Hung Sing Original Hand forms

[hskwarrior]

I was browsing through the web and came across some of our old posts and read the one about Hung Sing original hand forms.

After contacting our sifu's in fut san, there were 5 primary sets that Jeong Hung Sing taught, they were: (not in any order)

1) Che Kuen
2) Cheung Kuen
3) Ping Kuen
4) Lin Wan Kuen
5) Kou Da Kuen

anything after these sets from any master from this branch was an add on. And as we all know, there are a sheet load of sets throughout the entire (3 branches) choy lee fut system. And regardless, somewhere down the line all choy lee fut people supported each other so its not entirely impossible for one branch to have another branches set.

now i know this may go haywire, but i wanted to know from any "OG" choy lee fut students of the chan family what did the chan family consider their main core of sets before the explosion of sets later on. let me clarify, what sets did chan heung himself teach right after the introduction of choy lee fut.

the chan have the Ng Lun Ma, the hung sing people have CHe Kuen.

i hope you follow me, and lets keep this drama free, please.


hsk

[hskwarrior]

also, it is strictly first and foremost a fut san hung sing kwoon thing to say the following.....

The "L" pattern in the opening of the sets up to the bow was created by Jeong Yim.

as far as i know, the chan family usually starts right in the middle, but are there any sets that follow the "L" pattern from the Chan Family?


hsk

[iron_silk]

Ng Lun Ma is not the equivolent of Che Kuen "I believe"

Chan Family does have Che Kuen and has two names for it (at least my clf instructor did)
1)Che Kuen and 2)Ng Lun Chui (I think I don't remember too well anymore)

I would learn Ng Lun Ma first which is essentially horse stance, basic movements, and basic kicks (actually I think it was one kind of kick) usually repeating movements 3 times in each direction (but varies more near the 1/3).

Then I graduated to Ng Lun Chui which is essentially the same pattern as Ng Lun Ma but now we incorporate hand movements for example "Gwa Sow Been Na Sow Chan Jeurng Cheurng An Chui"

Just thought I share what little I may know...you know putting myself out there and all that.

[bigdoing]

I study under Ng Fu Hang, his grandfather was Chan Yiu Chi. He tells us he hasnt changed what he was taught, allthough im not sure this is the order he learned....this is the way we get it...

fist off he teachs san sao drills right away ( stuff hes picked out of the forms that he likes) and as you are learning those....

1. Ng Lu Ma
2. Ng Lu Choi
3. Sui Mui Fa
4. Ping Jian Kuen
5. Sup ji jit Fu
6. Siu Sup Ji
7. Gum pow duei Churk fu ying kuen
8. Ping Kuen
9. Da Fu Bat Gwa
10. Bat Gwa Sum
11. jao San Ma say moon kiu

thats the hand sets in order to finish the standard ciriuclum for the hand forms.

I'd say the three forms that have the most difference in technique and flow would be Siu Mui Fa, Ping Kuen, and Da Fu Bat Gwa.

Peace,
Bryan.

[CLFNole]

I remember reading about Jeurng Yim's power when playing Sup Gee Kow Dah Kuen, but I don't see it mentioned in the list of original forms. Virtually all of CLF has this set hung sing, buk sing and Chan.

What about the supposed 9 original sets created by Chan Hueng, (tai gee kuen, ping kuen, gwok gee kuen, etc...) Some history mentions these yet only a few are still around.

I always though lien wan kuen was a set added later by the buk sing branch.

[Lohanhero]

hello, i was wondering if i could be given some info on Hung Sing, i beleve this is a society and had different masters of different systems. or is it just CLF?

thank you very much.

[kei lun]

The Choy Lee Fut of the Chui Cheung Assoc. only has 8 forms. Among these are Taai Ji Keun, Ping Ji Keun, Tin Ji Keun and Gok Ji Keun. I have never heard of these forms outside of this association... except in the movie "Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut" where he went through these forms.

Just mentioning it and I cant say for sure these are the original 8 forms, but if you look at the lineage of Chui Cheung its pretty pure, coming from 4 Hung Sing masters. Again, Im not stating anything just saying that this association only has and always had 8 forms.

Kei Lun

[Shaolindynasty]

always though lien wan kuen was a set added later by the buk sing branch.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have a lien wan kuen set but it was created by my sigung

[hskwarrior]

many different systems have a lin wan kuen. the one shaolin dynasty is speaking has to do with continuous cyclic panther punches. that one is tam sams creation which i believe came later on. in the lin wan from fut san i rarely see any panther's there.

when it comes to buk sing choy lee fut, first and foremost they are a product of Jeong Yims Hung SIng Kwoon whom eventuall developed their own separate identity.

then you have tam sam who has always claimed to be a hung sing man, never buk sing. up until the 5 student exchange between tam sam and ku yu jeung the buk sing kwoon was purely hung sing choy lee fut. after those 5 students is when buk sing's northern came into play. so there was a point when buk sing was purely hung sing.

it's good that chui kwong Yuen has kept the gok gee, my sifu learned that one long ago and has since forgotten it.

anyways, for what ever reason, after retracing our roots back to the original fut san hung sing kwoon, they decided to give my sifu the original 5 sets that jeong yim taught him self.

peace

[CLFNole]

I often wonder when we use the word "original" if any sets are really that. I mean do we honestly believe that the form is the same as it was when it was made? There is no way so whatever forms each of us have, be it small or large, whats most important is understanding what you have.

Personally I think that forms are more of a modern phenomenon. I mean think about it martial arts were designed for fighting, why do you need "X" number of sets just practice techniques and do drills then fight.

Sorry to stray off track.

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

The Choy Lee Fut of the Chui Cheung Assoc. only has 8 forms. Among these are Taai Ji Keun, Ping Ji Keun, Tin Ji Keun and Gok Ji Keun. I have never heard of these forms outside of this association... except in the movie "Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut" where he went through these forms.

Just mentioning it and I cant say for sure these are the original 8 forms, but if you look at the lineage of Chui Cheung its pretty pure, coming from 4 Hung Sing masters. Again, Im not stating anything just saying that this association only has and always had 8 forms.

Kei Lun

So where do all these other forms come from on the list I posted? The animal forms? The baat gwa forms? The Sup Ji forms? etc, etc? And if these 8 are "original" why don't more Choy Lay Fut schools have these forms? Why didn't they survive and/or why weren't they handed down?

It just doesn't seem to add up. :confused:

[Fu-Pow]

Personally I think that forms are more of a modern phenomenon. I mean think about it martial arts were designed for fighting, why do you need "X" number of sets just practice techniques and do drills then fight.

Sorry to stray off track.

Peace.

Tao Lu serves several purposes.....

1)Compact workout routine that allows you to practice many aspects of the art in a short time frame.

2)Develops correct form (Xing) and the body mechanics (Jin) that support good form.

3)Serves as a "catalogue" of methods/techniques (Fa) and strategy (Tao) of the style. (That reminds me I need to add Fa to my sig)


I don't think you could get all that just by doing drills and sparring. I think that you'd miss a whole lot if you got rid of forms altogether.

[CLFNole]

I am not saying that forms are not important, its the number of forms mainly I am referring to.

Why would you need more than 20 different hand sets or 10 different staff forms to develop the items you mentioned?

As far as the supposed 9 original forms, if they were real it could be possible that names could have changed over the years. But as far as the animal sets and baat kwa sets when they came in is anyone's guess. Maybe Chan Hueng developed them at a later stage?

I don't know and really don't care too much. What is important is what is around today that is all we can really concern ourselves with anyhow.

Peace.

[kei lun]

Fu Pow,

Why dont other schools have our forms? I honestly dont know. I never really bothered asking my sifu or others in my clan about what is "original" or "authentic" in the system, I didnt think that would be polite on my part and not sure if I would get an answer anyway.
It would be concievable that these are the originals, or even that they are made up forms, Im happy either way.
It has always seemed to me that these were original from Jeung Yim, considering we have 4 lines from Jeung Yim. However, knowing that no other schools seem to share our forms makes me wonder.

All I can say is that in all our forms, hand and weapon, we have no forms that share "names" with any of the forms from the Chan Style, except Ping Keun.


Keilun

[Shaolindynasty]

"many different systems have a lin wan kuen. the one shaolin dynasty is speaking has to do with continuous cyclic panther punches. that one is tam sams creation"

Actually no the set I refer to isn't Tam Sams creation. It was created by my sigung To Hon Cheung.

[hskwarrior]

shaolin dynasty, is to hon cheung related to au hon cheung?

[CLFNole]

It wouldn't appear so since "To" and "Au" would be different last names. To Hon Cheung was a student of Fong Yuk Shu.

[hskwarrior]

i thought the cheung was the last name while au and to being the first names?

[CLFNole]

Chinese write the last name first.

[hskwarrior]

clfnole,

i have been raised around chinese all my life. i know this already. i think the chinese population outranks florida's greatly, so aside from language there's not much you can teach me about the chinese, bro. im no square when it comes to chinese. just because i chose not to go and date, marry, or hunt down chinese girls, or even begin to think im chinese, doesn't mean that i am clueless to the chinese at all.

when it comes to language i suck.

and not all chinese use the last name first.

[CLFNole]

Dude don't get your panties in a bunch. Who said you were clueless?

To Hon Cheung was from Hong Kong all Hong Kong people use last name first, not the U.S. way. Generally only Americanized chinese will write their names the US way, 9 time out of 10 its the traditional way, but then you already knew that since you have been around chinese all your life. As a CLF person I would have thought for sure you may have heard of To Hong Cheung.

By the way why do you always have to bring up dating a chinese? My wife is chinese, so what, she was my sifu's daughter, again so what. I could care less if she was from Timbucktu, people are people.

[brothernumber9]

****! that had to be some crazy pressure initially. Dating your Sifu's daughter, especially knowing who your Sifu was, and how protective some of your senior classmates and uncles/aunts must have been.

[CLFNole]

Brother#9

Lets put it this way, I always joke if my sifu were still alive I probably wouldn't be. He knew we were dating but passed away soon after because of the heart transplant. We married over 4 years later but you can bet your arse he heard many things from his older students like "make sure you take good care of her or else!!".

Actually I have a good relationship with my sifu's senior students because they know I have put my money were my mother is and took care of his family. My mother-in-law still lives with me and can always if she wants.

I wouldn't recommend it but love is love.

[Shaolindynasty]

To is the last name. I wonder what his skill was like, I met his son To Sum and he is of advanced age but crazy fast and has incredible footwork.

Anyway, the confusion over lein wan kuen shows that it would be nearly impossible to compile a list of all forms from all schools of CLF. Some may have the same name but be a different set, also sifu a creating new forms all the time.

I place my greatest emphasis on basic skills, good for fighting and good for learning whatever forms I want.

I belive the basic skills are more important than any "original form", come to think of it the basic skills must have been created before the "original" forms. So that would make them the core.

[hskwarrior]

i don't wear panties! I wear g-strings! Get it straight!:eek: :mad:

YOU wear Panties,....the ruffly kind!:eek:

get some help bro! seriously!

[Ou Ji]

Now there's a visual none of us wanted.

*pulls out Victoria's Secret catalog to flush my eyes*

:D :D :D

[hskwarrior]

i don't always bring up dating chinese. i don't know where you got that from. you must feel under the spot light with dating someone outside of your race, but to inform you, i personally have never in my life (37 years now) dated a white girl. i have always been attracted to asian my whole life, but my girl now is mexican, but so what?! if it doesn't bother you than don't sweat anyone mentioning white guys dating asian girls.

now, if you don't know already, there are a lot of "wannabe-Chinese" folks out there. and they all want to do is learn gung fu and date chinese girls, act like their chinese, get chinese style hair cuts, start driving rice rockets instead of the good old chevy muscle cars. often-more often than not you have a bunch of white people (usually i see it from white folks) who learn a little chinese, although never in their past have they done this but now are dating chinese girls, then have to nerve to correct chinese or anyone else for that matter about the usage of their own language.

clfnole. you don't come from a place with such a asian population as the bay area. you don't see what goes on over hear. you may or may not be one of those white guys who dated asian girls because it was different than anything or anyone they've ever dated. who you married is your own business. in my post i wasn't referring to you indirectly or directly, it was general. so don't take what i said personal. there is no crusade for "white guys who date asian girls" thing happening here. ALL I WAS REFERRING TO WAS WHITE GUYS WHO LOSE THEIR OWN IDENTITIES AFTER GETTING A LITTLE TASTE OF ASIAN PUNANNY.

as i've said, knowing the chinese culture is as common as Volvo's are to white people.

For those who say "But he's white himself".....i never grew up around white people. mom's was an only child, pops is of filipino/irish desent. so i was raised around a lot of filipino's, chinese, mexicans, african americans. Never any caucasians. so don't be mad, this was all i knew for most of my life. I'm broadening my horizons!

nothing pesonal clfnole! but can i borrow your panties.

oh, and since you married a chinese, you lost all your power. becaucse chinese girls are the boss in the relationship. haha!

[hskwarrior]

ou ji, don't lie, tell the truth!

let them know you bought me them g-strings;)


hahahahahahaha

[CLFNole]

Frank:

I am more of a briefs guy myself because those G-Strings itch like crazy. You got the boss thing right thats for sure, just kidding actually my wife isn't bad in that department she just spends too much money shopping.

The way you wrote your post earlier you addressed it to "clfnole" and in said at least you don't chase chinese, etc..., so I assumed you were referring to me. If it wasn't addressed to me I wouldn't have taken it personal but your brought up my wife in a previous post in which you thought I was attacking you. I drive a Volvo and my wife is the only chinese or asian girl I have ever dated, no rice rocket or frog button shirts for me.

In any case I have nothing against you but you seem to get rather defensive sometimes when there is no reason to. Remember this whole internet thing is a bit of a joke to begin with.

Peace.

[Ben Gash]

The Choy Lee Fut of the Chui Cheung Assoc. only has 8 forms. Among these are Taai Ji Keun, Ping Ji Keun, Tin Ji Keun and Gok Ji Keun. I have never heard of these forms outside of this association... except in the movie "Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut" where he went through these forms.
I have a load of information on this line, and I've actually got 12 forms written down.(Sow Choy, this is the line that drunken form is from).
I've also got a list of Chan Yiu Chi forms which states 28 hand forms (including all ten animals).

[kei lun]

You may have a little information on this line, but out of those 12 forms you have written down 4 of them are created by descendants of Jeung Yim, including the Drunken Form. Of the other 8, they may or may not be originally from Jeung Yim, though that is the story.

Keilun

[Ben Gash]

While that is probably true (indeed, I do know that the drunken form was not from Jeong Yim), it's not exactly what you said in your original post, is it?

[hskwarrior]

the jeong yim branch does not teach the drunken 8 immortals, it is not typically a jeong yim form. however, there is a drunken form from fut san that jeong yim did pass down i forger the name but it has Jui in its name. still, it is a closely guarded set and they are very selective with who they pass it down to.

[kei lun]

Ben Gash,

Pretty clever arent you. Yes, I suppose I didnt say that properly. What I should have said is that we have 8 core forms, that are practiced in all of our branches, and we hold those to be our original material. Of the remaining 4 on your list (there are 6 more actually) , depending on who the teacher is there is little or alot of attention placed on those forms because they are not our core ones, I like them though.

Hskwarrior,

I think that one may be "jui lau keun" your thinking of, but I may me mistaken.

[Ben Gash]

Indeed, that's the form I was referring to.

[hskwarrior]

yeah thats the one, but its jow not lau. im sure chui kwong yuen has it since he is of our lineage in the fut san hsk.

fut san holds it as a treasured set, not sure to how the moves are compared to other teachers, you know each school may have a different version but the set is still the same.

hsk

[Fu-Pow]

I also have "Jui Lau Kuen" on my big list. Translates as something like "Drunken Slip Fist." I got the name of that form from a student of that Green Dragon Guy in Canada. Sorry, forgot his name. I think he's a classmate of Paul Chan.

[Ben Gash]

That form isn't from Green Dragon. The guy you got it from left Chan Yin Wah in 2000, and for a while trained with a Hung Sing Guy (which is where he got Joi Lau Kuen), before meeting and becoming a disciple of his new master.

[Fu-Pow]

That form isn't from Green Dragon. The guy you got it from left Chan Yin Wah in 2000, and for a while trained with a Hung Sing Guy (which is where he got Joi Lau Kuen), before meeting and becoming a disciple of his new master.

Ah so....;)

[kei lun]

That Hung Sing Guy was me, and I didnt teach him Jui Lau Keun. But it was from him that my list got out in the first place.

[Ben Gash]

Ahh, I did wonder ;)

[htowndragon]

i know that a hop gar school in hong kong only trains individual seed fists and drills.

are there any notable CLF practitioners that only train drills and seed fists?