NPM v. SPM

[Trey]

Hello everyone, im new here and was wondering what the difference is between these two styles. Ive noticed the topic brought up in another section of the board recently, but there was no real conclusive answer.

[Sifu Darkfist]

Southern styles have the characteristics needed to fight on the southern terrain which is full of foot hills mountains etc. thus the stances are wider which exacts more stability, however it does sacrifice mobility to some extent. Also they originally spent more time on boats fighting in naval battles due to river traffic being far higher in the south so this also influenced the lower stances.

I have also been informed through reliable sources that the Southern Chinese are considerably smaller than those in the north so many aspects of their combat arts reflect compensation for these realities.

Southern styles for the most part contain much more hard style than soft (although this is not always the case) systems that are derived out of the south tend to branch from Shaolin and retain much of the shoalin tendencies Such as Hung Gar, White Crane, Southern Praying Mantis etc.

There is also the factor of HonG KOng which is well known for injecting its own flavor into styles that end up on its shores, and in many ways can be considered not north or south in look and flavor but a strong combination of these and a raw city additive.
In the end thy are all good for different reasons and should all be respected equally.

[Trey]

Thank you darkfist, that was exactly what i was looking for.;)

[CHAZ]

Southern styles have the characteristics needed to fight on the southern terrain which is full of foot hills mountains etc. thus the stances are wider which exacts more stability, however it does sacrifice mobility to some extent. Also they originally spent more time on boats fighting in naval battles due to river traffic being far higher in the south so this also influenced the lower stances.

I have also been informed through reliable sources that the Southern Chinese are considerably smaller than those in the north so many aspects of their combat arts reflect compensation for these realities.

Southern styles for the most part contain much more hard style than soft (although this is not always the case) systems that are derived out of the south tend to branch from Shaolin and retain much of the shoalin tendencies Such as Hung Gar, White Crane, Southern Praying Mantis etc.

There is also the factor of HonG KOng which is well known for injecting its own flavor into styles that end up on its shores, and in many ways can be considered not north or south in look and flavor but a strong combination of these and a raw city additive.
In the end thy are all good for different reasons and should all be respected equally.

Good post

but I thought it was the Northern part of China that was hilly and mountanious, and that because of all the walking and having to wear heavy bulky clothing Northern styles tended to favour the legs.

While the Southern styles because of the hot humid weather and because it was mostly farming(rice) country with the farmers standing for hours squating in low stances in rice paddies developed strong low stances. Also like you said with some cases training on junks also meant low stances. Also with citys in the south being crowded and with buildings being close together hands were used more as there was less room for using footwork and high kicks.

Of course some people think this is just a popular story as it's well know that some styles of Southern Kung Fu can kick very well like Mok Gar and Hung Gar was famous for it no shadow kick. While Northern styles such as Northern Mantis and Hsing I for example are more famous for there hands.

[Sifu Darkfist]

I am actually looking at a map with relief right now there are far more mountains in populated areas in the center and south although there are mountains every where.
However i will say that the fact that there are Praying Mantis in the North and South proclaims the effectiveness in its own right.

[mantis108]

Well, here's what I could imagine:

The SPM guy (whatever styles) is going to assume a ready stance.

1) Feet about shoulder width, toes inward and gripping the floor, and relatively high and relaxed yet all slacks in the body structure tightened.

2) Hands up in some kind of a guard (bai Jong Sau) most likely right pheonix eye punch and left hand a palm.

3) Elbows down and closing access to the center line.

4) Head leveled to lower (chin tugged). Chest hollow, back rounded, and Dan Tien is firm.

This would also have the hip a little more squarely facing the opponent. The advantage is the it will have all weapons available to him.

The NPM guy (say a TJPMer) is going to be mobile more or less in a Bi Shi (closing posture). He will be bringing in the Monkey disposition and footwork for searching an opening in the ready stance of the opponent.

Assuming there is not eye poking and groin shorts, here's what will happen.

Strategy for the SPM guy:

It is more than likely the SPM will wait for the other guy to initiate.

1) Stop Kick to the knee of the opponent and pheonix eye punch (PEP) to an openning of the opponent preferrably a weak point (ie throat)

2) Toe trap and PEP in rapid succession. Follow in if opp. retreats in time. Maintain straight line attacks.

3) If opp attemps to block punch while arm stretched out; clam down hard with elbows as breaks or with grinding motion to trap temporary. Or some types of hooking punch or down angled punch as "leaking" hand.

4) Keep opp in front and at bay. Don't want to give any access to the side or back. Stomp and stop kicks to distroy the opp's lower line attacks.

5) End fight as soon as possible. Use angle entry avoid getting hit as much as possible but will absorb punishment if need be (points deducted in that case).

6) use sallow, spit, surface, and sink to unbalance the opp in close range and to add more omph to the strikes.

Strategy for the NPM guy:

It is more than likely that the NPM guy will initiate some form of attack (ie a back hand slap.) and attempt a disciplined plan of offense.

1) will use the 12 key words with 5 types of Shou Fa (ie Gou Lou Cai, Fanche Lulu, Mo Pan Shou, etc..) for entry and take whatever that is available. Discipline takes over after the initial clash.

2) close gap as quickly as possible. Sticking and leaning as soon as an opening is availble. Using Shuai (throwing) and Na (grappling) to takedown.

3) Dodging, Deceiving, leaping and shifting to get to the side and/or back of opp.

4) In close range elbow hard and knee hard.

5) Takedown and establish control. Ground fighting if necessary.

BTW, that's only my perspective and experience as NPM guy (CCK TCPM). Others may drastically different. I would take as long as it needs to finish the fight. My motto is "make haste without being hasty", "using slow to yield to the fast" and "Don't fight fire with fire, be like water...".

The rest of course is depended upon the contestants and it's highly speculative until proven with actual match.

Mantis108

Although geography and genetics might have helped in sharping the styles but the developmental path is mainly determined by the practical application of the them.

Traditionally or historically, there are 5 major professions that a martial artist can enter - Military, Teaching, body guards, armed escorts, and green forrest.

The military policy of Ming dynasty gave a lot of stability to the country but at the same time it pretty much promote the Men Pai (System and Style) idea and deepened the conflicts between systems and styles. The military also influenced the martial arts mainly in the south due to the Japanese pirate problem. For example, spear, stick and saber forms are uniformly present in almost every style and 2 men set of any weapon against spear is almost common in every southern style. Why? Because spear was the standard issue for soliders throughout the time since ming dynasty. If the military were to come after you, it is more than likely that you will fight against a spear or 2. So it's important to know that just in case. Also if you have to train some one fast you will want him to know everything with one thing both for the military or rebels. That is to say the hand to hand and weapon prefereably would share some thing in common (ie in theory or applications). So it is ideal to have double cleaver and stick fighting along side with the form(s). This you can found in styles such as Weng Chun (Yong Chun) - double cleavers are the parents and the staff is the teacher, etc... I think Gojo Ryu Karate also has the same idea in their Gekisai (sp?) form also.

Anyway, the core theory of the system IMHO would be the primary driving force of the developmental path and the geography and genetics are only secondary.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Three Harmonies]

Geography reasons are BS.
Jake :)

[Sifu Darkfist]

if thats true than how do we explain cantonese and mandarin? I guess the mountain barrier and uncrossable rivers for centuries preventing widespread interaction are all bs. hey how about extreme size differences in people, or food?

Geography has nothing to do with differences?

ALL THESE things mentioned have direct influence on style

[J-hon]

Southern styles have the characteristics needed to fight on the southern terrain which is full of foot hills mountains etc. thus the stances are wider which exacts more stability, however it does sacrifice mobility to some extent. Also they originally spent more time on boats fighting in naval battles due to river traffic being far higher in the south so this also influenced the lower stances.

Maybe for for most southern styles, but certainly not in Jook Lum Southern Praying Mantis. The stance is in fact about shoulder width apart (although I prefer it slightly wider).

As for punches, in Jook Lum SPM, srikes are usually up close and short. The long strikes that are present do have do not lock the elbow. Emphasis is on being up close within a six inch or so striking range. Punches do not use muscular strength to create power but rather a sudden reflex type motion (I can best explain it like this.... If someone were to put a match out on your hand... imagine how fast the arm would move by reflex.) I can't say to much more on that since I haven't been able to completely control this. But if you want to look at something similar to one of our punches, watch Bruce Lee's one inch punch. Most importantly though.... the body is relaxed, except when contact is made.

Arms are the main weapons but we do have kicks which are low, below the waist.

These links can explain better:
http://www.reddragonkungfu.com/chuka.htm
http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/wushu/sm.html (very lengthy and informative)

Any SPM practicers want to add to or correct this?

I'd like to hear about Northern Praying Mantis strikes if anyone could elaborate.

J-Hon

[bungbukuen]

Sifu Darkfist,

Are you saying that factors like geography are more substantial than other ones like individual personality traits, society, demagrphics, politics, economics, war/military, technology, rival competition, and education?

[mpossoff]

Which PM style would resemble Tong Bei?

That's what I'm interested in.

Marc

[BeiTangLang]

Which PM style would resemble Tong Bei?

That's what I'm interested in.

Marc

Northern PM

[Sifu Darkfist]

Sifu Darkfist,

Are you saying that factors like geography are more substantial than other ones like individual personality traits, society, demagrphics, politics, economics, war/military, technology, rival competition, and education?

of course not, i would refer you back to mantis 108 and his post. However to up and deny geography as a major factor is false. Why then name them southern and northern? why not praying mantis one and 2 or something else. the point is China was for a long time very polarized and geography was a major player. as well as all that mantid put forth and everything else mentioned here. I just mentioned geography as my angle due to the mass polarization.

This is a question that has no single right answer just as most perspectives on history have none either.

[mantid1]

I think it comes down to who promoted their styles the most in a particular area. Then we have the off shoots of the foundation style.

It seems to me that Southern white crane, white eye brow, southern mantis and wing chun may have the same mother.

General statement of course.

I also like enjoy seeing the Karate styles that hold true the thier Chinese roots. Many techniques resemble these Southern styles. For example San Chin Kata. Looks alot like the san tsan of White crane.

Many legite Karate styles refer back the the southern styles including southern mantis. One of my x students is a "master" in tang soo do. He told me that one of thier forms is praying mantis. TSD has its roots in Okinawan Karate. After seeing the form I said "yep but Southern not Northern manties".

[Shadow Skill]

don't know much about northern mantis but, spm has 13 features that make it unique.
1 spm internal system. focus internal power rathern muscle strength
2 more techniques than most systems inc. sticky hands and feet
3 uses opponents strength aginst him/her
4 relys on feeling hands act as if they had eyes.....
5 each formula has a two or more person break down
6 learns to use each limb independantly of any other limb
7 fighting is relaxed conteniuos and flowing
8 techniques are practiced exactly the way they are used no show
9 spm is a short cut system
10 spm has more than one power
11 although spm practices high kicks prefer low kicks for combat
12 uses dim mak to produce injury or death
13 spm based on taoist pholosiphy, practioner requires no contious thought to react.

[bungbukuen]

Sifu Darkfist,

I am still not follow your posts. If you do not mind I have a few questions. Of course you do not have to answer any of them, but maybe hitting on one or key questions I think would be very helpful in further explaining your previous points. It would also help us newbies out alot. Thanks.

1. Aside from the simple North/South distinction could you explain how geography actually influenced the development of languages in China (Cantonese and Mandarin were your exmaples)? How does geogrpahy explain the fact there are multiple dialects all entirely different within the same region?

2. What is mass polarization and how does it affect the development of an MA systems technical characteristics? An example?

3. How much of a difference in size is there between people from the Northern and people from the south and what areas are we talking about specifically?

4. What aspects of being larger or smaller affect the development of an MA system? Can you give us some simple examples? Following up on that how would being smaller lead to somewhat less agile harder systems in the south, and how would being larger lead to softer more agile systems as you explained previously?

5. What southern systems use lower and wider stances and compare that to some northern counterparts? Can you give us some examples of specific stances?

6. Explain some of the technical merits of hard and soft in the martial arts? What majority of southern systems are characteristically harder? What majority of northern systems are softer?

7. Explain in more detail about the Hong Kong factor? And why is it not Northern or southern?


Thanks again. I am looking forward to fruitful post and am sure it will help all of us better understand the differences between Northern and Southern systems.

[Sifu Darkfist]

don't know much about northern mantis but, spm has 13 features that make it unique.
1 spm internal system. focus internal power rathern muscle strength
2 more techniques than most systems inc. sticky hands and feet
3 uses opponents strength aginst him/her
4 relys on feeling hands act as if they had eyes.....
5 each formula has a two or more person break down
6 learns to use each limb independantly of any other limb
7 fighting is relaxed conteniuos and flowing
8 techniques are practiced exactly the way they are used no show
9 spm is a short cut system
10 spm has more than one power
11 although spm practices high kicks prefer low kicks for combat
12 uses dim mak to produce injury or death
13 spm based on taoist pholosiphy, practioner requires no contious thought to react.
none of these make spm unique these are the things that are the same as npm
however your analysis of muscle is a bit off or at least as i was taught, i do not deny the souths internal ability but there is less leg mobility and flighty movement in the south, it doesnt weaken it it is just different with different goals.
The power subject needs its own thread but i will let someone like Mantis 108 or maybe the Count or YouKnowWho start that out they are the authorities on power (my master Doesnt post). if they dont i will do my best

[-N-]

1. Aside from the simple North/South distinction could you explain how geography actually influenced the development of languages in China (Cantonese and Mandarin were your exmaples)? How does geogrpahy explain the fact there are multiple dialects all entirely different within the same region?.I studied a bit of Chinese linguistics while in college, and actually, geography is cited as a key factor in development of dialects. Back in the times before automobiles and transporter rooms, geographical isolation... even within a "region", led to divergence of language, culture, and customs.

Geography has always been acknowledged as creating micro-environments supporting divergent evolution of biological systems as well as culture.


Are you saying that factors like geography are more substantial than other ones like individual personality traits, society, demagrphics, politics, economics, war/military, technology, rival competition, and education?Geography is at the root of all the other factors.

As far as the popular simplistic explanation relating to swamps vs. mountains... I'd have to agree that is more BS than not.

N.

[Sifu Darkfist]

Sifu Darkfist,

I am still not follow your posts. If you do not mind I have a few questions. Of course you do not have to answer any of them, but maybe hitting on one or key questions I think would be very helpful in further explaining your previous points. It would also help us newbies out alot. Thanks.

1. Aside from the simple North/South distinction could you explain how geography actually influenced the development of languages in China (Cantonese and Mandarin were your exmaples)? How does geogrpahy explain the fact there are multiple dialects all entirely different within the same region?

2. What is mass polarization and how does it affect the development of an MA systems technical characteristics? An example?

3. How much of a difference in size is there between people from the Northern and people from the south and what areas are we talking about specifically?

4. What aspects of being larger or smaller affect the development of an MA system? Can you give us some simple examples? Following up on that how would being smaller lead to somewhat less agile harder systems in the south, and how would being larger lead to softer more agile systems as you explained previously?

5. What southern systems use lower and wider stances and compare that to some northern counterparts? Can you give us some examples of specific stances?

6. Explain some of the technical merits of hard and soft in the martial arts? What majority of southern systems are characteristically harder? What majority of northern systems are softer?

7. Explain in more detail about the Hong Kong factor? And why is it not Northern or southern?


Thanks again. I am looking forward to fruitful post and am sure it will help all of us better understand the differences between Northern and Southern systems.

Fabulous, well although i am well versed in baiting through my historical studies i will bite due to the simple fact that there are no definitives in history except that it will be inconsistent.

You are clearly a well-read individual so i will gladly entertain your questions with my meager understanding (I am only thirty-five and have years of understanding if god allows left to endure).
i will try to be systematic.

1) China was a conglomerate of existing tribes that started out near the center of there location today (i.e. middle kingdom). The terrain of china was such that the actual talk between north and south was limited, due to lack of contact. However messengers would make the trek to deliver common writing (very logical i might add with pictures and phonetics combined) to the vassals or allies in the other region.
Later the first to emperor made this the written standard and they shared the writing and not the spoken word. Tribal animosity was very common in the Middle Kingdom, they were all reluctant to accept others spoken words as gospel thus differences in dialect from region to region in close proximity. (You can juxtapose this with the United States Try taking a New Yorker into Alabama).

2) I was taught that the polarization is directly related to proliferation. first there are many exceptions (or outliers if you will), however if we look at the goal of many southern martial arts societies in comparison to northern we see a united effort against the northern Master or the Emperor that in order to succeed demands the effort of large numbers of men with lethal skill.
The problem is, not many martial artists, instead you have many more peasants than fighters. Consequently, the troops are taught simple yet very effective techniques that are easily transferred from teacher to student, in direct contrast to Northern cultivation of guards for decades. As you can see the polarization is the heart of the difference. (GOD there is so much more to this point) it calls for a book.

3) Well does Yao Ming conjure images? My Master is 5 10 or so in his prime and built strong and broad, Master Marlon Ma is very tall and strong, Master Jason Tsou is not real tall but is very muscular and powerfully built. Gm Liu was no James either,
i am about the size of GM Su height wise (he has a better figure than I do).
Generally in a genetic sense, the ****her south you get in east Asia the shorter the people get. This is nothing new to this thread, Ask any Vietnam vet.
many Vietnamese have the same bloodline as southern Chinese (go figure?)

4) Ouch carpel tunnnnnel
The most important of your questions and i thought no one would ever catch.
With the proper credit going to my Master (Master Yang Xiao Dong) Which basically means he is the guru source I reference, it means everything!!!!
A 300-pound martial artist must move in straight in with simple direct moves in order to overwhelm his opponent with mass and thus contol initiative. A 100 pound Mantis Female needs to strike at 45-degree angles in and out at soft targets using the opponents mass to add luster to the strikes. A man that is 6.5 needs to rely on techniques that do not expose his weakness, (that of his stability in stance due to inalienable physics. GM Su has the ability to enter the center and destroy and get back out to move anywhere do to his size and skill).
Gm Liu will explode into a one punch off an eye attack and disable you on “touch and go” (same as Master Yang) and this i have felt, to a lesser degree (on film i might add).
"Each and every student must be taught by their personal attributes" (Yang Xiao Dong -my paraphrase-) anyway, I hope you get the idea.

5) Hung Gar, Shoalin Do, Hung Fut, Fut Gar, spm etc Horse stance, bow and arrow stance, reverse bow. Here is a link www.donniamstudio.com (hung fut) you get the picture

6) Hung Gar the backbone of many Southern systems is predominantly hard and externally powerful. However there is no CMA that I know that is only one or the other. as for north external styles Mi Zhong, Ba Gua, Pi Gua Xing Yi all have there influence on Ba Ji or NPM. and all have considerable soft sides. The south uses it as well, Fut Gar is internal etc.

7) “Hong Kong” is an animal all of its own. Here the world of high economic development took its true form, one of the most expensive places to live in the world. Anyway enough of pleasuring HK and down to science.
No offense to those that used to teach in the P.R.C but the fact is money draws masters (and money is in the P.R.C in large amounts now).
The money draws the masters to others parts of the world such as the USA which has a huge compliment of incredible Masters such as Yang Xiao Dong, Su Yu Chang, Marlon Ma, Sun De Yao, YouKnowWho Brendan Lai, Henry Chung, Wang Ren Gong, Nick Gracnin, Nick Scrima, Master Chan, Master Lin Master Schulz Master Tai Yim< Benny Ming, Don Niam
...well you get the picture.
Consequently, Hong Kong is the Money in China, has been the top of the Tigers for years, and therefore has attracted the best as well. its much easier to move 500 miles than 10,000+. I know you didn’t read all this and I don’t blame you, but i will say i owe it to a fellow martial artist to share what i hae and to revise it if you debunk me with definitive evidence.
Hong Kong is a real hell for the fighter; It is New York with lots of great Kung fu and a whole lot less restriction on who can use it. (Although the P.R.C has cracked down on Guns).

i hope i gave you a good solid target, or if nothing else you can see other perspectives on the arts such as my meager lifetime of practice.

[xifanghong]

BBK raised some great ideas there. And Darkfist was very good to reply at length.

The idea of Southern Fist/ Northern Leg, in all it's incarnations, is nothing more than a myth. In "The South" SPM, Wing Chun and Bai Mei exist alongside Hung Gar and Choi Lei Fat. Our own Northern Praying Mantis has stances regonisable from so-called 'lower' systems and is not littered with high kicks and butterfly twists.

If we accept that the styles are not really split in that North South way then it goes that discussion of the reasons why they are must be discounted too. For example, how tall or short people are.

[xifanghong]

2) I was taught that the polarization is directly related to proliferation. first there are many exceptions (or outliers if you will), however if we look at the goal of many southern martial arts societies in comparison to northern we see a united effort against the northern Master or the Emperor that in order to succeed demands the effort of large numbers of men with lethal skill.

The problem is, not many martial artists, instead you have many more peasants than fighters. Consequently, the troops are taught simple yet very effective techniques that are easily transferred from teacher to student, in direct contrast to Northern cultivation of guards for decades. As you can see the polarization is the heart of the difference. (GOD there is so much more to this point) it calls for a book.



I have a lot of time on my hands right now so I'd like to have a go at debating this one.

Polarization is directly related to proliferation: So you mean that the more of something there is, the more likely it is to split into two opposing camps?

A picture of the South organising to fight the master in the North seems to fit with the first period of the Qing dynasty so often portrayed in Shaw Movies. But I don't think it represents Chinese history. During the history of China the capital has shifted. It was famously in Chang'an, the West of the kingdom. In the days of General Yue Fei it was in Hangzhou, the South. How does the emergence of the monastries such as Shaolin and Wudang fit into this polarization also?

Polarization is the heart of the difference: You mean that splitting into two groups of opposing opinion is the cause of difference? I Like that one.

What I'm interested in is Sifu Darkfists original idea that physical geography split Chinese Martial Arts into two camps North and South. I don't want to seem aggressive but going into politics is just skipping to another idea having not answered the first.

By my poor logic, if physical geography split CMA into North and South then there should be a huge mountain range East to West right along the banks of the Chang Jiang.

Any ideas?

I'm interested in further debate from all. My own opinion is in my post above this one.

[WanderingMonk]

here's a link to a linguistic map of china
link (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=1ww2cxs8u99i4?method=4&dsname=Wikipedia+Images&dekey=China+linguistic+map.jpg&gwp=8&sbid=lc02b&linktext=%3Cimg%20src%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fcontent.an swers.com%2Fmain%2Fcontent%2Fwp%2Fen%2Fthumb%2F5%2 F57%2F300px-China_linguistic_map.jpg%22%20alt%3D%22Map%20of%20 Linguistic%20Groups%22%20height%3D%22377%
22%20width%3D%22300%22%3E)

Now, draw on it where various northern and southern martial arts originate

then, consider cause for movement of idea.

- migration
- exchange, intermingle, trade

migration occurs during war, famine, etc
trade occurs near the border regions.

exchange of idea cause by migration is more penetrating, Mass influc of new people bring with them their own culture. Chinese resturants can be found in many places in the US

trade, exchange spread out much more slowly. unless the new idea is so much superior than the old it completely replace the old. KFC resturants now can be found in many wealthy area of China (in this case, better packaging, have pretty good flavors and good marketing).

if one view it on that basis, then certain northern martial is indigenous to the north because it is practiced within the northern population.

certain arts are prevalent in the south because they are the arts indigenous to the southern region.

the separation will be both sociological, economical, and geographical.
i.e., northerners and southerners don't share the same "mother tongue" hence language barrier.
ecomical, you simply can't afford to travel that far in china in the old day unless you are well off or soldiers fighting in war, or security guards for carvans.

a linguistic map is a better guide than your regular "geographical" map. The linguistic map show you the net reult of migration, intermingle, etc. Those language that survive are the one with sufficient population and economical and sociological support to fend off the competitor. It also is a better indication of cultural sphere of influences. so, you can have two art evolving relatively near each other, but because they fall on different side of cultural sphere of influence, they might end up looking very different.

does any of this make any sense, I wouldn't know. it is just my two cents.

[-N-]

does any of this make any sense, I wouldn't know. it is just my two cents.Excellent explanation. Makes great sense. These are the points that were made by my Chinese Linguistics professor relative to evolution of dialects and other cultural elements.

N.

[bungbukuen]

WanderingMonk - great post.

N - nice post. I also agree geography is a root, but to use it in such a braod contextual sense wont get us any closer to more reasonable answers. We still have to narrow things down and talk specfics

Darkfist - you are just creating more confusion.

In your original post you talked about geography in the context of “hills and mountains” so to speak. Later on in your follow up in points one a two you shifted to geography in the context of political systems, economic sys, social sys, and demagraphics. This is more along the lines of the points Mantis108, N, WanderMonk, and myself talked about.

Yao Ming is actually from Shanghai if I am not mistaken, and his height is no where near to being representative of any region in China, north or south.

On point number four you already admitted to contradicitng yourself, but then framed it back up as your original statement. I do not know if that was intentional.

I think Xifanghong in a follow up post talked about the depth of stances which I think was much more accurate. There are a lot of northern and southern systems that all use deep stances, not to mention a number of northern and southern systems that also use more upright stances.

In point six you still never mentioned the defining characteristics of what constitutes an external system and an internal system. In doing so you sitll have not braught any clarity to your original statemetn that southern systems were harder and more external than northern systems.

On point seven you talked about HK’s economic system and it's attraction. I agree and see where you are trying to go, but once again this is out of context from your original post when you were talking about geography relating to hills, mountains, and swamps.

People like Mantis 108, N, Xifanhong, and Wandering Monk all brought a much clearer and more reasonable perspective to the entire thing.

[xifanghong]

In repsonse to the map post.

Firstly, I agree with BBK, that wandering monk's post is a good contribution as it deals with a specific aspect and offers something meaty to the debate.

The map itself is flawed as a model for studying cultural migration in China and grossly oversimplified.

Map link again: Linguistic groups in China (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/china_ling_90.jpg)

It includes Wu and Yue in the same Southern band, green on the map. There is a linguistic basis for this grouping. But for the practical purposes of our debate it not a valid grouping. For example if you put a Shanghainese speaker (Wu) and a Cantonese speaker (Yue) into a room with no pre-knowledge of each others language they would have the same difficulties as if one of them was from the North.

Also, the map shows Yellow for Mandarin in parts of Yunan.

Mandarin is present as a first language in Yunnan for purely policatical reasons. If we were to apply that reasoning evenly accross the map, then you'd have to make Guangdong and Shanghai in the Yellow band too.

The map is inconsistant in this aspect and is misleading.

Also, if you were to take this map as an extra insight into the spread of other cultural practices you'd also have to conclude that an idea of North and South is invalid, as the map shows more areas than only North and South. Especially how the dominant colour band of the North takes up large swarthes of the South West.

"Northern Mantis" famously spread out of Shandong when Jing Wu formed and invited Fan Xu Dong to join them in Shanghai. This is a political reason.

There are numerous oral traditions about Southern Mantis that suggest it was often kept within the Hakka language group. Maybe a SPM practitioner could give us more info about that?

[David]

They shared "nothing with nobody". Hakka were despised nearly everywhere they settled, and constantly had to defend themselves from adjacent populations trying to unsettle them.

Hakka women learned the MA as the men did; they were close-knit, suspicious and private in order to survive.

Do a search on "Hakka-Punti Wars". Hakka were the Northern Guest (aka gypsies/refugees) and Punti were ...everyone else they met!

Rgds,
David

[Sifu Darkfist]

Confused? well understand that historians more often than not, are prone to look at multiple reasons and describe them in conjunction with the results observed.
Now we are all really confused. The chinese are notorious for keeping inaccurate historical records without different perspectives or without proper contexts.

In fact historically, they almost never give credit to ideas in journal writing and did not observe plagaristic rules in early days.
so i will maintain that number one, you can never prove me or anyone else wrong ,and likewise you cannot even prove yourself partially right, you can just attack the arguement.
Which is fine, you disagree i am happy you do because i enjoy the many different positions. however you have not offered evidence to convince me that the terrain, rivers mountain ranges etc. as well as genetic differences did not have any influence on the different styles of praying mantis. :)