Phoenix Eye Punch

[couch]

The following is from the appliedkungfu.com website:
--------------------------------------------------
Biu Jee

The Biu Jee hand contains emergency techniques.
Iron fingers can strike a vital point at once.
The stepping in elbow strike has sufficient threatening power.
The phoenix eye punch has no compassion.
Fak Sau, Ginger Fist, and Guide Bridge; their movements are closely coordinated and hard to defend and nullify.
Springy power and the extended arm are applied to close range.
The situation is different when preventing from defeat in an emergency.
The Biu Jee is not taught to outsiders.
How many Sifu pass on the proper heritage?
-----------------------------------------------------

Pretty cool Kuen Kuit stuff. The question I would like everyone's opinion on is the 4th line. Does this line relate directly to the Biu Jee form itself? In your Biu Jee form, do you have this punch within the form? Is this type of punch in another form (Chum Kiu)? Or maybe it's in one of the drills you do?

Please discuss,
Kenton Sefcik

[Tom Kagan]

... Does this line relate directly to the Biu Jee form itself? In your Biu Jee form, do you have this punch within the form? Is this type of punch in another form (Chum Kiu)? Or maybe it's in one of the drills you do?


In answer to questions

#1. No, unless I feel like it. Then, yes.
#2. No, unless I feel like it. Then, yes.
#3. No, unless I feel like it. Then, yes.
#4. No, unless I feel like it. Then, yes.

;)

[monkeyspoon]

i haven't yet reached biu jee, but i understand that the knife forms contain the phoenix eye strike, is this right?

[Tom Kagan]

i haven't yet reached biu jee, but i understand that the knife forms contain the phoenix eye strike, is this right?


#5. No, unless I feel like it. Then ... well, you get the idea.

[anerlich]

The phoenix eye fist is not in TWC's bil jee or any other form. We don't have ginger fists either.

However, as Tom said, you could put it into your bil jee or any other form if you wished (wailing away on the dummy with it might not be a gret idea). The forms are vocabularies of techniques and patterns of effective movement, not a set of restrictions on what you are allowed or not allowed to do.

FWIW, GM Cheung advocates (I heard all this at a seminar he gave) conditioning the knuckle and the rest of the fist in order to use the phoenix eye for dim mak. But he also says that dim mak applications are impractical in the frenzied chaos of a fight, and that if you can't fight without dim mak, there's no point trying to learn it for fighting.

[n.mitch]

We dont have the Phoenix eye in our bil jee either. I have seen the wsl form and the twc form and dont recall seing it ther either.
What is the ginger fist?
the main person ive seen doing the phoenix fist in artices is william cheung and alfredo de brocco, i always just thought it must have been in the william cheung method.
Ive seen Ian protheroe forms and dont recall it in there but he does his forms a little different from william i think.
Anerlich does Rick spain still do the twc forms the same as william or are they changed now? I heard the sil lim tau is done in a front stance now?

[viper]

I pretty sure in the william cheung line there is no phoenix knuckle. In one of the wing chun fighting stratergies dvd ive got of sigungs he talks about how to train it and use it. Suppose you could throw it in there if you wanted.

[anerlich]

n.mitch:

You are correct, we do the forms in front stance. SLT we do now has more footwork than the TWC Advanced SLT also.

My Sifu said GM Cheung showed it to him that way once. If anyone has problems with that, talk to him, not me. The way we do it IMHO develops certain footwork and defensive attributes and angles not developed so well by the "regular" TWC CK or BJ. YMMV.


I pretty sure in the william cheung line there is no phoenix knuckle.

In the forms there is not. But, as I said earlier, I've been to seminars where GM Cheung expounded on it at length and described conditioning methods for its use. So it IS in the system.


Ive seen Ian protheroe forms and dont recall it in there but he does his forms a little different from william i think.

I've read Sifu Protheroe's book - good book, BTW - and the forms look pretty close. He may have made more recent changes, of course. GM Cheung's made small changes over time and taught different people differently as well. For example the Bil jee in his book differs from the Bil Jee taught in our kwoon when we were in the WWCKFA.


What is the ginger fist?

It's like a leopard paw from Shaolin systems. striking with the second knuckles of the fingers. Nanyang WC use it and so too do others probably. Haven't used it where I am, but we also have dummy forms with top wrist trikes and tiger claws, FWI(W.

[viper]

yeah sorry I didnt make myself clear im aware thats its not in the forms thats what i meant sorry about the mix up.

[viper]

Also with the ginger fist we use it in our kwoon.My sifu was sayin that when he studied unger Gm Cheung he showed him that but he says he didint use it much thats what my sifu says.

[Liddel]

I have the Ginger punch in Chum Kiu and Biu Jee but i have never come across the Phoenix eye punch in VT before.

In Chum Kiu it comes from Bong Sao using inch and elbow power at the head area,
and in Biu Jee it uses inch and waist power aimed at the torso area.

You must have a conditioned wrist for support when using it to strike even the soft areas of the throat, i seldom use it in real combat instead relying on the palm, however my Sifu has used it infront of me with very powerful results and im told he got the necessary power in his wrists from the Bat Chum Do.

:cool:

[monkeyspoon]

thank you, someone who also recognises the phoenix eye strike wrist movement in the baat cham do

[couch]

thank you, someone who also recognises the phoenix eye strike wrist movement in the baat cham do

Thanks for all the input. With the above comment...you are saying that the wrist movement of the phoenix eye fist is present in the sword form? Could you explain where to me? Interesting ideas!

Thanks!

[monkeyspoon]

im not yet on the knife form, yet i have tried various parts of it and had bits described to me, but one thing i found quite obvious was the slashing/chopping strike with the knife cause the wrist to bend forward as the knife moves from vertical to horizontal ( as opposed to the jabbing strikes) - this is the best way i can describe it in words really.... the motion is similar to that of the phoenix eye strike, however, the knives, being added weight, enable you to train it harder. i consider the phoenix eye strike to be very valuable and potentially useful, if very dangerous. if you have the oppurtunity to strike a target in a vulnerable area with enough accuracy, the phoenix eye fist can be very effective (IMHO etc etc.)

as for biu jee...isnt there a lot of wrist flicking in the very first section? arent some downward - i guess this is a thumb gouge? but maybe it can be a phoenix eye strike too, same wrist action, different hand shape?

im a humble chum kiu student so im preparing to be heavily slated

[Liddel]

Monkeyspoon even though i do agree to some extent with you, i was not reffering to the phoenix eye punch from my own experience. I only have the ginger punch in my VT.

I was merely trying to state that the weight, and as you mentioned wrist actions, of the Bat Chum Do allow a student to train wrist power which helps in any action that relys on the wrist.

I study the Lok Dim Boon not the double swords, but from what my master has shown me during discussions is that as the knife/s go in you turn at the wrist making a gash become a hole allowing blood to pour and minimising recovery from such an attack.

Such actions require wrist power that are useful for the ginger punch which i use and i would imagine the phoenix eye punch that you stated
:cool:

Where in your form do you have the phoenix eye punch ?
Is it a fist with one knuckle protruding like i think ? are we talking about the same thing ?

Curious

[anerlich]

monkeyspoon,

I too was wondering what you were getting at re the knife form but that makes it a bit clearer.

IMO, the movement of the wrist appears similar with the knives and how a phoenix eye strike might be delivered, but really I think they are different. With the knives, you use the wrist to "slice", so that the energy is moving back towards you, whereas in a phoenix eye you are driving it into the opponent. Not to say you can't use the swords with an "away-slicing" movement, or as stabbing implements, but according to (some) folklore the stab was avoided as it was a killing rather than maiming strike and this avoided by devout Buddhists. In our knife form there is no stabbing. It sounds a bit like saying the neutron bomb is more humane than the standard nuclear weapon, but that's one of the stories.

I think for most people the index finger and knuckle would be the weak links rather than the wrist, and it is the finger rather than the wrist that requires most conditioning.

I think there's more commonality with the finger strikes in BJ, as you suggest. They go at various angles, and the form is designed to develop striking power into the extremities, which in BJ are the fingers, but could just as easily be a phoenix eye and the strikes used to get the energy into the "eye". In TWC, the BJ finger strikes are done with a flexed wrist to allow shock absorption as well as angled striking, and while doing some moderate conditioning for the fingers we are not trying to turn them into steel rods. It should work like a fencer's foil, not a battering ram. It would be interesting to try the form replacing the finger strikes with phoenix eye fists.

Remember, you have to be able to strike properly with a standard fist and palm before you start worrying about more exotic hand formations, and be able to fight without dim mak before even considering trying to fight with it.

[n.mitch]

Hi anerlich i wasn't haven a go at your form. Its always good to see new ideas.
I just read the current blitz article on it which explains it well.
Sifu Ian's wing chun is very good and he is a top bloke very humble, i was in Q.L.D visiting relatives and e.mailed him to catch up and train in his class and it was a great training session, good chi sau and he is a very good teacher i was talking to him about wing chun for 40 or so mins after class. very open and no politics. if anyone is ever in Brisebane i would recomened training with him no matter what lineage your from( my lineage of WC is different from his).
so the cork screwing uppercut from the bong sau in chum kiu is the ginger fist?
I know some WC lineage do a straight punch of it

[wei wu wei]

Hi,

In Hei Ban Wing Chun, phoenix eye fist appears often. e.g. in Siu Nim Tao just after saam bai fat section. It also appears in the other hand forms as well as the Jong. I think I recall seeing phoenix in Pan Nam WIng Chun demo of forms too. Also Siu Nim Tao in Hei Ban Wing Chun introduces the use of Biu Sao.
Perhaps this and ginger fist are techniques that aren't expressed during Yip Man Wing Chun, but are more on the fringes of Wing Chun. With that I mean, if the opportunity arises to warrant its use and you understand correct alignment to hit with a phoenix eye... then use it. My inclination would be that it is far easier to punch or palm, which maybe why these strikes are emphasised far more . You can appreciate how failure to align the joint for a ginger fist strike could cause you more harm than the opponent.

Regards,

WW

[KPM]

Hi Guys!

With the knives, you use the wrist to "slice", so that the energy is moving back towards you, whereas in a phoenix eye you are driving it into the opponent.

---But some lineages do perform a "snap cut" with the knifes...extending the arm and snapping the wrist forward at the same time in order to impact with the edge rather than slice. This motion is very much like the phoenix eye strike. In some CMA's, the knives are referred to as "big choppers." This kind of strike is essentially a "chop" with the knives rather than a slice.

I think for most people the index finger and knuckle would be the weak links rather than the wrist, and it is the finger rather than the wrist that requires most conditioning.

---How do you condition a finger? There is no need to try and build up callouses over the joint, because the phoenix eye fist is used against soft targets.


Remember, you have to be able to strike properly with a standard fist and palm before you start worrying about more exotic hand formations, and be able to fight without dim mak before even considering trying to fight with it.

---I would add that you have to be able to generate "short power" before considering using the phoenix eye strike, because it is most appropriate at close distances.

Keith

[KPM]

I have the Ginger punch in Chum Kiu and Biu Jee but i have never come across the Phoenix eye punch in VT before.


---The phoenix eye punch figures more prominently in the mainland styles of WCK than in the Yip Man system. For instance.....many sections of the Mei Gei Wong SLT form close with the phoenix eye strike rather than just huening to a horizontal fist as in the Yip Man system. For what its worth....Augustine Fong has the phoenix eye fist and the ginger fist in his BG form. He also has the phoenix eye fist in the dummy form.

---It should also be pointed out, that at least according to Augustine Fong, the "uppercut-like punch from the Chum Kiu form is not the ginger fist. This is a "drilling punch" (chau kuen or juen kuen). The ginger fist is a blow delivered with the palm side of the fist rather than with the knuckles. Its like "knocking on a door", or "rapping your knuckles upside someone's head."


Keith

[Airdrawndagger]

Im from the Yip Man/Moy Yat lineage and no where in the first 3 forms are either the ginger fist or the phoenix eye punch.
Are these attacks from the original forms or are these outside techs. that some have spinkled into "their" systems?
I dunno maybe im being taught the watered down version...

[KPM]

Im from the Yip Man/Moy Yat lineage and no where in the first 3 forms are either the ginger fist or the phoenix eye punch.
Are these attacks from the original forms or are these outside techs. that some have spinkled into "their" systems?
I dunno maybe im being taught the watered down version...


No, nothing "watered down." :) I think they were Fong Sifu's "add ons" to the Yip Man system. I think the frequent phoenix eye fists in the Mei Gei Wong system were likely "add ons" to the Yuen Kay Shan system. But if I do recall, one of Yip Man's early Foshan students (Luen Gai) also has several phoenix eye fists in his forms. Different lineages just have different things they emphasize. But the fact remains that the phoenix eye strike is a pretty common technique in some systems of Wing Chun. Don't think of it as exclusive to Bak Mei or Southern Mantis! :D IMHO, I don't find the ginger fist to be nearly as common, nor nearly as useful.

Keith

[Vajramusti]

Sifu Fong always has had the phoenix eye and the ginger fist in his instruction on the mook jong and biu jee. His usage flows from wing chun structure and dynamics. But knowing the motions of the forms and understanding them and developing the necessary coordination and skills and knowledge of the open lines and having the timing and the coordination to use them effectively are quite different things.

When learned well- both fists can be used ina wide variety of ways. They dont need to be used where a regular punch of palm will do. Sharp biu jee level chi sao skills help immensely in smooth usage of both fists.

As has been noted several times Ip Man showed Lun Cai (sp?)in Fatshan the usage of the phoenix eye.

There is no watering down of wing chun imvolved.

Southern mantis -of Gin Foon Mak also has those two fists but the structures and dynamics of SM are different from wing chun.

[Matrix]

Im from the Yip Man/Moy Yat lineage and no where in the first 3 forms are either the ginger fist or the phoenix eye punch.Interesting. I too am from Yip Man/Moy Yat lineage and we use the ginger fist in Biu Jee. Go figure..

[Airdrawndagger]

Matrix

What part of the form? And just so I understand what a phoenix eye punch is:
A punch with the index or pointer finger's knuckle flexed out more than the other three knuckles, right?
Is this punch left up to ones own interpretations of a wing chun punch with in the form(s), or is it clearly demoed?

Ginger fist.
New to me. I was thinking of how this strike might me used and the only plausable way I can see it used is if one has ones left or right arm in the high fauk sau position and wanted to immediately strike the face without any transition.
Or perhaps huen an indoor tan sau-to ginger fist...but how can this type of attack be more effective or powerful than a palm strike?
Please explain.
And please feel free to correct my interpritations.....

[Matrix]

What part of the form? And just so I understand what a phoenix eye punch is:
A punch with the index or pointer finger's knuckle flexed out more than the other three knuckles, right?
Is this punch left up to ones own interpretations of a wing chun punch with in the form(s), or is it clearly demoed?.....Airdrawn', I did not mentionthe Pheonix-Eye, but that can really be added anywhere a punch or any 'da' hand is used. As to the knuckle used, I believe it is the next knuckle down, not the index finger.


Ginger fist.
New to me. I was thinking of how this strike might me used and the only plausable way I can see it used is if one has ones left or right arm in the high fauk sau position and wanted to immediately strike the face without any transition.
Or perhaps huen an indoor tan sau-to ginger fist...but how can this type of attack be more effective or powerful than a palm strike?
The ginger fist is seen in Biu Jee in the section after the three Biu Sau's. We place both hands in front of our chest and throw the hands forward with long-arm energy, then swing both arms to one side and return to the centerline with a ginger fist. Ginger fist can be quite effective at attacking the opponents arms. If done well, it can have a nice numbing effect. Of course, like all weapons, it's use can be modified to suit the individual.


And please feel free to correct my interpritations.....I'm not qualitfied to correct your interpretations, but I am happy to share some of my own.

Peace

[Matrix]

There is no watering down of wing chun imvolved.
Joy,
I believe that he was referring to the possibilty that his version might be watered down. Not yours. I would hazard a guess that neither one is water-down. They are merely different.

[anerlich]

But some lineages do perform a "snap cut" with the knifes

Mine doesn't, though I think I did allude to the possibility you mentioned in my post.


How do you condition a finger?

Try rock climbing sometime. Your fingers and related muscles and joints WILL get conditioned, whether you want them to or not.

What about all those KF movies with guys thrusting their hands into woks full of heated gravel? They weren't digging for buried treasure.

A "one finger" lift used to be a staple of old-time circus strongmen. There are lots of web pages related to grip training and finger strength.

You're strengthening the connective tissue and tendons around the joints of the index finger. William Cheung advocates pushups on one phoenix knuckle and the palm of the other hand, first against a wall, then on the floor, working towards pushups on both phoenix knuckles. He also talked about the deal where you "drill" holes in an adobe brick using a moistened finger.


There is no need to try and build up callouses over the joint, because the phoenix eye fist is used against soft targets.


I never said there was, but, according to William Cheung, a callouse will develop from the above training, though that is a byproduct, not its primary purpose.

I'm just relating what I have been told. I am sceptical about many things in TCMA and TCM. For further argument, please email William Cheung direct.

I personally can't see such development as an effective use of limited training time. If I wanted to cause the sort of damage the phoenix eye is supposed to cause, I'd rather use some sort of yawara type implement, or run the guy over with my car (or better yet, someone else's car). You're not an ape, use a tool.

As someone else said, you're just as likely to damage yourself as the other unless you work these hand formations really hard, and I question the ROI thereof.


As to the knuckle used, I believe it is the next knuckle down, not the index finger.

In Xingyi and other styles where I have seen the phoenix eye, the second knuckle of the index finger is used to strike.

The name "phoenix eye", I was told,comes about because when you look downward at the vertical PE fist, the folds of the fingers and skin around them resemble an eye. This doesn't happen with other hand formations.

For certain targets, other surfaces of the hand can strike as well, e'g to the throat - the index second knuckle goes in the "hole", the bottom three first knuckles impact the top of the sternum behind it. Once again, that's what I was told, not necessarily something I regard as a tip top idea.

I practice a dragon style form where the second knuckle of the middle finger is used as a striking point, but that was never referred to as a phoenix eye.

[Hendrik]

In Yik Kam linage slt, there are 4 basic tools type, Namely:

open up PALM, close down HAND, lift up FINGER, and Stacking Punch. Stacking Punch is Pheonix eye.




This pheonix eye can link to Emei 12 zhuang.
In Emei 12 zhuang, Pheonix eye hand type is also a transformation of the Sun and Moon latch.......etc

Where the sun and moon latch is a technics the Yik Kam lineage applied or transform while doing huen sau or lap sau......


IMHHO

[Liddel]

Just in realtion to another post, i wanted to discuss different uses from the people posting here.

As already stated, i only have the Ginger punch and not the phoenix eye punch so ill comment on that.

My ginger punch connects with the 2nd knuckle of each finger and does not connect with the palm, although the palm is a nice follow up given the chance. :)

I only use such an attack on soft areas of the body. When it comes to timing i mainly use it from an indoor posiotion and aim it for under the chin area in the soft tissue.

It is very useful when you have - say a bridge on your arm such as, just a hand or a vt action like Fook Sao/Jut Sao etc to rotate your elbow in and up with the wrist following in a twisting motion to drill into the chin, letting the opponents hand fall to the outside.

This is a good attack when used with the right timing, and the elbow power as well as twisting effect of the wrist combined with horse power can injure quite badly.

The main reason i use it in such a position is because of the short sharp movement needed does not give away intent nor give warning for a defence against it.

Also if i step foward with a punch and my opponent steps to the side staying on my inside (moving to my outside would warrent a different action)
i can change my fist to a Ginger punch and whip it in towards the chin in a straight line using body and elbow power. (this can obviously be done with a normal punch too.
Wrist power is less present in this use but still there.

This is just an explanation of two ways i use it. (from Chum Kill :D )
How about you guys - Im curious about timing and use ?
And what forces are at work, inch / elbow etc.

[Airdrawndagger]

Airdrawn', I did not mentionthe Pheonix-Eye, but that can really be added anywhere a punch or any 'da' hand is used. As to the knuckle used, I believe it is the next knuckle down, not the index finger.


The ginger fist is seen in Biu Jee in the section after the three Biu Sau's. We place both hands in front of our chest and throw the hands forward with long-arm energy, then swing both arms to one side and return to the centerline with a ginger fist. Ginger fist can be quite effective at attacking the opponents arms. If done well, it can have a nice numbing effect. Of course, like all weapons, it's use can be modified to suit the individual.

I'm not qualitfied to correct your interpretations, but I am happy to share some of my own.

Peace

Ok, but that action is a wan laup sau followed by a punch to the mid section(as I was taught). That strike can also be a chop or open plam strike to the mid section, chest or face.
If that indeed is what is considered the ginger fist then it is the first time I have heard of anyone reffer to it as such.
Also, by the way Liddel describes his ginger fist it sounds like it more resembles the swiping strike found in a panther or tiger style, but instead of a swiping motion the second set of knuckles are used as the contact point and the motion used is such as to where the knuckles are being driving into a soft area.

[Liddel]

Airdrawndagger wrote
"Also, by the way Liddel describes his ginger fist it sounds like it more resembles the swiping strike found in a panther or tiger style, but instead of a swiping motion the second set of knuckles are used as the contact point and the motion used is such as to where the knuckles are being driving into a soft area."

You are correct.
Phoenix eye to me is a fist with one knuckle sticking out at the top.
I dont have it in my form (Sifu Lok Lineage)

Ginger punch - Close your fingers in at the second knucle, palm remains flat.
Resembles tiger claw but we have an angle at the wrist which varies from 15 degrees to 90. (2nd and 3rd forms)

Just to clarify ( because this is what i wanted to explore in conversation)
the action can not only swipe as you mention but it drives , twists , and bends making it a very sharp attack.

Matrix wrote
"but how can this type of attack be more effective or powerful than a palm strike?"

Its all down to the target area, try to palm under the chin, now you may get a good hit nice and flush...

Head -
use the ginger punch and it is more sharp because it goes into the crevas under your chin for deeper penetration. Try it feel the difference.

Body -
I was taught that if used on the torso, the knuckles fit between your ribs comfortably letting the energy go deeper inside you having greater effect than your normal palm.
But to some apples and pears, its all in the user :)

[couch]

The ginger fist is seen in Biu Jee in the section after the three Biu Sau's. We place both hands in front of our chest and throw the hands forward with long-arm energy, then swing both arms to one side and return to the centerline with a ginger fist. Ginger fist can be quite effective at attacking the opponents arms. If done well, it can have a nice numbing effect. Of course, like all weapons, it's use can be modified to suit the individual.

I'm not qualitfied to correct your interpretations, but I am happy to share some of my own.

Peace

Our interpretation of the Biu Jee is to use it when not only is your Centreline off of your opponents centreline, but your arms are in various positions too. We feel that the Biu Jee accounts for all hand postions where your centreline/motherline is not pointing in the right direction. We use the Ginger Fist to attack the kidney while returning to the centreline.

Here is a video of the Biu Jee by one of Sunny Tang's students whom resides in Calgary, Alberta:
http://www.vingtsun.ca/vingtsun/forms/bj/index.html

All the best,
Kenton Sefcik

[KPM]

Hey Andrew!

Try rock climbing sometime. Your fingers and related muscles and joints WILL get conditioned, whether you want them to or not.
What about all those KF movies with guys thrusting their hands into woks full of heated gravel? They weren't digging for buried treasure.
A "one finger" lift used to be a staple of old-time circus strongmen. There are lots of web pages related to grip training and finger strength.

---Ok, you've got me there! :) But we are talking about a knuckle strike, not a grab.

I personally can't see such development as an effective use of limited training time. If I wanted to cause the sort of damage the phoenix eye is supposed to cause, I'd rather use some sort of yawara type implement, or run the guy over with my car (or better yet, someone else's car). You're not an ape, use a tool.

---We agree on that! :) But I do think the phoenix eye strike is very useful in close, to soft targets, using "short power." Since you are contacting with one knuckle rather than the whole fist, it concentrates the force of the strike into the target. Hence it makes good use of the close in "short power."

As someone else said, you're just as likely to damage yourself as the other unless you work these hand formations really hard, and I question the ROI thereof.

---I don't work all these conditioning drills, and I don't feel like I would damage myself. :p But I think you are more likely to damage yourself than the opponent if you use this strike inappropriately.

In Xingyi and other styles where I have seen the phoenix eye, the second knuckle of the index finger is used to strike.

---I agree.

The name "phoenix eye", I was told,comes about because when you look downward at the vertical PE fist, the folds of the fingers and skin around them resemble an eye. This doesn't happen with other hand formations.

---I hadn't heard that before. Thanks for the info.

I practice a dragon style form where the second knuckle of the middle finger is used as a striking point, but that was never referred to as a phoenix eye.

---Again, I agree. That is not the phoenix eye fist. I have heard it referred to as the "Dragon's Head fist."

Keith

[stuartm]

Hi all,

At a seminar years ago, Sifu Ip Chun said his father took it out of the system as it ws too dangerous, but he didnt go into any detail so i'm wondering whether it was a throw away answer:confused:

Point-striking is near on impossible in a real-life conflict anyway. The average fight is extremely spontaneous and over before you know it. Your reaction, timing, footwork and skill will see you through. If you manage to hit a series of 'dim mak' points in the destruction of your opponent then let me know, as i will quite happily learn from you !!!!!:D

Stu:)

[Matrix]

Ok, but that action is a wan laup sau followed by a punch to the mid section(as I was taught). That strike can also be a chop or open plam strike to the mid section, chest or face.
If that indeed is what is considered the ginger fist then it is the first time I have heard of anyone reffer to it as such.
Also, by the way Liddel describes his ginger fist it sounds like it more resembles the swiping strike found in a panther or tiger style, but instead of a swiping motion the second set of knuckles are used as the contact point and the motion used is such as to where the knuckles are being driving into a soft area.
Yes, Liddel's description sounds about right to me, and that is the action we use in the section of Biu Jee that I was referring to. We don't do a lap sau, or chop or open palm strike, but hey............ it's just a form. ;)

[Liddel]

I dare not assume no one has used the Ginger punch in combat or in practice.

so again -
How about you guys - Im curious about timing and use ?
And what forces are at work ?

I mentioned two ways i use it. These are formal uses derived from the form. Simple and obvious.
How about someone elses experience ?

[KPM]

I dare not assume no one has used the Ginger punch in combat or in practice.

so again -
How about you guys - Im curious about timing and use ?
And what forces are at work ?

I mentioned two ways i use it. These are formal uses derived from the form. Simple and obvious.
How about someone elses experience ?

Sounds like you are using the "point" of the knuckles as a striking surface....which would essentially make it a "leopard's paw" punch. I learned it as using the flat surface of the fingers on the palm side of the fist rather than the "point" of the knuckles to strike with a "rapping" motion using a strong wrist snap. Its almost like striking with a "Jao Sau" or "running hand", but rather than using the palm, you use the fist. The most obvious application to me, is when you are in close and have opened the opponent up the middle with a tan sau. Then, rather than withdrawing to strike with the tan sau arm, you simply pivot and strike inward to his temple with the ginger fist. As I said before, personally I don't find it to be that important of a strike. I find the phoenix eye strike far more useful.

And again to clarify as I stated in my previous post.......the strike in the Chum Kiu form that some of you seem to be describing is not the ginger fist, its the "drilling punch." The ginger fist (at least as Fong sifu teaches it) is found in the Biu Gee form....both arms shoot out to front with a grabbing motion, pivot to the side keeping elbows locked, pivot back to center pulling one arm back to beside the chest while the other performs the ginger fist striking inward to the centerline, strike forward with an inverted palm, withdraw to beside the chest.

Keith

[Airdrawndagger]

Yes.
That is what me and Matrix are talking about, however my view of that action is a won lap or double grab motion. Both hands shoot out and grab the left arm and pull them out of position and attack with the punch back to center which in this case would be a strike to the mid section. First to the left side, then to the right. This punch is just that a punch with a vairation of the hand formation. This is because it is the fastest punch formation you can do when you are off centerline and wish to strike back at your opponent. That strike can also be a palm strike or chop to the head, chest, or abdomin.
Also, with the introduction to such a punch, it is now clear that you use your whole body to strike back at the centerline, kind of like a hook punch found in boxing(similar in that you use your body in a twisting motion).
I work that punch all the time on the heavy bag and let me tell you it is VERY powerful, more powerful than the straight punch and perhaps just as powerful as the drilling punch when performed properly because of the fact that you use a twisting motion with the punch.

I understand that we seem to have been taught slight variations of that part in the form (and im sure others parts as well) and that is fine and to be expected, but it is very interesting to hear of these variations and describe our different POVs.
Great disscussions BTW.:)

Liddel,

I have not had the opportunity to use your variation of the ginger fist at all, let alone durring sparring or actual combat!:p

[anerlich]

The ginger fist works very well when you have a guy in your guard on the groung and are trying to dig that hand under their armpit to set up the cutting armbar, or get them to move their arm to the centre to allow you to set up a sweep.

;)

[Liddel]

Kpm wrote
"the strike in the Chum Kiu form that some of you seem to be describing is not the ginger fist, its the "drilling punch." "

Careful KPM were not all the same :)

This is why i was pushing this line of discussion, your statement does not suit my situation, however we share some attributes.

In my Chum Kiu, the action from the bong Sao 'is' the ginger punch but it has a drilling motion as well as a pivot at the wrist adding inch power, with the Elbow from Bong snapping into the center with a slight lift towards the target.
The Drilling motion is the most important power source IMO.

This is why i want to hear about the forces at work.... we have similar looking actions perhaps but the same forces are not necessarily the same or in some cases they are.

P.S Just to share my form KPM

Biu Gee form....both arms shoot out to front with a grabbing motion, pivot to the side keeping elbows locked 'outside hand is grabbing inside hand pushes with the palm', pivot back to center pulling one arm back to beside the chest while the other performs the ginger fist striking inward to the centerline,'Tan Sao' then strike forward with an inverted palm, 'Huen Sao' withdraw to beside the chest.

Airdrawndagger wrote -
"Also, with the introduction to such a punch, it is now clear that you use your whole body to strike back at the centerline, kind of like a hook punch found in boxing(similar in that you use your body in a twisting motion)."

Bingo ! with this in mind it is a very easy action to use, but i myself find it much easier to apply with bare hands than gloves.

Just to clarify it 'is' like a hook for me however my elbow does not fly outside my body like a boxers hook can, it is close to my body drawing support from my torso.
Vt has no flying elbows.... :)

[KPM]

Hey Liddel!

"the strike in the Chum Kiu form that some of you seem to be describing is not the ginger fist, its the "drilling punch." "

Careful KPM were not all the same :)

---No doubt! :p

This is why i was pushing this line of discussion, your statement does not suit my situation, however we share some attributes.

In my Chum Kiu, the action from the bong Sao 'is' the ginger punch but it has a drilling motion as well as a pivot at the wrist adding inch power, with the Elbow from Bong snapping into the center with a slight lift towards the target.
The Drilling motion is the most important power source IMO.

---What you are describing is the "drilling punch" as I mentioned before. Now granted....you can put various fist forms (including a "leopard's paw fist" at the end of it, but IMHO that section of the CK form is still meant to teach a drilling action or dynamic......very different than the section of the BG form that we have both described. And again, like I stated...you can hold the fist in the same position, but striking with the end of the 2nd knuckles and striking with the flat on the palm side is two very different things. The way I learned it (and your mileage may very) the knuckle strike is more of a "leopard's paw" and does go well with the drilling punch. The strike with the flat of the knuckles on the palm side is the "ginger fist"....which is what I thought we were talking about. The dynamic for using the ginger fist is thus different and fits well with the theme of the entire BG form. It is a recovery to the centerline while striking from an odd angle. You can put practically any fist formation you want at the end of the drilling punch, but the same is not true of the dynamic for delivering the ginger fist, which IMHO is what distinguishes it.



Biu Gee form....both arms shoot out to front with a grabbing motion, pivot to the side keeping elbows locked 'outside hand is grabbing inside hand pushes with the palm', pivot back to center pulling one arm back to beside the chest while the other performs the ginger fist striking inward to the centerline,'Tan Sao' then strike forward with an inverted palm, 'Huen Sao' withdraw to beside the chest.

---Yes. Essentially the same. :) But imagine doing that returning punch to the center and striking with the point of the knuckles rather than the flat....either your elbow flies out, or your wrist is over flexed. Try doing it with the phoenix eye fist or the regular sun fist....same effect. Now try doing a regular centerline straight punch and hitting with the flat of the knuckles (the ginger fist)...it doesn't work. This is why the fist form and the dynamic for delivering it is specifically trained in the BG form. That dynamic is not trained in the CK form. At least that's my perspective. You can take it or leave it. :D

Keith

[Liddel]

Interesting points KPM


Just to clarify my action....

My ginger punch following Bong Sao in Chum Kiu has an angle at the wrist of 20 degrees approx. The drilling motion is present.

However in BJ my angle when comming back to the center is 90 degrees.
Which overcomes your point of the flying elbow.

Also i personally never ever hit with the flat part of the knuckles, in both forms my contact point is the 2nd knuckle, which is our formal way of using the Ginger punch.
This is because the point is used to penetrate a soft area on your opponent, where as i see the using the flat part of the knuckles as you mention as being for a whole different situation and target area, just like the swiping motion you mention. :)

From what i understand to be our differences, you believe that my angle of 90 degrees is "over flexed" , would this be a fair conclusion ?

The 'ginger punch' is just a term to describe the way in which you form your hand into a specific shape (if you will) its use will vary from Art to Art and obviously from lineage to lineage within our own art of VT, but just to share my way its use also varies from CK to BJ in my VT Style.

I get what your saying and we have many similarities but a few small differences, very interesting :rolleyes:

Thanks for enduldging me :cool:

Anyone else share the actions described be me with regards to the ginger punch in CK and BJ ? or do i stand alone ?
:)

[KPM]

Hey Liddel!


However in BJ my angle when comming back to the center is 90 degrees.
Which overcomes your point of the flying elbow.

---Yes, but not the over-flexed wrist.

Also i personally never ever hit with the flat part of the knuckles, in both forms my contact point is the 2nd knuckle, which is our formal way of using the Ginger punch.

---Ok. Then that would be indistinguishable from the "leopard" punch used in various other CMAs.


From what i understand to be our differences, you believe that my angle of 90 degrees is "over flexed" , would this be a fair conclusion ?

---Yes! :eek: That is a weak and vulnerable position for the wrist. No other Wing Chun technique (at least that I am aware of) involves flexing the wrist to 90 degrees with impact. Would you strike with the "sun" fist with your wrist flexed 90 degrees?

Keith

[Tom Kagan]

Interesting. I too am from Yip Man/Moy Yat lineage and we use the ginger fist in Biu Jee. Go figure..


If memory serves, Sifu threw away the ginger fist in the 1970s after emigrating to the U.S.

Students who learned before that point were taught it. Those who stuck around afterward made their own decisions to drop teaching it or not. A few students afterward chose to reincorporate it.

Personally, I find ginger fist essentially useless. I do, however, find the pheonix eye minorly useful. But, if I'm that good in a situation were I get to pick and choose my targets to such a degree, I have to consider why to even bother hitting in the first place. ;)

[CFT]

But if I do recall, one of Yip Man's early Foshan students (Luen Gai) also has several phoenix eye fists in his forms.Keith, you remember correctly. I train with Lun sifu's UK/European representative Derek Frearson. So far I have only learnt SNT and CK, but all the sun-character punches are replaced by the phoenix eye punch. I haven't seen the ginger fist yet.

[Liddel]

KPM wrote - (talking about ginger punch with 90 degrees at the wrist)

---Yes! That is a weak and vulnerable position for the wrist. No other Wing Chun technique (at least that I am aware of) involves flexing the wrist to 90 degrees with impact. Would you strike with the "sun" fist with your wrist flexed 90 degrees?

No - because the target ares and power source is different. But....

You make a good point Keith, however ill throw some related points out there, from my perspective.

1st - BJ holds actions that break VT rules/ideas for emergency situations, or rather - having actions not seen in other forms/ or that differ form other forms.

2nd - When i actually apply the ginger punch (from BJ not CK) the angle at my wrist is not always (actually rarely) a perfect 90 degrees but usually between 20 and 45. We all know there is the "formal way" used in forms and the practical way to be used in the dynamic of a fighting situation.

It is 90 degrees in the form to train a full range of motion for the wrist maximising training of the type of power used in the wrist for that action.

and lastly, i think nowadays certain actions are dropping away in use because practitioners do not have the amount of time practising the skill/power to support said actions.
I believe the Ginger punch to be one of these actions. My Master trained many many hours a day, every day of the week when he was learning, so has developed the necessary force for such an action, where as i am a busy man with limited practice time so my force is no where near as much.
Also thats why i mentioned earlier that i believe he gained the necessary wrist force from extensive Baat Chum Do Training.

In short - to me saying "That is a weak and vulnerable position for the wrist" is a very true statment. However i believe someone could practice enough to be able to use this action effectivly.

[Matrix]

If memory serves, Sifu threw away the ginger fist in the 1970s after emigrating to the U.S. .........<snip>...... I do, however, find the pheonix eye minorly useful. But, if I'm that good in a situation were I get to pick and choose my targets to such a degree, I have to consider why to even bother hitting in the first place. ;)
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the clarification on the ginger fist.

Funny thing about your comment on the Pheonix Eye. My Sihing said something VERY similar with respect to accuracy requirement during last evenings training. :D