earth Two, Heaven Three, Earth Four, etc... Odd numbers are denoted as Heaven and even numbers are denoted as Earth. This also prescribes the "properties" of the numbers meaning Heaven will be Yang and Earth will be Yin. This has to be clearly established and understood before going any further into the subject because what's followed is pretty much the core of the Chinese worldview and apprehension of the space-time cotinuum. What this imply is the formulation of a model of Qi which is being understood as the quintessential element of the reality.

I am not sure if this is an area of interest to you, so I will stop here. But just for reference purposes, the number 72 is a representation of the 72 Hou (seasonal notes/measurements). a Hou is 5 days. 72 Hou means 360 days which is a complete cycle (a year) of Heavenly Stemps and Earthly Branches Calendar, which is organic in nature, that is uniquely Chinese. This is why you'd see the Zhou Tien 72 being mentioned in the last line of the Ba Duan Jin Shen Fa. BTW, this is also applied in the Internal Classics of Yellow Emperor which is the mother of all Chinese medical knowledge. There is a close relationship between Classics of Change, Internal Classics of Yellow Emperor, and Kung Fu (Classical Tanglang of Liang XueXiang in particular) IMHO.

The numbers such as 2, 4, 8, 12, and 24; 6, 7, 8, and 9; etc... are all deliberate designs and are almost uniformly applied to all three fields of studies. It is way more than meets the eyes. Using the numbers only to indicate a sequence of moves is not going to give a lot of benefit to the study of Kung Fu IMHO but then to each their own.

Mantis108

[BeiTangLang]

thats one of the discussions that brought about the "being mantis108" quote I believe! :)

BTW guys, I wrote my post as a counterpoint for discussion, not as my actual view on the subject (hence the whol devils advocate thing).
I fully believe that the poems have a place in the learning of the system, as it pertains to each families traditions.

~BTL

[mantis108]

LOL.... Thanks

Actually, there is a poetic name for "being Mantis108" as well. It's "Tian Ma Xing Kong"(Heavenly Horse Crosses the Sky) in which Tian Ma is an alias of Tanglang. ;)

I have to apologize that the post was written in a hurry. It's dropping down the thoughts that was on my mind and is not the most organized. The point is that Classical Tanglangquan as a pugilistic art and system, it is as internal as it can get with any other systems that makes the claim from a traditional perspective. The change in naming convention might perhaps be done for the benefit of the general public. But please don't judge a book by its cover.

Mantis108

[libingshao]

ok so.........................................can anyone list them at least for 1 form?

My sifu, couldn't care less about the names himself, this is just for my personal mantis information, so if you could help please do....

WM
WM,

Good question! In what tradition of Tanglangquan are you looking for the names? I have books on several and perhaps the names you are looking for could be there. OR...better yet...

Maybe there is someone here of your tradition who could help!

Now I am curious too.

Libingshao

[WhiteMonkey]

I study 7 star PM.........any help would be great

[libingshao]

WM,

I have a few of the WHF books. I will scan them for the poetic names. As others have said they arn't in most of the books but there are places that give some in either the name or the commentary as I recall.

Libingshao

[libingshao]

WM,

I have one volume #3 that has sets in the back. I found the following in a quick glance:

Cha Chui Quan Mvt.2 White Goose Opens Wings

Bai Yuan Chu Dong Mvt. Lone Wild Goose Leaves Flock


There may be more but hopefully others will offer what they have. I will look again later.

Libingshao

[K.Brazier]

The purpose of these eighteen methods are to introduce the student to the type of strikes used in the initial encounter.
They are mostly extracted from the Zhai Yao series.
You could say they are the most essential of the essential!

Becuase they are only a listing of names for the students to remember it is important that the student knows what moves the names represent.

I have often wondered if these moves were a part of what the 6 zhai yao forms were constructed from. With the information I have I do not know which came first this collection or the 6 forms.

Besides this list of 18 moves there are also similar lists of techniques with names such

Counterattacking without blocking. It is a list of moves which don't rely on blocks or defense.

Substituting blocks for strikes.
A list of moves which the block and the strike are the same, or almost the same.

While lists such as these are not all inclusive they are excellent ways for students to convert techniques and moves into principals.

Also these lists act as good mental hooks to "hang" the different methods of fighting.

Especially since there are lists with "grabs", "throws"
"hair grabs" etc..

What follows are a few of the interesting names that most people will be able to understand irrespective of style.


1. First apply the jade ring step.

2. backhand diagonal dividing coiling elbow.

3. Lightening palm and thunderclap hand.
The thunder clap hand is one way to do the clubbing strike. First comes a strike of lightening followed by a clap of thunder.

4. Interconnected breaking punch.
This is also the one step three punches drill. In one step three punches the student learnshow to connect their straight punches. The solo drill must first be perected as there is a tendancy to “punch with the elbow” which must be eliminated. This method can also be seen in the original 18 family

“I move my hands first attacking with a right (ke) strike.
My left fist does a breaking strike followed by the right fist.
Yin goes and yang returns(qu yin hui yang) continuously interconnecting.”


5. Entering with chin na. Zhang shou lei. Lightening palm.
Shiye Luan Xingfu taught Shifu to do the chin na move “old cow lays down” here.

9. Left and right taiji
This is the essential technique of breaking or defeating the central gate(po zhong men yao shou).

“Regardless if he attacks with a straight or diagonal hand. I use left and right taiji and cleave from top to bottom.”

Within explanations of Zhai Yao is said,

“Left and right two taiji. From top to bottom cleave the central line.
He attacks with his right and to my central gate.
I seal with the left and cleave with the right.
He leaks to the outer gate.
I hook with the right hand and close(bi) with the left. My right hand cleaves from his face to the bottom.”

14. Defeating weaver’s shuttle.
There is the soft and hard method for this.

“The hard defeating of weaver’s shuttle.
I attack with my right hand.
He applies weaver’s shuttle.
I turn my right palm along his face(yang zhang shun mian). My left hand divides his left elbow. My right palm strikes his left shoulder.
The soft defeating of weaver’s shuttle.
He applies weaver’s shuttle.
I go along with him and apply a right groin strike in the rear mountain climbing posture.
Or, I adhere to his hand, hook down(nian shou gou xia) and apply the weaver’s shuttle.”

16. Grasping hand enter with chin na. Immortal takes the hair.
For the solo version we can simply follow the end of first Zhai Yao.
Here is the other way to apply it,

“Application of the adhering method.
His right hand firmly grasps my right hand or neck.
I seal with the left and do right bumping elbow(zhuang) to bend his fingers.
I swiftly apply the right inner forearm(ge zhou) and strike his neck.
He blocks my elbow.
Then I can do left seal right planting elbow. The head of my fist faces down and I apply inner forearm elbow to his chest.”

17. Yin strikes yang overturns. Yang strikes yin overturns.
The first yin strike is a low or middle level punch. As soon as the opponent makes any reaction the hand flips up for a backhand strike.
The second one starts with a backhand and chops down to the ribs or thigh.

On the vid clips that Jake posted of his shifu you can see Hu Laoshi use this to distract Jake before he applies his "finishing" move.

18. Mandarin duck kick cleaving smashing hand.
This can be found in the two man form Mantis Hands.

Usually the backfist is followed by the kick. But this is practically the opposite. It is the way to start, as opposed to the way to escape.

Kevin

[WhiteMonkey]

Thank you, everyone thats some great stuff....

keep it coming....

WM

[libingshao]

WM,

I have no idea if this relates. But it is my understanding that HK 7* has Meihua in it. So, perhaos this would be of interest...

1st Zhaiyao, WHF book, movement 21 and 22 are called "white stork spreads wings" in Taijimeihua Tanglangquan. I saw this and was surprised that it has this parallel. BUT if you take your names from mainland 7* I don't know if it applies.

Perhaps Young Mantis could tell us if it applies. It would be an interesting parallel and confirm a lot of things. LKW states that HK 7* does not have Meihua in it, (in his new book). Though this would not disprove the assertion, it would be interesting.

Libingshao

[bungbukuen]

I do not study Mei Hua, but I have heard that there is some or even considerable cross over between Mei Hua and Seven Star. Not necessarily similarities in forms, or even names of techniques, but in the actual physical techniques themselves and what not. I am sure there are a few people out there who have studied both who could comment on this.

I could be wrong but I get the impression some people believe these Similarities are the result of intra school exchanges or mixing that occurred within the last few generations of teachers. For example when people say that Hong Kong 7* Mantis has Mei Hua in it, they are saying that the similarities arose only within the last 75 years or so.

Of course I could never verify this one way or the other, but my gut feeling is that it is the opposite.

Wouldn’t the similarities between 7* and Meihua (not just HK 7*) have much more to do with the simple fact that both systems are close cousins with the same roots. Both are Mantis, both use to be just one Mantis, and both are from Shandong. Even before its inception there was already long history of MA development in Shandong with some probable trends already taking shape. The foundation of techniques that we find common in both 7*, Meihua, adn even Liu He today probably already pre-existed during the earlier developmental proto type phases of Mantis. IMO this would be the better common sense explanation.

What exactly did LKW write in his book about Mei Hua? Would be interesting.

Just my two American cents - which by the way is not worth as much as it use to be! Any thoughts?

[libingshao]

BBK,

I think you are right. There are common origins, stories of exchanges between masters and stories of entire sets being adopted by different styles of Tanglangquan. For example, Meihua Lu Quan, (plum flower road), was, as I was told, adopted by Seven Star from Jiang Hualong of Meihua Tanglangquan.

I don't have LKW's book myself but I have read exerpts on the internet.

Historian Hon chiu-wong and from others quoting Wong Hon-Fun say that:

Lu Guangyu called his school Tanglang Men. (School of mantis boxing) not Seven Star.

His school was a mix of 7*, Meihua and Guang Bang, (shiney board)

That there were three Meihua sets and that master luo intended them to function as Zhai Yao so that you had three more making a total of six Zhaiyao. (just what I have read, if someone knows better please don't be offended if I misrepresent a position). As I understand it, Hon chiu-wong maintains he has many historical documents to support this position.

What I saw from LKW was that:

Master Luo called his school 7*
There are Five Plum Flower sets like the petals of the flower and only the inheritor of the style got all five. There are no historical documents offered for this position.

Anyway that is what I have read/ heard. Anybody knowing more can help out I am sure.

Libingshao

[Young Mantis]

WM,

I have no idea if this relates. But it is my understanding that HK 7* has Meihua in it. So, perhaos this would be of interest...

1st Zhaiyao, WHF book, movement 21 and 22 are called "white stork spreads wings" in Taijimeihua Tanglangquan. I saw this and was surprised that it has this parallel. BUT if you take your names from mainland 7* I don't know if it applies.

Perhaps Young Mantis could tell us if it applies. It would be an interesting parallel and confirm a lot of things. LKW states that HK 7* does not have Meihua in it, (in his new book). Though this would not disprove the assertion, it would be interesting.

Libingshao

LBS,
Just to clarify, in his book on Essential #1, WHF lists #21 as "left spreads wings kick". There is no mention of "white stork" in either the title of the movement nor the explanation although the hand movement is the same as the beginning of Tchahp Tchui which we do call "White Goose spreads wings". #22 is a completely different move that does not relate to the spreading of wings imagery.

WM,
There are many of these names strewn about throughout the forms. For example in the form Bung Bo, some of the names are:

Snatching the pearl from the bottom of the sea
praying mantis catches the cicada
snatching the treasure from behind the back
strong tyrant invites guest

I agree that sometimes the classical name of a movement may give inspiration to how it should be played but it really depends on how one interprets or perceives the names. Two people might read the same name differently and often the names can be difficult to translate accurately.

For the most part, when we call out the forms in class, we use the standardized nomenclature passed down by WHF but when we practice our sahn sau, we learn the classical names for each technique passed down by both WHF and late GM Chiu Chuk Kai of TJPM.

In regards to the "Mui Fah" sets in Northern Praying Mantis, they are commonly referred to collectively as "Sahm Fah Sau" - Three Flower Hands. WHF mentions this briefly in his introduction for book #7 - Mui Fah Kuen. I cannot vouch for other lineages and someone please correct me if I am wrong but I believe only the CCM lineage claims to have 5 plum flower forms.


Vance

[libingshao]

LBS,
Just to clarify, in his book on Essential #1, WHF lists #21 as "left spreads wings kick". There is no mention of "white stork" in either the title of the movement nor the explanation although the hand movement is the same as the beginning of Tchahp Tchui which we do call "White Goose spreads wings". #22 is a completely different move that does not relate to the spreading of wings imagery.

Vance

YM,

Yes, as I stated in my post, I was noting that the name of the movement was called White Stork Spreads Wings in Taijimeihua Tanglangquan. Also as I said, I have no idea if the name is the same in 7* or not.

As Dennis Prager says, "I prefer clarity to agreement".

Thank you for taking the time to address my post.

Libingshao

[bungbukuen]

Get ready guys, this is a big post. I do not mean to high jack this thread, but I wanted to bring up an issue related to NAME differences and the obvious confusion they can casue.


What Issue
Specifically about the naming of the six Zhai Yao sets under the LGY lineage families and the Plum Blossom sets (#4, #5, and #6) within the Chiu Chi Man family lineage. In reality this should not be an issue, but the different names and what not seem to have created some confusion.


First Some Background:
1) LKW writes very clearly in his forms lists that they have three Zhai Yao sets. I do not know what other more senior students from Chiu Chi Man write. I leave it open here for their feedback. Lee Kam Wing also very clearly says that they have five plumb blossom sets – Mei Hua (MH) Lu, MH Quan, MH Shou, MH Zhang, MH Tui One, & two. Actually it is six if you count MH Tui one and two separately. (http://www.hokiu.com/forms.html)

2) A larger number of LGY’s other students appear to have at least 6 Zhai Yao sets. They also have three Plum Blossom sets (MH Lu, MH Quan, MH Shou). Students like WHF had these sets. I also suspect famous students such as Wong Kam Hung and others also had these. Can we get confirmation on this? Even LGYs kung fu brothers like Yang Wei Xin and Li Jin Shan for example had at least six Zhai Yao sets. WHF Forms List (http://users.aol.com/beishaolin/qixing.html)


Million Dollar Question:
Why would the Chiu Chi Man lineage be short three Zhai Yao forms, and possess three more Mei Hua forms? It is just too much of a coincidence that adds up pefrectly.


A Few Different Conclusions:
1) Some people from “background #1” conclude that LGY only had three Zhai Yao sets. They also bridge the gap explaining that LGY supplemented the other missing three Zhai Yao sets with Mei Hua Zhang, Mei Hua Tui Yi Lu, and Mei Hua Tui Er Lu. This is possible but it does nto seem to fit with the other camps.

2) Others from “background #2” conclude that LGY did in fact teach six Zhai Yao sets and three plumb blossom sets. They also bridge the gap by explaining that LGY created additional names for the fourth, fifth, and sixth Zhai Yao forms. Namely MH Zhang, Yi Lu MH Tui, and Er Lu MH Tui. Thsi is much more plausible but contradicts the Chiu Chi Man lineage...or does it?


What is really happening?
1. From my own perspective at least it appears obvious that the overwhelming majority of LGY’s students taught six Zhai Yao sets and three Mei Hua forms. LGY obviously must have taught six Zhai Yao sets and three Mei Hua sets.

2. More importantly from what I have heard from a select number of teachers and students who have studied from both CCM and WHF lineages alike is that the fourth, fifth, and sixth Zhai Yao sets taught by LGYs students such as WHF are near identical to the fourth, fifth, and sixth Mei Hua forms taught by Lee Kam Wing.

3. In actuality the Chiu Chi Man lineage just might in fact also have six Zhai Yao sets, but simply prefer to refer to the last three Zhai Yai sets as Mei Hua (Zhang, Tui Yi Lu, and Tui Er Lu). Please forgive me if this seems out line or rude. It is not meant to be. I also remember reading somewhere from another school or something that LGY for whatever reaons decided to add another layer of names to the last three Zhai Yao sets. This seems to make sense and seems more probable than saying LGY missed out on three Zhai Yao sets and decided to make up three altogether new ones.

Anyway I think this is just one example of how different names and what not can cause a lot of unnecessary confusion.