Questions about Tai Shing Pek Kwar

[ChinoXL]

Well we all know pek kwar has 100+ forms and tai shing has 5 forms; but how many forms do tai shing pek kwar have?

[oogabooga]

ok the entire system probably has a little less than 200 forms. But the current holder of the system Sifu Chan Sau Chung only knows 128 forms. Apparently there used to be a guy that knows 150 forms, but he passed away and those forms died with him.

[ChinoXL]

so after they fused tai shing (5) forms and pek kwar (100+ forms mayb 200) you're saying "tai shing pek kwar" has 120-150 ish forms? shouldn't it be far less? and the forms he learned aren't they either tai shing or pek kwar.. tai shing pek kwar is it's own system

[Three Harmonies]

So with "only" 128 forms, how are his applications? I have heard he does not teach any!
Jake :)

[Brad]

He had applications on the video I bought... I wouldn't imagine he'd teach application to video students and not personal students :D

[lkfmdc]

I studied Pek Gwa with Y C Wong, he learned it from Gan Duk Hoi, who is Chan Sau Chung's teacher. Gan Duk Hoi said there are only 3 Pek Gwa hand forms, a broadswrod and a spear. There are the 5 monkey forms and a "synthetic" monkey with all 5 characteristics. Teh rest of "Dai Sing Pek Gwa Myuhn" is actually Black Tiger, which Gan Duk Hoi learned from his father-in-law...

Still, I never heard there were more than 100 forms. I had a training brother studying with Chan Sau Chung in HK in teh 1980's and there were not that many forms THEN....

[ChinoXL]

Thanks for showing me the light sifu ross you da MAN! :D is it possible for you to name the forms?? .__. since .. i'm really really curious :(

[lkfmdc]

The Pek Gwa hand sets are Pek Gwa fist, Pek Gwa palm and Pek Gwa leg... I never learned the spear or broadsword and don't even know the names. Sorry

[oogabooga]

ohhh ok i misunderstood what you meant then. I stand corrected. Ya lkfmdc is right. There are 3 fist forms, which are Pek kwar 1, 2, 3. Apparently the 3rd one is where most of the fighting techniques are hidden. I thought your question was how many forms does tai shing pek kwar have in total...

[jmd161]

Teh rest of "Dai Sing Pek Gwa Myuhn" is actually Black Tiger, which Gan Duk Hoi learned from his father-in-law...


Hmmm, I'd heard that also, but wasn't sure if it were true or rumor. Ross do you happen to have a name on the father in law? It's funny because we have alot of Monkey in Black Tiger, that always kinda surprised me.




jeff:)

[ChinoXL]

sifu ross you have stated "There are the 5 monkey forms and a "synthetic" monkey with all 5 characteristics." are the 5 monkey forms lost, drunken, wood, stone, and tall? do you kno the name o the "synthetic" one or you have no idea? thanks

[lkfmdc]

Yup, the five monkey shapes are tall, wood, stone, lost and drunken... teh synthetic one I forget the name, it was one of the ones my si-hing learned in HK under Chan Sau Chung, pretty basic, but since you don't even smell the real 5 for years, he was anxious to learn it

Gan Duk Hoi's father-in-law's name is probably buried in Chan Sau Chung's little red book.... that could take a while to find, go through and get an answer... oh, that book is the one fake Paulie Zink had translated and ripped off word for word over the past few years. Ironiclly, it was my Si-Hing who gave Zink the book!

[jmd161]

Gan Duk Hoi's father-in-law's name is probably buried in Chan Sau Chung's little red book.... that could take a while to find, go through and get an answer... oh, that book is the one fake Paulie Zink had translated and ripped off word for word over the past few years. Ironiclly, it was my Si-Hing who gave Zink the book!


Mr. Ross,


Do you know if Y.C. Wong knows any of the Black Tiger forms? And if so, did you ever learn any of the Black Tiger forms from him?



Thanks for answering my question also, i might just buy Zinks book now to find out that info.LOL

I know it has to be cheeper than CSC's :o


jeff:)

[Sow Choy]

Tai Shing Pek Kwar,

I know GM Chan Sau Chung very well, will see him this new years in Hong Kong, and I have trained with his student Master Chow Keung, who I believe to be an incredible Martist...

They call the different hand sets Pek kwar road 1, 2 & 3... I know both 2 and 3...

They also have a Dun Da (Short Strike), much different then Bak Siu Lum's... Has that Pek Kwar flare, jumping and turning gwa-choy pek-choys... very powerfull...

The sword is called simply "Pek Kwar Dahn Do", GM Kwan Tak Hoi taught this set to GM Ku Yu Jerng, that is why most Northern Shaolin schools have this set also...

I also have seen the Hak Fu Moon performed several times, looks nothing like hung gar, to me it resembles Pek Kwar more with the direction changes similar to Pek Kwar road 3...

I also know a set called Lin Wan Cheung (continuos spear)... They also have a Seh Mah Cheung (snake head spear)...

I know a set from them called Serng Gahn (double metal rods)...

To me, they all seem to have similar movements based from the same system...

I will ask more questions while in Hong Kong, I will be staying with the monkey guys for 2 weeks...

check out this site for info, you must read chinese though...

www.ck-kungfu.com

Joe

[jmd161]

I also have seen the Hak Fu Moon performed several times, looks nothing like hung gar, to me it resembles Pek Kwar more with the direction changes similar to Pek Kwar road 3...

Joe


Contrary to popular belief, outside of a few forms and techniques Hak Fu Muhn looks "NOTHING" like Hung Kuen (Hung Gar). We don't even use fu jow (tiger claw) that much within Black Tiger like most would think. Most ppl when they see Hak Fu Muhn probably would never guess that's what they're seeing. Outside of a few known Black Tiger sets most ppl would not know Black Tiger if you showed them. Thus the problem with soooo many ppl claiming it.:(


I'm still interested in finding out how Monkey found it's way into Black Tiger though...We have some distinct forms within BT not just a few techniques or mimicking.

Joe,

What do you mean by "it resembles Pek Kwar more with the direction changes similar to Pek Kwar road 3..."????? I don't think i've ever seen Pek Kwar road 3, so i'm a bit curious.


jeff:)

[Sow Choy]

Hi Jeff,

From what I have seen of Hak Fu Moon, I have seen some videos, I think it was you that posted them a while back... To me Black Tiger definitely was a southern art ... and I could see the use of stance and hands similar to Hung and the many offshoots...

Pek Kwar is a northern art, and Kwan Tak Hoi exchanged with many masters... Gene Ching put a nice article about a form in their curiculumn where your hands are tied together... Apparently, Kwan Tak Hoi met a descendant of Wu Song mountain who is related to a legendary hero who fought off opponents with his hands tied... Alot of groundwork, Kwan Tak Hoi's Day Tong was pretty good, so he was able to learn from this other master, and passed him some pek kwar sets...

In the black tiger in their style I see some double tiger strikes at the collar bone area that i dont see in the hung stuff usually, CLF has this way of striking, I may be wrong and Hung has it too... But the direction changes I am referring to are striking and stepping in while changing the feet to the corners...

When done at normal speed it seems to have some stomping, charcteristic in some northern styles...

Also if I remember correctly... there was some jump and spins... To me I would say its definitely Northern... I will ask more and try to get some info for you Jeff... I know you are into Black Tiger so I will do my best to get some info on this particular tiger for you....

Take care...

Joe

[jmd161]

Hi Jeff,

From what I have seen of Hak Fu Moon, I have seen some videos, I think it was you that posted them a while back... To me Black Tiger definitely was a southern art ... and I could see the use of stance and hands similar to Hung and the many offshoots...

Yes, i posted a couple of the forms that resembled Hung Kuen for ppl to see.
What most ppl don't know is, that when Su Hak Fu created Black Tiger. He created it from 17 different styles both Northern and Southern. Our Night Tiger set (Ye Fu Kuen) many say looks like Choy Lay Fut and our Gum Gong Kuen (Golden Buddha) is 100% northern shaolin. We usually only talk about the Hung resemblence, because most ppl don't know about the other arts within Black Tiger.

Most people only know of the fact that it came from the same Sil Lum Tiger claw system that bore Hung Gar. Su Hak Fu took what he felt was the best of these various northern and southern shaolin systems and created his style.



In the black tiger in their style I see some double tiger strikes at the collar bone area that i dont see in the hung stuff usually, CLF has this way of striking, I may be wrong and Hung has it too... But the direction changes I am referring to are striking and stepping in while changing the feet to the corners...

When done at normal speed it seems to have some stomping, charcteristic in some northern styles...

Well, it could have also come from Shantung Black Tiger which is a Northern China Black Tiger style... The stepping you speak of sounds like stepping we do though. In Sil Lum Hak Fu Muhn we skip,shuffle,hop,jump,stomp, etc.... with our stepping also.


Also if I remember correctly... there was some jump and spins... To me I would say its definitely Northern... I will ask more and try to get some info for you Jeff... I know you are into Black Tiger so I will do my best to get some info on this particular tiger for you....

Take care...

Joe


Thanks for all your help Joe!!

It was actually "you" that help me find my Black Tiger sifu although, Be it by accident. I worked at the North Lauderdale Home Depot not far from your school. I came in to speak with you and Master Li Siu Hung, you showed me around and talked to me and showed me the Kung Fu Qigong issue with Li Siu Hung on the cover. That issue was about Drunken Choy Lay Fut , i also told you that i had met Grandmaster Lee Koon Hung at the tournament you guys had in 1994 in weston and he remembered me anytime he saw me afterwards. Which meant alot to me, that a man of his stature would remember a scrub like me.:o

I was the big black guy with the gold teeth kinda hard to forget or miss :D LOL

I actually interupted your workout with Li Siu Hung,sorry! lol

But in that issue i read about Hak Fu Muhn and found out that C.Kuen Woo (my sifu) actually lived in miami. The rest is history.


jeff:)

[jmd161]

Hey Joe,


I tried to send these pics to you through pm, but it didn't work. I decided to upload them here so you could see if you or your sifu know any of the CLF sifu and Masters in the pics. This was in Hong Kong in the early 70's it was for my sigung Grandmaster Wong Cheung. He's sitting in the middle of pic black_tiger_2 right on the line. My sifu is the fourth person to his right and youngest person sitting in that row. He was 25 at the time of the picture and chairman of the Black Tiger Assoc.

You'll notice in pic black_tiger_1 Grandmaster Chiu Kao and his wife to the far left, they are the partents of Grandmaster Chiu Chi Ling and Grandmaster Chiu Wai of Hung Gar fame.

thanks for all your help Joe!!


jeff:)

[truffy64]

I lived with HK long times, and pratical with fifferents masters, and indeed, Pekkwar now is a mixture with several styles (for this reason 120 forms).
At the time of Chi Woo, there were several mixtures, the other styles (tang lang, clf...)also il ya not as many forms at the origin for the pek kwar

[truffy64]

seriously, it is impossible to learn more than 100 forms to defend… that is useless…

[firepalm]

Tai Shing Pekwar is a composite style, as mentioned in the previous post there are the Tai Shing forms & the Pekwar (Pi Gua) forms. The other forms if you look at a complete syllabus include Baji Quan, Black Tiger, My Jong, Yen Ching, Chen Taiji (depending on whom you learn from), etc...

Oddly many of Chan Sau Chung's top guys ie; Seen Lum Yuk, Chow Keung, Chen Kune Tai, etc... were not schooled in the entire system of forms nonetheless they went onto become top full contact fighters in the Southeast Asian circuit. And if I am not mistaken most had not learnt the Monkey routines at that time. Their success as full contact fighters many have said was not due learning the vast number of forms in the style but rather the progressive approach that Chan took at the time in training fighters (ie; conditioning, bag training, sparring & such).

[CLFNole]

From the list of Chan Sifu's students you mentioned above Sifu Chow Keung did learn most of the sets including the monkey sets. My kung fu brother and I trained with him and the guy knows a ton of stuff.

He did talk about Chan Sifu;s ways of training them for full contact back in the day and man was it tough. It is no wonder they all did so well when fighting.

[mooyingmantis]

From the list of Chan Sifu's students you mentioned above Sifu Chow Keung did learn most of the sets including the monkey sets. My kung fu brother and I trained with him and the guy knows a ton of stuff.

He did talk about Chan Sifu;s ways of training them for full contact back in the day and man was it tough. It is no wonder they all did so well when fighting.

At one website that I visited it mentioned that Chow Keung only taught three of the monkey forms: lost, stone and drunken. Is that incorrect? From what I have read it seems Chan Sau Chung's son is the only one that Chan Sau Chung taught all the monkey sets to.

[Flying-Monkey]

At one website that I visited it mentioned that Chow Keung only taught three of the monkey forms: lost, stone and drunken. Is that incorrect? From what I have read it seems Chan Sau Chung's son is the only one that Chan Sau Chung taught all the monkey sets to.

Sifu Chan Kai leung is not the only one.

[Sow Choy]

Some more info...

Master Chow Keung and his sihings didn't learn forms as fast when younger... They did concentrate on full-contact more... In the older days people would pay more money to learn more sets... Chow Keung didn't learn monkey until his early 40's he is 60 now...

These days it seems on here with some... People are bcoming Indian Jones Looking for the lost forms and so much importance on how they are passed... With Kwan Tak Hoi, he would learn techniques or forms and when they were from a style like Mizhong, he only kept the techniques he liked and filled the gaps with pek kwar...

So the attitude and mind set of the older generation should be considered when talking of forms...

BTW... there is also a Monkey staff... And as far as I remember there is only 1 Black Tiger set in their curriculum...

Joe

[Flying-Monkey]

Some more info...

Master Chow Keung and his sihings didn't learn forms as fast when younger... They did concentrate on full-contact more... In the older days people would pay more money to learn more sets... Chow Keung didn't learn monkey until his early 40's he is 60 now...

These days it seems on here with some... People are bcoming Indian Jones Looking for the lost forms and so much importance on how they are passed... With Kwan Tak Hoi, he would learn techniques or forms and when they were from a style like Mizhong, he only kept the techniques he liked and filled the gaps with pek kwar...

So the attitude and mind set of the older generation should be considered when talking of forms...

BTW... there is also a Monkey staff... And as far as I remember there is only 1 Black Tiger set in their curriculum...

Joe

There also is a monkey broad sword and monkey judge pens

[Sow Choy]

FM...

The broadsword set... is that performed while acting like a monkey? Because Chow Keung saw someone doin that as well as a spear set and said it was not real... I thought the pen was a pek kwar set... Were u refering to pek kwar dahn do? Love to hear your info...

Joe

[Flying-Monkey]

FM...

The broadsword set... is that performed while acting like a monkey? Because Chow Keung saw someone doin that as well as a spear set and said it was not real... I thought the pen was a pek kwar set... Were u refering to pek kwar dahn do? Love to hear your info...

Joe
The broadsword set i am talking about is a monkey set. I have never seen it, but I heard this from my sifu and sigung. The is more than one pen set.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

I have three questions for those in the know in TSPK.
Does CSC's TSPK have a ring form like Paulie Zink demonstrates on his tape?
Are any of the sets that Paulie Zink performs in his tapes a part of CSC's TSPK?
Please no Zink bashing. These are honest questions.
Any idea when the TSPK website will be back up?

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Sifu Chan Kai leung is not the only one.

Now, Grandmaster Chan and his son, Master Chan Kai Leung, are two of the only people who know all five monkey kungfu styles.


From the article in Kung Fu Magazine (2001) that seems to be the impression. Who else learned all five monkey forms?

[Yao Sing]

Sow Choy
Was that the pek kwar dahn do taught at a seminar at Tournament 2000? I took that seminar and it was a really nice set. I liked it.

[lkfmdc]

I have three questions for those in the know in TSPK.
Does CSC's TSPK have a ring form like Paulie Zink demonstrates on his tape?
Are any of the sets that Paulie Zink performs in his tapes a part of CSC's TSPK?
Please no Zink bashing. These are honest questions.
Any idea when the TSPK website will be back up?

If I give you honest answers, you'll say it's bashing

Zink knows NO Dai Sing Pek Gwa. All the monkey he does he made up. I know someone who knew him for YEARS. Knew him when his monkey sifu was supposed to be a secret (because he didn't know anything about Dai Sing back then). He knew him before Zink got a copy of Master Chan's book. In fact, my friend GAVE Zink the book and helped him translate it... after that, Zink suddenly remembered his teacher and lineage :rolleyes:

I have done the three Pek Gwa forms that YC Wong learned from Gan Duk Hoi... what Zink does looks NOTHING like it...

[Sow Choy]

As far as I know...

Master Chow keung knows all 5 Monkey sets... I have seen the pen form, the one I saw is definitely Pek Kwar... I will ask next time about the Broadsword set being monkeyish... :P

Yaosing,

I believe they taught Pek Kwar Dahn Do & Ying Yang Fist...

As far as Paulie Zink... I gave them a copy of a Zink video on Monkey... They were in tears laughing... They said there is not one similarity at all...

I hope the Tai Shing Pek Kwar under Chan Sau Chung grows... They have alot of great Kung Fu to offer...

Joe

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Guys,
Thank you for your open answers!
Telling the truth is not bashing if done in a respectful way. I think your answers were both honest and respectful.
If I may ask, why was Zink given this book? Was Sifu Chan aware of it?
From what I have seen of Zink's tapes, he seems talented in what he does. Whether it is TSPK or not. If it isn't, he should just change the name of what he does and continue on his own path.
It seems that he and YC Wong have some type of relationship. If Zink doesn't know Pek Kwar, why does Wong (who did study Pek Kwar with Lam Jo) hang with him? Any ideas?
Thanks in advance!

[Yao Sing]

I must admit going in to that seminar I was really expecting to see some monkey type moves in it but as it turned out there were none and it was a really nice set.

Actually I was releived that it wasn't just some half-assed monkeying around set put together just for a seminar.

TSPK looks to be some really good stuff from what I've seen.

[Flying-Monkey]

Guys,
Thank you for your open answers!
Telling the truth is not bashing if done in a respectful way. I think your answers were both honest and respectful.
If I may ask, why was Zink given this book? Was Sifu Chan aware of it?
From what I have seen of Zink's tapes, he seems talented in what he does. Whether it is TSPK or not. If it isn't, he should just change the name of what he does and continue on his own path.
It seems that he and YC Wong have some type of relationship. If Zink doesn't know Pek Kwar, why does Wong (who did study Pek Kwar with Lam Jo) hang with him? Any ideas?
Thanks in advance!

Zink wasn't really GIVEN the book. He got the book some how. As for YC Wong, he learned some Pek Kwar from the TSPK family.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

lkfmdc,
How did your friend get a copy of Master Chan's book? What type of book was it, techniques and forms or historical?

Flying Monkey,
Yes, I knew that YC Wong learned from TSPK lineage. My question is, if Zink is a fraud, why would YC Wong associate with him? Even take him to see Lam Jo who studied with KTH? On Zink's website there is a picture of Matsuda and Wong practicing a PK form together. If the forms are truly unrelated how would this be possible?
Also, I have seen several people on the Internet refer to Zink as a fraud. Isn't it possible that Zink is just repeating what his instructor told him? I know that I have heard some whoppers from a few of my past instructors.
Please realize that I am not associated with either side of this debate. I train in and teach a totally different style of Monkey Kung Fu. There just seems to be some unanswered questions from both camps. So, being nosey I am asking questions.
Thank you for your patience and responses!

[Sow Choy]

I don't know Paulie Zink...

If I met him I would shake his hand and be respectfull... He is very flexible, but the video I saw was really out there... I don;t know monkey, but from what I saw, the techniques and applications would get you killed... So I still am not crazy about monkey techniques and there usefullness...

But from watching Chan Sau Chung and Chow Keung, they have a strong pek kwar backround and then the monkey they do seems more practical... less fooling around, they seem to do with ease... I still have not seen anyone as good as Chan Sau Chung, his son or Chow Keung...

Zink studied Hung Gar 1st either from YC Wong or Buk Sam Kong... He is now teaching Yoga I hear, I know he had a video on Yoga also... I have no problem with the guy, but I personally do not believe him to be Tai Shing Pek Kwar, maybe another monkey style? Or another type of Kung Fu he invented...

If so, that's fine... Let his students test it out in the ring, cage or competition... Like all the other arts...

Joe

[lkfmdc]

How did your friend get a copy of Master Chan's book? What type of book was it, techniques and forms or historical?



Chan Sau Chung printed and published a commercial book in the 1970's. My friend was there in Hong Kong studying with him and came back to the US with a box full of the books. He sold one to Zink, and regretted it for a long time because Zink copied the book and used it for his fraud






Also, I have seen several people on the Internet refer to Zink as a fraud. Isn't it possible that Zink is just repeating what his instructor told him?



NO, Zink knows he is full of it. He used to lie about having a secret teacher for years, then after buying the Dai Sing Pek Gwa book suddenly claimed that lineage

If he said "I just do monkey kung fu" then it would be fine, but he claims to do a certain system and lineage and what he does is NOT that lineage

[Faruq]

What about the Cho Chat Ling guy Zink claimed was his teacher? He didn't do a good job of creating a lineage by claiming a teacher no one ever saw or heard of, right?

[Flying-Monkey]

What about the Cho Chat Ling guy Zink claimed was his teacher? He didn't do a good job of creating a lineage by claiming a teacher no one ever saw or heard of, right?

Those people are not real people. He made them up.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

David, I still have one copy of the book that Steven brougth back from Hong Kong. I'll call him this week to see if he has any other copies. I remember he had like 100 of them...

I also have some very cool pics of CSC that he took when he trained with him in Hong Kong. Some cool monkey and weapon poses. I will try to scan the cover of the book and a few pics this weekend.

MP

[ngokfei]

I believe there are 3 books that CSC put out. I only have 2 of them.

The red one I got from our mutual friend Steve and the blue one I found in a book store on Pell Street before it went' out of business.

The red one has 3 hand forms etc.
The blue one has a sword form and some applications, etc.

take a look

[ngokfei]

red book cover

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I must have the third one then. I'll scan and post the cover by tomorrow.

:)

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Does anyone know who may have posed for the photo of Cho Chat Ling on Zink's website? It seems risky to provide a picture of someone who supposedly does not exist.
Has anyone ever made an actual inquiry into the existance of Cho Chat Ling?
Has anyone ever asked YC Wong's opinion of Zink? Have they asked whether he has seen Zink doing Pek Kwar forms? Any YC Wong students here?

If I seem to ask a lot of pointed questions, it is because I have seen martial arts politics in action many times over the years. Hung Gar has had very heated feuds where one side has claimed the other is not "legitimate". Seven Star Praying Mantis has had the same feuding in the past between Wong Hon Fan and Chiu Chi Man lineage disciples. One still is not allowed to associate with certain teachers even within the same lineage without risking excommunication.
So I have wondered if this may be what has happened here. One instructor stepping on the toes or glory of another.

So far, three of you have made a strong case for CSC's opinion. However, I don't think the case is closed yet.
Thanks again for all of your input!

[Faruq]

Didn't CSC publically state on his old website that no one had ever heard of Cho Chat Ling, and that he appeared on no sifu's lineage chart?

[Flying-Monkey]

Does anyone know who may have posed for the photo of Cho Chat Ling on Zink's website? It seems risky to provide a picture of someone who supposedly does not exist.
Has anyone ever made an actual inquiry into the existance of Cho Chat Ling?
Has anyone ever asked YC Wong's opinion of Zink? Have they asked whether he has seen Zink doing Pek Kwar forms? Any YC Wong students here?

If I seem to ask a lot of pointed questions, it is because I have seen martial arts politics in action many times over the years. Hung Gar has had very heated feuds where one side has claimed the other is not "legitimate". Seven Star Praying Mantis has had the same feuding in the past between Wong Hon Fan and Chiu Chi Man lineage disciples. One still is not allowed to associate with certain teachers even within the same lineage without risking excommunication.
So I have wondered if this may be what has happened here. One instructor stepping on the toes or glory of another.

So far, three of you have made a strong case for CSC's opinion. However, I don't think the case is closed yet.
Thanks again for all of your input!


Dude, paulie Zink doesn't even teach kung fu anymore. He teaches yoga in Montana. He lives on a farm with his wife. i was shocked, because i thought he was gay.

Anyway
Forget about Zink.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Dude, paulie Zink doesn't even teach kung fu anymore. He teaches yoga in Montana. He lives on a farm with his wife. i was shocked, because i thought he was gay.

Anyway
Forget about Zink.


HAhAHAHA....I always thought this too looking at the pics in Inside Kung-Fu.

[Faruq]

I thought so because of his over the top accent, or the way he speaks (I saw his Taoist Yoga video).

[GreenCloudCLF]

I thought so because of his over the top accent, or the way he speaks (I saw his Taoist Yoga video).

And the hair....

[Shaolindynasty]

don't forget the mustache

[SifuAbel]

And that poked in the pooper look on his face.....................

[godzillakungfu]

Hate to do the TTT thing.

I know you are a very busy person LPS, I was wondering if you had a chance to find the third book.

I didn't realize I was sitting on the 2 books Ngo posted. I'm curious if I may be sitting on the third.

Thank You.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

So what has happened to the Tai Shing Pek Kwar Kung Fu Federation? I see their website is down and I heard that their school has closed in Vancouver. Is this true?
Does this have anything to do with their run in with Paulie Zink and his organization?

[CLFNole]

I seriously doubt a run in with Zink's crew would do nothing else but cause a few good laughs.

[Sang Feng Fan]

Zinc's "organization" has made it to New York.

He's had a student there teaching for over a year now.

http://www.wayofthenomad.com/index.aspx

[Yao Sing]

Zinc's "organization" has made it to New York.

He's had a student there teaching for over a year now.

http://www.wayofthenomad.com/index.aspx

Way Of The Nomad? Wasn't 'nomad' one of the clues to Noone's real identity on that nasty CTS thread?

[Eddie]

Hi,
Sifu Chow wanted me to post this a few weeks ago, but I only got time now. Sorry to bring up an old topic again.

Originally, Tai Sing Pek Gwa only had 3 forms and then 5 monkey forms (empty hand), during the years Kan Tak Hoi split some of the forms into shorter versions. What is now Pek Gwa road 1, Pek Gwa road 2 and Pek Gwa road 3 used to be one form. Pek Gwa palm and Ying yeung kuen made the other Pek Gwa forms.

The rest of the forms came from Hak Fu Kuen, My Jong Lohan, Lin Wan Kuen and a few other styles. They also have a Baji form which is like a Pek Gwarised baji form :) .

Anyways, heres Sifu Chow’s set list. These are only the forms he remembered when we went through the list, so Im sure there might be a few more. Pek Gwa training is more about fighting training, and less about forms. More important than forms are conditioning, and proper execution of basic strikes (pek choy and gwa choy) - just like is all modern fighting styles.

EXTERNAL FIST (外家拳術):
- Basic Training (基本功)
- Across Fist (劈掛膀手)
- Pek Kwar Basic Form (劈掛穿手)
- Pek Kwar 1st Fist (劈掛拳一路)
- Pek Kwar 2nd Fist (劈掛拳二路)
- Pek Kwar 3rd Fist (劈掛拳三路)
- Ying Yeung Fist (鴛鴦拳)
- Mi Chung(Lost Track) Fist (迷蹤拳)
- Serial Fist (連環拳)
- Black Tiger Fist (黑虎拳)
- Cat Fist (八把貓功)
- Soften Palm (綿掌)
- Pek Kwar Serial Palm (劈掛連環掌)
- Ye Long Fist (二郎拳)
- Pek Kwar Fist Shorten Style (劈掛短打)
- De Tong Combination Fist (地堂四平拳)
- Wu Son Breaking Manacled Fist (武松脫扣拳)
- Lost Monkey (迷猴拳)
- Drunken Monkey (醉猴拳)

INTERNAL FIST (內家拳術) :
- Chan’s Old Style Tai Chi (陳式老家太極拳)
- Tai Chi Practice Pushing Hand (太極推手)
- Tai Chi Wooden Ball Training (太極功力球)
- Stand Iron Piles (站樁功)
- Ba Gua Palm (遊身八卦掌)
- Ba Chi Fist (八極拳)

BOARDSWORDS (刀術) :
- Both Hand Holding Bare (双手刀)
- Pek Kwar Single Bare (劈掛單刀)
- Ba Gua Double Bare (八卦双刀)
- Calm Ma Boardsword (斬馬刀)
- Chun Char Boardsword (春秋大刀)
- Pok Boardsword (撲刀)

SPEAR (槍術) :
- Serial Spear (連環槍)
- Two Ways Spear (双頭槍)
- Snake Spear (蛇茅)
- Kei Moon Spear (奇門槍)
- Luk Hop Long Spear (六合大槍)

SWORDS (劍術) :
- Pek Kwar Sword (劈掛劍)
- Jin Wu Sword (真武劍)
- Aun Ying Sword (雁形劍)
- Serial Sword (進退連環劍)
- Wu Tong Sword (武當劍)
- Wu Tong Swordplay Sequence (武當劍對練)

STAFF (棍術) :
- Kow Chou Staff (九洲棍)
- Pek Kwar Staff (劈掛棍)
- Yen Hand Staff (陰手棍)
- 2 Sections Staff (大掃子)
- 3 Sections Staff (三節棍)
- Monkey Staff (猴子天門棍)

OTHER WEAPONS (其他兵器) :
- Pek Kwar Silver Hammer (劈掛双槌)
- Dragon Double Metal Rods (龍頭双鐧)
- Tiger Double Hook (虎頭双鉤)
- Pek Kwar Broadaxe (劈掛追風斧)
- Pek Kwar Half Moon (護手陰陽月)
- Fong Tin Halberd (方天畫戟)
- 9 Sections Whip (九節鞭)
- Luk Hop Chinese Scholar’s Brush Pen (六合判官筆)
- Lan Ma Rods (攔馬蹶)

FIST PRACTICING SEQUENCE (拳術對練) :
- Pek Kwar Fist (劈掛拳對打)
- De Tong Fist (地堂拳對打)
- Monkey Fist (猴拳對打)
- Grapping Skill (擒拿散手)

WEAPON AGAINST SEQUENCE (兵器對練) :
- Single Bare Against Spear (單刀戰槍)
- Double Bare Against Spear (双刀戰槍)
- Pok Broadsword Against Spear (撲刀戰槍)
- 2 Sections Staff Against Spear (大掃子戰槍)
- 3 Sections Staff Against Spear (三節棍戰槍)
- Shaolin Staff Practicing Sequence (劈掛棍對打)

[Eddie]

One more thing. Unlike popular belief, Tai Shing Pek Gwar isn’t really based on Monkey. Monkey part of Tai Shing Pek Gwar is only taught in advanced levels. Pek Gwar is a different style, and so its not entirely correct to say that TSPG is based on the movements of the monkey. Most TSPK student wouldn’t know the monkey forms.

[jmd161]

I'd be interested in hearing about the Black Tiger Fist and Ye long Fist sets. We have a Ye Fu Kuen (night tiger fist) set.



jeff:)

[Eddie]

Kan Tak Hoi's wive learned black tiger and somewhere along the lines it was added to the list.

I believe the cat fist is also from Hak Fu Kuen.

[jmd161]

Kan Tak Hoi's wive learned black tiger and somewhere along the lines it was added to the list.

I believe the cat fist is also from Hak Fu Kuen.



Do you happen to know the wifes name?




jeff:)

[Eddie]

Dont know. I will find out for you.

[street_fighter]

chow keungs profile on wavingclouds. good list of forms he teaches. http://www.wavingclouds.com/artists_hk.htm

*click on chow keung on the right

[ChinoXL]

man.. he should so make videos on all his monkey forms .. and learn the last 2 :D i dun c myself travellin 2 hong kong to learn x[

[lkfmdc]

Do you happen to know the wifes name?



Mrs Kan Duk Hoi :D

It's in his book, now I have to find the book, under the bed? In teh attic? Darn

[FalunDafa=good]

Tai Shing Pek Kwar is a beautiful art. I learned Duan Lian Quan as a child. It is a very fun style.

[jmd161]

Mrs Kan Duk Hoi :D

It's in his book, now I have to find the book, under the bed? In teh attic? Darn




You had me for a second :D LOL


If anyone can find the name it would help me trace back through the lineage. I knew there was Black Tiger within TSPK, just that i've never seen it. I haven't seen any of the monkey forms, except what was posted on Youtube. I'm sure if it was added to TSPK, it's prolly changed a bit from what we have.


jeff:)

[Eddie]

Nope, no name. The name wasnt that important I hear.

Anyways, ChinoXL, Sifu Chow will be visiting the USA in October this year. So far he knows he will be in both Florida and Seattle, but he is concidering visiting NY if he can get together more people who are interested in a workshop / seminar. If you want to get more info or set up a class, contact Sifu Joe Keit (sow choy on this forum) at www.leekoonhungkungfu.com. Sifu Chow will also be visiting Canada during that same time. He left South Africa this week and returned to HK. He will be in Thailand next month, Europe the month after that and then USA. Sifu Chow will be back in SA in January.

[Flying-Monkey]

man.. he should so make videos on all his monkey forms .. and learn the last 2 :D i dun c myself travellin 2 hong kong to learn x[

Classes in the northeast will start soon

[Mega-Foot]

I still don't see any reference to the Big-Six Fist. I'm wondering if perhaps I have a different translation of a classic TSPK form.

[Eddie]

or that one is for inner chamber students only :)

[lostdragon]

I studied Pek Gwa with Y C Wong, he learned it from Gan Duk Hoi, who is Chan Sau Chung's teacher. Gan Duk Hoi said there are only 3 Pek Gwa hand forms, a broadswrod and a spear. There are the 5 monkey forms and a "synthetic" monkey with all 5 characteristics. Teh rest of "Dai Sing Pek Gwa Myuhn" is actually Black Tiger, which Gan Duk Hoi learned from his father-in-law...

Still, I never heard there were more than 100 forms. I had a training brother studying with Chan Sau Chung in HK in teh 1980's and there were not that many forms THEN....

Disclaimer- I am not a student of PW, nor do I claim to be an authority on the subject. These are my observations and opinions.

That being said, this subject is interesting to me, b/c I think it illustrates just how much overlap and influence you can see across many martial systems.

On the subject of Pekwar- IIRC PW (cantonese) = Piqua (mandarin) IIRC. Pekwar broadsword = piqua broadsword.

This form appears to be an archetypal BS form that has been incorporated in MULTIPLE kung fu systems, both northern and southern. I have seen ppl from the south- hung gar (including students of YC Wong), choy li fut, etc. as well as the north- shaolin/long fist, etc. perform this form. While the form usually retains the 'flavor' of the individual practitioner and style, it essentially retains the morphology of the original- i.e. it appears the same or very similar regardless, retaining similar patterns, positions/stances, etc..

To me, KF is like linquistics in many ways. While language can be very unique to a person, people or culture, it also retains a lot of similarities to what has influenced it. This is the way that linquists can track the migration of language and group language into families across the world. Thus, while lineages in KF can be unclear and muddied, the morphological elements found in what they do can give you some good insight into ancestry.

So, for example, coming back to something like this BS form- when I watch someone doing a form, I start watching for sequences & patterns, positions, stances, etc. and if you don't recognize what it is right away, you can get an idea of where it has drawn it's influences. Likewise, different systems and teachers have a flavor that is recognizable too.

This is something that I've noted across the board. People have borrowed/incorporated & modified a few forms for a long time. Kinda like tan tui or other iconic forms that get incorporated into a variety of systems, then are modified by the system/instructors individual flavor. So, when looking at a system that has 100's for forms, usually, there are very few that are solely unique to the system- that is to say completely original- and at some point material was borrowed, modified and incorporated.

It is my opinion that this is not bad at all- This is one reason that I really like the study of KF- such a broad, deep history and many influence when you look at it from these kind of perspective. It also illustrates the degree of crossover and influence all these arts have had on each other.

Just some thoughts. I hope this added to the discussion.

[Eddie]

kan tak hoi stayed over at lam jo's place for a while and he gave him the PK broadsword.

We do the very same BS in Lee Koon Hung CLF, albeit with a LKH CLF flare. I saw the Bucksing guys also do this form too. I think it must have come from the Hung influence in HK.

[CLFNole]

Eddie:

Yes the Pek Kwar Do form in the LKH lineage comes from Buk Siu Lum as sifu's brother, Li Chun Hung is a BS sifu from the Yim Sheong Mo line.

Peace.

[diego]

Hi,
Sifu Chow wanted me to post this a few weeks ago, but I only got time now. Sorry to bring up an old topic again.

Originally, Tai Sing Pek Gwa only had 3 forms and then 5 monkey forms (empty hand), during the years Kan Tak Hoi split some of the forms into shorter versions. What is now Pek Gwa road 1, Pek Gwa road 2 and Pek Gwa road 3 used to be one form. Pek Gwa palm and Ying yeung kuen made the other Pek Gwa forms.

The rest of the forms came from Hak Fu Kuen, My Jong Lohan, Lin Wan Kuen and a few other styles. They also have a Baji form which is like a Pek Gwarised baji form :) .

Anyways, heres Sifu Chow’s set list. These are only the forms he remembered when we went through the list, so Im sure there might be a few more. Pek Gwa training is more about fighting training, and less about forms. More important than forms are conditioning, and proper execution of basic strikes (pek choy and gwa choy) - just like is all modern fighting styles.

EXTERNAL FIST (外家拳術):
- Basic Training (基本功)
- Across Fist (劈掛膀手)
- Pek Kwar Basic Form (劈掛穿手)
- Pek Kwar 1st Fist (劈掛拳一路)
- Pek Kwar 2nd Fist (劈掛拳二路)
- Pek Kwar 3rd Fist (劈掛拳三路)
- Ying Yeung Fist (鴛鴦拳)
- Mi Chung(Lost Track) Fist (迷蹤拳)
- Serial Fist (連環拳)
- Black Tiger Fist (黑虎拳)
- Cat Fist (八把貓功)
- Soften Palm (綿掌)
- Pek Kwar Serial Palm (劈掛連環掌)
- Ye Long Fist (二郎拳)
- Pek Kwar Fist Shorten Style (劈掛短打)
- De Tong Combination Fist (地堂四平拳)
- Wu Son Breaking Manacled Fist (武松脫扣拳)
- Lost Monkey (迷猴拳)
- Drunken Monkey (醉猴拳)

INTERNAL FIST (內家拳術) :
- Chan’s Old Style Tai Chi (陳式老家太極拳)
- Tai Chi Practice Pushing Hand (太極推手)
- Tai Chi Wooden Ball Training (太極功力球)
- Stand Iron Piles (站樁功)
- Ba Gua Palm (遊身八卦掌)
- Ba Chi Fist (八極拳)

BOARDSWORDS (刀術) :
- Both Hand Holding Bare (双手刀)
- Pek Kwar Single Bare (劈掛單刀)
- Ba Gua Double Bare (八卦双刀)
- Calm Ma Boardsword (斬馬刀)
- Chun Char Boardsword (春秋大刀)
- Pok Boardsword (撲刀)

SPEAR (槍術) :
- Serial Spear (連環槍)
- Two Ways Spear (双頭槍)
- Snake Spear (蛇茅)
- Kei Moon Spear (奇門槍)
- Luk Hop Long Spear (六合大槍)

SWORDS (劍術) :
- Pek Kwar Sword (劈掛劍)
- Jin Wu Sword (真武劍)
- Aun Ying Sword (雁形劍)
- Serial Sword (進退連環劍)
- Wu Tong Sword (武當劍)
- Wu Tong Swordplay Sequence (武當劍對練)

STAFF (棍術) :
- Kow Chou Staff (九洲棍)
- Pek Kwar Staff (劈掛棍)
- Yen Hand Staff (陰手棍)
- 2 Sections Staff (大掃子)
- 3 Sections Staff (三節棍)
- Monkey Staff (猴子天門棍)

OTHER WEAPONS (其他兵器) :
- Pek Kwar Silver Hammer (劈掛双槌)
- Dragon Double Metal Rods (龍頭双鐧)
- Tiger Double Hook (虎頭双鉤)
- Pek Kwar Broadaxe (劈掛追風斧)
- Pek Kwar Half Moon (護手陰陽月)
- Fong Tin Halberd (方天畫戟)
- 9 Sections Whip (九節鞭)
- Luk Hop Chinese Scholar’s Brush Pen (六合判官筆)
- Lan Ma Rods (攔馬蹶)

FIST PRACTICING SEQUENCE (拳術對練) :
- Pek Kwar Fist (劈掛拳對打)
- De Tong Fist (地堂拳對打)
- Monkey Fist (猴拳對打)
- Grapping Skill (擒拿散手)

WEAPON AGAINST SEQUENCE (兵器對練) :
- Single Bare Against Spear (單刀戰槍)
- Double Bare Against Spear (双刀戰槍)
- Pok Broadsword Against Spear (撲刀戰槍)
- 2 Sections Staff Against Spear (大掃子戰槍)
- 3 Sections Staff Against Spear (三節棍戰槍)
- Shaolin Staff Practicing Sequence (劈掛棍對打) Can we get video of these sets?. Thanx