Bung Bu And Applications Or Abstracts Thereof [Archive]

Sifu Darkfist

11-12-2005, 04:09 PM

Well to answer your question, we explode out of the eye gouge into oblivion not stopping until tiger stance arm break/backfist. Pardon me friends i use extremely American coloquilism for all of this only because i mostly teach English speaking fighters that would like to keep the wording simple leaving more room for the concepts to be fully explored.

alot of our power and thrust is derived from years of baji as well so our Bung Bu looks a bit different than others in the sense of power emphasis.
Terrific question this thread is really Monkey's

monkeyfoot

11-14-2005, 02:42 AM

Good job darkfist, it would have been bad form for me to hijack a good thread.

Sifu Darkfist - the 2 moves after 'catching the cicarda' in the beginning of bung bo.....do you personally link these from the 2 moves before, or do you use them as separate applications to simply charge down your opponent from head on. Im only interested as I have seen different takes on the application to this.

Basically this was my question. Im very curisous about bung bo. The sheer amounts of varitations and takes on this form as well as the diverse difference between how different lineages string together applications really interests me.

I posted a thread recently about the underlying theory of mantis forms. This topic has been an interest of mine the past few weeks as i am curious about peoples apporach to the form. Whats your focuses, favourite/most worked on apps, and takes on the form.

lets just begin with bung bo and then see where it takes us.

cheers
craig

monkeyfoot

11-14-2005, 02:51 AM

Continuing the discussion about the 3rd and 4th move in bung bo.

My lineage simply starts with the supplermentary punch and then catches the same arm to pull them forward off balance. (I noticed you mentioned an eye gouge application- we only use this move for catching the arm).

We then lean into a forward hill climbing stance with a palm strike to the chest and then step forward and strike to the chest/face with a right punch.

Craig

Sifu Darkfist

11-14-2005, 07:57 AM

after the kick to the low shin it is a drive into the victim with relentless tenacity.
THe palm is a power push that is meant to overwhelm the victim and allow for a devastating punch coupled with full body power. so yes the move is essentially the same however ours resembles a frieght train at this point.

This is why i argue with so called mma guys about the origin of their stuff, i already see the same tactics in bung bu the first line of the form is a perfect example of this OLD fighting mentality this shows the Validity of what the masters taught even in todays so called modern world. The point is killing by hand was much more applicable then because men didnt have a choice.
opps got off again sorry
back to bung bu

Oso

11-14-2005, 01:09 PM

shave type block w/ left hand which then drives into the chest with the burst step

same hand palm blocks and right hand strikes on the next step forward

right hand grabs and pulls opponent into left punch/right knee combination

elbow drop/arm break

back fist to head

turning and blocking

groing slap/cross kick combo

arm break/bar

that's pretty much ours for 3 to the end of 1st road/beginning of second (I'm still a little unclear on that.)

all of it done suppa fast and hard

waylander

11-14-2005, 01:51 PM

We open with a block and punch before moving into the tiger riding stance and the bu chan . We use this as our right mantis hand blocks a right punch and attaches on , the lead left mantis hand blocks the following left counter punch and attaches on so creating a crossarm trap . The left mantis hand continues to pluck the left counter puch and follows with the left thrusting palm strike up your opponents arm to strike the face in a hill climbing stance before following through with the powerful straight punch to the throat in a right hill climbing stance .

monkeyfoot

11-14-2005, 03:06 PM

thanks for the replies guys.

I dont mind where this is taken darkfist, do you want to expand on what you were saying, I am interested. We'll also still stick to apps though.

craig

Sifu Darkfist

11-15-2005, 10:21 AM

It seems many have forgotten the emphasis on overwhelming attack incurred by the composer of bung bu. (not any of you guys that are replying) but i have seen Bung Bu without tenacity and broken into unnatural progressions such as pauses where there are none etc. With reagard to the end of the third line and the begining of the fourth many styles do not emphasize the throws in these movements and i feel it is unfortunate (while i am the first to admit there is 3 or four apps for each move) these paritcular throws have served the san shou ring and real life equally well. Not to mention their effectiveness with grapplers and fighting grapplers, anyway it is something to ponder.

monkeyfoot

11-15-2005, 11:44 AM

Darkfist I do agree with you about the bursting through of bung bo. The mantid is a fierce fighter and forms should imitate a mantids mindset and be fiercly fast. The form translates as 'crushing/bursting steps' so it would puzzle me why anyone would introduce pauses into the movements. I come from lee kam wings lineage and our version is done pretty much straight through with no pauses at all.

On the point of the beginning of the 3rd road and the beginning of the fourth. Here we are talking about the 'lower leg sprouting with mantis claw' and the 'fanning hand with collapsing stance' yes? Well I have seen many variations on this too. I would say that it is unnessesary to over emphasize the sweep to the point of kicking the leg high up to the side (cheif fox's bung bo video is a good example of this). I think he mentioned brendon lee taught him the form this. In our lineage the footwork is simply a '7 star stance' but the hand movement does swing back fast as if hitting the face/throat.

Whos to say whats right and whats wrong in the end.....except hmmm, wong long.

Craig

Sifu Darkfist

11-15-2005, 02:31 PM

its not really the foot sweep that i wish to see more of its the hard shift into bow and arrow stance. Any way great discussion

Ou Ji

11-15-2005, 03:47 PM

K.Brazier

11-15-2005, 10:21 PM

""I believe all the different versions of Bung Bo start out with a left palm block right punch except for one.""

There are many versions of Beng Bu. The lesser known ones start out differently from the widely known 7* version.

I practice Plum Flower beng Bu. It begins with eye strikes followed by groin strike.
In fact, though you can see that it is Beng Bu, the entire form only has 2 linear punches. the form dodges to the left and right most often, but not so much of the forward linear strikes.

In fact, the punch you mention(bu chuei), is not anywhere in my form. It is replaced by outer forearm elbow to the groin(bi zhou)and is the 2nd move not the first.

As for Taiji Beng Bu it also has a different beginning, but I will let Robert comment on that.

monkeyfoot

11-16-2005, 02:12 AM

There was a video called 'eskos bung bo' or something like that. I perticularly remember that the beginning was quite different to what I know of.
If I remember right, in the beginning he dropped into a circle entrance stance and punched out for a groin strike instead of the well know 'block and supplermentary punch in tiger riding'.

I think that whatever lineage the emphasis should be on the underlying theory, so hands and feet should be **** quick.

craig

Hua Lin Laoshi

11-16-2005, 03:45 PM

I believe all the different versions of Bung Bo start out with a left palm block right punch except for one. I can't remember which style has a couple of moves before this combo.

Can anyone refresh my memory?

I think it might be Taiji Meihua, not sure.

Wah Lum's Bung Bo has a couple of moves before the block/punch combo. I don't know about any of the others although I've seen the 7 Star version and it goes right into the block/punch.

Ou Ji

11-16-2005, 03:59 PM

Wah Lum's Bung Bo has a couple of moves before the block/punch combo.

Hmm, that's not the one I'm thinking of but you already know that. Thanks anyway.

:confused:

TaichiMantis

11-17-2005, 05:46 AM

This (http://www.mantismartialart.com/S4.wmv) version is the closest to the way I've learned bung bo.

Sifu Darkfist

11-17-2005, 06:02 AM

wow i would like to thank you for including this link for our viewing pleasure Taichi.
It is very different in flavor to ours, however for the most part i can recognize all the moves and their links to the same moves in our flavor. i like the emphasis on diversion of victims body weight in the forms underlying signature.

Maybe if i can get my rear end off of my essays and out of Training long enough to break out the camera i will perform ours for you to view here as well.
james

yu shan

11-17-2005, 07:43 AM

monkeyfoot

11-17-2005, 10:06 AM

Hey guys. Good video posted up. I would like to see your clip sometime darkfist. I am in the process of getting a video too.

yu shan - we also use the forearm as this makes contact with the chin/face as the hand reaches for the ear. What defensive moves have you been taught against the knee/punch.

craig

TaichiMantis

11-17-2005, 11:04 AM

I think our version is the only one I've seen that has the side kick, double hook down at the end.

mantis108

11-17-2005, 05:38 PM

This (http://www.mantismartialart.com/S4.wmv) version is the closest to the way I've learned bung bo.

This was performed by Se Siu Fook (sp?) who recently passed away in HK.

CCK TCPM version of Bengbu ends with the Yingyang Jiao (mandarin duck kick), Bi Shi (evasive stance) otherwise known as Feng Bi Zhang (sealing and evading palm). It is more a groin kick than a side kick. It also opens differently than most versions out there. The 2 men version of CCK TCPM Bengbu is a lot of fun as well.

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

Sifu Darkfist

11-17-2005, 08:41 PM

Ou Ji

I have video of Hu Xi Lin`s son Tony, performing their Bengbu. Tai ji Mei Hua version nicely done by Tony. I will check it out, I dont remember how it starts off hand.

The three takedowns at the end of 3 going into 4, the way I was taught is using deng ta smashing them with forearm. First road is just plain running over your antagonist. One of my guys uses the grab punch/knee combo in sparring. It seems some of his peers have trouble blocking the knee and punch at the same time. Even though they have been taught this since day one.

ahahaha i know what you are talking about with the knee punch combo Master Yang told us that GM Su used to move so fast in 2 man that everyone would have to choose which one to block because he would get one in every time on every one. The throws sound about the same as ours I need to video mine to update the vids to digital mine are all on old 8mm. i will try to do it soon one at combat speed and one at teaching speed so you guys can all compare.
BTW those links didnt work and i was disapointed i looked forward to seeing them maybe you can fix ? Chief fox is on the right track keep it up looks great

monkeyfoot

11-18-2005, 09:51 AM

heres a couple of bung bo vids, maybe you seen maybe not.

lee kam wing - my lineage
http://media.putfile.com/bung-bo-kuen---lee-kam-wing

Same place as the taichi mantis guy up top
http://media.putfile.com/pabu-1

unsure as to who this is
http://media.putfile.com/zheng-zhong-bung-bo

cheers
craig

if you didnt see, chief fox bung bo kuen - http://www.mccarriedesign.com/bungbo.mov

Sifu Darkfist

11-19-2005, 10:05 PM

finally got that vid done its not very good i have not done the form in a long while but it is what it is
right click on the icon and click save target as it is 33 mb
http://www.wutangdarkfistkungfu.com/freevideos.html

Ou Ji

11-20-2005, 09:09 AM

Nice clip. Had trouble viewing it on my laptop but got it to run ok on my graphics pc. There are errors in the stream but I got it to load in Media Studio so I can convert it to a smaller file and change format if anyone else has trouble viewing.

Which style is this? I see you open with a groin strike.

For you dial-up guys here's a smaller copy in Windows Media format. It's about 4 meg compared to the original 33 meg.

http://media.putfile.com/Wutang-Bung-Bo

Sifu Darkfist

11-20-2005, 09:14 AM

Well it is Wutangs version of the form my personal flavor designates that a small man such as me goes in for the kill. Groin strike eye gouge (actually the first punch is inside the ribs originally) I just goe b alls to the wall for applications purposes as i have said my master points out that each technique has 3 to four possible applications. this is small man version he:D hehe.

yu shan

11-20-2005, 09:40 AM

Discussions with PM Masters have all seem to concur that Mantis goes to the eyes and groin areas.

Darkfist, I have alot of respect for the boxer short in stature. I have had my ars handed to me a few times by these shorter men. They always seem to have something to prove and usually do! I have a kf brother shorter than me (me 5ft 8in on a good day) but he busts my chops doing two-man forms and on some drills, he is very powerful, too much on the humble side though. Yes, I jump out to side and punch to the ribs also.

yu shan

11-20-2005, 09:55 AM

Monkeyfoot

The unsure clip (#3) is my Shiye, Master Shr Zhengzhong.

Michael Dasargo

11-21-2005, 11:56 AM

Shifu Tony Puyot:

http://mantisskills.com/Media/BengBu.wmv

Sample Applications:

http://mantisskills.com/Media/FormApplications

Sifu Darkfist

11-21-2005, 04:07 PM

that there is some good gung fu nice site too mantis portion shows you guys ooze with high level skill. would love to have a chance to enjoy one of your seminars
James

Oso

11-21-2005, 06:51 PM

definitely needs to be experienced in person.

the vid is a nice glimpse but you guys should definitely try to make it the next time he's in Tampa.

The hurricane just added a very nice ambiance to the training. :)

You'll definitely leave with plenty of information. He doesn't hold back if you're willing to train hard and sweat.

monkeyfoot

11-22-2005, 05:27 AM

good video darkfist

Does your style tend to stay quite upright - in horse stances etc. The foot work seemed quite rigid and stiff (thats not as a negative btw) and the body worked very 'tight'. I find this an interesting contrast to other styles whos movements are very fluid and low.

thanks again - thats the 8th bung bo video I now have.

Craig

Sifu Darkfist

11-22-2005, 10:01 AM

lol, actually i can play it both ways the way in which you speak fluid low etc. I just find baji influence superior in real applications.
however i am 5 foot 4 inches and if i play to low i cannot hit targets, also the rigid leg work is for extreme abrupt power explosions derived from using the entire body.

In advanced forms i go from low to high to low to high much more noticeably in upward explosion as well as linear explosion. The baji one punch is the culprit for giving me that extra umph that does call fo extremely firm footing.

Also my greatest personal ability is to maintain my footing so my height and balance allow me to have freedom up or down.

also this form is not one i practice often, although i think it fundamental for the system my personal belief is that it is far to linear to show my strengths. so i teach it and practice others.

So my flavor is not the definition of the entire style and i would think it irresponsible to assume that. However i emphasize speed and abrupt power differently then most other practioners including my own students do to body size esp. :)

Michael Dasargo

11-22-2005, 01:51 PM

that there is some good gung fu nice site too mantis portion shows you guys ooze with high level skill. would love to have a chance to enjoy one of your seminars
James

Hi James,

You play the set as how it is popular in Taiwan. Looks good! I learned this version from my Shifu's friend who trained with Xiao Peng in the early 80's. Looks like we'd have a good time training together sometime!

Mike

Sifu Darkfist

11-22-2005, 03:47 PM

Michael
The compliment is held in high regard coming from you and your lineage. I am only the product of a great teacher as well. I am sure we will meet one day the survival of good TCMA depends on all of us that love it to keep in contact.
James

monkeyfoot

12-05-2005, 01:22 PM

people could somebody tell me how you go about blocking the 5th move in bungbokuen - leg hanging stance pull apart (dont know chinese name)

cheers

craig

-N-

12-05-2005, 02:00 PM

We shift back and use a left hanging hand.

N.

monkeyfoot

12-06-2005, 03:29 AM

Sifu Darkfist

12-06-2005, 05:35 AM

I would clench my teeth shift head down and hit the belt line while snapping into seven star. The drop of the head back and down would lessen the impact and the attacker would drop o the floor in a hurry.

-N-

12-06-2005, 10:42 AM

I was thinking a simular thing, although how does one shift back once their attacking punch has been grappled and you are being pulled towards the fist and the knee.

You only have 1 free hand so you have to either take the arm of the leg.

craig
Punch from the single leg stance can be considered a flying knee attack with grapple punch combination. You can shift back because he is flying in towards you. The shift gives you an extra split second and some working room to counter. To counter, you cannot wait for the person to full on grab you and pull. You have to leak out of the grab and interrupt his attack as he starts, not when he's about to nail you. This would be the classical response with regard to distance and timing based on our version of Bung Bo.

The example I gave is from our 2 person Bung Bo. You can counter in other ways, as well.

N.