white tiger forms

[white tiger]

Is white tiger an authentic form of shaolin kung fu ? THANKS!:confused:

[neit]

i'm pretty sure that style exists. however there are several schools in my city using that name that many consider fraudulent.

[Brad]

The only "White Tiger" kungfu I know of is either Doo Wai's system who claim's it's Emei (if I remember correctly), one of the Kenpo schools (also not Chinese Shaolin kungfu, though some Kenpo schools use Shaolin in their name), and my first martial arts teacher who was a fraud (stole forms from a variety of sources and called his system White Tiger... was actually a red belt in Iron Tiger - a hybrid system - and bought/conned honorary black belts from different sources... and just flat out made up a couple ranks).

Which White Tiger school are you refering too?

[David Jamieson]

please don't say simon olaf's please don't say simon olaf's, please don't say simon olaf's....:p

[GeneChing]

Presently at Songshan Shaolin, Black Tiger Fist (http://www.martialartsmart.net/vidshaolkunb.html) is fairly popular. I haven't seen a White Tiger there, but that doens't mean that it's not there. And this doesn't address the hordes of authentic Shaolin derived arts.

[David Jamieson]

Hey G~

You wouldn't happen to know where that shaolin black tiger came from do you?
Did the shaolin create it to fill a void or was it bestowed upon them by a folk master from the surrounding area?

enquiring minds want to know! :p

[GeneChing]

That's a fair question that's impossible to answer. No one is really documenting the re-introduction of styles at Shaolin - what was there and what came back is only recounted in hearsay. Does it matter? It's there now. And it's fairly common. I know that it's a big part of Taguo's traditional curriculum (if you can get past their sanda and wushu programs), so that might be a clue. Perhaps it was the Liu family who preserved it. I've seen it in the temple too, but I don't know the temple lineages for that one specifically. It'd be way to hard to track down.

Keep in mind that the folk master/monk thing is very grey. For some reason, a lot of MA people think that 'once a monk, always a monk' but Buddhism isn't like that really. For example, in Thailand, almost all the men will live as a monk for a year or so, sort of like how some countries like Israel make everyone serve in the military for a while. Some monks lived as common folk during the CR and returned to the temple when things mellowed out. So is that "bestowed upon them by a folk master from the surrounding area" or what?

[johngreenhow]

For what it's worth, my Master Shi De Meng also had a black tiger form. He joined the temple at 7 and left a good few years back - he's 40 now. I'm not really sure where this fits into the big picture though - and he never taught me the form, jsut demo'd a little of it on afternoon.

[kung fu fighter]

please don't say simon olaf's please don't say simon olaf's, please don't say simon olaf's....:p

Hi David,
is Simon Olaf the same guy that Own's the chain Temple Kung fu schools in Canada whom some refer to as grandmaster Simon?

Does anyone know whom grandmaster Simon learnt his white tiger kung fu from? was it Doo Wai?

I understand that he trained with some monk!!

[couch]

*********************
Hi David,
is Simon Olaf the same guy that Own's the chain Temple Kung fu schools in Canada whom some refer to as grandmaster Simon?

Does anyone know whom grandmaster Simon learnt his white tiger kung fu from? was it Doo Wai?

I understand that he trained with some monk!!
********************

I trained at Simon's chain school for 8-9 years of my life. I know about the court transcripts, the temple being built in Grand Forks BC, his monopoly on the uniforms and books that his schools promote, and all the B.S.

Simon did NOT learn any White Tiger style of kung-fu. It is something that he just named a class of "specially selected students" etc. The background of what he teaches is traditional Karate, Kenpo Karate and some basic Kung-Fu positions that they claim as advanced.

There are many classes that they teach at Temple Kung-Fu, all costing separate tuition: Kids Class, Adult Class, Kung-Fu Club (very secret club where you have to take an oath before they tell you how much it costs), Silver Dragons Sparring Club and the Pai Hu Shi (another VERY VERY secret club where you learn a couple of the Tai Chi forms or something that are supposed to be very dealy and you can only get into this club by invitation from the previous members and then you have to donate time and money to the Grand Forks, BC temple).

Hope this helps.

As far as White Tiger style...this (like many things) has a controversy behind it as well. The forms all resemble Bak Mei in the way they demonstrate Ging, but the elbows and some other things are considered SLOPPY by Bak Mei practicioners.

I know this info because my good friend was in both systems...white tiger first, then got a lot fixed when he went to bak mei.

Also, here is a link you may find interesting:

http://www.pakmei.net/articles/article.asp?ID=13

All the best in your search for truth..wherever it may be!!!

Sincerely,
Kenton Sefcik

[jmd161]

That's a fair question that's impossible to answer. No one is really documenting the re-introduction of styles at Shaolin - what was there and what came back is only recounted in hearsay. Does it matter? It's there now. And it's fairly common. I know that it's a big part of Taguo's traditional curriculum (if you can get past their sanda and wushu programs), so that might be a clue. Perhaps it was the Liu family who preserved it. I've seen it in the temple too, but I don't know the temple lineages for that one specifically. It'd be way to hard to track down.

Keep in mind that the folk master/monk thing is very grey. For some reason, a lot of MA people think that 'once a monk, always a monk' but Buddhism isn't like that really. For example, in Thailand, almost all the men will live as a monk for a year or so, sort of like how some countries like Israel make everyone serve in the military for a while. Some monks lived as common folk during the CR and returned to the temple when things mellowed out. So is that "bestowed upon them by a folk master from the surrounding area" or what?

Hmmmm,

From my knowledge Black Tiger was taught at the temple since Su Hak Fu created it. It was only taught at the temple until Fung Ping-Wei taught Kut Shuin~aka~ Wong Cheung and Su himself opened his school in Canton. In Canton Su taught both Wong Kei Ying and his son Wong Fei Hung Black Tiger.

Gene,

What info can you give me on the "Liu family" and "Taguo's traditional curriculum "???

I would like to know of their interactions within the Black Tiger Clan. Although, Black Tiger was only taught at the temple once upon a time, it's rumored that you had to be at a certain level within Shaolin to learn Black Tiger. So, the having to get past certain programs doesn't surprise me at all.


jeff:)

[r.(shaolin)]

Some sets of Hei Hu were taught at Shaolin Si. The history / legend passed on by our older generations concerning Hei Hu, say that these sets came from outside. They were introduced to Shaolin by a ‘lay’ Buddhist named Wei Wen Tong, who became a follower of Shaolin Monastery. He had learned this art in his hometown located in Shandong province. The whole style was not absorbed only some sets. Although many sets at Shaolin came from outside sources, Shaolin did not absorb entire styles but a select set or small group of select sets. In our lineage 5 of these sets are still practiced – 3 single hand sets, one, contact two person set, and one "eyebrow" height staff set.

r.

[jmd161]

Some sets of Hei Hu were taught at Shaolin Si. The history / legend passed on by our older generations concerning Hei Hu, say that these sets came from outside. They were introduced to Shaolin by a ‘lay’ Buddhist named Wei Wen Tong, who became a follower of Shaolin Monastery. He had learned this art in his hometown located in Shandong province. The whole style was not absorbed only some sets. Although many sets at Shaolin came from outside sources, Shaolin did not absorb entire styles but a select set or small group of select sets. In our lineage 5 of these sets are still practiced – 3 single hand sets, one, contact two person set, and one "eyebrow" height staff set.

r.


We're talking about two totally different styles here. You're speaking of Shantung (Shandong) Black Tiger which is a Northern China Black Tiger style. I'm speaking of Sil Lum Hak Fu Muhn, which was created by Su Hak Fu himself. Yes, there are sets of Shantung Black Tiger taught within Shaolin, but to my knowledge not Su Hak Fu's lineage of Black Tiger anymore.

Su Hak Fu himself taught his Black Tiger to the monks at shaolin, since rumor has it, he learned the arts to create it from them. Su Hak Fu's Black Tiger is very southern in flavor, but it's actually a mixture of Northern and Southern. The last Grandmaster of Sil Lum Hak Fu Muhn was Grandmaster Wong Cheung. Sigung Wong Cheung had chosen a successor in C Kuen Woo, but Kuen Woo left Hong Kong in the late 70's and came to America. Many reconise Kuen Woo as his successor, since he was the Chairman of The Black Tiger Assocation in Hong Kong.

Because of Su teaching his art to Wong Kei Ying and Wong Fei Hung. Hak Fu Muhn and Hung Gar have always been considered sister styles. Although, it's very few that the two styles actually share in common.

jeff:)

[timmons]

How Ironic White Tiger asking about White Tiger Forms. LOL!!!