Wrestle on Cement or use Matts?

[YongChun]

Have any of you compared the difference between wrestling on Mats vs on cement? At the moment we don't have mats so some of us just wrestle on cement. I see the disadvantage is that you have to take more care and can't do a lot of stuff that a mat would protect you from. An advantage is that you just get used to what you can do on a very hard surface.

The first thing is learning how to fall and how to sweep down your partner while taking care that they don't injure themselves in the process (if their falling skills are not good enough). So I have to constantly tell people to avoid the instinctive reflex of putting their hand down first because that results in a broken wrist. That happened to me in the 1980's and I was out for 7 months because of it. Also I smashed my elbow on the floor in the 1980's and broke the tip of my elbow. I don't know where it went but maybe the extra calcium from my elbow tip went on to build up some other part of my body somewhere.

Anyway I find you can train lots of stuff on a cement floor. I went to a Silat seminar by the late Herman Siwanda and he said they always trained on hard surfaces and cement because that's where real fights happen. I also think that the skills trained on a mat can of course be transposed over to cement because as a kid I used to train on a grass lawn and those skills transfer over to cement pretty easily. So, if you don't train grappling because you can't afford mats, then just train on your hard cement floor (under proper supervision).

Ray

[reneritchie]

Hi Ray,

I used to grapple on any old floor and never used mouth-guards when I sparred, etc. Now I'm the thing that's old and I regret not taking better care of myself.

"Realism" is tricky. How many times in your life will you have to grapple on concrete? How many hours will you put in training to do so? In the end, the constant grind of hourly training may give you more injuries than the rare (hopefully) times of real use.

I've used http://www.buygymmats.com. They're based in Canada and are awesome. Treat your body well and it will treat you well back :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good point, Rene.

Have had some experiences in the past with real streetfights on concrete - and I don't see the point about training on it - for the reasons you gave.

Perhaps an occasional all-out workout on grass is a better compromise sacrifice to the God of Realism. :cool:

[YongChun]

Hi Ray,

I've used http://www.buygymmats.com. They're based in Canada and are awesome. Treat your body well and it will treat you well back :)

Hi Rene,

What size mats did you get? I'm thinking two of the 4x8V4 mats together to form an 8x8 surface should do the trick.

Ray

[anerlich]

Rene and Victor are correct. While it's good to do some work on hard surfaces to appreciate what they can do to you, you work on mats while grappling for the same reason you wear gloves and protective gear when sparring stand up, and you wear a seat belt while driving or riding in a car.

[reneritchie]

Hi Ray,

I have 3 for 8x12 which is enough for 4 people to drill or 2 people to roll hard, BJJ-style. I've used 8x8 as well for 2 person drills and rolling, you just have to pay attention if there are walls close by :)

I also have Tatame and don't like them as much. They're a rougher surface and don't have the same impact absorption ability.

The guy who runs buygymmats.com is a fairly experienced grappler so if you contact him and tell him exactly what you want to do, he can help you work out the best solution possible.

[5Animals1Path]

The only time I get apprehensive about going on concrete is during throws. I've had my head ground into it, had to move and scrape up and down it, and I still hate landing on it more then anything. Even if you land right, it still hurts. The stuff has no give to it whatsoever. Even asphalt takes some of the energy into it. If you're throwing/sweeping/tripping/dropping, yeah go for some mats. I wish I had the money to put some in my garage.

[YongChun]

T worst damage that you can give to your opponent is to let the back of his head to hit on the hard cement floor. Boxing donot allow to hit on the back of the head has good reason.

A broken arm and leg can still be fixed. A cracked skull will be a bit harder.

If I train on cement and do a sweep takedown then I always position my hand on the back of my partner's head so that his head cannot hit the cement. I never assume that the guy will fall properly so I figure out in advance exactly how the guy will land. After this the biggest thing is to tell them to avoid sticking the hand out because it results in a broken or sprained wrist (at least a seven month injury). I also teach the sweeper in this case to go down with the person by kneeling down so that you don't get the case of the sweeper trying to prevent the person being swept from injury by bending down and wrecking his own back in the process. Martial arts wise it's good to do this anyway because you can use knee controls to the head or ribs and be in a position for hitting or locking.

Ray

[Mr Punch]

T worst damage that you can give to your opponent is to let the back of his head to hit on the hard cement floor. That is the single most common cause of death in aikido in Japan, and that's not usually on concrete but canvassed tatami or mats (at least it was in 1989 (http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=8))

Good posts by those recommending mats. Sure hard surfaces are good once in a while with experienced people as an eye-opener, but generally it's not worth the risk.

Good post YKW. Two of my three serious injuries were from avoiding other people on the ground after some careless tori had thrown me without checking where I was landing.

Once, two days before my shodan test a supposedly very high-grade threw me very extravagantly without checking my landing was clear on a very crowded mat, and I had to twist in mid-air to avoid my heel coming down on the top of someone's bowed head, which resulted in my spraining my ankle AND the ******* that did it chewing me out for not being able to breakfall properly when I was going for a shodan two days later! One of my sempai who'd seen the whole thing promptly got between us (I was on the point of doing something you shouldn't do to your senior, especially with a sprained ankle!) and balled him out for irresponsible behaviour!

I passed the shodan with a sprained (bandaged) ankle! ;) :D ... but I'd rather have not had to... safety first!

The third injury (which incidentally was one day before that same test! :eek: :D), was caused by someone throwing their uke into me (their knee landed on the centre of the same foot, and dislocated the toes...!) !

[Mr Punch]

I also have Tatame and don't like them as much. They're a rougher surface and don't have the same impact absorption ability.In most dojo over here the tatami have a thick canvas covering... the impact absorption still sucks, but they don't shred your feet so much. Without the covering even just shuffling forward on your knees for tea ceremony can leave you with the tops of your feet looking like they've been through a cheese-grater!

[YongChun]

Some students here have also been suggesting the Home Depot Sof-Styles Foam Mat which is $13.00 for 16 square feet (4 interlocking pieces). The Canadian top quality solution would be three 4x8 mats for 3x$180 = $540. Or the Home Depot equivalent area would require 6 packs (2x2 interlocking pieces) for $78 or if you double them for extra padding $156. If you can afford it, then I would opt for the mats suggested by Rene because they are thicker and easier to fold up and put away. If not, then the Home Depot solution may work. I heard Canadian tire also has a slightly thicker mat. The single home depot layer may do for just wrestling but I wouldn't trust it for throw downs.

The Aikido article about the dangers of throws should be considered by everyone. Some people have no sense regarding safety in grappling or sparring.

Ray

[stricker]

dude you gotta have mats to do goundwork on! working on cement or a hard floor is just painful. all itll do is make people hold back from wrestling properly where in a real fight you dont really give a **** about a scuffed up knee or a bit of a graze on your arse cheek if the other guys got a broken arm or gnp'd out, but in training in class no ones gonna go that far as it just messes you up for training the next day or whatever. any reason your not gettin standard competition judo mats?? all the ones ive used that werent proper judo ones felt really crappy. judo people use them for a good reason!

[stricker]

the thing with cheapies is all about density. if its too soft when you throw or fall itll bottom out and youll smack the concrete below. too hard and it wont absorb enough shock. thats why i said the judo ones seem just perfect. cheers!

[reneritchie]

I know a few people with the puzzle mats. Some are very rough, others tend to wear away quickly. Many people do use them, but even mats can grind away at you so the best mats you can afford are certainly worth it.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I just ordered these:
http://www.shopgreatmats.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=6&c=14

The price is right, the density fits my purposes, and a generous surface area is covered.

Christian

[reneritchie]

Yeah, those are the kind I've seen. I would do standup on those, but not falls or serious rolling. I value my skull and joints :)