I could weep - the beginning of the end... [Archive]

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mantis108

10-31-2005, 05:51 PM

Found this thread on the CyberKwoon:

http://www.cyberkwoon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=128660&sid=77abccfe47603b46e3f5c32aef695d02#128660

People actually believe that Qixing Tanglang is an "original" Henan Shaolin Temple form that is taught by the monks. :eek: Only the monks are teaching the "real deal"... OMG!

10 more years, they will believe every style outside of the Shaolin disney land are fakes. *Sigh* PRC communist BS is obviously very effective.

Is ignorance really bliss?! Just as I predicted, the beginning of the end is at hand... Man, I could weep! 8*(

Be well and be prepared...

Mantis108

NorthernShaolin

10-31-2005, 06:03 PM

Mantis 108,

As you are aware, everything goes in circles. In 20 years, TCMA will make a come back and the only real teachers left will be people like you and I and others on this forum, who will be teaching small selective groups in our garages or basements. By then TCMA will be known as the real deal and people will be seeking the small schools that teaches the TCMA.

libingshao

10-31-2005, 06:12 PM

Mantis108,

I think that this battle can be won by steadfastly teaching the art as NorthernShaolin has said. However, I also believe that research based publishing by reputable people can counter much of this. It is a shame the even today most of the publishing of Mantis Boxing material is in Chinese. No qualified Western writer has stepped forward to combat such things. Maybe someone will see this as a challenge and engage in the public arena.

Libingshao

Lu Bu

10-31-2005, 06:28 PM

Looks like they just slap Shaolin onto whatever Tanglang style they want. What's wrong with people, today? I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but not everything in the martial arts is solely the product of one source. Shaolin is not the origin of every martial art ever invented. :rolleyes:

godzillakungfu

10-31-2005, 06:36 PM

What??!! Shaolin wasn't the creator of all fighting ever. You just shattered my world.:eek:

Lu Bu

10-31-2005, 07:00 PM

I know, I know...hard to believe. I hope you can cope. :D

-N-

10-31-2005, 07:48 PM

Robert,

Don't sweat it. What does it matter what the misinformed think? Plenty of that to go around. Represent the truth and leave it at that. If people want to argue, just smile, nod your head, and continue doing what you do.

It's like with those that don't know how to empty their cup. They go to a teacher, all full of themselves and demand to be taught. The teacher might ask them to demonstrate their skill. Afterwards he'll say politely, "There's nothing that I can teach you!" The person takes it as a compliment and leaves. The rest know otherwise.

Until then, Garage and Park Fu. Video Store Fu even. That's what matters.

N.

mantid1

10-31-2005, 08:05 PM

I wouldnt worry to much about the shoalin 7* Mr. 108.

I am still more worried about the korean arts.

People are already brain washed.

My favorite telephone conversation:

"Could you tell me how much your Karate classes are"?

"This is not a Karate school Maam, it is Chinese Kung Fu".

......"Oh, so how much are your karate classes"?

"Our classes are $65.00 a month Maam".

xifanghong

11-01-2005, 02:47 AM

Mantis 108

During the revolution change was unstoppable in the mainland. It's a pity that sights were turned on kung fu at that time.

The beginning of the end has happened a long time before this latest news you bring us. The beginning of the end was when magazines and media, and schools in areas where traditional was still alive - the USA, for example - started to accept and publish Modern Wushu on their pages and in their halls.

RAF

11-01-2005, 05:44 AM

On the other hand, what has Taiwan and its Government done to preserve the "cultural treasure of China"?

As a devil's advocate let me pose the question: China has also produced the great martial arts historian, Ma Ming Da and what has Taiwan done to advance the history of traditional Chinese martial arts?

Even among the rich, its hard to find a martial arts patron as you find in art itslef..

Its great fun to argue politics, but the subject is a lot more complex.

The truth is that traditional Chinese martial arts, as an important part of Chinese culture, is not valued greatly regardless of what the political system is in place.

In 1998, I had to sit through the martial arts demonstration at the Shaolin Temple in Songshan and it made me sick---pure garbage. On the other hand, at least Qingdao and Yan Tai are attempting to preserve the traditional martial art of Taiji Meihua Pryaing Mantis--I wish Taiwan would wake up.

That is the sadness---the deteriorating status of traditional Chinese martial arts.

RAF

11-01-2005, 06:20 AM

Michael Dasargo

11-01-2005, 10:50 AM

Hi Robert and all,

It truly is heartbreaking to see a culture commodified with no regards to the people who have endured the hardships of the culture. Just as Madonna has no right to commodify the Henna tatoo while people of the Arab world suffered violently (both physically and emotionally) because of racism and xenophobia, people of the Asian, especially the Asian American community, are suffering the same shame and embarrassment when it comes to Kuoshu due to the misunderstanding of the culture.

Because of the shame associated with the stereotype "All Asians know Kung Fu", most young Asian Americans shy away from Kuoshu just as young Hindu American girls often remove the Bindi (vermillian red dot) during school and put it back on on the way home to their parents.

From the Chin Wu to the Nanjing Central Kuoshu Instittute, people of the Kuoshu culture have had an uphill battle starting as early as the Opium Wars. Although "Kung Fu Movies" have provided exposure, it also "miseducated" the general public to mistake Hollywood for reality.

Mantis108,

I also believe that research based publishing by reputable people can counter much of this.

...
Maybe someone will see this as a challenge and engage in the public arena.

Libingshao

What myself and a few Boxers here in San Diego have done is establish a Union of Boxers in a non-profit org. in an attempt to avoid policits and the pitfalls involved with profitable gain. The org. is known as "The Kuoshu Union" and we are currently applying for grants to fund a planned annual event at SDSU known as "The Kuoshu Heritage Festival". Unfortunately, it is very difficult to motivate volunteers when their is no financial gain involved...so we are relying heavily on grants to fund the event (which may take months).

The organization is fueled by those who are passionate about the culture and want to see damage like this undone. The Union is a collabrative effort and not about the promotion of any one line, system, or individual.

In all honesty, one primary pitfall that we have is that the current Members are heavily composed of Non-Chinese...leading us to the obstacle of racism/prejudice. But as Park Bok Nom puts it:

"Don't look at the face, or clothing to judge skill and knowledge. The Jing will tell you what you need to know".

The organization could use all the support we can get. For more info., please contact me or go to www.Kuoshu-Union.org

Thanks for reading my rant,
M.Dasargo

Michael Dasargo

11-01-2005, 11:27 AM

Let me add one other point, Chinese both Taiwanese and mainland send their children to Chinese school for writing reading, language, violin lessons, piano lessons etc. etc---all very well and cultured.

How many Chinese students do we have in our kids classes? Zero and the promises abound when we do our performances in the Akron/Canton/Cleveland area during Chinese holidays----

http://www.bajimen.com/
JiFeng Martial Art Club was founded in 1979, in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, by Mr. James XiaoPo Guo.

Unfortunately, at least in San Diego, most of the Chinese community sends their children to Chinese language and writing school, and off to learn Contemporary Wushu from Chinese teachers. Most Chinese Kuoshu Shifu don't have businesses in their art, so naturally the Chinese community goes to what is available...Contemporary Wushu (In San Diego, that would be Jing Martial Arts Instittute and Golden Dragon).

Although it may sound racist, there is actually a deeper reason. Most Chinese immigrants speak English as a second language, and aren't absorbed by American way of life. So they generally choose an instructor who can not only communicate in the consumers native tounge, but also know the behavior and ettiquete of Chinese culture.

The interesting note about Gong Fu and Kuoshu, is that since many Asian American youth (actually, stemming back to the 70's and 80's) have generally avoided Martial Arts because of the stereotype and prejudice associated with it. So in the US at least, the majority of Gong Fu schools (statistically) are preserved by non-Chinese Boxers. So immigrants fresh from the Mainland are more likely to teach Contemporary Wushu, while non-Chinese American businesses (statistically) are more likely to teach Kuoshu.

Another note would be about Asian Americans vs. non-Asian Americans who do practice the art. Asian Americans who are raised by the culture perceive the art as a part of life...like learning how to cook.

The "family recipe" then of course stays within the family due to the intimate value.

Whereas, a person who is generally not raised by the culture may consider the recipe as exotic, and would like to share the joy and wonderful taste with all of society.

Thus, more of those (whether Asian or non-Asian) who are not raised by the art are more inclined to open "cooking schools" while those who grew up on the recipe simply enjoy their dinner after work.

Dos centavos,
M.

-N-

11-01-2005, 12:46 PM

The interesting note about Gong Fu and Kuoshu, is that since many Asian American youth (actually, stemming back to the 70's and 80's) have generally avoided Martial Arts because of the stereotype and prejudice associated with it.

Let me add one other point, Chinese both Taiwanese and mainland send their children to Chinese school for writing reading, language, violin lessons, piano lessons etc. etc---all very well and cultured.

How many Chinese students do we have in our kids classes? Zero and the promises abound when we do our performances in the Akron/Canton/Cleveland area during Chinese holidays---- Parents: "Yes, we will definitely send our children to learn your praying mantis class. Its wonderful!."
Chinese culture has the concept of Man Mo, or Wen Wu. That would be Scholar and Warrior, Civil and Military. These were viewed as the two major paths to success. These were both necessary for society. My own Chinese name is a reference to the concept of Wen Wu. Even Japanese culture has the expression "bun bu itchi", "pen and sword in accord."

In theory, both civil and military are valued equally, but in practice scholarship is more respected. The culture is hypocritical in that way. China invented civil service. People would take examinations to receive a government post. One could be of service as a scholar or as a military leader. The reality is that those who chose the military route were looked down upon. Often they were illiterate, and people looked the other way when they took their exams. Cheat sheets? Sure, no problem. It was a standing joke. "Well, someone has to fight our enemies." Some might compare it to a jock attending college on a sports scholarship and getting assigned all easy classes so he could maintain a presentable GPA.

So no, Chinese culture overall does not value martial arts. Sure, there are some Chinese that do, but the typical perspective or prejudice is that martial arts is for no education thugs and troublemakers. It is not surprising that Chinese parents discourage their children from doing martial arts. Sure, Chinese school... reading.. writing.. those are fine. But kung fu is what illiterate villagers did, because there was no such thing as TV in the old days. When I was a kid, most of the Chinese kids doing kung fu were gang members and wannabee bad-asses. Kung Fu for discipline? That is a romanticised American concept. Chinese parents, not Kung Fu, disciplined their kids. My classmates and I were constantly discouraged by our parents from continuing our Kung Fu training.

Chinese parents expect their kids to become doctors, lawyers, and engineers... not basketball players, boxers, and kung fu movie stars. If you are Chinese, tell me you didn't hear your parents complain, "Why you waste time?? Kung Fu only for no education people!" Then they probably tried to make you take piano lessons.

RAF, those parents said they would send their children because they did not want to insult you or hurt your feelings. Most don't have a real desire for their kids to spend time on Kung Fu.

N.

mantis108

11-01-2005, 01:05 PM

Thank you for voicing your thoughts in this grave matter. I appreciate all the supports and encouragement that you have given. There are indeed lots of good points made by all. I understand it is pretty much impossible to stop the trend and this is perhaps nothing new. However, I am most troubled by the speed of the development. Mainland have only "promoted" Shaolin Wushu farce for about 20 some years and an martial art that is indigenous to Shandong already being totally annexed without any regard whatsoever by one of the government's agent. Don't be fool by the Buddhist appearance. Shaolin Disney Land is in fact a government sponsered if not controlled agent of cultural propoganda. If I am not mistaken, the abbot is a party member and "elected" representative of "the people" (who exactly voted for whom? I didn't know) . That's why you see modern Wushu but not Kung Fu in and arround the "Shaolin Temple".

In terms of hundreds of years of development of the system, not to mention the hundreds of people who help shaped the system and styles, this is really sickening and extremely disrespectful for those who dedicated their lives both in good and/or bad times. This annexation implies that Tanglangquan is no more than a joke to them which they clearly use it as a cash cow. I weep for the ignorant soul(s) who bought the cr@p with hard earn money, precious time and admirable efforts.

We didn't have concrete proof of how people response to this type of non sense in the west but now with the thread on the CyberKwoon, we can tell exactly that it matches our predictions.

I have always say that there is a good reason why Kung Fu should draw a line with Wushu in a firm and steadfast manner.

Operation Kung Fu Doomsday is well in effect. Dear beloved Kung Fu in China, RIP.
:( May those who cond@nmed you be paid back in kind someday.

Warm regards

Mantis108

libingshao

11-01-2005, 02:00 PM

In "New Martial Hero Magazine" p.8, there is a note that arguements concerning the birthplace of Tanglagnquan had been solved and that Yantai was now accepted "officially" as the birthplace of Tanglangquan. It was the Nov. issue of 2005, I think.

Anyone having information on this, I would really appreciate more information.

Libingshao

RAF

11-01-2005, 02:24 PM

N-

I am aware of their face saving ing mian zi and politeness, but even within my own Chinese family there is a benign indiffence (oxymoron, real yin yang). They do consider the martial arts as a part of the Chinese culture when it is brought up but if its never brought up, they are indifferent to its existence.

When I was in Beijing this summer, I trained every morning in my in-laws apartment courts---one of the elderly women (all are retired) brought over her grandson to watch---she kinda of wanted him to see an old relic of sorts---when I asked (he was about 10 or so) if he played---the response, "no way". He liked the leaping double kick I did (for fun) and I asked if he wanted to try---no! They watched me train a bit of baji and bagua for maybe another 10 minutes and went off on their way. Basketball is hot

You are correct about the association of martial arts with the uneducated---nowadays most country people are trying to make it to the city---anything but the country---I am sympathetic to that---its easy for someone comfortable with money, like myself, to take such a "lofty" view of the art.

I could probably add a few more stories of Chinese fathers (both Taiwanese and mainland) who played the marital arts, wanted their kids to learn, but submitted to the "little emperors" when they cried it was too hard---never get that reaction from piano or violin lessons regardless of how they squaked---I saw mothers rearrange their work schedules to insure that their kids got to their Saturday piano lessons---this ism't an over night experience---its been going on for years. However, no whining on my part--it simply is.

My initial reaction to the topic was that its not only what the Shaolin si has dome to the art, there are others promoting the traditional art to offset the monk's influence, but its the whole view of the now changing society. I am sure Qingdao and Yan Tai will have something to say about that. The best is yet to come as the preoccupation with making money becomes evermore obsessive.
__________________________________________________ __

Didn't Yan Tai start to hold tournaments kind of in competition with Qingdao?:)

mantis108

11-01-2005, 03:01 PM

Recognition is but a hollow promise IMHO. It's like some one said I feel your pain (I recognize it) but keep hitting you on the palm with a ruler. Unless they take all of their so called Tanglang form out of the Shaolin Wushu curriculum; otherwise, it just another BS stunt. Now would they ever decree that? I think it's a huge lost of face on the government part. So don't bet you shorts on it, my friends.

Mantis108

Robert Young

11-01-2005, 03:24 PM

> In 1998, I had to sit through the martial arts demonstration at the Shaolin
> Temple in Songshan and it made me sick---pure garbage. On the other hand, at
> least Qingdao and Yan Tai are attempting to preserve the traditional martial art
> of Taiji Meihua Pryaing Mantis--I wish Taiwan would wake up.

There are many reality reasons for the demotion of CMA in Taiwan where I grew up. Let me express what I saw the CMA problems in Taiwan.

1. Taiwan govenment never has and still don't have any interests in promote CMA. They are more interested in poilitics.

2. Like some people said here, Chinese parent would rather see their children plan piano and violin. Why? I have no idea. It's a curse. Most of Chinese kids stop playing piano once they have chance, like going to college. Chinese parents simply what to see their children follow their view and order. Most of the Chinese children are exactly like a copy of their parents. I think that is one of the bigger problem.

3. Chinese parents usually don't see the future in learning CMA. In Taiwan, CMA was treated as the lowest class people of the society. I know because I have been argueing pretty much all of my life with my dad about my CMA. I'm still practicing and I have no regret. Actually, I'm very proud of it.

4. Today, most of the performance are for modern wushu because they are flashy. Traditional CMA are simply not as flashy as modern wushu and the audience don't know better.

5. CMA people in Taiwan don't do advertisement, period. People who do adverstisement are usually not traditional.

Is there a cure for it? I don't know. But, people like my teacher is still teaching traditional CMA in taiwan. I'm still learning from my teacher every time I go back to Taiwan. My son is practicing traditional CMA. In our line, I think we are still going and trying to keep our tradition. I still have about a dozen of LF brothers under my teacher practicing CMA for more than 30 years in Taiwan. There are other systems like us in Taiwan too. We simply don't do advertisment. That does not mean we don't exist.

Personally, I don' t think CMA will be popular simply because it is not for everybody. It takes too much of sweat and blood and commitment to practice CMA. But, if every systems can have a few people continue their own lines, I think there are hopes in CMA.

The demotion of CMA has been a problem there since WWII. Modern wushu will still be there as logn as Chinese government keep promoting it. But, traditional CMA people has started coming out last 10 years. I have seen more and more people doing traditional CMA from China in public these day. Personally, I don't expect other people or government or agency to promote tradtional CMA. It is actually the job of the traditional CMA practioners like you and me here. If I can train myself better and teach and train my students better, then may be one or two or a few more students can carry my line. If I can make that happen, our LF line can carry own itself and our LF has hope. I believe the same situation with other traditional CMA systems.

Things are not as bad as it looks actually. Most people I talked to 10 years ago all thought martial art schools in northern Song Sang shaolin temple are real. Now, more and more people have realized they are just as fake as it can be. Money make wonders just like those schools around the temple. There is nothing we can stop that. But, if we can train more people with real skills, then the truth will show itself. And then traditional CMA will have it place in this world.

Cheers,

RAF

11-01-2005, 04:26 PM

Nice post Robert.

gfx

11-01-2005, 04:51 PM

Because of threads like this, there are hopes for us yet.