Connection between Yue Fie/Fantzi/ Liu Ho Xin Yi Quan

[Sal Canzonieri]

Many of the moves in Fan tzi forms are very similar in function and looks to moves in Xin Yi Quan, such as stepping out with one foot raised slightly above the ground.
Also, Yue family martial art style, which is recognized as a root to Dai family Xin Yi and Henan Xin Yi styles, is atributed to come from Yue Fei's teacher, who was Zhou Dong, who taught/practiced Shaolin (Lohan) and FanTzi (when it was called Ba Shan Fan).

he Fanzi Quan ballad says: "Wu Mu has passed down the Fanzi Quan which has mystery in its straightforward movements." Wu Mu is the other name for Yue Fei.

And, "dantien rotations and power releasing methods, which at times have a close similarity to the xinyiliuhe methods" is what is attributed to Fantzi.

What is very interesting about this statementis that eventually what is called Yueh Fei Jia Quan reached Henan province, via the decendents of one of Yueh Fei's army officers, Niu Gao, and eventually Dai Long Beng and his sons, and Guo Waihen, went to Shijiadian in Henan where dai owned an inn in 1838, learned this Yueh Fei Jia Quan from Niu Xixian in 1841,
and he incoporated the "dantien rotations and power releasing methods, which at times have a close similarity to the xinyiliuhe methods" into his Xin Yi Liu He Quan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

There are many styles of Chuan named after General Yue Fei of the Southern Song Dynasty (1127-1279) These include Yue-family Chuan of Hubei, Henan and Anhui provinces, Yue-school fist plays of Hunan and Sichuan provinces, Yue-family martial arts of Guangdong Province, Yue Fei Sanshau and Yue-style chain of fist plays. These different Chuan styles have been influenced by local culture and practices as well as individual styles.

Although it has combined the old and new Chuan theories and practices, the Yue-family Chuan is based primarily upon the principles of combining inner and outer bodies, theory and application. Its various tricks stem from its principal philosophy of the positive and negative and the five elements of the heart, liver, lung, spleen and kidney in the human body.

Investigation has found that the Yue-family Chuan practised in Huangmei County of Hubei Province is simple and uncomplicated and has a close relationship with the Yue family. It is believed to have been created by General Yue Fei and passed down by his sons, Yue Zhen and Yue Ting, and his subordinates. They taught the arts of Yue-family Chuan in Huangmei, Guangji, Qichun in Hubei as well as the southeastern part of the province. This style of Chuan has been practised by 20 generations over about 800 years. It is recorded that General Yue Fei had been to Huangmei twice, and Yue Zhen accompanied his father and stayed in Huangmei. After Yue Fei was framed and secretly killed by treacherous officials of the Imperial Court, Yue Ting went to join Yue Zhen in Huangmei. The Yue's practised the Chuan and trained their army men in an attempt to avenge their father's death until the Song Dynasty perished. However, the Yue-family Chuan was passed down from generation to generation.

The Yue-family Chuan now practised in Henan Province is said to have been passed on by a person named Fan from Tangyin in Henan, who followed Yue Fei in his expedition against invaders from the Jin Dynasty in the north. When Fan returned to his native town, he taught the Yue-family Chuan and weapon plays to his offspring, including Fan Ju who mastered the arts and continued to pass them down.

In Emperor Daoguang's reign (1821-1850) of the Qing Dynasty, martial arts instructor Liu Shijun of Hebei taught a nine-move Yue-style fist play in the barracks of Beijing garrison. His disciple Liu Dekuan developed the style to make it an easy-to-learn, well-linked style of unarmed play. Thus it is called Yue-style linked Chuan.

The Yue-family Chuan features simplicity and steadiness. Its tricks are clear and clear-cut. When delivering blows, boxers articulate sounds to help generate power. This style of Chuan combines breathing and mentality to make fist blows powerful and complete. It resorts more to fist plays than to feet plays and does not lift the knees, nor does it wield elbows away from the body.

The Henan-style Yue-family Chuan requires low stances and closed knees. When generation power, boxers jerk elbows and turn shoulder to pass energy to the fists.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The Yue Fei style has a form called Yue Family Ba Fan (8 Tumbles) Hand, it is essentially a Fantzi form, but way earlier than most fantzi style from today, cause Ba Shan Fan (old name for Fantzi) was supposed to be the style that Yue Fei learned (from Zhou Tong). Anways, this Yue Jia Ba Fan form looks a lot like XY.

Regardless of whether Yue Fei himself actually created these forms or Zhou Tong or other people during the Sung Dynasty, it is the decendents of people associated with his army, such as the Niu family, that spread this version of Ba Shan Fan/Fantzi and called it Yue Fei jia Quan. And, these people are very close to areas of Henan province where Lie Hu Xin Yi Quan exists.

Even Jarek's site talks about a town in Henan where the people do a very primitive version of Xin Yi there and they mention it to be Yue Fei Quan: " Recently one of Chinese martial arts magazines published an article about a discovery of a new branch of Xinyiquan, related neither to Moslem nor Dai Family. The style is practiced only in a very small community in a small village in Henan Province. Many facts seem to support the thesis that the style is a "living remain" of Yue Fei's boxing from before Ji Longfeng's times. For example - one of the rules of that style does not allow to pass the boxing to people with the last name Qin - probably because Yue Fei was betrayed (which resulted in death sentence) by Qin Hui, minister in Song court. The style shows some similarity to other Xinyi branches, but its movements are more simple, methodology of Neigong (internal exercises) is practically non-existent and emphasis is put on practical fighting skills."

Ancient Ba Shan Fan has the dantian rotation, the five elements, the 6 harmony, and a good number of moves in some of their forms that are very similar to Xin Yi Ba form moves. Supposedly Ba Shan Fan comes from a Monk named Zhou Tong, who if he studied Shaolin from the early Song Dynasty time period, most have learned Lohan and 6 harmony boxing. He also most likely had learned Tong Bei since it was very common at the time he was around. If you mix moves from forms of 18 Lohan Hands and Tong Bei it looks a lot like Ba Shan Fan (Fan tzi) essentially. Interesting that Dong Hai Chuan also studied Ba Shan Fan from his uncle, since it was his village/family style and is said to have studied Lohan as well. Cause the same moves are in common to Lohan, tong bei, ba fan shan, Ba Qua, and XY.

(on a side topic: I find it weird that Eagle Claw says it was created from combining Fantzi and Yue Fei Quan together since Yue Fei is derived from Fantzi in the first place)

[Sal Canzonieri]

Another pondering:

What about the Shaolin Xin Yi Ba form.

Some at Shaolin say that it is a very old form, from back
when the Lohan forms were originally being done.

One source says instead that Shaolin got the form from
Ji Jike when he visited Shaolin for a while.

Liu Ho Xin Yi Quan of Henan, of course, has the form as well. Depending on when the form originated, either they got the form from Shaolin or they got it from Ji Jike's students (Ma lineage).

Since the form "Fan Tzi Lian Huan Yuan Yang" is very similar to the Xin Yi Ba form, very similar, if Ji Jike had the form first, before Shaolin, then he got it from the Yueh Fei influence.

If you skip the Chuo Jiao kicks in this Fan Tzi form, there are about 3 of them, the rest of this form is pretty close to the Shaolin Xin Yi Ba form shown in the Shaolin Da Quan (aka Shaolin Encyclopedia). The Fan Tzi form is a lot longer, but it contains within it all the moves shown in the Shaolin Xin Yi Ba form.

The main clue that Henan Xin Yi maybe comes from Fan Tzi (when it was Ba Shan Fan) is that Henan Xin Yi forms, especially its Xin Yi Ba form, share even more moves with the Fan Tzi forms.
Both style share the very distinctive move seen in Henan Xin Yi Quan, which is stepping forward with the Foot raised up, toes pointing up.

All three forms share the move where both arms are swung to one side and then the other. The primary move of each of these forms.

Jarek's site says that CMA researchers say that Fantzi and XY share many moves and it may be because they both might be derived from Wen Family Boxing style, an offshoot of Sung Tai Tzu Style.

Recently I got a big fat book (in Chinese) of all Fantzi forms, in the back of the book is a form that they say is ancient and for training, and it looks nothing like the other forms in the book, it very much looks like the person is doing XY in every way, looks nothing like anything else in the book at all, but it does look a lot like XY.

[chud]

Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing.

[Sal Canzonieri]

thanks,

Now I hear that Fantzi Chuo Jiao was derived from Wen Family Boxing, which is
derived from Sung Tai Tzu Quan (bizarrely enough!).
And, maybe both Fantzi and Xin Yi might share the same roots in Wen Jia Quan.

Anyone have any info about Wen Family Boxing?

[Tripitaka of AA]

With regards to Wen Family Boxing, would any of these names fit?
The quotation is in reference to the man who taught SO Doshin one of the styles that helped him create Shorinji Kempo.


In relation to Wen Taizong´s name, I must say that he was also known as Ziming, but I have never heard other names of him, though I have read other transcriptions from chinese as Wen Lao Cho or Wen Lanshi.

[Sal Canzonieri]

With regards to Wen Family Boxing, would any of these names fit?
The quotation is in reference to the man who taught SO Doshin one of the styles that helped him create Shorinji Kempo.

Wen Lan Shi sounds familiar.

[Tripitaka of AA]

Aha! In that case, do you have any online sources that may have any further details about him?

I'm not up on Chinese romanisation, how to turn Chinese characters into Roman letters, could you just confirm for me that the characters which Japanese people read as Shorinji Kempo are read in Mandarin as "Shaolin-ssu Chu'an Fa". I've seen so many variations on spelling that I've lost track of the proper version.

And is it also the case that the sign above the door of the Temple is read from right to left (ssu-lin-shao, or ji-rin-sho)

[Sal Canzonieri]

Aha! In that case, do you have any online sources that may have any further details about him?

I'm not up on Chinese romanisation, how to turn Chinese characters into Roman letters, could you just confirm for me that the characters which Japanese people read as Shorinji Kempo are read in Mandarin as "Shaolin-ssu Chu'an Fa". I've seen so many variations on spelling that I've lost track of the proper version.

And is it also the case that the sign above the door of the Temple is read from right to left (ssu-lin-shao, or ji-rin-sho)

I have a little bit of material on the Wen style, but I'm not sure that Wen Lan Shi
is connected to it.
You are looking for one thing and I am looking for another.
I'll see what I can find for you, patience please.

Umm, yep, temple sign is read from right to left.
I doubt that's the original sign at Shaolin, its a newer reproduction more than likely, since the late 1970s/early 80s?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Aha! In that case, do you have any online sources that may have any further details about him?

I'm not up on Chinese romanisation, how to turn Chinese characters into Roman letters, could you just confirm for me that the characters which Japanese people read as Shorinji Kempo are read in Mandarin as "Shaolin-ssu Chu'an Fa". I've seen so many variations on spelling that I've lost track of the proper version.

And is it also the case that the sign above the door of the Temple is read from right to left (ssu-lin-shao, or ji-rin-sho)

Shorinji Kempo, in Chinese is Shaolin Si Quan Fah, usual way to romanize it nowadays. "Shaolin Temple Boxing Method"

Shao Lin Si Ch'uan Fa is ok too.

[Tripitaka of AA]

I have a little bit of material on the Wen style, but I'm not sure that Wen Lan Shi
is connected to it.
You are looking for one thing and I am looking for another.
I'll see what I can find for you, patience please.


My thanks Sal, it is clear that you have way more knowledge in this area than I. Any scraps that you can throw my way shall be gratefully recieved :).