Bear hand vs gloved

[Ray Pina]

I find that there is a different feel between these two types of fighting. In barehand or even light glove fighting, there is this tension you can feel between the two fighters, this barrier of protection, an area where you feel good because you can't get hit with something that can really damage you .... so you enter it with caution.

I don't feel that barrier with boxing gloves. I feel the other guy is more willing to exchange blows, is much more wild and agressive; almost total lack of concern, of defense.

Has anyone else sensed this?

This is something I'm going to have to adress to go fight in the ring because normally I throw a strike or two into that No Man's land, and chip a forearm, make it clear that there is danger here. But with the boxing glove, that's just a waste of energy, it has no real effect. The punches just keep coming.

I'll have to make some adjustment, that's all. But wondering if others have realised this as well.

[Oso]

did someone say 'bear' hand?


:cool:


:D

[MasterKiller]

I'm a lot more conservative in 4 oz gloves. Lots of low kicks to set up the hands. I don't like to trade blows, so I try to clinch up and throw/takedown pretty quickly.

In 16 oz gloves/headgear/shin pads, I'm pretty adventurous. I throw tornado kicks, wheel kicks, sweeps. You name it. Some stuff just doesn't work well in all those pads, like collar bone strikes, or hooking/trapping. So, you have to adjust the game to fit the rules. Six of one, half a dozen of the other...

[WanderingMonk]

did someone say 'bear' hand?


:cool:


:D
I believe he did, it that case, the bear wins of course. bear wins 5 seconds into round 1, KO, after it successfully use its bear paws technique.

[Judge Pen]

Ray I think that you are correct. I find myslef being a little more wild and aggressive with more protective gear on than with less. I also feel like I have more targets without gloves.

[lkfmdc]

trying.... hard.... to..... resist......

it's

BARE hand

BARE hand

B .... A ... R.... E

A bear is a furry animal that lives in the woods....

BARE hand

[bodhitree]

exactly
I thought a "bear hand" was a pastry.

[SevenStar]

that's a bear claw.

[Mika]

If we take bare-handed and make it "MMA gloves", does that change it?

Those guys (MMA fighters) practice hard. And so do other who use gloves like that. A few kung fu schools still do that. Well, still and still, those gloves in how they are today are a fairly new invention (there's been some sort of had protection for a long time, not talking about that now), but they are pretty close to bare knuckles.

By the way, how do you apply any TMA with boxing gloves?

[SifuAbel]

that's a bear claw.


I thought it was a bear finger, or is that a lady finger? Ketchup?!?!?!?

[Slade]

Maybe its just you guys I hate **** gloves esspessially any that contrict the wrist movement. I must prefer to fight without gloves, even full contact, I find I can go harder without gloves merely because I can block everything alot easier., if I do get hit I get hit, when sparring like that if I call a stop my partner will oblidge so it makes not much difference.

Ive lost count of how many times ive re-broken my nose :)

[KC Elbows]

The salmon feint works every time.

[Wong Fei Hong]

I find that when people wear headgear its more inviting to take their head off and vice versa , whereas when its gloves or no gloves its more body shots.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i like beer hand best.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

That's Beer Claw, silly.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

poor ray ... his serious post got owned by a typo.

it would be worse if he sat on his balls or something though.

[Face2Fist]

Deep in the hundred acre wood,
Where Christopher Robin plays,
You'll find the enchanted neighborhood,
Of Christopher's childhood days.
A donkey named Eeyore is his friend,
And Kanga, and little Roo.
There's Rabbit, and Piglet, and there's Owl,
But most of all Winnie-the-Pooh.

Winnie-the-Pooh,
Winnie-the-Pooh,
Tubby little cubby all stuffed with fluff.
He's Winnie-the-Pooh.
Winnie-the-Pooh.
Willy, nilly, silly, old bear

[Ray Pina]

Even with MMA gloves I don't strike the forearm of an incoming jab because it just doesn't cause enough pain but I give my distancing and reach away. But I can throw a good shot in while retreating a bit and that slows someone down, because a MMA glove landing on the face will certainly wake someone up.

....

Yea, I've always been a bad speller and my teachers used to make fun when I'd flunk spelling tests because I had better things to do then memorize a list of words and they said I'd never be a writer ...... thank God for Bill Gates. Now I can fly anywhere in the world, scracth off a few hundred words, hit spell check, and it's all good in the neighborhood.

Sorry, I don't have the time to do that for you folks.

[SifuAbel]

This reminds me of the and/nad fiasco.

[lkfmdc]

My personal favorite is when Ray offers to

"meat man to man..." :eek:

[Sifu Darkfist]

This is an obvious difference to those that have faced both. The endless wheel of oblivion is a consequence of glove wearing. However i feel if you focus on penetration with punches and just hit on your way to elbow and to chin na or limb breakage without the extra pump or feelers if you will you will be just fine.

also you sound as if adjustment will come naturally so it probably doesnt mean much in the end you will overcome.

and if all else fails bust out the bear claw
(sorry got carried away)

[Ray Pina]

I nver wrap my hands and I don't tighten the laces/velcro on my gloves BUT last night I tighened them up to feel what it would feel like in new, foreign gloves and worked some shadow boxing, tried to visualize.

I can make it feel natural in one month's time.

Speaking of bears ... bear shoulder, eagle wrists, dragon body, chicken feet, tiger's head ..... the 5 Hsing-I requirements.

[Ford Prefect]

That looks like the special olympics version of the most muscular pose. :)

[Wong Fei Hong]

I laughed so hard


GunnedDownAtrocity poor ray ... his serious post got owned by a typo.

it would be worse if he sat on his balls or something though.

and the winnie the pooh song

omg :eek:

Then i read rays post about making it feel natural and i looked at that bagua bear photo and i thought it was ray.
I was crying from laughter thinking it couldnt get worse and then fords last comment just finished me off.

[Christopher M]

Speaking of bears ... bear shoulder, eagle wrists, dragon body, chicken feet, tiger's head ..... the 5 Hsing-I requirements.

Is your left hand turned palm-in there? The photo is kind of blurry, it's hard to tell.

[Face2Fist]

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Ray Pina]

Is your left hand turned palm-in there? The photo is kind of blurry, it's hard to tell.


Both palms are out. Just doing some Ba Gua twisting.... from the shoulder to the finger tips.

[Face2Fist]

You know, you guys have an awfully lot to say, and seem to have a good time poking fun.

But you know what ... I AM COMPETING NEXT MONTH. And Face2Fist, I'll be competing in your home state. Why don't you join me? Could you make 187lbs if you backed away from the computer? We can meet in the ring, with gloves.


well ray, you set yourself up for jokes. sometimes you say valid things and then next thing you know you just ruin it by saying dumb sh*t, how about being humble once in a while.

there you go again calling people out, a simple troll is getting to you, you need to relax and take things less serious. get a sense of humor. dont take life too serious. lifes too short to be angry at the world.
good luck in your fight. i hope you do better than last time.

[Face2Fist]

btw, where are you fighting ray? and under what rules?

[Ray Pina]

You know, you guys have an awfully lot to say, and seem to have a good time poking fun.

But you know what ... I AM COMPETING NEXT MONTH. And Face2Fist, I'll be competing in your home state. Why don't you join me? Could you make 187lbs if you backed away from the computer? We can meet in the ring, with gloves.

[Ray Pina]

First, I didn't mean to disrupt the flow of the thread -- which of course has been derailed anyway -- but I wanted to include a pic of my master, without which, I wouldn't have the balls, backed by his skills, to call you on your stupidty right here. I know you pride yourself on wit, and quick, sound, factual comebacks. But this is martial art. Only one thing matters .... what can you do!

That's why I don't feel like I set myself up for jokes. Quite the contrary, I take this very seriously. I'm a happy-go-lucky guy ... actualy a hippy, pot-head surfer I've been called before. But when it comes to martial arts I straighten up, stand erect, clasp my hands behind my back when someone my senior adresses me. Share what I can with someone who might not have picked up a puzzle piece that I got somewhere along the way.

I never attack someone's ideas here, just maybe offer another route ... maybe for someone who's a little too old or injured to train the other way, the popular and accepted way. That's it. If you really search your soul, you'll see that it's me that is being ridiculed. And quite often from you.

...
I'm fighting in Coach Ross event next month, San Da rules. I know we've had our differences, but I actually respect the man. Not only is he training fighters himself, he's really running the only venue where we can express ourselves safely.

I'm just hoping I can bring my A game because I've developed some things since my last time and win or lose, I just hope I express myself fully. Leave nothing to regret. And then go on with my mission.

[fa_jing]

Hey Ray, looks like your conditioning has improved by a few quantum leaps. Bully on that.

LOL @ Ford though

[Oso]

Ray, just curiosity questions so don't take offense.

Are you competing in "A'' or "B" division?

How much are you running (or other cardio)?

[Rockwood]

To Ray-

Glad to hear you are going to fight in the San Da match. I've never seen one of Mr. Ross's events, but I've seen quite a bit of San Shou out in San Jose, and these are very competitive fights. Even at an amateur level, this is above and beyond what 99% are willing to do. No way in hell would I enter a fight like that!!!!

I for one admire that you put your real feelings and ideas out on the net for trolls to attack. There are many folks who are just lurking that might find inspiration in what you are doing.

I think you'll find yourself a lot more comfortable in the ring the second time around. Good luck and enjoy yourself.

Sincerely,

Jess O'Brien
Oakland, CA

[Ray Pina]

The weight melted off after my master taught me something about internal in January. It was the little seed I needed and now my technique is growing.

I look forward to this fight, though there is a tremendous amount of pressure. My master's style is new. No one knows it. I want to bring it to the forefront, so whem someone says, "I want to fight in the ring, what should I train?" People can respond, "Well, try BJJ and Thai Boxing. Or, boxing and grecco roman. Or, if you're inclined to that sort of thing, E-Chuan. They can all fight. Have proven it."

That's my dream. My master is very quiet, has a small mouth. I know how I come off here, but that's only because I'm a mouth of one. I try to let the technique talk but that aint always enough. I'm hoping a good showing next month will say something to myself, to my master and to anyone who's interested in listening.

I'm going to fight in the "B" level (less than 5 ring matches). My goal is to go into the cage next year, but if I have fun at the tournament I'll stay with San Da too. Experience is experience.

I was in the best shape of my life this Sept. from training and surfing. The water's getting cold and it's dark after work now so I just started swimming a few nights a week just to stay active. I'm beginning to eat a little better too and laying off the smoke somewhat but with friends like I got ....:cool:

I'm torn though. For these other fights I get confirmation like 5 days out. So I prepare from then but I'm not expecting a long fight. It's more about preparing myself mentally and getting my body strong (no sex 3 days out, no smoke the day before) so I show up feeling strong.

I don't want to get too crazy now because I don't want to reinforce that I'm going to "fight" someone for 3 rounds. I'm trying to bring my way of fighting into the ring. Jam the guy up right away and hurt him to a point he don't want to fight. So I got to contemplate how to do this without letting the guy "slip" or grab a rope to stop. I don't want to stop and start, stop and start.

This is my gameplan but I know the other guy is training too. I also know no one wants to hear about gloves and head gear. So I'm working with gloves now, tying them tight, to get a feel for what would be worthwhile.

That's pretty much it. We'll see what happens.

[Ray Pina]

Hey Jess. I don't know man. You're a big dude with power.:)

Anyway, how ya doing? Thanks for the autograph by the way. I keep that book in a special place. I really enjoyed it.

Next time you're in NYC you have to let me know, we can get some grub. I got some footage I know you'll enjoy.

Peace and be well.
Ray

[Rockwood]

Hahah!!!@ For sure man, really looking forward to meeting up with you next time I hit NYC. It's a hellof a town....

Take care,

Jess



Hey Jess. I don't know man. You're a big dude with power.:)

Anyway, how ya doing? Thanks for the autograph by the way. I keep that book in a special place. I really enjoyed it.

Next time you're in NYC you have to let me know, we can get some grub. I got some footage I know you'll enjoy.

Peace and be well.
Ray

[Oso]

Ray, Honestly, that doesn't sound like much of a training program for a full contact fight. About a year and a half ago I did a Lei Tai match. Just a single match, just 90 second rounds. I barely beat a guy with just 3 years experience. Maybe that sounds a bit ****y but all things being equal, I do expect to pretty much handle anyone with just that much experience relative to my own.

Anyway, my point being that I only trained a little bit for it and was gassing like a mother and hence, looked like **** on the tape, irregardless of winning the match.

also, I came close to being matched up with Chris Heinzman (sp?) a TCMA hop gar guy who is doing a lot of mma now...and winning. I met him that day and was pretty **** happy about not having to fight him as I immediately realized he would have beat the hell out of me simply by being in better condition if not by greater skill.

I'd hit the road or the rope a bit more and kill the smoke if you're serious about fighting.

Good luck.

[Ray Pina]

If I was fighting like they fight I'd say you're right. Last time I ran miles on the boardwalk, jumped rope like Rocky and sparred tons... still gassed. Was worried about losing rounds, being kicked. Not getting points for punching his arms but him getting points for kicking my leg.


I'm not worried about any of that now. This time I'm in shape. Been fighting bare knuckle against guys who have 40+ lbs on me. I'm not aproaching this like a boxing match. I'm going to a war. I kill you right away or you kill me.

I might not be able to pull it off. Maybe I take a shot that drops me right away. But I'm not changing anything -- stuff that has brought me home unmarked from serious fighting all year -- for a single ring match.

I would do this next Sun. just to do it.

[Christopher M]

Both palms are out. Just doing some Ba Gua twisting.... from the shoulder to the finger tips.


Ahhh... that makes more sense. Looks like my bear shape, only I yang out my wrists a bit more.

[Oso]

okay.

good luck.

[Mika]

Just out of curiosity, I'll repeat my question. Sorry if I missed an answer somewhere.

How do you guys apply your TMA with boxing gloves? I mean, basic punches are mechanically very similar, but how about grabbing etc., or blocking and guarding your head?

Maybe I should actually reverse the question. How do you guys apply your boxing techniques and tactics to your TMA?

[Mika]

Come on, y'all, you can answer that. :)

Too simple or something? Because the answer isn't obvious to me...maybe I just don't get it or something. Please, enlighten me. :)

[Rockwood]

Man it's not too hard, put on a pair of gloves and adapt. It takes some time but you'll find that there are lots of cool ways to adapt what you do for different rules and conditions.

For Xing Yi or Ba Gua you just put on the gloves and start whaling away. It shouldn't make any difference at all. You just have to remmeber not to hit with the edge or palm or back of your hand if you are fighting in boxing rules, people get ****ed off if you don't follow the rules.

Of course it's hard to grab. Block and guard head as normal. After a few minutes the gloves can feel heavy so it takes some getting used to. But try it, you'll like it.

-Jess O

[Mika]

I actually did it for 12 years like that. Now I am doing it the more traditional way. To me, they are two different things, so that's why I was asking, I wanted to see if there was something someone was doing that I never heard of. I like Sport Sanda, though, and I gladly follow the scene grow.

But it's not the same as what we do without the gloves. If you don't trust me, try it. :)

Our brothers in Poland are good at traditional Sanda.

http://www.potku.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=990

http://www.potku.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=966

[Ray Pina]

Close my door, open the other guys door, control hit .... nothing changes. A little change because it's not worth punching your limbs. So instead, I over invest on controlling the guy... that pays big dividense anyway. When you control, you can hit without being hit. Than hitting isn't such a concern.

But can you control the guy without being landed on? gloves have nothing to do with that. That's technique.

[Mika]

Ray, give it a shot. It IS different. ;)