understanding forms and the underlying theory...help???

[monkeyfoot]

Hello people. I recently thought about forms and the whole learning process and came up with some questions.

I can perform a good few forms well and understand the applications taken from the forms. Although this be, I feel that my understanding as to 'WHY' the form is how it is and 'WHAT' its trying to convey to us is kinda limited.

Each form must have an underlying priciple that it is trying to teach, but i simply dont undertstand/know this. I feel like I get taught the moves and applications but never really the 'hardcore' theory.

For example Dore Kwan Kuen translates as 'Avoid Force Through Parrying Boxing'. But what exactly does this mean? Is it referring to the use of the 'ward off fist' in the form etc and saying that this is an important aspect to grasp?

Another form - Bai Yuan translates as White Gibbon Out Of The Cave.....WHY is it called this, whats the whole 'gibbon and cave' deal.

So yes you can see my confusion. It doesnt matter if I can perform forms and applications well..... I feel useless if I dont understand the theory.

So my plea to you guys would be to give a general over view of these forms and anything that you feel would be relevant knowledge to know.

Heres what I have got so far:

Dore Kwan Kuen - the importance of avoid force through deflecting/parrying
Ha Fu Gau Cha Kuen - the importance of intercepting??????
Sab Pa Sao Kuen - not sure
Chap Choy Kuen - the importance of the hammer fist
Yee Lo Yare Yue Kuen - dont understand the whole 'essential routine' etc
Dai Fan Chie Kuen - etc
Pak Yuen Chor Dung Kuen - etc

craig

[EarthDragon]

In certain understandings forms were created to assist in practicing different levels of agility, speed, balance, grace, and power. while some forms focus on these aspects you wil see tht each form is specific to its meaning.

For example 8 step has a basic form chi sao (7 hands), this form is praticed to string individual moments together for the novice to understand flow.

Da fan Che (big rolling wheel) teaches the student larger circular movements with emphasis on balance and agility.

Li pi (Power Cut) teaches the student power.

LanJie Teaches speed and precision with emphasis on linear movments.

so perhaps you can disect your forms and try to realize what emphasis each one is trying to convey. Sometimes this is in the name but not always.

Each form taught and practiced should in combination make a well rounded martial artist. Be well

[monkeyfoot]

cheers earth dragon. I suppose that with time and experience you become aware of what a form is trying to convey to you and what principles it teaches. I just have to practice and practice.

Is there any 7 star guys out there who could comment on this?

craig

[Sifu Darkfist]

Generally, when an individual composes a form it has specific conections to a couple of improvements or special abilities that that individual has uncovered and would like to train in addition to what he or she was taught.

Body compostition and ability dictate the theory of technique as well as emphasis on evolution.
A good example of this is the reduction of wasted movement that many refined styles such as Praying Mantis, Wing Chung, etc. convey.
I being a composer myself, can honestly say that my entire motivation was modernization, (thus evolution) in the TCMA arena without going to MMA.
My Purpose in my composition remains the demonstration of existing MMA properties of TCMA, if one only gets to the UNDERSTANDING that you speak of.
So i wrote a form i call Baji Tang Lang Zai Yao. It encompasses all traditional movement with the elimination of certain elements of ancient combatitive thinking.
I did this through the observation of my students, other students, myself in video, all engaged in hand to hand applications at combat speed (as much as possible).

I hope this inside look at compostition gives you a clear answer to your Inquiry.
James

oh even if you never share the form,,,, I believe you should combine your best moves into a coherent form that you can train for the rest of your life. It will sharpen you as a martial artist and train our talents not those of other men.:)

[monkeyfoot]

thankyou for your input sifu darkfist

its much appreciated when senior members of the forum post up. I do actually create my own spontanious forms sometimes - basically going through the moves I prefere to work with the most. I suppose that to really understand a form would be to understand 'why' parts work for 'you'. That way you are not simply copying something that worked for someone else but are instead using it as a basis for evolving what works for you.....does that make sense?

anyway thankyou again for your imput. I was a little disheartened at first due to the lack of responces that I recieved, so thanks to anyone who takes the time to post.

craig

[German Bai Lung]

Hi everone,

Spontaneous forms: very good for advanced students, to recognize how good they are at "feel" and "understand" techniques from different forms. If you can´t cling techniques in a way that makes sence together, you need more practise in those forms and techniques. It must comes out of your body - not your head.

For the underlying principle:
Yes, sure every form got his principle. Some are obvious some are not. I strongly believe it is a point that every student must work out for himself. This kind of experience is important to learn one of the last thing about the form you work with.
But often the name got nothing to do with that principle! Names are also given for just naming the form. Or because of the look. Like Yin Chin Chuen Lam Kuen (Swallow flying through the forest): up and down, for and back, up and down, etc ... like a bird flying through the forest.
But one of the main goals of that form is surely to strengthen your legs and makes you quick. But a form called: I make your legs strong and quick, would sound silly ... ;)

[monkeyfoot]

But a form called: I make your legs strong and quick, would sound silly ...

LOL that was great.
Ive really began to break down my forms, study how my body moves and what does/doesnt work well for me. Maybe this will help to clarify what I am being taught. Or maybe it seems more confusing because I am at the beginning of the path, maybe I will see the greater picture as I move further down the road.

GBL - is there any specific reason for naming a form 'white gibbon exits the cave' or 'mantis exits the cave'. I mean there must be a reason for names because what would be the point of differentiating between whether its a mantis or a monkey that exits? LOL :confused:

craig

[Paul T England]

Hi all,

I think most of the forms have a unique technique or principle that the form gets its name from. Sometimes the name is just the look or feeling of the form as with swallow rushes forest.

my thoughts

bung bo - 12 keyword and unique step and technique
dore Kwan - parry principle and unique technique
Sap Ba Sau - lef and right sides and 18 different techniques?
Chop Choy - Develop the legs, jumping, twisting and hammer fist?
Yee Lo Yare Yue - basic combinations for fighting and power?

Paul

[German Bai Lung]

Hmm, I guess this: White ape (not necessarily Gibbon) is a well known Name of chinas literature. There are many storys with "white ape/monkey".
So it is not surprising, that forms are named after him, especially the sets white ape comes out of the cave - w.a. comes steals a peach - w.a. watch the banket ... are all parts of the common stories from the White Ape History.

Later some Teacher create new sets and named them after those existing sets just switch White Ape into Mantis ... ´cuz of the relation to the Mantis style ....

[monkeyfoot]

thankyou paul

I was thinking simular to you last night when training
heres what i got

bung bo - 12 keyword and unique step and technique and speed

gung lik kuen - power, stance training,

dore Kwan - focuses on short range attacks, parry principle and unique technique, perticularly the counter intercepting hand, teaches importance of the 7 star stance,

Sap Ba Sau - lef and right sides - takes from 18 masters of 18 different systems?

Chop Choy - Develop the legs, jumping, twisting and hammer fist, hard and soft methods,

black tiger cross - intercepting hands, speed, ferocity, vital area striking - throat eyes scrotum

Yee Lo Yare Yue - basic combinations for fighting and power?