Why no san shou competitors in k-1 ? Why doesnt muay thai get the whole trad bashing?

[Wong Fei Hong]

As the title says , why are there no san shou / san da fighters in the k1 ? Since there are regional competitions and im sure the chinese wouldnt mind their fighters fighting under modified rules, why havent we seen any ?
Also San shou vs muay thai occurs under rules that suit both parties, with the chinese doing quite well recently against the thai and the full contact japanese fighters ? Adn beting the us kickboxing team for the past few years.


Also why doesnt muay thai get the bashing san da gets ,
muay thai when shown in the ring looks nothing like trad muay thai
Karate in the ring looks nothing like trad karate
Kung fu in the ring :D no seriously guys , kung fu in a ring looks nothing like trad kung fu.

However only kung fu gets the real hard bashing. Seriously looking at muay thai as its learnt as a text book of moves its got a billion moves just like kf and karate , but yet all of them fight like a kickboxer with knees elbows and combos that are a little different. So why dont people say ah muay thai is modified its modern ah their trad doesnt work.

Also why is it that when a kyokushin karate guy fights or a kickboxer fights they automatically can be confused for:- hmmm it came from muay thai. ?

Is it because of the strong ethnic propaganda that for years the thais wouldnt accept defeat?
During the late 1960's, Raymond Elder was the only non-Thai ever rated in the Bangkok ratings.

Toshio Fujiwara In 1971, he captured the All-Japan Kickboxing Federation's first lightweight title and went on to win the Raj****ern title in 1978 in Thailand. Fighting guys like Poodpardnoi Worawoot
Prayuth Sittiboonlert
Sirimongkol
Narongnoi Kiatbundit
Monsawan Lukchiangma
using kyokushin karate.

Ramon dekkers world muay thai champion beating the thai champion in lumpinee 1990 and he won Fighter of the Year in Thailand in 1992.

Ivan hippolyte Won world title at the Lumpini Stadium in Thailand, beating Pompet Naratrikun by KO. He trained at vos gym. Vos gym is kyokushin karate but even nowadays everyone says its a muay thai gym. WTF ? Even though you walk around called the coach sensei and using japanese terminology.


So why does muay thai still have that position ?
You dont see vanderlei silva looking like he does real muay thai ?
You dont see any thais dominating ufc.

So why is it that muay thai is a dominating stand up style but san shou or kuokushin isnt as "kosher".

[Ben Gash]

A) Good PR
B) when people first saw Muay Thai in the west it was the ring style, so people now view Muay Boran and Krabi Krabong as interesting historical backwaters, rather than the soul of the art with ring Muay Thai as a modern sport derivative that's shed much of what is good.
What I really love is that they banned the hip throw because it was "Too Judo" :mad:

[Wood Dragon]

Also why is it that when a kyokushin karate guy fights or a kickboxer fights they automatically can be confused for:- hmmm it came from muay thai. ?

".

Can't speak to the kickboxing angle.

The Kyokushin system is based on traditional Karate (primarily Shotokan and Goju Ryu), but incorporates many elements of combat sports like Boxing and Muay Thai in Kumite. Many techniques like Hiza-Geri (knee kick), Mae Oroshi Kakato Geri (axe kick) and Gedan Mawashi Geri (low kick) aren't found in traditional Karate.

That said, if you confuse a MT boxer with a Kyokushin fighter, you need new glasses. Totally different application of those techniques. In the same way BJJ /= Judo.

[Brad]

Also why doesnt muay thai get the bashing san da gets ,
muay thai when shown in the ring looks nothing like trad muay thai
Karate in the ring looks nothing like trad karate
Kung fu in the ring no seriously guys , kung fu in a ring looks nothing like trad kung fu.
1.Most San Da bashing comes from within the kungfu community. The traditional kungfu community has a lot more factions/styles than either MT or Karate... plus San Da is promoted heavilly by the communist Chinese government which persecuted the kungfu community in the past. It wasn't that long ago that a lot of these teachers were chased out of their homeland or forced to practice in secret. People are going to bear grudges like that for a long time.

There's also the groups that think anything sport related is worthless (because kungfu is too deadly :rolleyes: ), and an even smaller number that might think violence for entertainment is morally wrong.

Kungfu has also allways been a bit clanish (with various cults and criminal elements associated with it often in the past).

So, there's lots of possible reasons, I think.

[lkfmdc]

Considering that San Shou/San Da guys have done both K-1 and K-1 Max, what is the point of this thread again?? :confused:

[Becca]

The point being that the auther of this thread saw a couple K-1 re-runs on ESPN and discided it made him an expert on the subject.

Could also be that he don't know what San Da looks like. That comment about traditional kung fu looking nothing like sport kung fu is a pretty good example. Someone who knows how to use thier art properly will still look like they are doing thier art when in the ring. Someone who is not as proficient will look like run-of-the-mill kick boxing. And many times, someone who has only read about things in a rag-mag will not be able to tell one from the other.

I honestly am shock said auther would be that obtuse considering his very shrewed quote, as seen in my sig line.:confused:

[Wong Fei Hong]

lkfmdc which fighters ? Also you say whats the point of this thread again , i couldnt find any previous similar threads.

[Wong Fei Hong]

Ive seen every single k-1 final from 1993 to 2002, and k-1 max 2003 2004, im an addict :D and i havent seen any sanda guys or san shou guys, and im not talking about cung le in a one off event. In china people dont even know who cung le is. One of my teachers was placed 3rd in sanda nationals in china 10 years ago so ive got a clue about sanda.


Could also be that he don't know what San Da looks like. That comment about traditional kung fu looking nothing like sport kung fu is a pretty good example. Someone who knows how to use thier art properly will still look like they are doing thier art when in the ring. Someone who is not as proficient will look like run-of-the-mill kick boxing. And many times, someone who has only read about things in a rag-mag will not be able to tell one from the other.

But i didnt understand what was the point of this part of the post


That comment about traditional kung fu looking nothing like sport kung fu is a pretty good example. Someone who knows how to use thier art properly will still look like they are doing thier art when in the ring.

All i could say is point me towards the place i can see REAL kung fu demonstrated in the ring :confused: is it the Chan hak Fu & Wu gong yi fight :D

[lkfmdc]

Apparently you haven't seen ALL the K-1's

Off the top of my head...

K-1 (heavyweight)
AHN HU
ZHANG QING JUN

K-1 Max (70 kg)
Zhang Jiapo

These would be CHINESE fighters

[Wong Fei Hong]

Ok so someone is in a bad mood, i never said ALL the k1, i said the finals of those years that i watched .

When i looked them up zhang jiapo appeared only once in 2002 which i hadnt watched, he lost and never reappeared.
and Zhang Qing Jun fought in 2004 and 2005 again i havent seen these, 2 whole fights one of which was a loss !


Press
The Hong Hong press gave unprecedented coverage to the "showdown of the century" when the "Tiger of Jian Xu" Zhang Qing Jun of China scored a stunning first round KO win (1:10 of round 1) over England's Marek "The Jet" Boguscewicz at the Elizabeth Stadium to win the first WBC MUAYTHAI (Greater Asia) International Heavyweight Championship on September 9th, 2005.

Response
Well it sounds impressive enough... That is until you look closer.
What is sad here is that despite the WBC's claim to have legitimate titles, we wonder where they found these two fighters. WBC has NO Rankings to determine legit contenders and both of these fighters are far from qualified contenders. Boguscewicz is not ranked in ANY of the world wide sanctioning bodies who currently rank fighters and what we found out about Zhang Qing Jun makes Boguscewicz look pretty bad losing to him in just 70 seconds.

Zhang Qing Jun is from Trinidad and Tobago (China) and. His actual age is a mystery because while some say he is an 18 year old, on his K-1 GP bio, it lists his birthday as January 17, 1966, making him 39. He stands 6 foot 3 inches tall and weighs around 240 pounds and his main background is Chinese kickboxing. However, like Boguscewicz, he is FAR from any TITLE contender. He's had 12 fights and has only won 3 while losing 8 and having 1 draw. This past March he was defeated by Kaoklai Kaennorsing by unanimous decision at the K-1 Seoul GP at the Seoul Olympic Gymnasium, Seoul, South Korea. Previously to this match up he had defeated sumo wrestling legend, Akebono, but who hasn't in kickboxing or Muay Thai...

Ok maybe i should phrase it differently,
considering china has a population of 1.3 billion people why doesnt it have a strong series of fighters who do well in all aspects of k-1 from preliminaries to getting in the final . Considering china's martial background and sports fanatiscism.

[Ben Gash]

Because it takes time to adapt to a format, and because K1 was originally geared towards heavyweights, which eliminates 90% of the Chinese population.

[Wong Fei Hong]

Ben gash ive noticed that too, its like an 100 kilo oriental is nothing like an 100 kilo westerner, im not being racist but comparing musashi to a lot of other fighters for ex of the same weight , he looks a lot lighter and looks like he has half the muscle, and so many others from mma also, they just dont seem to make the real weights they need.
Also i believe people like musashi who are 100 kilos are super heavyweights for their countries so they use their muscle, kind of like how bob sapp muscled ernesto hoost around the first couple of times . But when they enter the ring and are small in comparison to other fighters, they cant use their intimidation/muscling around tactics.
Not always the case, but just a theory.

[Becca]

Ok maybe i should phrase it differently,
considering china has a population of 1.3 billion people why doesnt it have a strong series of fighters who do well in all aspects of k-1 from preliminaries to getting in the final . Considering china's martial background and sports fanatiscism.
Could also be a lack of intrest in that perticular competition. Have you ever looked to see what competitions are popular with Cahina-born Chinese?

As for what San Da looks like in the ring, I haven't the fogiest idea. I have never studied the art. But buying Coach Ross's DVD series might be a good place to start. I could tell you what Pai Lum looks like, though...:)

[Wong Fei Hong]

Pai lum.... sounds yummy ... is it edible j/k

Sanda/ san shou in the ring looks like kickboxing with throws, san shou in the west is very kickboxing orientated format, whereas in the east in sanda you can fight using any style you would like.
When i learnt sanda it was a bit weird compared to other martial arts it was hard to find a single one style influence on it, i know people say it originated from this or from that etc etc but the concepts reminded me of things like wado karate or even jkd. The hand work wasnt boxing, in the same way muay thai handwork isnt boxing.Also the combinations werent kickboxing style combinations, punch kick combinations were also geared towards setting up the next move and or throw , and focused on feigning a move to get a hit in to score a point.
However in practise what i saw from the amateur sanda championships in china it just looked like kickboxing with throws.

As for what is popular with china born chinese , (i assume cahina = china) Ive found that anything that the government tells them is popular is popular full stop !
So i guess if the government said next year we we will win the k-1 chances are that china will have bred about 4000 overnight k-1 winners.

This i noticed with my own teacher, he learnt trad family style for 10 years then went to university to learn wushu and sanda , and is a teacher in university in china for sports.
So i tell him i dont want to learn sanda i prefer trad, so he says sanda is better, so i ask him what about your trad teacher wasnt he better than these modern fighters, definately he says he could wipe the floor with all these modern fighters , he used his martial arts to fight in war, but sanda is modern its better.
So then im like ok does anyone teach traditional in china, and he is like not really in comparison 99% of guys learn wushu and sanda in the schools its modern training methods and its so much better because its like in the west we use weights and cardiovascular excersise .
But hong kong is full of trad schools i say, hung gar wing chun etc, ah but hong kong isnt china he says.
So im tottally baffled.
But yet china comes up with a team to beat the thais last 2 times .

[Brad]

The way I see it... you throw 100 people into real old fashioned traditional training maybe 10 or 20 become hardcore killing machines, and the rest don't amount to much at all... throw a 100 people into San Da training, and you might end up with 70 good quality fighters, but not really any old school hard core beasts...

Obviously my "statistics" are completely made up, but I think you get the idea ;) San Da is more effecient for teaching fighting ability, but of course is limited due to it being a sport. Of course the way some old guys (like lkfmdc's teacher Chan Tai San) became what they were would most likely be illegal in today's day and age, or at the very least impractical (in time, commitment, and risk of injurey) for the vast majority of modern day martial artists.

Also, obviously, with 100 to 200 unique styles in traditional CMA, some ways will fit better within modern lifestyles than others (in other words, be more efecient). There's allways exceptions.

[Becca]

Pai lum.... sounds yummy ... is it edible j/k


... Never tasted it.:eek: :p

But it is a soft, external style of Chinese Kempo, created by the late Daniel K. Pai.



As for what is popular with china born chinese , (i assume cahina = china) Ive found that anything that the government tells them is popular is popular full stop !
So i guess if the government said next year we we will win the k-1 chances are that china will have bred about 4000 overnight k-1 winners.

This i noticed with my own teacher, he learnt trad family style for 10 years then went to university to learn wushu and sanda , and is a teacher in university in china for sports.
So i tell him i dont want to learn sanda i prefer trad, so he says sanda is better, so i ask him what about your trad teacher wasnt he better than these modern fighters, definately he says he could wipe the floor with all these modern fighters , he used his martial arts to fight in war, but sanda is modern its better.
So then im like ok does anyone teach traditional in china, and he is like not really in comparison 99% of guys learn wushu and sanda in the schools its modern training methods and its so much better because its like in the west we use weights and cardiovascular excersise .
But hong kong is full of trad schools i say, hung gar wing chun etc, ah but hong kong isnt china he says.
So im tottally baffled.
But yet china comes up with a team to beat the thais last 2 times .

I've always found punctuation to help.:D

[Wong Fei Hong]

cmon you could have at least re-wrote it for me :(

[Becca]

What? And really show off my horrible spelling? No Way!:eek: :D

[SevenStar]

Also why doesnt muay thai get the bashing san da gets ,
muay thai when shown in the ring looks nothing like trad muay thai

yes it does. the core of the modern muay thai is also the core of muay boran.



However only kung fu gets the real hard bashing. Seriously looking at muay thai as its learnt as a text book of moves its got a billion moves just like kf and karate , but yet all of them fight like a kickboxer with knees elbows and combos that are a little different. So why dont people say ah muay thai is modified its modern ah their trad doesnt work.

actually, the thais DID say that it didn't work. They stripped the "lethal" and hard to accomplish (stuff that didn't work) techniques from the system when they created muay thai.



Also why is it that when a kyokushin karate guy fights or a kickboxer fights they automatically can be confused for:- hmmm it came from muay thai. ?

they aren't - at least not by someone who knows what they are looking at. However, think about it... Thai kickboxing. Kickboxing. The names sound interchangeably. Conseauently, that is how they are used. Even though kickboxing has it's base in full contact karate. kyokushin has had influence from muay thai. This happened after oyama frought a few thai boxers. Their skill and toughness impressed him and he played with adding elements of it to his style.



Ivan hippolyte Won world title at the Lumpini Stadium in Thailand, beating Pompet Naratrikun by KO. He trained at vos gym. Vos gym is kyokushin karate but even nowadays everyone says its a muay thai gym. WTF ? Even though you walk around called the coach sensei and using japanese terminology.

that may be preference. Manu Ntoh's students call him sifu and they use a sash ranking system.



So why does muay thai still have that position ?

because it has proven itself time and time again. everyone suffers losses,but overall thai boxing - be it done by thais or others - has an undeniable record in fighting. Heck, thailand even won like three medals in boxing in the last summer olympics.


You dont see vanderlei silva looking like he does real muay thai ?

silva has been training thai boxing for years.


You dont see any thais dominating ufc.

you don't see them competing in it, either...


So why is it that muay thai is a dominating stand up style but san shou or kuokushin isnt as "kosher".

those are decent styles. However, they are also lesser known and lesser seen..

[SevenStar]

Also why doesnt muay thai get the bashing san da gets ,
muay thai when shown in the ring looks nothing like trad muay thai

yes it does. the core of the modern muay thai is also the core of muay boran.



However only kung fu gets the real hard bashing. Seriously looking at muay thai as its learnt as a text book of moves its got a billion moves just like kf and karate , but yet all of them fight like a kickboxer with knees elbows and combos that are a little different. So why dont people say ah muay thai is modified its modern ah their trad doesnt work.

actually, the thais DID say that it didn't work. They stripped the "lethal" and hard to accomplish (stuff that didn't work) techniques from the system when they created muay thai.



Also why is it that when a kyokushin karate guy fights or a kickboxer fights they automatically can be confused for:- hmmm it came from muay thai. ?

they aren't - at least not by someone who knows what they are looking at. However, think about it... Thai kickboxing. Kickboxing. The names sound interchangeably. Conseauently, that is how they are used. Even though kickboxing has it's base in full contact karate. kyokushin has had influence from muay thai. This happened after oyama frought a few thai boxers. Their skill and toughness impressed him and he played with adding elements of it to his style.



Ivan hippolyte Won world title at the Lumpini Stadium in Thailand, beating Pompet Naratrikun by KO. He trained at vos gym. Vos gym is kyokushin karate but even nowadays everyone says its a muay thai gym. WTF ? Even though you walk around called the coach sensei and using japanese terminology.

that may be preference. Manu Ntoh's students call him sifu and they use a sash ranking system.



So why does muay thai still have that position ?

because it has proven itself time and time again. everyone suffers losses,but overall thai boxing - be it done by thais or others - has an undeniable record in fighting. Heck, thailand even won like three medals in boxing in the last summer olympics.


You dont see vanderlei silva looking like he does real muay thai ?

silva has been training thai boxing for years.


You dont see any thais dominating ufc.

you don't see them competing in it, either...


So why is it that muay thai is a dominating stand up style but san shou or kuokushin isnt as "kosher".

those are decent styles. However, they are also lesser known and lesser seen.