View Full Version : Legend of Dong Hai Chuan vs Yang Lu Chan
the legend said that:
One day, a king asked them to fight in the backyard.
Dong walked in a circle around Yang. Yang stayed put in the center and prepared.
Nothing happened. After 10 min, the king got bored and said that ok you both are excused.
So they went to the front yard and had a tea party.
Yang held a sparrow in his palm. No matter how hard the bird tried. It could not fly away. Eventually, Yang gently stretched the palm and off flied the sparrow.
They both laughed.
Dong said that I practiced Ba Gua circle or ring and you practiced Tai Chi Ball.
We did not know that if the circle trapped the ball or the ball trapped the circle/ring.
Both laughed.
end of anedote.
what do you think?
:D
fiercest tiger
11-12-2005, 10:24 PM
Ridiculous stuff, they are Martial artist and should of at least had a go. Too much Ettiquette in CMA and niceness, this why most CMA cannot fight thinking that DAO is a no combative meaning and just harmony.
Why didnt they start from push hands if they were so scared clash each other, both these guys are skilled internal stylist and train sensitivity so they should have at least tried something.
Every "martial artist" needs to test themselves one way or another if NOT they should not say they do martial arts and call ther system a health or healing system and never try and teach fighting if they dont train like a MARTIAL MAN.
Thats my 2 cents worth, these old stories really **** me off and the funny thing is almost every system has a story or there grandmaster doing this and that but half these stories i believe are just students blowing them up to make there master look good.
Anyway hahaha crazy
FT :)
They might have exchanged hands and rematched.
the story was meant to tell something.
1. The will or intent Yi before anything else. during the 10 min, there was a contest of will/intent.
2. Yang used a sparrow to indicate how he would deal with any physical force with yielding, redirecting or guiding into emptiness etc as if there is a Tai Chi in his palm. His slightly stretching of his palm "helped" the sparrow to fly off. He borrowed the bird's force and used against it.
3. Dong said he was thinking about the steps in the Ba Gua circle, the waist and the wrist/palm in Ba Gua ring/circle to "trap" or fishnet the Tai Chi ball/moves.
We would never know who is trapping who.
etc etc.
:D
fiercest tiger
11-13-2005, 07:15 AM
How hard is it to hold a bird in your hand dude? Open the hand and it will fly away no big deal there!!:)
I know there is a story behind it but again, nice but no use because they never fought to see who was better. One held a bird and the other didnt! The other was thinking about walking a circle...okay and that makes them great fighters?
See i myself rather see them fight rather then talk about it, you know what i mean? Doesnt really say they have skill at all only says they know theories....and that doesnt count really in my book.
Nice story all the same
FT:)
Ou Ji
11-13-2005, 07:31 AM
How hard is it to hold a bird in your hand dude? Open the hand and it will fly away no big deal there!!:)
You aren't understanding how he held the bird. Holding in an open hand and not giving the bird a solid platform to launch.
This was portrayed by Jack Wu in Tai Chi Master (I think).
fiercest tiger
11-13-2005, 08:16 AM
What has that still got to do with fighting? I definetly see where this is going im just saying it doesnt show there fighting ability. Stop getting caught up in the Mysterious stories and see reality!
imperialtaichi
11-13-2005, 08:12 PM
According to my source:
1. It was a Qing Emperor. The exact name I should know.... but I could not think of it.
2. It was Dong Hai Chuan vs. Yang Jian Hou, and not YLC
3. It was over a job: DHC was already working for Prince Bolin at the time, but YJH wanted the job
4. They fought, but with surroundings covered with white cloth so no outsider cound see who won and who lost to save face for the loser. Only the royal family and some high officials were allowed to watch.
5. They fought, as both party didn't really like each other
6. One basically kicked the other one's ass, BIG TIME. I am not going to say who won here, and what moves they used. I do not want to be disrespectful to any perticular style of martial arts. (The white fabric thing)
7. Both ended up being employed by the Prince, but they continued hating each other.
They were both real fighters, not some esoteric show-men who settled scores by walking around each other and playing with birds.
I didn't hear this story through some 3rd party person, but passed down directly through YJH to Wang Yong Chuen to Wei Shu Ren to me.
Cheers,
John
fiercest tiger
11-13-2005, 08:45 PM
John,
Thanks dude, see stories if birds and circles dont mean anything but a cover cause on got a beat down. With your proof from your elders at least u have a fictionous fight.
You must tell, who won? Dont hold out now brother!!! I dont think its disrespectful that you you say who won, its history and things like this need to be open and talked about. **** you and the suspence...hehehe its killing meeeee!
:)
Garry
Samurai Jack
11-14-2005, 04:11 AM
Well, the story's passed down from Yang. Guess who says he won?
;)
Ray Pina
11-14-2005, 07:45 AM
My Ba Gua desends from Tung Hai Chuan three generations ---> Kung Po Tien ---> Wong TSan Fei ----> David Bond Chan. My master can kill from push hands. No hurt you bad, kill you, if that was his intent. He doesn't stick and go back and forth. He throws an elbow into your rib cage or chest and his hands are on your neck at the same time.
Two fighters of this caliber, would know what they needed to know... would know the other is highly skilled and that's enough. Once engaged, the training takes over, not the ego, and someone would get seriously hurt.
Fiercest Tiger, believe me, I'm all for testing. But there is a time and place, and two men of their reputations did the right thing.
Meanwhile, how many of your classmates regularly engage in barefisted challenges matches? Do you consider them martial artists?
It's very easy to demand violence when one is not personally involved.
fiercest tiger
11-14-2005, 04:49 PM
Hi Ray,
Sorry dude but its like this with me, you can talk and talk but untill i see you fight i will judge upon that. Stories dont impress me at all!
Anyone can play push hands and then not play and throw elbows etc so what.
Martial arts has different meanings to me, one is yeah they should of at least had some fights be it ring and on the street. As well know there art and an artist!
Not purley fighting!!
As form my students some have had more then 20-30 boxing amature, i had a student that fought i kung fu tourney with succsess. Some of them in have told me they had a few fights in bar and street for some unknown reason.
I have fought kickboxing and kung fu full contact , worked on doors of clubs, hospital security at one of the worst hospitals in sydney that you need to use your skills. I dont class myself as a ultimate fighter i know that death can happen within a second so i respect life. If i have to fight i will but i choose not too for testing my hand as i spar and i do roll and that is enough.
If i was in N.Y i would spar you with gloves i have no shame to loose its all about learning and developing your skill. I think you need to fight wth gloves and without in order to know what its like to be in any situation.
FT
fiercest tiger
11-14-2005, 06:02 PM
I might add, that not all the martial arts is about fighting but just a part of it. If you are going to teach fighting as part of your art at least know your game on what you are teaching. You dont have to be a champion in contest or anything like that but understand and train your system in a realist or try to be as realistic as possible.
So people dont take my words the wrong way as afighting art only u wanna know something of you are going to teach.
FT
onyomi
11-14-2005, 08:36 PM
The story I heard was that Prince Su, Dong Haichuan's employer, asked Yang Luchan to fight his "miraculous eunuch" as a final test of his "invincible" skills. This fight supposedly ended in a draw... though it could have been just for the two to save face that they fought to a draw... all that stuff about white curtains is silly. The fight would have been held in one of the imperial palaces where the public was not allowed anyway.
Also, just speaking from a chronological point of view, it makes more sense for it to have been Luchan vs. Haichuan as opposed to Jianhou vs. Haichuan. Yang and Dong were contemporaries (1799-1872 and 1797-1882 respectively), whereas Jianhou would have been at least forty years younger than Dong (1839-1917). Let's assume that Jianhou would have had to have been at least 20 before he was strong enough and old enough to be challenging other fighters (probably older)... at this point Dong would have been at least 62 or older... a 20-30 yr. old vs. a 60-70 yr. old doesn't sound like a very fair fight to me, no matter how much your finesse and technique allow you to overcome superior strength.
fiercest tiger
11-14-2005, 08:54 PM
Told you to many stories and no one really knows!! Most yang people will say they won and the other way around. EGO is a biatch!
imperialtaichi
11-15-2005, 05:24 AM
all that stuff about white curtains is silly. The fight would have been held in one of the imperial palaces where the public was not allowed anyway.
Also, just speaking from a chronological point of view, it makes more sense for it to have been Luchan vs. Haichuan as opposed to Jianhou vs. Haichuan.
The white curtains weren't silly; even though in the palace, there will be guards of lower ranks around. It would be not be wise for them to witness who won or who lost.
As from a chronological point of view, I do take you point. I will be seeing my teacher in Beijing mid December. I will confirm with him the story.
As for who won.... of course from our Yang line the story would be rather biased :o . Since there were not written records made, so I can imagine different lines from different styles will say different things. I just listen to stories and repeat them. There is no way to verify them.
Therefore, I would like to remain neutral. Afterall, both arts are great arts, and both DHC and YLC (or YJH) were top fighters at the time and we should acknowledge their achievements.
Cheers,
John
fiercest tiger
11-15-2005, 06:09 AM
hahahha Too bad there was no Bird flu otherwise they would both be ****ed up!! hahaha LOL and the white sheet was for there death beds.
hahaha
FT
Sorry guys had to use that!:)
onyomi
11-15-2005, 11:51 AM
I agree that there's no reason to use a story as evidence for one art being superior to another as they are both powerful, complex styles.
Also, according to your version of events, several members of the royal family witnessed one style get "owned" by the other. If this were the case then I would say it would have been more likely to have been Bagua "owning" Taiji rather than the other way around. Why? Because Yin Fu, Dong Hai Chuan's premier student, was hired as head bodyguard for the Guangxu Emperor and the Empress Dowager (the real ruler) in 1900... several years after the deaths of Dong and YLC. If the royal family had really seen Bagua get taken apart by Taiji then why would they have hired a Bagua master and his students to protect the safety of its highest-ranking members?
imperialtaichi
11-16-2005, 08:07 PM
Yeah, when the Emporer the Yang family was serving passed away, they lost their job and became quite down and out. It is quite common in Chinese history that when a new Emporer takes the thrown, a lot of the old ministers would be fired to create positions for the new Emporer's "inner circle" to take their posts. Some of them may even get executed!
When YJH lost his job, his family ended up staying with the palace gardener Wang Song Lu as "guests" for a number of years.
Cheers,
John
Yes. Chinese politics and history were always shrouded in clouds or mists.
Some said emperor Guang Xu was "poisoned" by Ci Xi Tai Hou.
He passed away young a day before Ci Xi.
The two crashed over the reforms or New Deals in so many ways. He proposed to use the New party Kang You Wei to restructure the whole political systems. All those in power opposed to any changes.
However, Bei Yang minister Li Hong Zhang and associate in the south Zhang Zhi Dong managed to implement some modernizations under the old way/system.
Qing was left with the 3 year old Pu Yi.
All the power went to Yuan Shi Kai.
Republican revolution was on the way by Dr. Sun Yat Sen.
http://www.cdot.org/links/emperor_pu_yi.htm
http://www.jilin.gov.cn/whg/py-en.htm
----
http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/baguatjq.html
It was said that Yang Lu Chan, Dong and Guo Yun Shen worked together.
Ba Gua Tai Chi fist was created.
:)
scholar
11-19-2005, 07:32 AM
Yeah, when the Emporer the Yang family was serving passed away, they lost their job and became quite down and out. It is quite common in Chinese history that when a new Emporer takes the thrown, a lot of the old ministers would be fired to create positions for the new Emporer's "inner circle" to take their posts. Some of them may even get executed!
When YJH lost his job, his family ended up staying with the palace gardener Wang Song Lu as "guests" for a number of years.
Cheers,
John
The version of the story that is told by the Wu family (through Yang Pan-hou) was that the fight was fierce but that Dong was able to keep up for the most part. They say Yang was impressed that anyone could keep up at all and that was the end of it, they both worked together from then on.
After 1870, the Yangs retired from Imperial service (for whatever reason) and started teaching privately (as did Wu Ch'uan-yu). By 1914, Yang Shoa-hou, Yang Ch'eng-fu, Wu Chien-ch'uan and Sun Lu-t'ang were all teaching out of the same school.
Stories become embellished, half-forgotten and combined over the years (the bird in the hand was a separate story, originally), so who knows? In court they'd say that, evidentially, none of the principals are still alive so none of it stands up to close scrutiny. If you believe your teachers are good, train what they give you and don't pay too much attention to a load of gossip about 150 year old stories.
imperialtaichi
11-19-2005, 06:52 PM
If you believe your teachers are good, train what they give you and don't pay too much attention to a load of gossip about 150 year old stories.
Precisely. The stories serve only as "side dishes" to make things a bit more fun and colourful and give us a sense of history. Unless the stories give us insight into particular training/expression methods it is quite uneccessary to pay too much importance on it.
It is even less important to pay too much attention on who won, who lost, who is better etc. It is more important that we are working towards our goals (although this goal may be different for everyone). Be it Tai Chi, Bagua, Wing Chun or Sumo.
Cheers,
John
Francesco
02-21-2006, 09:09 AM
The white curtains weren't silly; even though in the palace, there will be guards of lower ranks around. It would be not be wise for them to witness who won or who lost.
As from a chronological point of view, I do take you point. I will be seeing my teacher in Beijing mid December. I will confirm with him the story.
As for who won.... of course from our Yang line the story would be rather biased :o . Since there were not written records made, so I can imagine different lines from different styles will say different things. I just listen to stories and repeat them. There is no way to verify them.
Therefore, I would like to remain neutral. Afterall, both arts are great arts, and both DHC and YLC (or YJH) were top fighters at the time and we should acknowledge their achievements.
Cheers,
John
Hello John,
From another thread you posted, I found out that you have seen your teacher in Beijing. Since I found the story quite interesting, I wonder if you have been able to confirm the story with your sifu?
Thanks for your reply,
Francesco
By 1914, Yang Shoa-hou, Yang Ch'eng-fu, Wu Chien-ch'uan and Sun Lu-t'ang were all teaching out of the same school.
Yes, at about that time my Sifu's sifu, Lee Wing Wah, studied under Yang Shao-hou and his father Yang Chien-hou learning their Yang Imperial, as well as Sun Lu-tang for his Bagua and Xingyi. I can only imagine how cool it must have been to train at that time.
lag2ma
02-21-2006, 11:22 PM
the legend said that:
One day, a king asked them to fight in the backyard.
Dong walked in a circle around Yang. Yang stayed put in the center and prepared.
Nothing happened. After 10 min, the king got bored and said that ok you both are excused.
So they went to the front yard and had a tea party.
Yang held a sparrow in his palm. No matter how hard the bird tried. It could not fly away. Eventually, Yang gently stretched the palm and off flied the sparrow.
They both laughed.
Dong said that I practiced Ba Gua circle or ring and you practiced Tai Chi Ball.
We did not know that if the circle trapped the ball or the ball trapped the circle/ring.
Both laughed.
end of anedote.
what do you think?
:D
i think they were both chicken
Ray Pina
02-22-2006, 08:08 AM
As soon as you say Greatgrand master Dong "walked around" the guy, I know it's A) not a true story ..... and B) whoever perpetrated the story does not know Ba Gua. It's impossible to walk around even a remotely skilled fighter. What, the other guy can't turn?
Turning the other guy so you get behind him, that's another story.
doug maverick
02-22-2006, 12:30 PM
I Was Always Under The Impression That That Story Was Untrue. Just The Story Of Dong Hai Chun And Gou Yun Shin. Just Something Made Up. Its Like The Silly Thing People Do Now(if Steven Segal And Jet Li Were Locked In A Room Who Would Win) Crap Like That Means Nothing. If I Ever Asked My Sifu About Stories Like That He Would've Told Me Crap Like That Is Not Going To Help You Become Better So It Is Useless.................
This is a story circulating in several Chinese forums. I found interesting so I posted here.
I think there are several significances implied by the person or persons who started it.
On technical points:
1. Ba Gua is to walk like pushing a mill or Tui Mo. Tai Chi is to yield all the way, borrow the force and use the force as implied by the bird in the hand.
On political points:
1. the focus is on the latter part of the story. they both sat down and started to discuss.
2. the students would study and "merge" the 2 styles, since the 2 teachers did.
3. then people started to argue which to name the new "combined" style, Ba Gua Tai Chi, or Tai Chi Ba Gua--
--
4. the important aspect of the story is that we have the attributes of being humble or humility. we have to be humble first before we may start to learn from each other.
the circle trapping the ball or the ball trapping the circle?
:D ;)
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