weight training frequency. how much?

[n.mitch]

There is a lot of conflict out there as to how many times you should train a body part per week. Some say you should train each body part twice a week e.g chest monday and friday while others say that can leed to overtraining that you should only train body parts once a week.
currently i train body parts once e.g chest and tri on mondays. back and biceps on wed, shoulders and deltoids on fri and legs on saturday some times i add extra small chest work out on fri with my shoulder work out.
I have tried training twice a week program for each muscle group but didnt notice any gains.
But i never get big any way.
What do others find the best and do you notice much difference?

[manofkent]

Nobody can say a sure time for you. Cos no body other than you can tell when your, muscles are ready and healed from your last workout.

I dont know how hard you work out or what hurts the next day.

If you train light then 48hrs is fine. Somtimes when I Isolate a muscle and work it hard in one session it will ache for 5-6days. so you see I can train the muscle twice a week, but not on a 7 day routien.

This may sound strange but I dont think "programs" are a good idea.

Just go to the gym every 2days, or 2 out of three days and pick a workout that suits you on that day. sometimes I'll work out 5-6times in one week, sometimes its 2. Dont try doing 1 particular muscle group on a particular day, cos you'll just end up over training or undertraining.

[Chief Fox]

Doing the standard break down of body parts and muscle group routine is really more of a body building routine than a functional fitness type routine in my opinion.

Those routines are designed to severly break down a muscle group to promote maximum muscle growth. Maximum muscle growth does turn into strength but it doesn't necessarlly turn into functional strength. ie. make you a better martial artist.

I'd recommend a program like the crossfit workout (http://www.crossfit.com). This program is based soley on functional fitness, speed and power. I'd say that it combines perfectly with martial arts training. At first, the workout is very taxing and you are completely wiped out but soon your body adapts and you can train both crossfit and martial arts in the same day. The workouts are extremely hard so they also benefit your mental toughness as well. That's how it has worked for me anyway.

Try out the workout for 2 weeks and you'll see what I mean. Check it out.

[fa_jing]

The once a week training thing is for bodybuilding only. For functional strength training with weights, you want to do something like I do. I work out every 3 days, always working the whole body. Emphasizing Squat, Deadlift, Bench, Power clean, overhead press, and rows or chins. Throw in biceps, calves, and ab work at the end if you like. Lots of sets but keep reps between 3-7 so that you don't lose concentration. Sometimes emphasize volume and sometimes intensity (lifting close to your max for a given rep range). Never go to failure in an exercise more than once a week. Hope that helps

[IronFist]

If you do high volume you'll have to wait longer between training sessions.

If you do lower volume you can train more often.

Some powerlifters train with high weights and low reps and a few sets and train the same lift almost every day.

Some bodybuilders train high volume for each muscle group with many reps and sets and they can only do it once a week.

[1renox]

Ditto on what other guys said--and some more advice.

If your not a professional athlete, or don't have lots of free time, I'd suggest you not stick to the 2 body parts per week program. No need to read the rest of this post if you do have lots of free time on your hands. Heck you could even do 3-4X per week then.(oh, to dream such a dream!)

But--in practice (for us poor working sods, that is), the frequency depends upon, among other things, personal time constraints.

If I plan to train ( lift) 2X per week, but miss one work out every week due to job, school, family, lack of facilities, etc, the exercise program will NOT be effective because probably the most important principles for any type of training are;

a. consistency. Consistancy means working the body part regulary--that is peforming the same exercise ( or approximatyelty the same one) each session. You are trying to get the muscle to adapt.

b. overload. Over load meaning being able to improve. [ By increasing weight or sets/reps or both]

W/o a consistent program, that fits your realistic time schedule, you will go nowhere. For example, flies will help your bench press wieghts, but flies alone will not make the bench press wieghts increase. If you don't have time to do flies and bench press, then stick only with bench press. Variety does help, but that's another topic.

W/o a frequency that allows for overload, you will go nowhere. For improvement, there must be a period of recovery. But, wait too long and the benfit is dimished. After about 8 days, the training effect of the last workout has been lost.

As another post suggested--don't stick to any "program". Instead, use a frequency that realistically works for you and allows for consistency and improvement. 2X per week is a good guideline, but it's only a guideline.

Here is what works for me. This is much less than optimal. I can make slow gains and complete it w/o causing much conflict with other commitments.

Full body workout every 2 to 3 days, 4 to 5 sets, 2 to 4 exercises per muscle/group. Run/aerobics every 2 to 3 days. Will do lifts/ aerobics same day (a.m. vs. p.m) or one after the other if missed one of the previous days to fit it all in. Almost always rest Sunday (church, family), sometimes full body work out. Never > 4 days recovery between any activity. Will lift/run even if not recoverd so can fit it all in. On occasion, if a rest days comes up about 30 mins worth of power lifts. Will take time off if feeling overtrained. Take 5 days off every 10 weeks and start a new cycle.

[Sifu Darkfist]

i like as much as time allows but i always jump rope or so fast martial arts in between sets, and lots of finger push ups for good grip or mantis claws

[manofkent]

The once a week training thing is for bodybuilding only.

That is absolute Cr*p. I train 2 in 3 days Using mainly isolation exersises, working each muscle once every 6-8 days.

Its not just for body building, this is the fastest way to build strength. I understand what ppl are saying, "its not practical strength" What they mean is, The new muscle may restrict movement and slow me down. This may be true, But it just mean you must train and strech more.

You dont train fast kicking and internal forms at the same time. Just think of flexibility and strength training as two diffrent parts of your training

[n.mitch]

I know what you mean by not having time thats one of the main reason i do muscle group splits as opposed to doing total body work outs.
by doing splits your only in the gym around 30mins or so and thats doing around 12sets per body part 4different exercises* 3 sets as opposed to full body workouts that take 1hour 30mins or more doing only 9sets or less per body part.
I agree that if you train full body 2or 3 per week you will get fitter than splits but you should be getting fitter training MA, splits give you more time to do that and i find less fatiging and i think you get just as strong.
Its just there is so many ppl on both sides e.g skip la cour trains only 1 per week(muscle group) where as keven levern and others train twice (and he is on the gas ) as opposed to la cour.
Its good to get some mortals opinions lmao.

[manofkent]

The problem is that your metabolism can't prosses enough protien to cope with you doing a full dody workout. It can only heal 30% of your muscles, so If you do a full body workout 3times a week, your loosing out of 70% of your potential.

If your going to do 3 workouts a week you'll get stronger so mach faster to do this:- workout 1 - push = pecks, tris, delts
2 - pull = lats, traps, bis, core
3 - legs = hams, quads, gas, sol, glutes, tibs

this way you would heal properly and gain strength at a much faster pace.

I understand that some ppl just enjoy having a workout and dont do it for the gains in strength.

As for fittness, thats Crazy, you dont get fit and strong at the same time. All this body pump stuff is good, but if your serious you gotta seperate them. When "getting fit" your working your heart to make it stronger, But you need your heart to be at its best when lifting weights. If you do them at the same time your not gotta be able to lift as much cos you wont have the energy.

If you want to get fit then run, swim, box, skip do whatever you want but keep it seperate from your weight training cos they will both hinder the others potential.

[Sifu Darkfist]

Ive got news for you guys, the body remembers. if you concentrate on slow movements for extended periods without snapping into high speed moves in between you might increase strength for lifting weights but most of us dont have that as the end goal. do lots of slow moves and you will slow down gradually because you are training muscle memory into those slow powerful moves.

Fighting is very anaerobic, so exahusting the lungs and heart with a burst of technique or jump rope then grabbing heavy weights and busting out a set simulates the rigors of the fight. say what you will about recovery, but training one hundred to one thousand punches a day every day is much better for the fighter (not the fr eaking body builder)
i do agree on the split of body parts entirely

Since my school is at a full service gym i have seen true results of this type of training.

remember though to each his own.

[Finny]

Got some news for you, Sifu Darkfist - the body DOESN'T rememer, the brain does.

[manofkent]

I dont think going slow would help too much, if at all. And even if it did, your time would be much better spent actually lifting weights, or training and streching.

I just explane something about lifting heavy...

You only ever have x amount of muscle fibers, lets just say its 100 to make it easy. the muscle fibers only work On, or Off, there is no in between.

When you lift your arm u'll use 10 fibers. When you lift a brick you use 50 fibers, and when you lift the full max your using every fiber in your body.

So you see, if you do 50 pushups your not using the whole muscle. By lifting weights you can gain your full potential.

I do know what I'm talking about, My girlfriend is a level 3 NVQ Gym instructer and my best mate has a BA in Gym Based Exersise. And im double checking this against there book before I post.

[bodhitree]

Everyones body is a bit different, but basically I feel the best i ever have with what i do now. I only take two days off of lifting a week. I normally start off after a brief warmup with some dynamic lifts of plyos. After that i do a little of targeting a certain area in my body, normally mixed up with some core and isometric exercises. After this, given the time i will try to do some cardio immediately after, if not possible, later in the day i'll do some interval cardio.

I'm not saying this program is good for anyone but me, but i feel great, and i feel i'm gaining stength and speed.

[manofkent]

Thats a fairly good.

cardio is really important after weight training cos you need a the blood to surge round your muscles to wash away the lactic acid witch is a bi-product of ATP energy. If you dont you'll end up getting knots in you muscles and it will tickle like hell when you get a massage!!!

[Chief Fox]

I don't like the standard break down of body parts routines for a few reasons.
1. yes they do build strength but like I said, not functional strength. Take the bench press for example: How is this motion useful in any sport? Where in sport or life for that matter do you have a slow controlled pushing movement? You don't. You have explosive movements.

2. The body break down workouts take too darn long. I've done them before and have seen guys in the gym doing them. I'd say average time is 45 minutes to 2 hours. That's too long and s....l....o....w. Also, most of these guys chat with their buddies most of the time.

3. Isolated strength movements don't exist in sport or life. So why practice them in the gym? Where on earth am I going to use the motion of a bicep curl? The only purpose for this exercise is to increase the size of the muscle so you can look good on the beach. Lame!

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that a full body routine 3 days a week is good either. What I am saying is full body motion is good.

What are good exercises?
1. Pushups are great
2. Pullups are great. When you do kipping pullups it turns into a full body motion. Great for you core.
3. body weight squats for speed.
4. box jumps.
5. All Olympic lifts are awesome.
6. Many more non traditional exercises.

All of you guys should try out the crossfit work out. It's awesome.

[bodhitree]

before i did a lot of cardio i was always ticklish when getting massage, I still can't get my legs massaged. Any rough massage, and i'm squirmin. Sucks.

[manofkent]

1. yes they do build strength but like I said, not functional strength. Take the bench press for example: How is this motion useful in any sport? .

Thats pretty funny! How is a bench press useful in MA!!!! Whats the most basic thing you could do??? and the 1st thing ppl think of in martial arts? what do you do 1000 times a day?

are you ready? ..... Punching you T*at! Your pecks are responsible for moving ur arms forward and your triceps straighten your arm. Plus the position you are in at the end of your bench press is the strongest position your arm can make to take an inward force. maybe at some point you may even find the strenght usefull for getting off the floor quickly, or pushing someone or something.



2. The body break down workouts take too darn long. I'd say average time is 45 minutes to 2 hours.
.


No one should spend anymore than 1hr lifting heavy weights you body cant take the healing even if you can take the pace. and if you can go more than 1 hr youve not been training hard enough.

thats hardly too slow if your serious about it. You dont pay for your kung fu class and say that 45mins is too slow and your board, do you?




3. Isolated strength movements don't exist in sport or life. So why practice them in the gym? Where on earth am I going to use the motion of a bicep curl?.

Your so dumb its getting me down. You wouldnt use a bicep curl in many sports, but a stronger bicep gives you more pulling power. Climbing - grapling - hook punch - carrying the shopping. Plus when you lift weight you are strengthening you core muscles(there the ones all round your mid-section, not just abs!!!). the stronger your core musles, the more they support your spine and the less chance you'll get of having a bad back later in life.

[manofkent]

Bodhitree - I was the same.
Best thing is to have a massive massive leg workout, it loosens up the musscle and gets it really warm, then go right in for your massage and ask her (him if your unlucky) to do you legs 1st.

I had the same problem, but it so much better after a couple of massages.

[FooFighter]

n.mitch,

In CST's perspective, we do not isolate muscles into a specific group for specific training. However if you want to train muscles into groups and discuss when and how to do so will be than you want to discuss this with those who have the paradigm of bodybuilding and perhaps powerlifting? In the body building community, there is two schools of thoughts: more is better and less is more. Intensity, progressive loading, and volume will vary according your psychological temperament, genetic make up, past experience, and present specific goals. What works best for me in putting on size and strength is doing a double density program using my 45lb Clubbell bruiser. I am doing the ABC program: http://clubbell.tv/abc.html. I do not do specific isolated exercises, but I am adding "size" evenly all over by using my Bruiser. I have noticed that the principles of ABC and the attritubes have developed through CST has also increased my martial arts ability as well.

One in CST,
Bao

[fa_jing]

Don't call people stupid and then misspell "Bored" as "board"

If training once a week was the fastest path to strength, then Olympic weightlifters and powerlifters would train once a week. They don't, though. They train their "bodyparts" two or three times a week.

Also, I believe I am being misquoted as training 3 times a week, when what I said is that I train the whole body every 3 days in general. You can do more or less though.

[MasterKiller]

Where on earth am I going to use the motion of a bicep curl? .

If you have ever tried to fight off being armbarred, you wouldn't ask that question. ;)

[bodhitree]

yes indeed MK

[Chief Fox]

Thats pretty funny! How is a bench press useful in MA!!!! Whats the most basic thing you could do??? and the 1st thing ppl think of in martial arts? what do you do 1000 times a day?

are you ready? ..... Punching you T*at! Your pecks are responsible for moving ur arms forward and your triceps straighten your arm. Plus the position you are in at the end of your bench press is the strongest position your arm can make to take an inward force. maybe at some point you may even find the strenght usefull for getting off the floor quickly, or pushing someone or something.

Yep, was pretty much expecting responses like this. So your saying that the isolated movement of the bench press helps you be a better puncher. Hmmm, lets think about this. Yes they are similar motions BUT and THIS IS HUGE they are not the same mechanics. Question for you: Where does punching power come from? Come on, your supposed to be a martial artist. Where does punching power come from? FROM YOUR HIP! Not your pecs.

As far as using the muscles to get yourself up off the floor goes. HMMMMM, sounds alot like a push up. Why not do those. Pushing someone, sorry, wrong again, that's a full body movement just like a punch.



No one should spend anymore than 1hr lifting heavy weights you body cant take the healing even if you can take the pace. and if you can go more than 1 hr youve not been training hard enough.

thats hardly too slow if your serious about it. You dont pay for your kung fu class and say that 45mins is too slow and your board, do you?

Serious about what becoming a ballooned up body builder? Body building training and martial arts training are hardly the same thing.




Your so dumb its getting me down. You wouldnt use a bicep curl in many sports, but a stronger bicep gives you more pulling power. Climbing - grapling - hook punch - carrying the shopping. Plus when you lift weight you are strengthening you core muscles(there the ones all round your mid-section, not just abs!!!). the stronger your core musles, the more they support your spine and the less chance you'll get of having a bad back later in life.
So you do bicep curls to strengthen your core? Ok. A much better exercise would be chin ups or pullups.

Have fun flexing in front of the mirror.

[Chief Fox]

If you have ever tried to fight off being armbarred, you wouldn't ask that question. ;)
I respect that. But I would argue that many more muscles come into play.

The point I'm trying to make (and maybe I didn't do a very good job) is compound exercises or functional exercises are better for what we do as martial artists. Isolation exercises are designed for body builders simply to increase mass.

I see a body builder and I think, wow that guy is huge, or that guy is ripped. BUT how many pullups can he do? How many handstand pushups can he do? How much can he clean or snatch. These are all functional strength exercises and we, as martial artists require functional strength.

[manofkent]

Yep, was pretty much expecting responses like this. So your saying that the isolated movement of the bench press helps you be a better puncher. Hmmm, lets think about this. Yes they are similar motions BUT and THIS IS HUGE they are not the same mechanics. Question for you: Where does punching power come from? Come on, your supposed to be a martial artist. Where does punching power come from? FROM YOUR HIP! Not your pecs.

Boxers weight train. Of course the punch come from the hip. in a perfect world we would all have a perfect punch and split the bag everytime from our iron fist. But I've only been training for 12 yrs and I felt that weight training was a great way to improve my martial arts. After 2 yrs my punching power has improved by a hell of a lot.

I'm not just making this stuff up, this is all from experiance and knowlege of the ppl around me. I have followed many diffrent programs and been used as a guinnea pig for my mate who is doing a BA in Gym based exersise. and my girlfriend is a gym instructer (NVQ lev3)





Serious about what becoming a ballooned up body builder? Body building training and martial arts training are hardly the same thing..
I know, thats what im saying... You should keep training seperate.




So you do bicep curls to strengthen your core? .
Yes, standing bicep curls on a wobble bored. It improves stability and the contant tention on you upper body keeps your core working. You really should know better as a martial artist.

Working for mass or strength comes from the type of lifting you do and your diet (roids) not how many times a week you train. Power lifting is very complex and many of them do train every day, but this is only when they practise the actual lift, they will do 1 or 2 lifts, and thats them done for the day. on days where they are training for strength they will have rest days after.

I agree with what Chief fox is saying about body builders. But thats kind of my point, It can work very much in your favour if you are stronger. Massive bulk will slow you down a lot, but honestly you cant get that big without steriods. If you look at a super heavy weight boxer, thats about as big as any human could get without roids.

Being stronger helps in everyday life, apart from the basics, if you have a strong core section, your much less likely to get back problems later in life.

[manofkent]

Sorry I forgot to add.

Chief fox asked how many pull ups body builder can do and other things. You made your point about body builders. But im not a bodybuilder and I dont think a bodybuilder would be able to be a good martial artist. Im saying that strength training will help any bodys martial art. Even if its just being able to stand in wide stances without loosing good form.

[FooFighter]

Chief fox,

Do not waste your time explaining yourself. Some people just do not get it. "Bodybuilding" is not the great mean to optimal performance for sports or martial arts. The breathing, movement, and structure skills of bodybuilding is totally opposite to the skills of sports and the MAs.

Bao

[manofkent]

Im not defending body building.
Im saying that weight training is benificial to martial arts.

Check out "the science of martial arts training"

and answer my question... If boxers and UFC guys weight train, witch they do, why do you think it wont help in kung fu.

Body building and weight training are very diffrent from eachother by the way.

[FooFighter]

Charles I. Staley, author of "The science of martial arts training" is a great S&C coach and writer but he is not a martial artist. I have read his book, but gain very little from it. Maybe because of my background and experience. It was repeated information about periodization and logical progression skill development. Anyway, his paradigm of training is does not match the paradigm of martial artists in my opinion when I read his book. So his book tells you very little how to improve your MA game. I do not hate the book, but the author is not a martial artist. He is simply an expert in strength conditioning. I am not against strength and conditioning for martial arts, but I disagree in some of the approaches use for martial arts training such as preacher curls for defense against arm bars. LOL.

Bao

[manofkent]

So you are agreeing with what im saying then?

cos Chief fox seems to think that strength training and conditioning your body is bad for your martial art.

I know being stronger is not gonna help with "blocking" attacks, but it does make other things easyer.

[bodhitree]

A lot of martial arts skills require strength. Grappling, blocking shots/takedowns.
everyone has a different approach though, what ever is right for them they can do

[Chief Fox]

So you are agreeing with what im saying then?

cos Chief fox seems to think that strength training and conditioning your body is bad for your martial art.

I know being stronger is not gonna help with "blocking" attacks, but it does make other things easyer.
I think we are on the same track but because we are on an internet discussion board we are maybe not seeing eye to eye.

I am all for strength training. I strength train in one form or another 5 or 6 days a week.

I am not in favor of the typical break the workout down by body part with isolation exercises routine. This, I feel, is more of a body building workout. IMO a body building workout is NOT the optimum strength training routine for anyone involved in martial arts.

I think that functional exercises are better for martial arts. Examples of the functional exercises would be , the crossfit workout, clubbell work, kettlebell work, olympic style lifts, plyometric work, and sprints. Stuff like that.

Body building is very popular right now. Thanks to programs like Body for Life and such. This type of workout is fine for a person who wants to look good in the mirror. But for people who are involved in sports, I believe that a body building routine is not best.

Just my opinion.

[FooFighter]

I think we are on the same track but because we are on an internet discussion board we are maybe not seeing eye to eye.

I am all for strength training. I strength train in one form or another 5 or 6 days a week.

I am not in favor of the typical break the workout down by body part with isolation exercises routine. This, I feel, is more of a body building workout. IMO a body building workout is NOT the optimum strength training routine for anyone involved in martial arts.

I think that functional exercises are better for martial arts. Examples of the functional exercises would be , the crossfit workout, clubbell work, kettlebell work, olympic style lifts, plyometric work, and sprints. Stuff like that.

Body building is very popular right now. Thanks to programs like Body for Life and such. This type of workout is fine for a person who wants to look good in the mirror. But for people who are involved in sports, I believe that a body building routine is not best.

Just my opinion.

I agree with your opinion.

[Trey]

Let me respond to all of you and say that, if you saw my lifting routine, you would probably say i was way overtraining (as most people do). Ill try to get it scanned for you guys just so you can flame on me.

I do have my weekly workout routine that I do when boxing (which i havent done in a few months because football just ended).

(Monday Wednesday, Friday)
Run 2-4 miles 4:30am
Eat Breakfast (one cup dry wheaties) 5:00am
shower, go to school 7:00am
eat one protein bar 8:00am
Eat one protein bar 11:00pm
Eat one protein bar 2:00pm
Go to the boxing gym 3:00-7:00pm
Warm up: stretches, 50pushups, jumping jacks, squat thrusts
Shadow box:5rounds 2 weighted
Heavy bag:3-4 rounds
Double end bag:3 rounds
Speed bag:3 rounds
Spar: 5-10 rounds
Cooldown: 1000-1500 situps, russian twists till failure, leg lifts, etc. etc., have someone throw a med ball at my stomach.
(one round is 3 minutes work one minute rest)
eat one protein bar 7:00
Go to other gym to lift 7:30-10:30
Dont feel like reciting the tons of different lifts i do. I focus on forearms alot more than most people do.
eat dinner (chicken fish shrimp etc. low fat high protein)10:45
Run for 30 minutes
sleep 11:30

(Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday)
same food schedule
No lifting
No boxing
on these days i do alot of cardio and abdominal work
lots of running and biking

(sunday) rest

I do get fruits and veggies...dont worry.

If anyone would like to see my lifting sched. just ask, its pretty good.

I do abs every day
3x15situp twists
3x15leg lifts
3x15kneedraws
3x15frog kicks
3x15side bends@60lbs
3x100 waist twists
I add more depending on what i feel like doing, but this is my minimum for abs everyday.

Ive been told that im overtraining and not getting enough sleep but ive been on this schedule for a while now and have more energy than ever. Cant argue with that!!!



This was posted on a boxing forum by me a while back. Im pretty new to martial arts, but have always been very interested and read alot, which is what i do with everything. I believe in making myself the best i can be no matter what sacrifices have to be made. So you say I overtrain, I say you dont train enough.

Also in my lifting sched. there is leg workouts, but for some reason or another, i never did them. So I am trying to focus on more legs now so i can build up a stronger base.

And wow looking back at this i cant believe i did so much....i realise im getting lazy. I need to get back into it. Dmn football... i dont think im playing next year, as id like to focus on fighting arts. Something that is actually useful

[Trey]

Ive got news for you guys, the body remembers. if you concentrate on slow movements for extended periods without snapping into high speed moves in between you might increase strength for lifting weights but most of us dont have that as the end goal. do lots of slow moves and you will slow down gradually because you are training muscle memory into those slow powerful moves.

Fighting is very anaerobic, so exahusting the lungs and heart with a burst of technique or jump rope then grabbing heavy weights and busting out a set simulates the rigors of the fight. say what you will about recovery, but training one hundred to one thousand punches a day every day is much better for the fighter (not the fr eaking body builder)
i do agree on the split of body parts entirely

Since my school is at a full service gym i have seen true results of this type of training.

remember though to each his own.



Im going to have to agree with darkfist on this one, and heres why.

The average person has approximately 60 percent fast muscle fiber and 40 percent slow-twitch fiber (type I). There can be swings in fiber composition, but basically, we all have three types of muscle fiber that need to be trained.

The fast-twitch muscle actually has two types of fiber, fast and super fast. The fast muscle (what the researchers call IIa) moves 5 times faster than the slow muscle, and the super-fast (called IIx) moves 10 times faster than the slow muscle fiber.

Sprinters have higher percentages of the super-fast (IIx). Endurance trained individuals have more slow muscle fiber (type I).

While we are born with slightly different muscle composition, the point is, super fast muscle can be developed if exercised properly. And fast-muscle fiber should be developed because this type of muscle opens a new world of benefits from anaerobic sprinting types of exercise.

Researchers show that anaerobic exercise (short, quick-burst, that get you winded fast) is the type of fitness training that increases exercise-induced growth hormone. And growth hormone is, the most powerful body fat-reducing, muscle-toning, anti-aging agent known in science.

Without getting too technical, these different muscle fibers, obviously respond differently in accordance to the way you train them. Therefor they in essence 'remember' What they need to do in order to complete a task more efficiently the next time it needs to be done.

[Trey]

Oh, i almost forgot, the above post was based on memory alone, so if you guys want to check up on it and see if what i said is right, go ahead. I dont exactly have the time or will to check my answers.

[n.mitch]

People who have good genitices have more fast twitch fibers dont they?
people who are hard gainers have more slow twitch fibers.
Trey you must be 1 fit dude with that routine. wow
do you have trouble bulking up with all that cardio?
You go to school as well, you must have a good after school job to be able to afford all the protein bars lol.
hope you dont burn your self out .
good luck with the ma training do you think you can fit it in? lol

[Trey]

People who have good genitices have more fast twitch fibers dont they?
people who are hard gainers have more slow twitch fibers.
Trey you must be 1 fit dude with that routine. wow
do you have trouble bulking up with all that cardio?
You go to school as well, you must have a good after school job to be able to afford all the protein bars lol.
hope you dont burn your self out .
good luck with the ma training do you think you can fit it in? lol

To your first question, i believe i said that the amounts of different muscle fiber can vary from person to person.

Well there is a pic of me on my sig you can judge if im fit for yourself lol.

I do not want to bulk up, i want to stay lean and fast, not big and bulky.

I just got a job this week actually. I only work saturday and sunday mornings.

Ill definately have time for MA. I love it so much, more so than boxing.

[Toby]

Some powerlifters train with high weights and low reps and a few sets and train the same lift almost every day.I like this IronFist character. He knows what he's talking about ;).

[IronFist]

^ Cheers, mate.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

I'd recommend a program like the crossfit workout (http://www.crossfit.com. Check it out.

this looks like exactly what i have been looking for.

would you mind tossing me a little more info via reply, pm, email (gunneddownatrocity@gmail.com) before i throw down 20 bucks on it? like what you typically do in a week or something. i understand it says routine is the enemy, but theres got to be some standard to fit around time constraints and what not even if the activities are always changing. i just didnt see any way of measuring your progression on the site ... im assuming thats what they want you to subscribe to the journal for.

[Merryprankster]

Trey, you're not over training. You have rest or active rest four days a week.

Gotta tell you that the sleep thing is going to catch up with you though. It's not going to happen today or tomorrow - it's a gradual wearing down thing.

For the record, if you are doing a ton of different lifts in the gym, you aren't using your time wisely. I don't doubt your dedication or your conditioning - I'm just telling you that there are better ways to get your lifting done - and that will also yield more benefits.

Focus on total body lifts and compound movements. You'll get much stronger, faster, and in ways that are better for what you do.

Just my two cents.

[Trey]

Good advice merryprankster, and i must agree with you. I do perform compound and olympic type lifts, and I do realize how important these are for overall strength and muscle stability, (especially in the core).

[Merryprankster]

Trey, then my apologies.

Oly and compound lifts take so much out of you that I made an assumption that if you are doing a lot of different exercises then you must be doing bodybuilding style splits.

[Trey]

No apology needed. I usually tend to do those types of exercises at the end or toward the end of a work out.

[SevenStar]

Let me respond to all of you and say that, if you saw my lifting routine, you would probably say i was way overtraining (as most people do). Ill try to get it scanned for you guys just so you can flame on me.

I do have my weekly workout routine that I do when boxing (which i havent done in a few months because football just ended).

(Monday Wednesday, Friday)
Run 2-4 miles 4:30am
Eat Breakfast (one cup dry wheaties) 5:00am
shower, go to school 7:00am
eat one protein bar 8:00am
Eat one protein bar 11:00pm
Eat one protein bar 2:00pm
Go to the boxing gym 3:00-7:00pm
Warm up: stretches, 50pushups, jumping jacks, squat thrusts
Shadow box:5rounds 2 weighted
Heavy bag:3-4 rounds
Double end bag:3 rounds
Speed bag:3 rounds
Spar: 5-10 rounds
Cooldown: 1000-1500 situps, russian twists till failure, leg lifts, etc. etc., have someone throw a med ball at my stomach.
(one round is 3 minutes work one minute rest)
eat one protein bar 7:00
Go to other gym to lift 7:30-10:30
Dont feel like reciting the tons of different lifts i do. I focus on forearms alot more than most people do.
eat dinner (chicken fish shrimp etc. low fat high protein)10:45
Run for 30 minutes
sleep 11:30

(Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday)
same food schedule
No lifting
No boxing
on these days i do alot of cardio and abdominal work
lots of running and biking

(sunday) rest

I do get fruits and veggies...dont worry.

If anyone would like to see my lifting sched. just ask, its pretty good.

I do abs every day
3x15situp twists
3x15leg lifts
3x15kneedraws
3x15frog kicks
3x15side bends@60lbs
3x100 waist twists
I add more depending on what i feel like doing, but this is my minimum for abs everyday.

Ive been told that im overtraining and not getting enough sleep but ive been on this schedule for a while now and have more energy than ever. Cant argue with that!!!



This was posted on a boxing forum by me a while back. Im pretty new to martial arts, but have always been very interested and read alot, which is what i do with everything. I believe in making myself the best i can be no matter what sacrifices have to be made. So you say I overtrain, I say you dont train enough.

Also in my lifting sched. there is leg workouts, but for some reason or another, i never did them. So I am trying to focus on more legs now so i can build up a stronger base.

And wow looking back at this i cant believe i did so much....i realise im getting lazy. I need to get back into it. Dmn football... i dont think im playing next year, as id like to focus on fighting arts. Something that is actually useful

Haven't read all of this thread yet, but this is not overtraining at all.

[Samurai Jack]

Lifting for three hours per workout, three days per week is overtraining. Unless you want to stay skinny... or use streoids... but in either case you could still make your workout more efficent, and get better results, by training less.

But then you know this.

;)

[Ford Prefect]

Touch to say if it's overtraining. The weight training would certainly be an x factor to push you over the edge as would lack of sleep.

[wind draft]

yeah tell Bruce Lee or other top martial artist that weight lifting is pointless, they'll just laugh at you.

I started lifting weights last year and I don't do it consistent, but I do it enough and it made my kung fu way better. Especially if you weight lift along-side with doing kung fu workouts, your pretty much good to go.

How is push up better than bench press? It's almost the same technique!

[IronFist]

Run 2-4 miles 4:30am
Run for 30 minutes
sleep 11:30

Even if you weren't working out that's still not enough sleep.

[Pilgrim]

These might help:
Periodization Training For Sports by Tudor Bompa
Modern Trends In Strength Training by Charles Poliquin- this is great
Supertraining by Mel Siff
Articles by Ian King
Articles by Charles Staley

One interesting idea in all the above is that most training time could be used specifically doing kungfu and not spending hours in the gym lifting weights
Pilgrim

[Tallgeese]

Hi, I'm new here :D

I've been practicing Martial Arts for many years, I initially started with Kung Fu using a mixed blend. As I got older I began to look into weight training & found that the best way is to use greater repetitions with lighter weights but seldom trained to failure.

Size or 'being big' isn't the objective as much as being hard. In fact, too much size is a disadvantage so I basically use lighter weights & as many as 100 reps. One has to explore by experimenting. Sometimes I'd lift a mere 10 kg some 50 - 100 times. However, the weight training process can be boring at times with so many reps. The best thing to do is to combine weight-lifting with other excercises so as not to lose track.

[Toby]

yeah tell Bruce Lee or other top martial artist that weight lifting is pointless, they'll just laugh at you.I hate to be the one to tell you dude, but Bruce Lee is dead. He died a long time ago.

[Toby]

As I got older I began to look into weight training & found that the best way is to use greater repetitions with lighter weights but seldom trained to failure.Did you try the opposite - fewer reps with heavier weights? Didn't think so.

Size or 'being big' isn't the objective as much as being hard. In fact, too much size is a disadvantage so I basically use lighter weights & as many as 100 reps.And what makes one big? Do few sets of few reps and you won't get big. But you knew that right, from your learning over the years?

[wind draft]

In reply to : Toby :I hate to be the one to tell you dude, but Bruce Lee is dead. He died a long time ago.


No Sh*T smarta$$.. I was making a statement, because some other guy say weight lifting was not good and body exercises with high reps are better and all I say was Bruce Lee AND OTHER PRO MARTIAL ARTIST LIFT WEIGHTS.

So before being a smarta$$ please read the other sh*t

[IronFist]

^ Whoa, tough guy. You were talking about telling Bruce Lee in the present tense thus implying he was still alive. So before YOU start being a "smarta$$," get YOUR "sh*t" together, and by "sh*t" I mean "grammar."

[IronFist]

Size or 'being big' isn't the objective as much as being hard. In fact, too much size is a disadvantage so I basically use lighter weights & as many as 100 reps.

What do you mean "being hard?" You mean physically hard?

Don't be too concerned about getting big. Developing big muscles is very difficult and, unless you are a genetic freak, requires a specific combination of weightlifting regimen, diet, sleep, and rest. There are people who spend years in the gym trying to "get big," who cannot do it, so I don't think you need to be worried about it accidently happening because you lift a few heavy weights. And even if you happened to have a perfect bodybuilder weightlifting program, which you don't, without eating like a bodybuilder, you're not going to get big.


One has to explore by experimenting. Sometimes I'd lift a mere 10 kg some 50 - 100 times. However, the weight training process can be boring at times with so many reps. The best thing to do is to combine weight-lifting with other excercises so as not to lose track.

No offence, but lifting weights for 50-100 reps is pretty useless. The only thing you're developing is the endurance to do that lift for 50-100 reps. You're not increasing your strength with a weight that is so low you can do 50 reps with it. Now, obviously you have the motivation if you're doing sets of 50, so you could probably get good results if you had a decent training program.

Now, I'm not sure about "being hard," but I assume you mean so you can take a punch or whatever. I know some fat guys who are very soft who can take hard punches :D Anyway, I think you should look into a strength developing program. It is entirely possible to become VERY strong without gaining much size at all. Look at elite powerlifters who can deadlift 500lbs but who only weigh 130lbs; they are insanely strong and, obviously, aren't very big since they only weigh 130lbs. They're lifting over 3 times their bodyweight, which is amazing.

The way to develop strength without size is to do few sets of low reps with heavy weights and fairly long rest between your sets. Whereas a bodybuilder might do 6 sets of with a weight heavy enough that he can only do 10 reps, and rest 1 minute between each set, a powerlifter or strength athlete might only do 2 sets of 5 with a weight heavy enough that he can only do 6 reps (so he would be stopping before failure in this case), and might rest 5 minutes between each set. Another advantage of training for raw strength is that, often, it is counterproductive to train to failure, and is there fore safer and less painful :) Strength gains come primarily from neurological adaptation and not from muscle growth, and so the training is designed with that in mind.

Anyway, let us know if you're interested. But I assure you that, regardless of your goals, you don't need to be doing sets of 50-100 unless you're planning on entering a contest where you'll be judged on how many reps you can do.

[Toby]

A bunch of abusive shitHey, don't shoot the messenger. Just thought you might appreciate the heads up on Bruce.

[Toby]

The way to develop strength without size is to do few sets of low reps with heavy weights and fairly long rest between your sets ... a powerlifter or strength athlete might only do 2 sets of 5 with a weight heavy enough that he can only do 6 reps ...Now we're talking.



Finally got the 400 DL today - 402.34lb. Decent form, felt strong.

[IronFist]

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. Just thought you might appreciate the heads up on Bruce.

^ omg Toby, u r sUcH a sMarTa$$ omg lolzzzzzzzz!!!11!1!!!1oneone!!1!1eleven!!1!!!

Whoops, sorry, I thought I was a n00b there for a sec.

[wind draft]

yeah tell Bruce Lee or other top martial artist that weight lifting is pointless, they'll just laugh at you.

Notice how I didn't just say Bruce Lee? But also other top martial artist? They are alive right? I thought so. IronFIst mind your own business bro. I was talking to Toby.

And even if I was talkin in the present tense, we all know Bruce Lee is dead. I don't see how that implies he's alive? You're freaking stupid.

[IronFist]

IronFIst mind your own business bro. I was talking to Toby.

I'm pretty sure forums are public venues for discussion. If you want to talk to Toby in private, send him a PM. Anyone can jump in whenever they want, just like sometimes I jump in and yell at TMAists when I see them tell someone to "lift with their tendons" or some other such foolishness.


And even if I was talkin in the present tense, we all know Bruce Lee is dead. I don't see how that implies he's alive? You're freaking stupid.

I'm the stupid one because you don't see how what you said implies he's alive? Wow. You must have studied logic about as hard as you studied grammar.

"Tell" is present and future tense. You cannot "tell" someone something if they are already dead. Therefore, any sentence today that begins with "tell Bruce Lee," is wrong.

[wind draft]

You're missing the point, who cares if its implied or not. Everyone knows Bruce Lee is dead. Plus I included "other top martial artists" in the sentence. This is an internet chat board, not an English major online class. Plus I didn't think someone would read word by word and analyze everything and go "ooohhh look Bruce Lee's dead but this guy is implying he's alive."

Let's go around and read everyone posts word by word and make fun of other people's grammar. If you knew it was a english grammar why even bother wasting your time arguing with me? And saying "tell Bruce Lee" although he's dead, you don't really "tell Bruce Lee." The subject was about weight lifting and we all know the benefits of weight lifting to martial art. So when I said what I said, it was like a figure of speech. Just like when you're telling your friends something the is really crazy and they say "Nah uh shut up.. get outta here!" Do your friends really mean shut up and get out of here? You see what I mean? It doesn't matter that I said "Tell Bruce Lee and other top martial artist that weight lifting sucks and they'll laugh at you." Isn't this just like a figure of speech kinda thing?

[IronFist]

I'm not going to argue with you about your poor grammar and faulty logic skills.

The point is, you should show a little more respect for senior forum members such as Toby, who, in particular, is one of the most knowledgable members on here. There's really no need to come on here with "sh*t" this and "smart ass" that.

[wind draft]

You know.... you're right my language use of smarta$$, Sh*t, and calling you stupid was not cool. And I'm sorry for that. And that only. I overreacted after Toby statement which I felt was a smarta$$ statement.

Come on he said: "I hate to be the one to tell you dude, but Bruce Lee is dead. He died a long time ago."

"I hate to be the one to tell you?" Doesn't that sound like a smarta$$? I know he's dead.

[Toby]

wind draft, nah uh shut up.. get outta here!

You understand, it's just like a figure of speech kinda thing.