Some research notes concerning Tang Lang

[Sal Canzonieri]

I've been researching CMA history for many years and my articles are in various KF mags, including this one (Kung Fu magazine).

I find it interesting about Tang Lang, that when the names of the 18 masters and their styles are reviewed, they are all from the Sung Dynasty time period.
Which adds credence to the theorygoing around a few yearts ago that Tang Lang actually got its start during the Sung Dynasty (early part) and not Qing dynasty.

2 or 3 of the 18 names are students of Monk Zhao Tong, who is known for being General Yueh Fei's teacher.
He taught Ba Shan Fan (now called Fantzi Quan).

Also, the classic hooked Mantis hand can be found in various forms from the Yueh Fei style.

[mantis108]

As far as my understanding goes, the 18 Families Sonnet originally came from "Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu" (Arhat exercising merit short strike illustrated manuscripts). The manuscript has many versions which includes one called Shaolin Yi Bol Zhen Chuan (Shaolin Authentics).

Some scholars suggested that Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu (herein known as the manuscript) is in fact a body of work reflecting the indigenous folk martial arts knowledge in the Province of Shandong around the mid 1700s. It is believed that the author, Shengxiao Daoren, cleverly borrowed the Shaolin fame. The 18 families sonnet actually are styles that are recorded in various Ming dynasty martial art books and could readily be found in Shandong. Shengxiao Daoren could have been a native of Shandong (west of Lao Shan, Qingdao). He also seemed to be a very travelled person. In the introduction of a later edition, he or his student claimed that the original copy of the manuscripts was "taken" by one of SXDR's students in capital of then Manchurian territeries (modern day ShengYang).

I believe the Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da as a style might have something to do with White Lotus cult or its derivatives due to the concepts and terms that are used to formulate the theory of the "style" - the so called Louhan Xing Gong Duan Da otherwise almost synonymous with Tanglang Fanche Which contains 7 front routines plus 2 auxiliary and 9 rear routines total of 18 (coincidence or deliberate design?). BTW, it is not just 16 routines as many have mantained IMHO. The 16 routines idea IMHO is probably "promoted" to explain the version that is "found" in the Shaolin temple that has only 16 routines. The author seemed to have studied Confucian. He quoted Mengzi a lot. He also had extensive knowledge of Yijing (Classics of Change) and quoted also something from Zhuangzi as well. In one of the volumes, that's the 18 Luohan Gong, the text actually mocked Buddhist monk order and borrowed many Yuan and Ming dynasty famous operas and novels tales (ie Water Margin). It would be hard to believe this is a work handed down by a Shaolin monk.

Personally, I believe there is an intimate relationship between Fanziquan (or its veriations) and White Lotus cult martial arts. There is also an intimate relationship between Tanglang (especially TJPM) and Fanzi IMHO. I think the case for Yue Fei taught Fanzi and its being "Shaolin authentic" (pardon the pun) is more a modern day political twist to give more MA centralization to the Henan Shaolin (we all know how much the mighty tourist dallors is worth.) ;)

Just sharing some thoughts

Mantis108

[Sal Canzonieri]

Thanks very much for that insight, much appreciated.

Those that claim Abbott Fu Ju, at Shandong Shaolin (later destroyed) temple, brought together the 18 masters (number is symbolic of course) during Sung Dynasty (during its end, when the Jin were taking over), say there is sung dynasty era
documentation from Shaolin that contains the list of people/styles as well.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Personally, I believe there is an intimate relationship between Fanziquan (or its veriations) and White Lotus cult martial arts. There is also an intimate relationship between Tanglang (especially TJPM) and Fanzi IMHO. I think the case for Yue Fei taught Fanzi and its being "Shaolin authentic" (pardon the pun) is more a modern day political twist to give more MA centralization to the Henan Shaolin (we all know how much the mighty tourist dallors is worth.) ;)

Just sharing some thoughts

Mantis108

Hmm, Fantzi (ba shan fan as it was called in ancient times) is known as a regular people's martial arts, like the farmers, peasants, etc.
It would seem to be a likely candidate then for White lotus, being anti-Qing rule, would adopt it.

Also, Dung Hai Chuan, Ba Qua founder, had learned Ba Shan Fan from his relatives, and he was also a member of a rebel secret society group, yes?

Does anyone have more info about Monk (if he really was one) Zhou Tong (dozens of variations of spelling seen for his name).
Who his teacher was? If he really is documented to be Yueh Fei's martial art teacher (spear, archery, etc).
Whatever other facts known about him?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Some people believe Tang Lang was created to beat the Shaolin monks.
Why?
By whom?

It for sure has Tai Tzu Quan and Tong Bei as it's base, because I have seen Tai Tzu Quan forms that look so much like Mantis you wouldn't know the difference if someone didn't tell you it was Tai tzu.

And the Tong Bei moves in Tang Lang Quan are pretty obvious.

The Ba Shan Fan moves in tang lang quan are easy to find as well.

Tai Tzu shares the Monkey stepping as well with tang lang quan.

[mantis108]

You are most welcome. I appreciate the subject that you brought up. I think very few people have go to the extend of research that you have. So I appreciate your sharing as well.


Those that claim Abbott Fu Ju, at Shandong Shaolin (later destroyed) temple, brought together the 18 masters (number is symbolic of course) during Sung Dynasty (during its end, when the Jin were taking over), say there is sung dynasty era
documentation from Shaolin that contains the list of people/styles as well.

Fu Ju in the manuscript is believed to be a rendition of Fu Yu (1242 CE) the actually monk who headed the debate between the Budhists and the Daoist and sucessfully regained all the Budhist temples previously occupied by the Daoist. Yuan dynasty (mongolians) respects Buddhism. It's not likely that they would do harm to the Buddhist order. I am not sure about the Jin though so...

Regarding the 18 masters, I believe you need to give a clear stance on whether it is actually those 18 masters (in names and persons) as written in the manuscript or it is a symbolic number only. This makes a huge difference. Personally, I would agreed that it is symbolic in nature and the master's names aren't really that important but the styles are important.

As for the Song Dynasty document, I have never seen it. Is it authenticated by a reliable scholitic source?


Hmm, Fantzi (ba shan fan as it was called in ancient times) is known as a regular people's martial arts, like the farmers, peasants, etc.
It would seem to be a likely candidate then for White lotus, being anti-Qing rule, would adopt it.

Agreed


Also, Dung Hai Chuan, Ba Qua founder, had learned Ba Shan Fan from his relatives, and he was also a member of a rebel secret society group, yes?

I believe Dung Hai Chuan, was a member of Ba Qua Jiao (8 Trigram Cult) which was a derivative of White Lotus. BQJ later became the Yihe Quan (Righteous Harmory Fist).


Does anyone have more info about Monk (if he really was one) Zhou Tong (dozens of variations of spelling seen for his name).

Regarding this, I would point to the fact that there is a novel about the life and time of Yue Fei. I used to have it when I was in Hong Kong but I lost it when I moved to Canada. So we have to take into consideration that some tales may be ficticous.


Who his teacher was? If he really is documented to be Yueh Fei's martial art teacher (spear, archery, etc).
Whatever other facts known about him?

I don't have an answer or theory on that neither.


Some people believe Tang Lang was created to beat the Shaolin monks.
Why?

I believe this is a spin that came from the 18 families sonnet. Depending of the version, line 17 or line 18 either said Wang Lang's mantis subdue enemy or Wang Lang's mantis conquers all (mostly Mantis' own version which is understandably biased). There used to be a story by the Qingdao contingent that said the late Ming and early Qing rebel named Yu Qi who escaped to Shaolin temple after his failed attempt, was the supposed Wang Lang but this has been proven not true lately.


By whom?

In the manuscript, it seemed to suggest Wang Lang. But mainly is found in the 18 families sonnet.


It for sure has Tai Tzu Quan and Tong Bei as it's base, because I have seen Tai Tzu Quan forms that look so much like Mantis you wouldn't know the difference if someone didn't tell you it was Tai tzu.

And the Tong Bei moves in Tang Lang Quan are pretty obvious.

The Ba Shan Fan moves in tang lang quan are easy to find as well.

Tai Tzu shares the Monkey stepping as well with tang lang quan.

I am a bit press on time so I will quote something that I wrote relating to this


The 18 families sonnet has been researched by Mainland scholars (ie Chang Dali) and it is believed that it could be based on other Ming dynasty martial arts or military arts documents (ie Ji Xiao Xin Shu).

There is also a Qing dynasty record that suggests Neijia Quan (internal pugilism) might have been Tongbi/Tongbei Quan and was introduced to the imperial palace ground by Song Taizu who took his personal guards, mostly from Szechuan as the story goes, that were well versed in Tongbiquan or rather Pigua. They were known as internal rank personale; hence, the term Neijia Quan. In Hebei province, Double Winged Tongbi also known as Meihwa Chang Bi Mo Quan (plumblossom long arm mother fist). In Shanxi, Hongdong Tongbi is known as Changquan.

What this basically mean is that Tongbi, Pigua, and Taizu (Chang Quan) or even Neijia Quan for that matter might just be the same in the beginning and they took on different flavors as lineages emerged and/or people used to called them by different names but in essence is the samething they are referred to. Another old style Fanzi is IMHO a spin off of this "Chang Quan" phenomenon. Kung Fu is Kung Fu.

If we look at the "Shaolin Authentics" which essentially is the theoretical portion of "Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da" and the very source of this so called 18 families sonnet, we will see that it is more or less Tongbi/Pigua in nature. Also the fact that the very idea of "mother" being mentioned in such a Daoist, Buddhist and Confucious concepts blending document suggests to me that it might have been a work by someone who was involved in the White Lotus (or its derivatives) movement through out the dynasties. Such cults believe in a diety called "Mu Sheng Lao Mo" roughly translated as the mother of unborn.

Anyway, I digressed. The point is that anything from the "Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da" manuscripts at best leads us to a connection between Tongbi/Pigua and Tanglang and it's more than likely that it's sometime from middle to late Ming and Early Qing dynasty. I wouldn't even be surprised if it is mid 1700s work based on one or more of Shandong's folk arts but borrowed the Henan Shaolin fame as a marketing point.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[libingshao]

I am not as well versed as you guys and I must say that I appreciate the discussion, I am learning a lot.

I thought Yan Qing and Lin Chong were both folk characters out of the novel Outlaws of the Marsh. Also earlier this year someone wrote about another of the characters being from a Chinese Opera placed in the Song Dynasty.

Also, in order to accept the Song Dynasty timeframe don't you have to accept the several hundred year period when no one practiced Mantis Boxing. That this ultimate system was created at Shaolin then no one practiced it.

Finally, I have read often that no mantis boxing can be found anywhere near Shaolin, only in Shandong. It is strange the even the founder did not spread the art, if not Shaolin.

Again I appreciate everyone's contribution to the discussion. Mine is not so much but here it is.

Libingshao

[BeiTangLang]

Excellent thread!

[Sal Canzonieri]

I am not as well versed as you guys and I must say that I appreciate the discussion, I am learning a lot.

I thought Yan Qing and Lin Chong were both folk characters out of the novel Outlaws of the Marsh. Also earlier this year someone wrote about another of the characters being from a Chinese Opera placed in the Song Dynasty.

Also, in order to accept the Song Dynasty timeframe don't you have to accept the several hundred year period when no one practiced Mantis Boxing. That this ultimate system was created at Shaolin then no one practiced it.

Finally, I have read often that no mantis boxing can be found anywhere near Shaolin, only in Shandong. It is strange the even the founder did not spread the art, if not Shaolin.

Again I appreciate everyone's contribution to the discussion. Mine is not so much but here it is.

Libingshao


From what I have been researching, it is very doubtful that Shaolin from Henan developed this.
When they say Shaolin, by the time of the Sung Dynasty, there was more than one satellite temple connected to the Henan temple.
Fu Ju was the abbott, but he was sent to Shandong province area.

The gap in historical records from after the Sung dynasty not only effects info on Tang Lang history, but also Xin Yi Quan history, and even Henan Shaolin forms history.

Anyone ever associated with Tang Lang is somone from Shandong, all the styles associated are from Shandong.

If you look at Sung Dynasty era styles from Shandong, for example Di Tang, (earthquake style), it's forms (not it's more famous ground fighting forms) like
Wu Chang Quan (Five hand) has many N Mantis like leg movements, stepping patterns, stances, etc.

Tai Tzu Quan forms have loads of similarity to N Mantis as well.
There was a great documentatry on that style, and they had many people do the forms, and one was so much like N Mantis that it was uncanny!

And, if you really dig into Tang Lang possible history, there was another 6 Harmony Mantis older than the more modern 6 Harmony Manti style.

I'm pretty sure that Tang Lang from Sung Dynasty one was practiced in Shandong and passed from person to person, leading to other styles that superceded their mantis roots.
Also, ancient Tang Lang might have looked a lot more like old styles like Fantzi/tai zu/Shaolin than the way 7 Star Mantis does the forms with a super "mantis" like look.

I'm pretty convinced that Tang Lang developed in the Sung Dynasty. Makes the most sense to me, based on what I have read.

I will try to gather some info from Sung Dynasty records about the style and post it here, when I can get the chance, very busy with everyday life right now.

[libingshao]

I am no scholar on Shaolin Si but what I have always heard was that there were possible temples at Henan,, Fukien, Kwangtung, Wutang, O Mei Shan. What temples are you familar with in Shandong province?

I took this limitation in Shaolin branches as to why the legend of Tanglangquan say that though it might have been created at Shaolin, it was preserved at Lao Shan in Shandong at a Daoist Temple and taught there by the legendary Shen Xiao Dao Ren(1) (in the Ming Dynasty Origin Story) or (2) was taked from Henan Shaolin Si (in the Song Dynasty origin story) and taught by the same Shen Xiao Dao Ren to none other than Libingshao, a failed scholar. (Hmmmmm, that sounds vaguely autobiographical).

With either legend the Song or the Ming dynasty origin, both hold that the system emerged either from a two hundred or eight hundred nap by way of this same person, Shen Xiao Dao Ren. I have not heard of a legend where the system continue to be propagated throughout this period, unlike styles like Bai Yuan Tong Bei which appear and disappear throughout history.

Your research has REALLY piqued my interest. I hate to trouble you but I hope you have time to post more info on your historical perspective!

Great to share perspectives!

Libingshao

[Sal Canzonieri]

I am no scholar on Shaolin Si but what I have always heard was that there were possible temples at Henan,, Fukien, Kwangtung, Wutang, O Mei Shan. What temples are you familar with in Shandong province?

I took this limitation in Shaolin branches as to why the legend of Tanglangquan say that though it might have been created at Shaolin, it was preserved at Lao Shan in Shandong at a Daoist Temple and taught there by the legendary Shen Xiao Dao Ren(1) (in the Ming Dynasty Origin Story) or (2) was taked from Henan Shaolin Si (in the Song Dynasty origin story) and taught by the same Shen Xiao Dao Ren to none other than Libingshao, a failed scholar. (Hmmmmm, that sounds vaguely autobiographical).

With either legend the Song or the Ming dynasty origin, both hold that the system emerged either from a two hundred or eight hundred nap by way of this same person, Shen Xiao Dao Ren. I have not heard of a legend where the system continue to be propagated throughout this period, unlike styles like Bai Yuan Tong Bei which appear and disappear throughout history.

Your research has REALLY piqued my interest. I hate to trouble you but I hope you have time to post more info on your historical perspective!

Great to share perspectives!

Libingshao


I dont have my notes in front of me right now, but from what I remember, supposedly Shaolin in Henan was in total disrepair and closed down (which historically speaking indeed happened many times), and
Abbott Fu Ju went to a Shaolin affliated temple in Shandong, which is now gone, destroyed over time by wars.

While in Shandong, he assembled many masters (18, which is obviously a symbolic buddhist number, 18 lohan, etc) to rebuild the martial arts curriculum and improve on it. Together they created the Qing Gong (Jing Gong) school of Shaolin martial art, and documented over 200 forms. These documents were copied and kept in the library in Shaolin in henan. These I think still exist.
The Beng Bu Tang Land Quan was just one form of many that were developed there.

You know, there are various obscure branches of N Mantis that do not come from the main styles, they do come from people who learned it from independent sources not connected to the 3 main stlyes (Plum Flower, 7 Star, 6 harmony).

[Sal Canzonieri]

Here's some random stuff I found:

During the period "Wu Di" in the "Liang"-Dynastie Wu Shu - masters from all over came together at the Shaolin - Temple. Also WANG LANG was invited to teach TANG LANG there. After three years in the Shaolin - Temple he withdrew from the world. Outside the temple this art was not taught lightly.

In the prime of the Shaolin Wu Shu Eighteen styles were systematized by FUJI CHANSHI (honorary title for a Buddhist monk). TANG LANG QUAN belonged to them with sixteen sequences (the so-called "Puogu Da", "Fanche Da", "Tang Lang Da" and "Jiu Zhuan Shiba Die").

FUJI CHANSHI handed over TANG LANG QUAN to SHENG XIAO Daoren who was the abbot of the Yunhua - Temple in the Lu - community, northwest Cha - circle, province Shandong. He brought this art to the people. Among other things he wrote a book over the style. Therein the eighteen parts of the "Luohan Neigong" (exercise for the strengthening of the internal organs) were described. Each part contains four to five sequences (altogether 69 sequences). Pictures were drawn according to the postures, as well as 69 “Memory” – rhymes were written. That was the oldest and most complete book about Shaolin Neigong.

And:

Chinese historians have identified Meng Xi of Qixia in Shandong (AD 1609-1702) whose remains sit at Huayan Si on Laoshan, as a likely candidate. Even so, there is no historical evidence whatsoever that he is the creator of Tanglang Quan.

In the oral and written tradition Wang Lang is accredited as the founding father and the Daoist monks of Laoshan, Shandong as his initial inheritors. Traditionally the monk responsible for transmitting the developed system to the first lay disciple is known as Sheng Xiao Daoren.
Sheng Xiao Daoren may quite possibly have existed and indeed passed on Tanglang Quan, unfortunately this is also not historically verifiable. He is more than likely, a folk figure representing the generation that fills the gap between Wang Lang (the legendary founder), and genuine historical figures such as Li Zhizhan and Li Bingxiao (of Meihua Tanglang fame), who we can accurately label as propagators of Tanglang. Quan Pu (Boxing scrolls), attributed to Sheng Xiao Daoren exist in various forms, none of which are yet to be authenticated. The mysterious Sheng Xiao, has been variously placed throughout many time frames spanning hundreds of years in traditional Tanglang history. To this day there are no official records listing Sheng Xiao Daoren as a living person.

(by the way, Daoren is a title, not a last name, it generally means priest.)

[Sal Canzonieri]

More:

Though thought to have been initially practiced and disseminated by the Daoists of Laoshan, Tanglang Quan is in fact closely related to Shaolin Boxing as is evidenced by the inclusion of such boxing forms as Xiaohuyan Quan, Si Lu Benda and Cha Chui Quan in the mantis curriculum.

The influence of Shaolin Quan is also obvious in comparisons between the Jiben Gong (basic training/fundamentals), of the two systems. This however becomes less evident as the boxer develops to higher levels which rely more upon trademark Tanglang skills and techniques such as the Yuhuan Bu (Jade Ring Stance), or Qilin Bu (Unicorn Step). It is traditionally taught that any proficiency in such skills is virtually unattainable without extensive training in the afore mentioned Jiben Gong.

(interesting but: Unicorn step is classic stepping pattern found in Shandong province style Di Tang (earthquake or ground) Quan from the Sung Dynasty
AND
Jade Ring stance is classic stance from Fantzi, again from Sung dynasty.

[Sal Canzonieri]

According to some masters in Qingdao, Li San Jian originally taught only 2 forms:
1. "Crushing Step" (Bengbu) also called "Crushing Step from Yantai City" (Yantai Bengbu)
2. "Obstacle" (Lanjie)

According to other sources sometimes 4 more forms are added to this list:
"Eighteen Basic Elements" (Shiba Su)
"Avoiding Hardness" (Duo/Zuo Gang)
"Efficacious Softness" (Rou Ling)
"Catching Cicada" (Buchan).

[Sal Canzonieri]

The Hong Kong branch of Qi Xing Tang Lang mentions in its tradition that Fan Xu Dong wrote five books on Shaolin boxing and tang lang quan. These hand written five volumes called the "Shaolin Authentic". One book was on herbalogy, another was about Luo Han Gong (Arhat Boxing) and the others were on the principles and concepts of northern praying mantis gong fu.

These five books were later hand copied in Hong Kong by shifu Huang Han Xun. The original illustrations and calligraphy on Luo Han Gong by Fan Xu Dong was reproduced in one of shifu Huang's books in which he added photographs to depict the movements. These books apparently were in Luo Guang Yu's possession (one of shifu Fan Xu Dong students). Jon Funk stated that there are two copies of the original book by shifu Fan Xu Dong that he is aware of, and one copy is in North America. Ho Yun Chung (shifu Huang Han Xun's student who resides in Midland, MI, USA), hand copied his own copy.

The idea of shifu Fan Xu Dong writing these books is discussed by the PRC Qi Xing Tang Lang branches mentioning that students that were senior to Luo Guang Yu were not exposed to the Luo Han Gong routine documented in these books.

They support the theory of this routine being added to Qi Xing Tang Lang Quan in later dates in Hong Kong, not by Fan Xu Dong. The total absence of the Luo Han Gong from mainland systems is a strong argument that it was not added by Fan Xu Dong or learned by him at all. We have to consider the possibility that Luo Han Gong was added to Qi Xing Tang Lang by Luo Guang Yu and not added by Fan Xu Dong.

[Sal Canzonieri]

here's notes/info I got from Ilya, who did a load of research on tang lang mantis, translating many books into english from chinese that were never published before:

It is impossible to tell exactly when Wang Lang lived but there are two main periods of Chinese history which are most commonly said to be the time when Wang Lang developed Praying Mantis Boxing: Song (960-1279) Dynasty and the end of Ming (1368-1644), beginning of Qing (1644-1911) Dynasties. However, most likely, Wang Lang lived (if he ever existed) at the beginning of the Northern Song Dynasty (969-1126) dynasties, primarily because of the existence of one source, independent from Praying Mantis Boxing traditional history. This source is two books that survived the fire when Shao Lin monastery was burned down by Chinese militarists (warlords) in 1928. The first is "Records of Shao Lin Monastery" and the second is "Records about Shao Lin Boxing". Both books contain the same data about significant events which took place in the monastery at the beginning of Song Dynasty.

It is said in the "Records of Shao Lin monastery": "...The Supreme monk of Shao Lin monastery Fu Ju invited eighteen masters of eighteen schools of martial arts to visit Shao Lin monastery in order to perform their skills and to teach Shao Lin monks for three years, to absorb the best from each master and combine this experience into manuals about Shao Lin Boxing..." In the hand written copy of the "Records about Shao Lin Boxing" it is said: "...During the Song Dynasty the abbot of the monastery was the great monk Fu Ju, his virtue was high and his reputation significant, he perceived Buddha, martial arts, medicine and literary culture, his name was known everywhere between the borders of the Heaven and the Seas. In order to improve the martial skills of the monks' brotherhood, he invited great masters of eighteen martial art schools to come to Shao Shi (Shao Shi is the place were Shao Lin monastery is located).

There were two goals: the first was to teach monks the martial arts and the second was to perform their arts, to learn from each others' strong points in order to offset each others' weaknesses..." What masters and what styles of boxing did the abbot Fu Ju invite to the monastery?

In the Praying Mantis Boxing Manual (Tanglang Quanpu) recorded the late 1700s, the unknown author provides a list of masters and styles of boxing that abbot Fu Ju invited to the monastery:

1. In the beginning there was "Long-range Boxing" (Chang Quan) style of emperor Tai Zu.

2. "Through the Back" (Tongbei) boxing of Master Han Tong's considered parental.

3. Hand technique "Rap Around and Seal" (Chan Feng) of Master Zhang En is especially profound.

4. "Close-range Strikes" (Duanda) boxing of Master Ma Ji is the most remarkable.

5. It is impossible to come close to Master Huang You who knows the "Close Range Hand Techniques" (Kao Shou).

6. The technique "Blocking Hands and Following Trough Fist" (Keshou Tongquan) of Master Jin Xiang;.

7.The hand techniques of "Hooking, Scooping and Grabbing Hands" (Gou Lou Cai Shou) of Master Liu Xing.

8.The "Methods of Sticking, Grabbing, and Falling" (Zhanna Diefa) of Master Yan Qing.

9. The "Short Boxing"(Duan Quan) of Master Wen Yuan is the most extraordinary.

10. The style "Monkey Boxing" (Hou Quan) of Master Sun Heng is also flourishing.

11.The "Cotton Fist"(Mien Quan) techniques of Master Mien Shen is lightning fast.

12. The "Throwing-Grabbing and Hard Crashing" (Shuailue Yingbeng) techniques by Master Huai De.

13.The technique of "Ducking, Leaking and Passing through the Ears" (Gunlou Guaner) of Master Tan Fang.

14. The strongest leg kicking technique is "Mandarin ducks kick " (Yuanyang Jiao) of Master Lin Chong.

15.The "Seven Postures of Continuous Fist Strikes" (Qishi Lianquan) techniques by Master Meng Su.

16. "Hand Binding and Grabbing" (Kunlu Zhenru) techniques of Master Yang Gun attack instantly.

17.The techniques of "Explosive Strikes into the Hollow Parts of the Body" (Woli Paochui) by Master Cui Lian.

18. "Praying Mantis" (Tanglang) boxing of Master Wang Lang absorbed and equalized all previous techniques.

Verifying the info from this list is the fact that One of these Shaolin monastery books provides the same list and ends it with the concluding passage, "All these were gathered and brought together by Chan (Zen) Master Fu Ju from Shaolin monastery."

[Sal Canzonieri]

The two oldest names that can be reliably proven both date back to the 1700s.

Li Bing Xiao (mid 1700s), who taught Zhao Qi Lu, who taught Lang Xue Xang, who taught a lot of people everyone knows now (Chen and Wang) that started the Mei Hua tang Lang style).

and a totally seperate line:

Jin Shi Kui (early 1700s), who taught Wei San, who taught Lin Shi Chun (who started the Six Harmony Tang Lang Style).

In case you didn't know, Jin Shi Kui, in his travels, visited Shanxi Province and taught Dai Long Beng, of XY fame, 6 harmony mantis forms (which are incorporated into Dai Fmaily XY).

No one know who taught Jin Shi Kui.

Seven Star Tang Lang is later than these two mantis styles, which was started by Li San Jian during the 1800s, 100 years later than these two Mantis styles.

[mantis108]

I am sorry that I really don't know where to begin to tackle with the supposition.

First off, if there exist a document there should be a date of which the document was made. This will state the dynastic reigning emporer's title in all its forms. Then there will be the actual incident's date. Without it, it's pretty much useless to any historic significance. So we will need to see this "surviving" documents for verification purposes.

I believe that Fu Ju is a very problematic character. Timeline wise, he is believed to be contemperary of Song Taizu and Han Tong (the Tongbei Master in the sonnet) which means it's around (960 CE). But Yan Qing and Lin Chong were supposed folk heros in the Water Margin which is based on the Xuan He incident (roughly around 1121 - 1123 CE). Fu Yu became Abbot of Shaolin around 1242 CE (I think). He also set up the Monk lineage Chart with a poem. He and possibly his peers were all going with the Fu (fortune) character designated generation much the same with the Shi character designated generation today. Before his time there is very little to go on. So I find it a bit convienant that Fu Ju exsited WAY before Fu Yu. Also how it is that an Abbot of a well known and respected temple just chose or simply "ordered" to go to Shandong (and why an "affiliated" temple of Shaolin?). That's a major demotion not to mention a disgrace IMHO!

At this point I am afraid I will have to ask the toughest questions: have you actually read the Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da? Have you read the 18 Luohan Gong Text? If you have, could you give us insights on the theorectical core? If it is really originally Shaolin as it is believed to be, then how does this knowledge in theory exist in all other "surviving" Shaolin systems, styles, and forms? Please don't tell me that Fu Ju took off with the knowledge and Shaolin temple in Henan didn't have it until it was "reintroduced" to Shaolin. How can we be sure or even argue that Shaolin never has or was exposed to this knowledge piror to the reintroduction? BTW, when would this "reintroduction" be?

I know there is a version of the manuscript existed as Shaolin Duan Da Pu which has 19 roads instead of 16. BTW, would you have a theory on the difference in number of roads? Which number is more "correct" and why?

If the monks today have no insight to the theory of formulation of the Quanpu, how could it be really "traditional"? Where is or has the traditional wisdom gone?

I am sorry, it's just incredibly "je ne sais quoi". :(

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Sal Canzonieri]

I am sorry that I really don't know where to begin to tackle with the supposition.

First off, if there exist a document there should be a date of which the document was made. This will state the dynastic reigning emporer's title in all its forms. Then there will be the actual incident's date. Without it, it's pretty much useless to any historic significance. So we will need to see this "surviving" documents for verification purposes.

I believe that Fu Ju is a very problematic character. Timeline wise, he is believed to be contemperary of Song Taizu and Han Tong (the Tongbei Master in the sonnet) which means it's around (960 CE). But Yan Qing and Lin Chong were supposed folk heros in the Water Margin which is based on the Xuan He incident (roughly around 1121 - 1123 CE). Fu Yu became Abbot of Shaolin around 1242 CE (I think). He also set up the Monk lineage Chart with a poem. He and possibly his peers were all going with the Fu (fortune) character designated generation much the same with the Shi character designated generation today. Before his time there is very little to go on. So I find it a bit convienant that Fu Ju exsited WAY before Fu Yu. Also how it is that an Abbot of a well known and respected temple just chose or simply "ordered" to go to Shandong (and why an "affiliated" temple of Shaolin?). That's a major demotion not to mention a disgrace IMHO!

At this point I am afraid I will have to ask the toughest questions: have you actually read the Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da? Have you read the 18 Luohan Gong Text? If you have, could you give us insights on the theorectical core? If it is really originally Shaolin as it is believed to be, then how does this knowledge in theory exist in all other "surviving" Shaolin systems, styles, and forms? Please don't tell me that Fu Ju took off with the knowledge and Shaolin temple in Henan didn't have it until it was "reintroduced" to Shaolin. How can we be sure or even argue that Shaolin never has or was exposed to this knowledge piror to the reintroduction? BTW, when would this "reintroduction" be?

I know there is a version of the manuscript existed as Shaolin Duan Da Pu which has 19 roads instead of 16. BTW, would you have a theory on the difference in number of roads? Which number is more "correct" and why?

If the monks today have no insight to the theory of formulation of the Quanpu, how could it be really "traditional"? Where is or has the traditional wisdom gone?

I am sorry, it's just incredibly "je ne sais quoi". :(

Warm regards

Mantis108


Agreed! I'm not staking claims here, just posting interesting notes I have.

These Sung Dynasty era documents, if they exist, must be examined, and their dates verified. Perhaps you need to communicate with Ilya Provatilov, who posted this information originally. If these documents are authentic, they are a major input to the history of martial arts and very important. It would be great if they are real, cause it would lay to rest this topic.

There is a major tome of Shaolin history, etc., coming out from a researcher, Dr. Meir Shahar. He's a professor at Tel Aviv University; he's written several articles on Shaolin history (published in Harvard J. of Asiatic Studies and Asia Major) and is finishing up a book on Shaolin. He covers a lot of records examined there, perhaps some answers will come of it?

In my opinion Fu Ju is from a little later than when Song Taizu and Han Tong were around (960 CE).
But that bit I wrote about him going to Shandong, well, nothing proven yet, more research is needed, that's what some people say, and that is because Shaolin in Henan was said to have been shut down again (by the Jin?). It periodically goes through phases of disintegration and revival all through it's history. Fu Ju met with people to preserve the martial arts, that is the history that the Jing Gong Shaolin branch carries in its lineage, and he had to go outside of Henan Shaolin to do it. There was a long absense of Shaolin news from that time to almost the Ming time. Dead quiet.
Why else would it be said that Jue Yuan had to work hard to revive Shaolin arts after this time period? When he got to Shaolin (during the Yuan dynasty), barely any martial arts were practiced. It didn't flower again til the Ming Dynasty.

The story that "Yan Qing and Lin Chong were supposed folk heros in the Water Margin which is based on the Xuan He incident (roughly around 1121 - 1123 CE)", well I doubt the novel has any accuracy for dating. If Fu Ju was Abbott in 1242, that is long after Yue Fei died (1141?).

Yan Qing is mentioned in Shaolin for being the founder of Mi Jong (Lost Track) Quan, so that puts him in Song dynasty,according to that story.
Lin Chong and Liu Xing are both said to have been students of Zhou Tong, which means their art should be Fantzi or Ba Shan Fan as it was called then, and their techingues added to the 18 masters influence shold be like Yue Fei Jia Quan and indeed:
"7.The hand techniques of "Hooking, Scooping and Grabbing Hands" (Gou Lou Cai Shou) of Master Liu Xing." is very much the main hand technique, the classic hooked mantis hand that is seen in many Yue Fei forms and in some Fantzi forms today.
and
"14. The strongest leg kicking technique is "Mandarin ducks kick " (Yuanyang Jiao) of Master Lin Chong." , which again is classic Fantzi quan item.
And
Ba Shan Fan/Fan Tzi, itself is said to be derived from Wen Family Boxing, of Shandong, who is also listed as one of the 18 masters":
"9. The "Short Boxing"(Duan Quan) of Master Wen Yuan is the most extraordinary."

No, I haven't read the actual Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da or the 18 Luohan Gong Texts, wish I had, only people's writings about them. Like I said, I am making no claims, just reporting what other's have said or written.
I don;t have a theory on the number of roads, still investigating about it.

Shaolin today has to ask local families to re-teach them Shaolin forms that have disappeared from the temple over time. Sung Tai Tzi 32 Long Fist form was one such form.
After Shaolin burned down and much of its library too, in 1928 or so, there are still working to revive themselves from this and piece together the lost information.

[libingshao]

Thank you S.C. for your detailed answers and the wealth of information you provided.

My own concern, (as if that amounts to anything). is that there is no information of any kind on there being any branch of Shaolin in Shandong. Moreover, the period of nearly 800 years of non transmission for Tanglangquan cannot be ignored.

Yet, in your theory, both the fact that there is no such information on a Shandong Shaolin nor a tradition of transmission of Tanglangquan, (in fact all known manuscripts that I have heard of say that there was no transmission), seem to deter you from saying that there was or could have been. This seems problematic from the outset. But I guess you have your reasons.

On an unrelated note:

I offer some information on some of the participants in the meeting (you have been more than generous with your research. Mine is not as extensive but may show why I have some doubt about the meeting ever taking place, regardless of it being at Henan or Shandong):

The tradition holds that the meeting of the Eighteen Champions was held at Shaolin in Henan with Fu Ju holding court over the meeting. In fact, tradition holds that Wong Long was offered a position with Tai Zhu (976-997) in his military, which he declined. (On a positive note, it is also said that such personal selection of officers by Tai Zhu was not uncommon, though I have not read of anyone refusing). So far, so good...

But, as for Lin Cheong and Yan Qing, they were supposed to be outlaws against the Song Dynasty from the early 11th century to the establishment of the Southern Song regime in 1127 about a hundred years later than the meeting at Shaolin. Perhaps they time traveled?

For further clouding of the issue we have only to look at Han Tong who defended a losing side:

"The child emperor of Later Zhou was forced to retreat. The only resistance at the court came from Han Tong 韓通 who died and was buried with great honors by Zhao Kuangyin". (who later became emperor Tai Zhu)before the meeting at Shaolin could have taken place. Perhaps he came back from the dead...?

http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Song/song-event.html

The tradition of the meeting is intriguing but the more one looks at it, the more it seems just a tradition.

You mention other reserach that is under way by others. I would greatly appreciate your sharing if you find that they have published. Though we may disagree on methods or theories please know that I have great regard for your work in gathering information. You seem to have many good sources.

Libingshao

[Sal Canzonieri]

Thank you S.C. for your detailed answers and the wealth of information you provided.

My own concern, (as if that amounts to anything). is that there is no information of any kind on there being any branch of Shaolin in Shandong. Moreover, the period of nearly 800 years of non transmission for Tanglangquan cannot be ignored.

Yet, in your theory, both the fact that there is no such information on a Shandong Shaolin nor a tradition of transmission of Tanglangquan, (in fact all known manuscripts that I have heard of say that there was no transmission), seem to deter you from saying that there was or could have been. This seems problematic from the outset. But I guess you have your reasons.

On an unrelated note:

I offer some information on some of the participants in the meeting (you have been more than generous with your research. Mine is not as extensive but may show why I have some doubt about the meeting ever taking place, regardless of it being at Henan or Shandong):

The tradition holds that the meeting of the Eighteen Champions was held at Shaolin in Henan with Fu Ju holding court over the meeting. In fact, tradition holds that Wong Long was offered a position with Tai Zhu (976-997) in his military, which he declined. (On a positive note, it is also said that such personal selection of officers by Tai Zhu was not uncommon, though I have not read of anyone refusing). So far, so good...

But, as for Lin Cheong and Yan Qing, they were supposed to be outlaws against the Song Dynasty from the early 11th century to the establishment of the Southern Song regime in 1127 about a hundred years later than the meeting at Shaolin. Perhaps they time traveled?

For further clouding of the issue we have only to look at Han Tong who defended a losing side:

"The child emperor of Later Zhou was forced to retreat. The only resistance at the court came from Han Tong 韓通 who died and was buried with great honors by Zhao Kuangyin". (who later became emperor Tai Zhu)before the meeting at Shaolin could have taken place. Perhaps he came back from the dead...?

http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Song/song-event.html

The tradition of the meeting is intriguing but the more one looks at it, the more it seems just a tradition.

You mention other reserach that is under way by others. I would greatly appreciate your sharing if you find that they have published. Though we may disagree on methods or theories please know that I have great regard for your work in gathering information. You seem to have many good sources.

Libingshao

Oh, I see ok, I think half the trouble is just typing out things as they are spewing from my head and not having the time to fully articulate, as I would instead do if we were speaking face to face.
I'm not saying I believe anything yet, just reporting what I have read or heard.

If we really look at this list of masters, the first two don't have to be there to have been an influence on N . Mantis.

Equally I have heard that Wang Lang learned Sung Tai Tzu from his father, so could be why it is said to be the base, hence being called "in the beginning there was".
Han Tong Tong Bei is "considered parental" also leaves it open that it is a root style, not necessarily that he was there face to face. I doubt Emperor Tai Tzu was there face to face either (how would he have the time!).

Also, no time frame is given, so maybe these masters came and went over a span of time, not at one meeting. I think it is really a list of Sung Dynasty masters/styles and that their ideas were incorporated by Fu Ju and others into something new.
WHICH people took to mean that there was a full on meeting and then legends arose about it.

It's not just for Mantis transmission that there is 800 years of data missing, its' also for most other styles with roots from Sung Dynasty and before (Shaolin Lohan, Chuai Jiao, Ba Fan Shan, Yueh Fei Jia Quan, Cha Quan, Hua Quan, Wah Quan, and lots more, all have this big gap from that time unaccounted for.

Between the Jin invasion during the Sung (and Sung house moving south) and the Yuan dynasty Mongols soon after, there was lots of war time and lots of moving around and lots of hiding out. Many temples were burned down, between the invaders and the big fights between Daoists and Buddhists, there was lots of turmoil.

About Lin Cheong and Yan Qing, where is it "supposed" to be that they were outlaws during that time period? If its only said in the Water Margin book, well that's a fictional novel, I don't count what that novel says really. Chinese novels are long known for recreating history to make the story better or to make political comments less overt.

Lin Chong and Liu Xing are both said to have been students of Zhou Tong, which places them during the late 1000s, early 1100s, but younger than Yue Fei.
Yueh Fei died in 1141.

What's not fitting in is the "tradition" about when Fu Ju did things.
Late 900s or 1100s? Almost a 100 years in there.

[mantis108]

Agreed! I'm not staking claims here, just posting interesting notes I have.

Thanks for the clarification. This discussion is really interesting. :)


These Sung Dynasty era documents, if they exist, must be examined, and their dates verified. Perhaps you need to communicate with Ilya Provatilov, who posted this information originally. If these documents are authentic, they are a major input to the history of martial arts and very important. It would be great if they are real, cause it would lay to rest this topic.

Well, I do communicate with Shifu Profatilov from time to time. He's quite a busy man to get a hold of. Recently he's been to Hai Yang, Shandong, the home town of Liang Xuexiang (the progenitor of Greater Meihwa Line) and Sun Yuanchang (the progenitor of my line). So more findings to look forward to from him.


There is a major tome of Shaolin history, etc., coming out from a researcher, Dr. Meir Shahar. He's a professor at Tel Aviv University; he's written several articles on Shaolin history (published in Harvard J. of Asiatic Studies and Asia Major) and is finishing up a book on Shaolin. He covers a lot of records examined there, perhaps some answers will come of it?

This would be great news. Thanks for the heads up. I look forward to it's release.


In my opinion Fu Ju is from a little later than when Song Taizu and Han Tong were around (960 CE).
But that bit I wrote about him going to Shandong, well, nothing proven yet, more research is needed, that's what some people say, and that is because Shaolin in Henan was said to have been shut down again (by the Jin?). It periodically goes through phases of disintegration and revival all through it's history. Fu Ju met with people to preserve the martial arts, that is the history that the Jing Gong Shaolin branch carries in its lineage, and he had to go outside of Henan Shaolin to do it. There was a long absense of Shaolin news from that time to almost the Ming time. Dead quiet.

I think Li Bingxiao (the forum member here) gave a great link on the history part concerning Taizu and Han Tong.

Now, if the temple was shut down and (therefore forcing) Fu Ju left to Shandong, why would Fu Ju's only achievement as an Abbot is preserving MA? I mean isn't he a Buddhism monk first and foremost? Shouldn't his responsibility and priority be Buddist study rather that MA? Shouldn't he be worrying more about re establish the status of Shaolin in Henan rather than thinking about a tournament of sort? It's the same arguement many used to disprove Bodhidharma's practicing and teaching MA.


Why else would it be said that Jue Yuan had to work hard to revive Shaolin arts after this time period? When he got to Shaolin (during the Yuan dynasty), barely any martial arts were practiced. It didn't flower again til the Ming Dynasty.

Well, there's one explanation of mine that Shaolin enjoys a lot of favors from the Tong Dynasty court. It is allowed to have it's own troops. This does not have major conflict with the imperial court policy then since feudal lords were allowed to have troops. But that's the root of the problem of the imperial court. It is said that Song dynasty changed that policy for obvious reasons. All troops belongs to the central government. I don't think Shaolin would be any exception especially Song imperial court was mainly Doaist friendly. So it would be logical that MA activities become less since the troops were gone. However, Ming Dynasty's military structure was very much different. There would be local troops but it would be under the straight control of the imperial court (ie civil officiers and eunuch agents). Ming Dynasty, shaolin troops were deployed to fight the Japanese pirates as well.


The story that "Yan Qing and Lin Chong were supposed folk heros in the Water Margin which is based on the Xuan He incident (roughly around 1121 - 1123 CE)", well I doubt the novel has any accuracy for dating. If Fu Ju was Abbott in 1242, that is long after Yue Fei died (1141?).

I believe it has to be cleared that Fu Ju and Fu Yu are not the same person at all. Fu Ju is possibly ficticous. Fu Yu was a real person.


Yan Qing is mentioned in Shaolin for being the founder of Mi Jong (Lost Track) Quan, so that puts him in Song dynasty,according to that story.

The Yan (swallow) Qing in "water Margin" is another interesting charater. There is one version of the manuscript that has a Yan (color/face) Qing although they are both seemed to be the same at least in what they have to offer (Nian Na Die Fa which bascially is Chin Na skill). BTW, most version today used Yan (swallow) Qing as in the novel. So... My friend, who took Fanzi showed me a form called Qi Bu Quan (seven steps fist) otherwise know as Yan Qing Fan, does have some interesting elements similar to Mantis but it is not too Chin Na oriented.


Lin Chong and Liu Xing are both said to have been students of Zhou Tong, which means their art should be Fantzi or Ba Shan Fan as it was called then, and their techingues added to the 18 masters influence shold be like Yue Fei Jia Quan

Umm... this is new to me. So...


and indeed:
"7.The hand techniques of "Hooking, Scooping and Grabbing Hands" (Gou Lou Cai Shou) of Master Liu Xing." is very much the main hand technique, the classic hooked mantis hand that is seen in many Yue Fei forms and in some Fantzi forms today.

Again according to my friend, Fanzi doesn't actually spent time on grappling. It does not even try to block. It is a strike oriented, dynamic and explosive in nature.


and
"14. The strongest leg kicking technique is "Mandarin ducks kick " (Yuanyang Jiao) of Master Lin Chong." , which again is classic Fantzi quan item.
And
Ba Shan Fan/Fan Tzi, itself is said to be derived from Wen Family Boxing, of Shandong, who is also listed as one of the 18 masters":
"9. The "Short Boxing"(Duan Quan) of Master Wen Yuan is the most extraordinary."

I am not sure about this. So no comment.


No, I haven't read the actual Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da or the 18 Luohan Gong Texts, wish I had, only people's writings about them. Like I said, I am making no claims, just reporting what other's have said or written.
I don;t have a theory on the number of roads, still investigating about it.

Thank you for clarification. I appreciate that. :)


Shaolin today has to ask local families to re-teach them Shaolin forms that have disappeared from the temple over time. Sung Tai Tzi 32 Long Fist form was one such form.
After Shaolin burned down and much of its library too, in 1928 or so, there are still working to revive themselves from this and piece together the lost information.

Thanks for the info. This will not be an easy task and I hope this time they will keep better records of who teach what to whom. Otherwise in another hundred year, we will have not problem for the future generations to investigate.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[libingshao]

About Lin Cheong and Yan Qing, where is it "supposed" to be that they were outlaws during that time period? If its only said in the Water Margin book, well that's a fictional novel, I don't count what that novel says really. Chinese novels are long known for recreating history to make the story better or to make political comments less overt.

Mr. Canzonieri,

The name Mizong, I have been told, came about because his style originally had the name Yan Qing Quan but his followers wanted to throw his government pursuers off the track so to speak so they called it "lost track". Hence, though I also do not hold to accounting historical weight to the novel, I found this interesting and collaborating information. A great question as it has reminded me to share this also.

mantis108 thank you, I try to share what I find of value.

Libingshao

[Sal Canzonieri]

I found some info on Fu Yu, etc that contradicts the legend stuff and verifies something I guessed at (meeting of masters was not one sole event).

Martial arts scholar from Germany Uwe Schwenk has been working with documents from Shaolin that were made public in 2003.

In one of the documents translated it says:

During the reign of Emperor Li Yan (also known as Wu Zong), from 841 to 847, he decried the abolition of Buddhism and Shaolin was closed and put into disrepair. 4600 big temples and 40,000 small temples were destroyed. Monks were scattered and Shaolin martial arts were spread to nearby areas.

30 years after the ending of the abolition of Buddhism, the head of the temple, monk Fa Hua collected funds to repair Shaolin, which took 3 years. Many monks returned.

With the start of the Song dynasty, there was a revival of Buddhism and also martial arts. 1st Emperor Zhao Kwang Yin created some martial arts forms such as 36 Sectioned long fist boxing and 6 step monkey boxing. He once kept his martial arts books at Shaolin.

At the BEGINNING of the Song Dynasty, Monk FU YU became Abbott. He created the 70 character poem, represening the generations of monks at Shaolin, his line contiues there to today (currently at 38th generation).

FU YU invited best martial artists to come and share their knowledge. Three times, for a period of three years EACH TIME (which equals NINE years) knowledge was shared. The forms and techniques were recorded by the Shaolin Monks into a library that was kept in Shaolin.

During the next war, the temple was badly damaged. It was repaired during the third Buddhism revival, during Yuan dynasty Emperor Shi Zu (1260 - 1295, by Monk Yu Gong, one of the most well known Monks of the time.

--------------------------------------------

In the section on Yuan Dynasty, it says that Jue Yuan traveled through China in search of great martial art skills, after meeting Li Sou and his son, and Bai Yu Feng, they worked for 10 years on perfecting Shaolin Martial Arts.

It says that Bai Yu Feng developed the "18 Exercises of Lohan" form, from 18 moves to 72 moves to 173 moves. He collected fragments of neglected patterns and perfected them in the forms. The Lohan style would later see over 170 varient forms. He also created the Five Imitation Boxing forms.
Li Sou was skilled at the Xiao and Dan Hong boxing forms.
At the end of this dynasty, a fire raged through Shaolin and again many buildings were badly damaged.
Restoration was done during the Ming and many new building were made.

[mantis108]

Here's a Chinese timeline of Shaolin since the Northern Wei to the Republic era. I got this from a Chinese forum. Fu Yu was a person that CLEARLY around 1242 and onward. That is late Southern Song and Early Yuan. There is no entry during Song dynasty. The only explanation for that is that Song imperial court was not exactly Buddhist friendly. They were VERY into Daoism just like the Tang dynasty and perhpas even more. There seems to be evidence that the Jin were also Buddhist friendly. There is no mentioning of Jue Yuan and the 18 Luohan exercises.

<<<

北魏
太和十九年（495年） 北魏孝文帝遷都洛陽。
太和二十年（496年） 孝文帝為安置北天竺僧高僧跋陀赦建少林寺，公給衣供。跋
陀于寺西台建舍利塔，塔后建譯經堂。
熙平二年（517年） 洛陽永宁寺建成，十七年后毀于火。其間南天竺僧菩提達摩曾
見此寺，后入少林寺后五乳峰山洞坐禪。
正光初（520年） 跋陀弟子僧稠任少林寺主。
東魏
天平初（534-536年） 菩提達摩行化于洛河地區，圓寂后立塔于熊耳山空相寺。
北齊
乾明元年（560年） 僧稠圓寂，有《止觀法》行世。
北周
承光元年（577年） 周武帝下詔毀佛法，少林寺被廢。
大象二年（580年） 周靜帝下詔重興佛道二教。少林寺复立，更名陟岵寺。
隋
開皇元年（580年） 恢复少林寺名。
開皇中（581-600年） 隋文帝詔賜少林寺柏谷塢地一百頃。
大業十四年（618年） 天下大亂。少林寺被山賊所劫，僧徒拒之。塔院被焚，靈塔
尚存。
唐
武德四年（621年） 四月廿七日，少林寺上座善護等十三僧，聯合偽轘州司馬趙孝
宰等翻轘州城，執王世充侄王仁則歸唐有功。三日后，秦王李世民派員至寺頒賞。

武德五年（622年） 少林寺因居偽鄭之地，被廢省。
武德七年（624年） 寺僧不服減省上訴。七月，敕少林寺依舊置立。
武德八年（625年） 二月，重賜少林寺柏谷塢地四十頃，水碾一具。
咸亨中（670-674年） 高宗巡幸少林寺，御題《金字般若碑》，留幡像及施物。
弘道元年（683年） 禪宗大師法如入少林寺。九月廿五日，武則天遣武三思送金、
絹等物至少林寺，立《大唐天后御制愿文》，為亡母楊氏造功德。
嗣圣元年（684年） 高宗薨，武則天至少林寺為高宗造功德。
永昌元年（689年） 法如圓寂，立塔寺東。
開元十一年（723年） 十一月，玄宗御書碑額七字及“太宗教書”，遣一行送賜少
林寺。
開元十六年（728年） 七月十五日，少林寺立裴漼撰《皇唐嵩岳少林寺碑》。
金
金初 住持祖端立《妙色那羅延金剛神像碑》。
興定四年（1220年） 住持志隆創設“藥局”。
蒙元
稱制元年（1242年） 曹洞宗宗師万松派遣大弟子福裕住持少林寺。
稱制四年（1245年） 福裕受忽必烈之命，在少林寺作資戒大會。
定宗三年（1218年） 福裕為都僧省總統，收回佛寺237處。
憲宗八年（1258年） 忽必烈在哈喇和林主持舉行佛、道大辯論。福裕為首僧代表佛
教界參与辯論，道士敗。
中統元年（1260年） 福裕榮膺“光宗正法大禪師”，任大都大万壽寺住持，計十四
年。其間分建和林、燕薊、長安、太原、洛陽五少林。
至元十二年（1275年） 福裕圓寂，刊有《雪庭和尚語錄》行世。
皇慶元年（1312年） 謚福裕為晉國公。
泰定四年（1327年） 日本國山陰道但州正法禪寺僧邵元入華，兩年后至少林寺，住
二十一年，任書記、首座等職。
至正十一年（1361年） 三月二十六日，潁州紅巾軍至少林寺，緊那羅僧以神异阻之。

至正二十一年（1361年） 天下動亂，少林寺僧僅存二十多人。
明
洪武二年（1369年） 子嚴始住持少林，前后計十三年。
洪武二十五年（1392年） 來复撰《淳拙禪師道行之碑》，日本國沙門德始書丹。
弘治十四年（1501年） 西天梵僧受古梅住持之請，任少林寺勸緣僧。
正德五年（1510年） 文載住持少林寺，奉行《禪苑清規》，計十二年。
正德七年（1512年） 霸州農民劉氏起事，少林寺武僧奉命征伐。此年，建立雪亭。

嘉靖元年（1522年） 十一月，山東清州礦丁王堂起事，少林寺武僧奉命征伐。次年
乃敗。
嘉靖二十七年（1548年） 為武僧三奇周友立塔，敕名“天下對手，教會武僧”。
嘉靖三十一至三十三年（1552-1554年） 少林寺武僧三十多人奉命赴沿海抗擊倭寇，
英勇壯烈。
嘉靖三十二年（1553年） 柘城鹽徒師尚詔起義，少林寺武僧竺方周參等奉命征討，
十月，師尚詔伏誅。
嘉靖三十四年（1555年） 徽王府為少林寺修建牌坊，徽王朱載_書丹。次年，朱載
_因罪自殺，徽府除國。
嘉靖三十七年（1558年） 小山住持少林寺，計八年。
嘉靖四十年（1561年） 抗倭名將俞大猷至少林寺觀武，認為“真訣皆失”，選寺僧
宗擎、普從隨其學習棍法。
嘉靖四十二年（1563年） 西天梵僧弟子扁囤和尚圓寂。
嘉靖四十四年（1565年） 鄭王之子朱載堉立《混元三教九流圖》于少林寺。
隆慶間（1567-1572年） 程宗猷入少林寺習武，近十年。晚年刊《少林棍法闡宗》
等行世。
万歷二年（1574年） 常潤主持少林寺。
万歷五年（1625年） 河南巡撫程紹在少林寺觀武，作《少林觀武》詩。
万歷十六年（1588年） 創建千佛殿，貯神宗母李太后所頒續刻藏經。
万歷三十七年（1609年） 無言主持少林，計十七年。袁宏道游少林，觀武。
万歷四十一年（1613年） 杭州人陳元贇入少林寺習武。1683年東渡日本，傳少林拳
棍于日本。
万歷四十七年（1619年） 為都提舉、征戰有功万安同順、授教師本樂宗武立塔。
崇禎十一年（1638年） 登封農民李際遇起義。
崇禎十四年（1641年） 冬，李自成軍入豫，李際遇与之合軍，攻克登封縣城。
清
順治十三年（1656年） 海寬入京師，刊《五家宗派世譜定祖圖》。次年領禮部劄子，
為清代第一位住持。
康熙四十三年（1704年） 圣祖御書“寶樹芳蓮”及“少林寺”匾額，賜少林寺。
雍正十三年（1735年） 世宗御批重修少林寺，整頓少林寺門頭。乾隆初年，由河東
總督、河南巡撫王士俊主持重修少林寺，費銀九千兩。
乾隆五年（1740年） 河南巡撫雅爾圖上奏“少林寺僧徒，向以教習拳棒為名。”
乾隆十二年（1747年） 施奕簪、焦如衡編定《少林寺志》四卷，五万余字，次年刊
梓。
乾隆十五年（1750年） 九月三十日，高宗巡幸少林寺，題詩書匾，夜宿少林寺方丈
室。
道光八年（1828年） 河南道員麟慶代巡撫楊海梁祭祀嵩山時，至少林寺觀看武僧校
拳。
道光三十年（1850年） 鴉片戰爭結束，政府軍隊普遍配備火器，武術普遍民間化。
上層社會武術功能轉向健身。
咸丰四年（1854年） 王祖源入少林寺習《易筋經》，晚年刊《內功圖說》行世。
同治元年（1862年） 捻軍西征，三月至九月兩次過登封縣境。是年蝗災。
中華民國
民國初年（1911-1920年） 世局動亂，土匪蜂起，少林寺購置火器成立保衛團，當
家和尚恒林任團長。
民國四年（1915年） 民國政府教育部通令武術進入西方模式新式學校課程。
民國五年（1916年） 王云華修葺緊那羅神殿。
民國十二年（1923年） 恒林圓寂，弟子妙興繼任。吳佩孚部收編少林寺保衛團為第
一團，妙興任團長。
民國十六年（1927年） 妙興率團赴舞陽，与任應岐部交戰陣亡，保衛團武僧四散。

民國十七年（1928年） 三月十五日，國民軍石友三火燒少林寺。天王殿、大雄殿、
客堂、鐘鼓樓、藏經樓及所藏之大藏經、《少林寺志》木版、北朝石刻造像碑等皆
毀。
民國十七年（1928年） 民國政府成立中央國術館，省、市、縣通設國術館（社）。
大批民間拳師進城任教。以“增進全民健康為宗旨”。“仿舊時武科考試和近代体
育競賽，”舉行全國國術考試。武術走向競賽標准化。
民國二十年（1930年） 唐豪出版《少林武術考》。
民國二十五年（1936年） 日本武士宗道臣至少林寺學藝。回日本后，創立日本少林
寺拳法聯盟

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Sal Canzonieri]

So, in talking to others associated with Shaolin and in reading Monk Di Qian's history stuff (in Shaolin Encyclopedia) they say the Fu Yu was from 961 ad.

They say that Fu Yu is the one that brought together the various masters, over a course of 3 years.

So, what is going on, if other sources say Fu Yu is from 1242?

Can it be two different people, is one really Fu JU?

Any clues?

[Sal Canzonieri]

From Shaolin Encyclopedia, by Monk Di Qian, here's what it lists:

Part 4 the famous fighting monks in each generation

Chapter 1 the famous fighting monk in North Wei Dynasty.................118
1 Seng Chou 2 Hui Guang 3 Wu Ren 4 Zhi Gang 5 Pu Xue 6 Hong Zun
Chapter 2 the fighting monks in Sui Tang dynasty..127
7 Zhi Cao 8 Yun Zong 9 Shan Hu 10 Hu Yang 11 Pu Hui 12 Ming Song
13 Ling Ying 14 Pu Sheng 15 Dao Guang 16 Zhi Sheng 17 Zhi Xing 18 Feng
19 Man 20 Zi Huan 21 Zi Sheng 22 Kong Kong 23 Ling Yin 24 Wei Kuan
25 Yuan Jing 26 Fu Hu
Chapter 3 the fighting monks in Song Jin dynasty...151
27 Ling Qiu 28 Zhi Rui 29 Fu Ju 30 Zhi Sheng 31 Hui Wei 32 Hui Lin
33Hai Zhou 34 Hong Wen 35 Jue Ze 36 Jue Yuan 37 Qiu Yue 38 Cheng Hui
39 Zong Yin
Chapter 4 the fighting monks in Yuan dynasty.........158
40 Zong Shu 41 Fu Xing 42 Fu Zhen 43 Hui Ju 44 Hui Ding 45 Hui Jing
46 Hui Ming 47 Hui Yan 48 Hui Yuan 49 Zhi An 50 Zhi Ju 51 Pu Ming
52 Zi An 53 Zi Zhan 54 Da Zhi 55 Zhi Tai 56 Shao Yuan 57 Jin Na Luo
58 Jue Xun 59 Liao Gai 60 Jue Kui 61 Jue Ru 62 Jue li 63 Jue Xian
64 Jue Jing

[Sal Canzonieri]

Care to revive this thread?

I've since been able to read a copy of Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu book,
and not related to that I've been tracing Shaolin moves and postures as far back as I could.

The earliest martial movements from Shaolin seem to come from a series of soft and hard Qi Gong, that are composed of 108 movements.

This collection of loose techniques can be traced back to the Tang Dynasty at least, they were introduced from India (via Indian martial monks and Indian Body guards bringing scripture to and from india/shaolin) and mixed these with Chinese origin movements from Shaui Jiao and Tong Bei.

There is not one move in the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan that is not found in this 108 move Qi Gong form.

This 108 Qi Gong can be done in martial art self defense mode as well.
It contains within it the movements from the classic Dragon/Tiger Qi Gong that Shaolin was known for later in time, also it contains many Monkey stepping and techniques, postures, etc later seen in Tai Tzu quan (north and south versions).

Because Tai Tzu Quan resembles this Soft hard Qi Gong so much, this Qi Gong is very much like Chen Tai Ji Quan as well.

I would say that ALL truly Shaolin created martial arts originate from this Qi Gong (which has classic movements from Tong Bei and Shuai Jiao in it). And any style or form that is NOT obviously related to it comes from an outside tradition that was later incorporated into Shaolin, but is not ORIGINALLY from Shaolin.

Such as Tang Lang.

Anyways, I am under the impression, currently, that the "Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu" is different Qi Gong method from this early Shaolin stuff. Although I see in this "Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu" that some of the postures in the 18 Luohon Gung are the same as those in many old Luohan forms that come from Shaolin originally (postures such as "Open the Window" for example).

What Tang Lang and this early Shaolin have in common though is Hong Dong Tong Bei (which is called Chang Quan there, long fist). Hong Dong Tong Bei is very similar to both Tang Lang and to the movements in the ancient soft hard qi gong.

Look at this video of Hong Dong Tong Bei practioners doing their forms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWjMF1Et_0Y&mode=related&search=
Especially look at the third person, you can really see this style as a root style to tang lang.
At the same time, this Hong Dong Tong Bei is obviously a Long Fist style, not exactly like the other Tong Bei (Chi, Shi, White Ape, etc styles). But it is more like the movements and postures of Shaolin quan and this soft hard qi gong that it is like anything else.

Also, the basic Hooking (Gou), Pulling (Lou), Plucking (Cai) and Hanging (Gua) methods that are common for all Praying Mantis branches is found in the middle of this 108 soft hard qi gong.

[Redfish]

It is an interesting thread to revive. So here's a point of interest for me Sal.

In a previous post you talk about the earliest figures and mention Liang Xuexiang. You then say that Seven Star Mantis started with Li San Jian.

What evidence or clues do we have that the style 'started' with Li San Jian? I mean, as opposed to Li San Jian just being the earliest 'known' person in the Seven Star Family stories and lineage?

[Sal Canzonieri]

It is an interesting thread to revive. So here's a point of interest for me Sal.

In a previous post you talk about the earliest figures and mention Liang Xuexiang. You then say that Seven Star Mantis started with Li San Jian.

What evidence or clues do we have that the style 'started' with Li San Jian? I mean, as opposed to Li San Jian just being the earliest 'known' person in the Seven Star Family stories and lineage?

You are correct, by started, I meant merely, earliest known person, clarification.

But, who started calling it "7 Stars" first? The 7 stars is the big dipper, it represents the classic mantis posture with the front leg being out with heel down and toes up, making a "check mark" shape with the leg.

The earliest known occurance of this posture in Shaolin is again found in this soft hard qigong.

Is this posture found in the earliest known styles (song dynasty) from Shandong province? The Ditang style (non ground forms, it has lower and upper levels) of shandong is where many shandong styles are derived from. I dont think it is there. Many postures from tang lang are seen in this old Ditang style.

BUT:
It is found in Fanzi quan, which is one ancient style done in Shandong area.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The name of the book ""Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu" intrigues me.

The Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da is this style, from late Song / early Yuan dynasty era, created by Fu Yu, and it was practiced in Shandong are too (how did it get there?), in the Henan region it is nearly extinct now, it is only done in a small area of southern Henan:

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd2/coll_shaolin12.htm
http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin14.html

On that second page, please note:
"3rd routine also named as "Hook Hand" or "Praying Mantis Posture". Its hand movements imitated movements of praying mantis. An important routine in Xing Gong Fist. Only a few people in southern part of Shangdong province knew this form."

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Also something to note, after the 1735 burning of Shaolin, monk Guangming went to Shandong and taught there. What he taught is now called Fo Han Quan: Buddhist Boxing. An influence on Shandong martial arts?

Also: Sun Haiming, Tang Lang Boxing expert from Shandong, taught Seven Star and Plum Blossom styles in Anhui Province; these styles were later combined with local Shaolin Boxing style into a system of Shaolin Tang Lang Boxing.
Note: "Local Shaolin Boxing" of Anhui.

[Sal Canzonieri]

This site is one of a few that gives the story of Wang Lang fighting General Han Tong ( of tong bei fame and one of the 18 masters that Tang Lang is based on). And that Emperor Tai Tzu (Zhao Kwangyin) admired Wang Lang's martial arts and ask he to be general

http://www.cc-am.com/ingles-Tanglang.htm

Okay, well, we know WHEN Gen Han Tong died, he was killed by Zhao when he tried to take over the empire (and suceeded).

So, unless Wang Lang fought Gen Han Tong when he was young, the Gen Han Tong was already dead by the Song Dynasty start.

So now what?

[Redfish]

I noticed that on the statue of Wang Lang in Laoshan it says that Wang Lang is also called Yu Qi.

It's not mentioned in any pre-war books or articles on the subject. It suggests that modern Shandong clubs have found some new evidence or information on this. It even implies that someone there has identified Wang Lang.

Could anyone with links to the Shandong scene elaborate on this?

[mantis108]

Care to revive this thread?

I've since been able to read a copy of Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu book,
and not related to that I've been tracing Shaolin moves and postures as far back as I could.

I understand there is a version of this book available online recently. I have yet to obtain one but I have read some other versions and they are more or less the same thing with different parts edited in different orders or certain names, terms changed here and there. So... my take is that don't bank on any of them being the most truthful edition. We can only approach or use the book (any version) with utmost caution.


The earliest martial movements from Shaolin seem to come from a series of soft and hard Qi Gong, that are composed of 108 movements.

I am curious as to which soft and hard Qigong series that you are referring to? You would not be talking about the 5 animals forms of Bai Yufeng or renditions of that?


This collection of loose techniques can be traced back to the Tang Dynasty at least, they were introduced from India (via Indian martial monks and Indian Body guards bringing scripture to and from india/shaolin) and mixed these with Chinese origin movements from Shaui Jiao and Tong Bei.

Is there solid documentation or is this one of your hypothesisi? It's perfectly okay to hypothesize, theorize and all but eventually you will need to prove it. So...


There is not one move in the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan that is not found in this 108 move Qi Gong form.

well, not one move in any of the collegiean wrestling or one move in Judo is not found in Shuai Jiao does that mean that Shuai Jiao is grand daddy of everything? Huam and Champs are nearly 97&#37; the same in genes, does that mean we are the same spieces or did we share the same ancestors? We simply can't jump to conclusion, period.


This 108 Qi Gong can be done in martial art self defense mode as well.
It contains within it the movements from the classic Dragon/Tiger Qi Gong that Shaolin was known for later in time, also it contains many Monkey stepping and techniques, postures, etc later seen in Tai Tzu quan (north and south versions).'

Well, this 108 Qigong is the mother of all JKD form/system then right? It's got everything and it explains everything, how nice?!


Because Tai Tzu Quan resembles this Soft hard Qi Gong so much, this Qi Gong is very much like Chen Tai Ji Quan as well.

You do realize that there are tons of Taizuquan and each may or may not look like each other but they are all saying they are the only real deal right?


I would say that ALL truly Shaolin created martial arts originate from this Qi Gong (which has classic movements from Tong Bei and Shuai Jiao in it). And any style or form that is NOT obviously related to it comes from an outside tradition that was later incorporated into Shaolin, but is not ORIGINALLY from Shaolin.

So you are suggesting that Tong Bei and Shuai Jiao -> this 108 Qigong form (which is brought from india) - > all true shaolin martial systems. So Tong Bei and Shuai Jiao is the root of all Shaolin fighting systems? In that case, there really is not Shaolin Kung Fu in the beginning then?


Such as Tang Lang.

:confused: :eek: How did you come to this conclusion?


Anyways, I am under the impression, currently, that the "Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu" is different Qi Gong method from this early Shaolin stuff. Although I see in this "Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu" that some of the postures in the 18 Luohon Gung are the same as those in many old Luohan forms that come from Shaolin originally (postures such as "Open the Window" for example).

You do realize that there is the Daoist immortal Chen Tuan mentioned in one of the moves? Other "water margin" characters also get mentioned in the text as well. Open the window is so generic that it's .... oh well...


What Tang Lang and this early Shaolin have in common though is Hong Dong Tong Bei (which is called Chang Quan there, long fist). Hong Dong Tong Bei is very similar to both Tang Lang and to the movements in the ancient soft hard qi gong.

Really? Are you sure that Tanglang has little to with other stuff such as Fanziquan ( a southern method). Do you know that Tanglang's Pai Da (body impact training) is more akin to concept of Xingyi and the dynamics of Fujian Baihe or its derivitives' (Okinawan te) San Zhan impact training? Are you aware that the training structure of most Shandong Tanglang if not all is pretty much identical to Fanziquan, Xingyiquan, Fujian Baihe, and Okinawan based Karate? Do you recognize that the Tanglang styles that have heavy Tongbei and Shuai Jiao influences are mostly found in the Beijing area but not in Shandong? Am I claiming that Tanglang came from Fanziquan? No, I am just saying that there is a remarkably close resemblance that we can't afford to ignor a possible connection. Whether it is true or how much it is true, we have just to work on it more to find out.


Look at this video of Hong Dong Tong Bei practioners doing their forms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWjMF1Et_0Y&mode=related&search=
Especially look at the third person, you can really see this style as a root style to tang lang.
At the same time, this Hong Dong Tong Bei is obviously a Long Fist style, not exactly like the other Tong Bei (Chi, Shi, White Ape, etc styles). But it is more like the movements and postures of Shaolin quan and this soft hard qi gong that it is like anything else.

Also, the basic Hooking (Gou), Pulling (Lou), Plucking (Cai) and Hanging (Gua) methods that are common for all Praying Mantis branches is found in the middle of this 108 soft hard qi gong.

No offense, if I look hard enough I will see Bodhidharma's face with the tea leaves at the bottom of my cup, after all it is he, who cut off his eyelids which became the tea tree that we make teas out of today, is that a prove of Bodhidarma's existence? Please Sal, I understand you are working out stuff but please be a little bit more scientific and thorough than what you are proposing. No trying to rain on your parade, Just some thoughts...

Regards

Mantis108

[Sal Canzonieri]

YEAHAH!

Well, forgive me, but I made a load of outlandish statements just to get you guys to come back and get involved in the original discussion. No one was responding to my original request to revive the thread.

Thanks!
Even your responses to my made up stuff really give a lot of great information to discuss.

This is the only we all have in common that we can discuss CMA origins.

If I am forgiven, can we discuss details of the original topic?

Thanks!

Serious things I would like to discuss:

DO you think it is possible that there is more than one Wang Lang, one from Sung and one who took the name as a cover in the Qing era (such as Yu Qi the swordsman)?

Or do you think that it is possible, depending on how the Chinese is interpreted, since so many names of the 18 masters are Song dynasty related, that Abbott FuJu brought them together, but Wang Lang is mentioned as absorbing the best ideas from these Song period people, but that he did it during the Qing Dynasty, and that the texts are not necessarily saying that he was also from the Song era?

-------------------------

Another topic - just for theoretical discussion, detailed facts we'll introduce later.

Shaolin died out and whatever martial arts they were doing many times in history, that we know. After 1928, they really lost everything and in 1980s, they had to get people from lineages that had left the temple back in history from all over Henan and other provinces, that still did their forms to come there and re-introduce forms/ etc back to the place. And most of these seem to be stuff created during the Qing Dynasty. Except for a dozen forms, most the the 365 known Shaolin forms are documented (on paper or verbally) to be from real people who created the forms in Qing dynasty times.

The only ancient stuff from Shaolin that looks to me at least is being originally from there is the Xin Yi Ba, which is "nothing but" a 144 move exercise series that mimics the movements from working a farm, mostly using the hoe; and local farm and wild animals.
And, further back there is the soft hard qi gongs they did that originally are from India, via Indian Body Guards that accompanied Indian monks, and these they mixed with Tong Bei and Shuai Jiao types of movements to later create self defense movements from the qi gong. Shaolin associated styles from the Song Dynasty seem to have absorbed this Shaolin soft hard qigong ideas and body mechanics. (for example much Tai Tzu is so much like it).

You can't look at Shaolin done there now to investigate anything to do with origins,
you have to look at the "Shaolin" Quan that has dispersed all over China over the dynasties to see what might be going on.
If one does look at as many of these dispersed Shaolin Quans as one can, (Northern long fist only), they do all seem to share attributes found in the old hard soft qi gong such as stepping pattern, hand qestures (that match Indian hand Mutras), ways of opening and closing the joints, breathing methods, theory and strategy, movements that yield/evade, absorb, redirect, and then neutralize an attack, body mechanics, etc.

None of these are anything like Shandong Tang Lang. I really don't think that this ancient Shaolin (stuff based on Hard Soft Qigong) had anything to really do with the development of Tang Lang. Tang Lang seems to come from other sources, maybe these sources were initiated by Abbott FuJu, but they aren't based on what Shaolin was doing previously.

The legend of Jue Yaun and Bai Yu Feng merely says that Jue had to go to Luoyang to re-discover internal methods that were by then lost at Shaolin.

I think that the Yuan dynasty caused Shaolin to lose everything the accumulated and it spread out from then.

I don't see how in any way that Shaolin developed Tang Lang there, it is way too foreign to what most Shaolin stuff is like (if you make the soft hard qi gong methods, etc as the standard for "real" Shaolin).

[Redfish]

Sal

It's hard to understand what you're getting at in your posts. But you did just clearly say that Tang Lang seems foriegn from Shaolin Kung Fu.

For me, 7* Tang Lang has all the characteristics of Shaolin Kung Fu inside. The stances and stepping, the hard training methods, the Qigong aspect. if you look at any traditional Hung Gar or Choi Lei Fut or Eagle Claw you can see the same stuff at the core.

You make this point about Shaolin Kung Fu being in the styles but you also make comparisons to the (highly questionable) book too. I dunno what to make of that.

For sure, the modern Shandong scene movements now seem foriegn to it. But that's them and no-one else and only after WW2.

You mentioned Yu Qi again. So what's the story there? Where does that come from?

[mantis108]

Hi Sal,

I totally understand where you are coming from. So no worries, I am just messing with you as you were messing with us. ;)


The name of the book ""Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu" intrigues me.

The book in and of itself is not a bad book in the sense that it does contain a lot of good information. The only problem is that it has lots and lots of artistic licensing and great disregard of actual historic facts. The person, Sheng Xiao Dao Ren, was highly likely a native of Shandong and he reportedly was teaching in the capital city of Manchurian territory back in the mid 1700s. Some have suggested that Dao Ren in Shandong dialect is more like a scholar or respected knowledgeable person not necessarily meant that he had any affiliation with Daoism or Buddhism. Given the content and the quotes that are used in the book, Sheng Xiao Dao Ren could have been a student of martial schools that prepared students for national martial exams during that time. He could have been given or assigned teaching job at one of those schools in the territory as it is custom that those who are more mature and didn't advanced into military office would be assigned teaching jobs and later he retired back to Shandong area. It is possible that he'd love to read and listened to pop culture martial arts fictions and had a vivid imagination (no wonder he failed his exams). This profile would fit the Dao Ren designation and the characteristics of the book IMHO.


The Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da is this style, from late Song / early Yuan dynasty era, created by Fu Yu, and it was practiced in Shandong are too (how did it get there?), in the Henan region it is nearly extinct now, it is only done in a small area of southern Henan:

The reason that it's not in Henan is because it's never been there in the first place! The book is a product of indigenious Shandong civil culture and martial arts. It has nothing to do with Henan Shaolin.

BTW, Yu Qi was kind of a folk hero of Shandong during the late Ming early Qing time. There are records and folklores of his exploits but no one can be certain of his final days after a failed insurgent. He is not Wang Lang per se. Is it possible that some people model the mythical Wang Lang after Yu Qi? Well, it's entirely possible. But to say that he was the real Wang Lang then it is bending the facts quite a bit.

[Sal Canzonieri]

okay, so say for argument's sake, we ignore this Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu" book for now.

And, we go back to the research that Illya P. has done, which he says:

"However, most likely, Wang Lang lived (if he ever existed) at the beginning of the Northern Song Dynasty (969-1126) dynasties, primarily because of the existence of one source, independent from Praying Mantis Boxing traditional history. This source is two books that survived the fire when Shao Lin monastery was burned down by Chinese militarists (warlords) in 1928. The first is "Records of Shao Lin Monastery" and the second is "Records about Shao Lin Boxing". Both books contain the same data about significant events which took place in the monastery at the beginning of Song Dynasty."


But first:

Both Tang Lang and the Shaolin Xing Gong (aka: Xin Gang) style have almost the same origin story:

Shaolin Xing Gong style - "legendary" Martial Monk Abbott Fu Ju (may or maybe not the Religious Monk Abbott Fu Yu who lived from 1203-1275, Yuan Dynasty/Southern Song Dynasty era) invites various masters for a period of Nine (3 sets of 3 years each) years (THE symbolic Buddhist number 9 of course), after that a new series of martial arts "forms" are developed. Why? Cause Shaolin KF was quite dead by his time period. When did this happen? Sometime during one of the Song Dynasties.

All Shaolin records that I have seen preserved by Shi DeJian's lineage show that the Xing Gong Quan dates back to these sessions, and it is a series of about a dozen forms. It is also called Vajra style. It is a special Shaolin style that today is almost extinct and in Henan Province it is practiced by a few people in the southern parts of the province.

Many of the forms are described on vcd now (in case you want to see them):
http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd2/coll_shaolin12.htm
http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin14.html

Tai Tzu is one of the styles that these Fu Ju sessions has incorporated.
One of the forms of this system: Po Lian (destroy) Quan mixed in a lot of Shaolin Tai Tzu (a specific style dating from early Northern Song Dynasty reign of Zhao Kuang Yin, who lived from 927-976).

Also, the third form of the Xing Gang system is a Mantis Hand based form, and this form was practiced in Shandong province. HOW did it get there? Or did it start there first before arriving at Shaolin?
Some Shaolin and non-Shaolin Tai Tzu forms contain the Mantis hand movements.

On the other hand, Shi Dejian's records preserved from Shaolin place Fu Ju at around 961, which is indeed within Emperor Zhao Kuan Yin still being alive.
---------------------
The Tang Lang version adds Wang Lang to a 18 masters list, and has Mantis being the style that is the end result.


1 - I don't see how Wang Lang fought General Han Tong during the early Song Dynasty, when this General was killed at the start of that dynasty. He was stationed normally in Shandong province though before died defending the previous dynasty.

2 - But Illya's site says that the late 900s was the time period that Wang Lang and Fu Ju were said to have done their martial arts meetings with the various masters, which was AFTER Tai Tzu Emperor Zhao was dead already, he lived from 927-976. So that makes the #1 and #2 "foundational people" already dead by this time.

3 - of the legendary 18 masters, most seem to be from Song Dynasty. And, "a full one third of the masters listed all come from fictional novels. Yan Qing (#7) and Lin Chong (#13) come from the Water Margin and Emperor Taizu (#1), Han Tong (#2), Zhang En (#3) and Huai De (#11) come from the Fei Long Quan Zhuan (Chinese: 飞龙全传 – “The Complete Flying Dragon Biography”)" (though these 4 people of course really existed during and before the Song Dynasty's creation).

4 - Other extant Shaolin manuals (or their copies) that survived the 1928 fire give some clues:

"The Manuscript of Shaolin Boxing" records that the Song Tai Tzu Emperor visited the Shaolin Temple and sent famous generals to Shaolin to teach monks about the art of war and at the same time learn Shaolin Martial Arts. The Great Song Emperor himself was very good at boxing too. He knew 32 moves of the Long Fist boxing.

"The Shaolin Annals of Martial Arts Monks" records “The Great Emperor of Song Dynasty, Zhao Kunyin, as a grandmaster of martial arts. He supported the head abbot of the Shaolin Temple and helped organize 3 National Competitions of Martial Arts for monks, his generals, and folk martial experts.” This represents the first time in history that a national level tournament combined the talents of Shaolin, the military, and civilian martial expertise. In total, 18 formal systems came together and competed.

5 - As stated earlier, in the preserved books of Shi Deqian, he put Fu Yu around 961, which is well within the time that Emperor Zhao Kuan Yin was still alive, and when he mostly likely would have had the time to visit Shaolin.

6 - Abbott Fu YU, from the 1200s, is credited with calling together the 26 most proficient monks to determine and study the most essential techniques of Shaolin Kung Fu. After training the monks in these techniques (which is the Shaolin Kan Jia Quan style), he sent them out to guard the 13 tollgates.
Can this event becoming conflated and confused with the earlier Fu Ju event?

7 - I know we had a long discussion here already once about Yuan Dynasty religious monk abbot Fu YU being verifiable as to his existence and Song Dynasty martial monk Fu Ju is not being verified (so far).
But, Shi Dijian in his books says that Fu Ju and Fu Yu were two separate people from two different time periods, that did similar things (bring people together to guard the temple).


Comments?

[Redfish]

Sal

From your post I gather that Master Illya has, or has access to, two original history books that were taken from the Shaolin temple during it's collapse in the warlords period. And in these books it directly mentions "Wang Lang"?

Is that what you're saying. Because the Chinese language books and research after WW2 on this until now have never found any direct independent mention of him or any truly credible sources on the subject in general.

You say the sources you have seen, what have you seen?

Redfish.

[B.Tunks]

Sal,

You read too much. There is a big difference between folk tradition and history and 95% of the theories you have relayed are unverifiable.

Redfish,

Who are these 'modern Shandong scene' exponents? Are you talking about competition wushu TLQ or are you referring to all TLQ currently found in Shandong? If so, what have you looked at, who have you felt or trained with whilst in Shandong (if you have had the chance)?

Re- Yu Qi: not everyone (in fact not many at all) believe Yu Qi is Wang Lang. There is no one consolidated Shandong view on any of this stuff. Historically the existance of Wang Lang is unverifiable. Some folk stories point to an alternative i.d but they are just that, folk stories. We will never know who he was and even if he existed. It has zero bearing on practicing the style itself so what's the point? (Besides being a nice tourist draw to Laoshan) And on top of that, there has never been a consistent origin legend either pre or post war, across any of the branches. WL was from here, he was from there, he lived this period, he lived that period, he trained at this temple, at that temple, he fought this person, that person, on and on and on... Legends not facts.

One thing is for sure, there is very little evidence that TLQ as it has been known in the last 2 centuries originated in the Song.

bt

[Sal Canzonieri]

I'm just making discussion, so don't get all belligerent with me, thanks.
If all you are going to contribute is "why bother discussing this", then can you please go away so that people who want to discuss it can do so, thanks.

Again, I quote Illya:

"However, most likely, Wang Lang lived (if he ever existed) at the beginning of the Northern Song Dynasty (969-1126) dynasties, primarily because of the existence of one source, independent from Praying Mantis Boxing traditional history. This source is two books that survived the fire when Shao Lin monastery was burned down by Chinese militarists (warlords) in 1928. The first is "Records of Shao Lin Monastery" and the second is "Records about Shao Lin Boxing". Both books contain the same data about significant events which took place in the monastery at the beginning of Song Dynasty."

According to Illya, who had access to these 2 Shaolin sources, the "Records of Shao Lin Monastery" and the "Records about Shao Lin Boxing" repeat the same names of the 18 masters, albeit in a different order than the list of 18 masters that most Tang Lang people know. So, this would appear that either it is a independent source showing that the event indeed took place during the Song Dynasty
OR
the author of "Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da Tuo Pu" used these same sources to get his list from.

Either way they both say the same thing, except the Shaolin books say that the event happened in the Song Dynasty.
The names of the list are early Song Dynasty personages.

I don't know whether Wang Lang is actually mentioned in the list that is in the Shaolin 2 books.

That's one of the things I was alluding to.
That the origin for the Shaolin Xing Gang Quan is the same as what these two Shaolin books list and it is the same essentially as the list that Tang Lang origin gives.

But not necessarily if the event actually happened, does it mean that Wang Lang was there.
Whether it happened in Song era or not.

IF Illya has seen Wang Lang's name amongst the list of the 18 masters in the Shaolin books, THEN that would prove "maybe" that Wang Lang was from Song era.

If his name was not amongst the 18, which Illya doesn't say on his site if it was or not, THEN it ONLY proves, maybe, that the gathering of masters event happened in the Song dynasty, and other records show this as well, but not knowing if Wang Lang's name is there in the Shaolin books, being independent sources, then no conclusion about when Wang Lang is from can be made.

So, maybe someone can contact him and ask if his name is there in the Shaolin sources?

[Three Harmonies]

He may read this forum, though I doubt it. Post a question on MQ forum, as I know he reads that one.
And before you go mouthing off to people, you may want to chill a second and consider what Tunks has to say. His understanding of both history and technique are second to no one in the Mantis world.

Cheers
Jake :)

[B.Tunks]

S,

How can you 'prove' something 'maybe'?

If you want me to be more 'productive', I suggest you try and contact Prof. Meir Shahar at Tel Aviv for some answers, esp concerning happenings and personages of Shaolin Si.

Thanks Jake, though not altogether true regarding my knowledge.

bt

[Redfish]

@ BT

I'm talking about the physical form of the movements and especially the forms themselves. I think everyone here has already discussed the clear differences. You can see similarities between Wong Hon Fun, Chiu Chi Man and our Lin Bo Yan families. You can see a different set of similarities between your school, Yu Tian Cheng and Chen le Ping, for example. There is another, third, clear difference with the modern wushu mantis form.

The former group has lots in common with other Shaolin styles such as Hung Gar, for example in the stances, stepping, like the warding off punch etc. The second group, based in Shandong, looks more like a unique style of movement.

This is pretty clear from my answer, in the context of what it was following on from. I'm sure it's nothing new on this forum. Cotterrel just calls it Shandong mantis and Hong Kong mantis over on his forum, perhaps he can explain that to you better than I can? I don't go fo that simple a view of it myself.

I'm 100% with you on your response to Sal.

@Sal

If you don't know that Wang lang was mentioned in those books then why argue for a quote that says they are a source placing him in the Song.

There's no logical through line to your posts at all and, as Tunks points out, no discerning between history, clues/threories or plain fantasy. It's too hard for me to follow them. Sorry.

[Three Harmonies]

BT
Comparitively speaking......you are light years away from some ;)
JAB :cool:

[B.Tunks]

RF,

>I'm talking about the physical form of the movements and especially the forms themselves. I think everyone here has already discussed the clear differences. You can see similarities between Wong Hon Fun, Chiu Chi Man and our Lin Bo Yan families.

As you know, there are of course also differences.

>You can see a different set of similarities between your school, Yu Tian Cheng and Chen le Ping, for example. There is another, third, clear difference with the modern wushu mantis form.

OK, thanks for the clarification. You're right. However, what about the similarities? Even in terms of forms, eg. Beng Bu, Duo Gang, Cha Chui and Tou Tao (BYTT from mainland and LGY line's Tanglang Tou Tao), and depending on the clan, Shiba Suo (aka 'sou') and Shuang Cha Hua are all virtually the same. Also, in applications, the most important part of any martial system, the similarities are even greater.

>The former group has lots in common with other Shaolin styles such as Hung Gar, for example in the stances, stepping, like the warding off punch etc. The second group, based in Shandong, looks more like a unique style of movement.

That's why I asked which particular schools you might have been referring to, because in my opinion those things are also definitely there. True, there are some schools in Shandong which 'look' a lot different from your own line (for example), in terms of stepping and certain 'static' postures etc, but I hold that there are some that look and in fact are quite similar. It could be argued though that there has been as much absorption of external flavours in Shandong TLQ (Tongbi, fanzi, luohan, bagua, xingyi, cha, sunbin etc) as there was in Shanghai and onwards with Yingzhao Quan in the Jingwu (and regardless of much some LGY descendants hate to hear it, of indigenous southern styles particularly after the move to HK)

>This is pretty clear from my answer, in the context of what it was following on from. I'm sure it's nothing new on this forum. Cotterrel just calls it Shandong mantis and Hong Kong mantis over on his forum, perhaps he can explain that to you better than I can? I don't go fo that simple a view of it myself.

I don't really know what Mr Cottrell has to do with the discussion, though I suspect that this view stems from the Inside Kungfu article of several years ago (where he famously/infamously quoted one of my masters saying that what he was seeing resembled 'nan quan'. What many people don't know is that this comment was based on many years of seeing LGY line TLQ out of HK- regardless of its accuracy). I agree that it's no simple matter but I also don't think labelling things by place name does any harm as it's common practice throughout all martial arts and always has been. I don't know why you don't go in for the use of place names, as it would make your description of differences between the above mentioned families much easier. I think you are right, there are differences and I also think geography plays a signifigant part. Even between cities as close as Yantai and Qingdao.

Now I'm beggining to sound just like every other internet authority. Thanks Redfish.

bt

[Shaolin Master]

Sal,

Regarding Shaolin Xingongquan:

In fact is of the same essence to what is known as Northern Shaolin art, often referred to as Shaolin Kanjiaquan. The key lineages in existance include those of Gu Ruzhang (such as those from Chan Kwok Wai, Wong Jack Man, etc), Yang Xiushan (Such as my own, Yu Hualong, Zhang Rusong, Guo Mingtang etc) and although they have order differences they are essentially the same. Excepting that Yan Xiushan's line has some Bajiquan etc elements included and Gu Ruzhangs has other Nanjing/Liuhe etc elements included.

Of the ten series the third is Lianhuanshou also known as Tanglianshou orTanglangshou. It does not have any real Tanglang flavor as it maintains to its Northern Shaolin/Changquan type structure. The name arises because of certain techniques such as Gouloushou etc. I would tend to believe the adoption of these aspects later rather than earlier.

Regarding other assumptions:

I would agree that there is no logical inference from any of the pieces and would have to be strung more carefully and verifiably for the continual support of your "one" theories that are inevitably disprovable.

The 18 styles aspect:

There are some basic cultural understandings that would allow scrutiny of the numbers of things (18) the dates (Song etc) and worsely the identities (e.g. identity of fame used to depict method yet the timing of their life not necessarily the same).

To an earlier post on 7star Mantis and Shaolin influence:

Chachui, Xiaohuyan, SiluBengda are all sets in Yanqingquan (also named Mizongquan or in broad terms Shaolinquan). They have been mantisised but many elements are the same, thus Wang rongsheng's influence is undisputed to that regard.

Kind Regards
Wu Chanlong

[B.Tunks]

To an earlier post on 7star Mantis and Shaolin influence:

Chachui, Xiaohuyan, SiluBengda are all sets in Yanqingquan (also named Mizongquan or in broad terms Shaolinquan). They have been mantisised but many elements are the same, thus Wang rongsheng's influence is undisputed to that regard.

Kind Regards
Wu Chanlong

Mr Wu,

Nice one. I completely left out Mizong in my short list of influences.
Thanks,

BT

[Redfish]

Sifu Tunks

Thanks for the reply.

I know what you mean. I saw, for example, a video of Yu Tianlu playing a Fan Che form and it's pretty standard as far as stances and moves go. However, It looks to me that the footwork in our (Luo Guang Yu - Lin Bo Yan) family is quite different to that of the Shandong based clubs.

I don't like that system of place names for Mantis that I brought up for a few reasons. The group of similar styles I mentioned gets called Hong Kong Mantis. However, Lin Boyan trained directly with Luo Guang Yu in Shanghai early on, then after he graduated eventually relocated to Malaysia and Singapore where he trained his next generation. Hong Kong was not in the equation at all.

If pressed to identify groups that appear more similar to each other and give them place names I usually come up with these:

1) Post revolution mainland China Mantis
2) Everywhere else Mantis.

And don't forget I'm only talking about Seven Star.

And finally - Luo Guang Yu was from Shandong as is the known lineage of 7* so it's all Shandong Mantis. Of course, we know what we mean and that's just semantics - which is what a lot of this comes down to finally.

I think it's an interesting conversation we're having but I guess we are hijacking Sal's thread/chaos.

RF

[r.(shaolin)]

Here is some of my research on Fu Yu (Chin.: 福裕).
It has been posted on this site under my Chinese name Yaojin:

http://www.shaolin.cn.com/forums/viewthread/172/

This research (and text) was incorporated into this article:
http://www.shaolin.cn.com/site/article/venerable_fuyu.php/

r.

[B-Rad]

To an earlier post on 7star Mantis and Shaolin influence:

Chachui, Xiaohuyan, SiluBengda are all sets in Yanqingquan (also named Mizongquan or in broad terms Shaolinquan). They have been mantisised but many elements are the same, thus Wang rongsheng's influence is undisputed to that regard.

Kind Regards
Wu Chanlong
Does anyone have videos online of Chachui or SiluBengda? Or know if there's videos of the mizong quan versions of these forms out there? I learned a mizong quan set awhile back that looks like what I've seen of Xiaohuyuan (from what I've seen on videos). Just curious... I never learned the name of my mizong quan form, but after watching some vids, I assume it's the same. Do most mantis lineages have these forms as part of their curriculums?