8 Step's Advanced Ground Mantis Set

[commoner]

I have found that this forum discussed many topics on 8 Step whether is techniques, history, or legitimancy. This has sparked my interest to included 8 step mantis into part my of research.

During my research I came across an article from Karate/Kung Fu Illustrated that talked about Master James Sun’s Eight Step Praying Mantis footwork. It’s a great article on the 8 long and short foot steps. But what peak my interest is the ground mantis form. As I mentioned previously in a different post, I have heard it from a friend of mine. I also read a rumor in the past post of this site that one of Shyun's former student was taught either part of the ground mantis set or just technique.

From what I have read from other posts on different boards, Chiang Hua Long did not have the ground mantis form. It was mentioned that Wei Hsiao Tang could have created the set from his prior knowledge of ground fighting. Aside from Master James Sun, none from Grandmaster Wei’s other student talked about the ground mantis form.

Can anybody elaborate further on the techniques of this advanced ground mantis form? Did any of Grandmaster Wei's other student learned the ground mantis set? Did Master James sun passed it on to any of his senior students that the public is aware? Did Shyun do a public demonstration of the set or at least part of the set?

If you can provide historical facts, please also provide the reference to where the facts were obtain. This will be great help to my research.

Respectfully,

[libingshao]

commoner,

It is a matter of common knowledge among Meihua Tanglangquan practitioners that, though Jiang Hualong did not create a ground boxing form, Song Zide (mid 1800s-early 1900s), Jiang Hualong's kungfu brother, created a seventh Zhaiyao that was a combination of Tanglangquan and ground boxing. It is quite rare but did exist before Wei Xiaotang (1901-1984) began teaching Tanglangquan.

Not exactly what you were asking but your appeal for accuracy in sourcing material made me think you would want this information.

Libingshao

[18elders]

started to learn a ground fighting set, will ask my shrfu where it came from

[commoner]

Libingshao,

Thanks for your historical insight. Yes, you are right. Your information is very useful and I will note it for possible future research on the mantis kung fu styles.

[commoner]

Check out the picture of this ground mantis I found on the Internet. Maybe this species of praying mantis had an inspiration with the development of 8 Step's ground fighting mantis. This mantis's low position looks like it can skillfully attack an opponent from below. :)

Description:

The Ground Mantis is a member of the family Mantidae. These slender insects, 5/8-5 7/8" (15-150 mm) long, have a mobile triangular head, prominent compound eyes, and threadlike antennae. The elongated fore legs are adapted for grasping and holding prey. Long, slender middle and hind legs are used for walking, standing, and leaping.

http://www.enature.com/fieldguides/detail.asp?shapeID=1018&curGroupID=4&lgfromWhere=&curPageNum=1

[EarthDragon]

commoner, You ask a serious question but then post a picture of a mantis and joke that makes most people question your sincerity.

Are you truley interested or just having fun? in any event.

The ground fighting techniques are taught to be used when be forced to fight from a fallen position. They include dropping down and getting underneath your opponents legs as well as springing up when attacked low. I was told the low applications look much the insect itself and uses bobbing and weaving side to side to confuse your opponent then attacks when they are confused. It is not to be confused with actual ground fighting, JJ, Wrestling or anything of that nature. and far from complete. But rather being able to not be rendered helpless if you fall or find yourself on the wrong side of a throw.

It's like ba duan, it gives you a escape and a last chance if you get into a situaiton where you might lose. With mantis being a complete system it would need every type of fighting scenario to be covered.

With that beign said. when living with james shyung he showed us only one technique of this low mantis. To get under a low center and attack the huYin point.
However he did teach Joel syutton the most out of anyone seeing as how Joel was the only one in the 8 step system who wanted to take our federation into the UFC and make a name for James Shyun and his 8 step. however Joel still needed to cross train with judo, wrestling, BJJ and other mat skills. I dont think the low mantis is enough of a defense but more a last resort to defend when you wind up on the ground.

Whether or not this was made up I dont know. was it taught to Shyun by Wei privatley? I dont know.
Did shyun make it up? I dont know.

will he ever show anyone again? i dont know
does anyone else in the ACMAF know it or have been shown? I doubt it.

the ACMAF is full of a new breed of shrfu's who have paid exuberants amounts of money to learn what they have and the system has been so watered down and filled with so much filler it is beyond sadneing.
the new generation of teachers dont know the real 8 step Wei's fighting abilities and formulas or how to fight or even use thier knowledge in actual combat. it looks flashy and is filled to the brim with techniques and made up things like the kicking combinations and various other things but is lacking the core of all kung fu..........................true combat fighting application!

[Ou Ji]

Question - Why would a ground fighting set be considered 'advanced'?

Or are there beginner and intermediate groundfighting sets?


Also, try to visualize a BJJ grappling set. That just has to look funny as hell. :p

[commoner]

ED,

Yes, I am serious about gaining historical knowledge on the ground mantis form. The picture of the ground mantis was more intended for educational purpose than humorous. I only made the humorous remark to make it interesting. If it offended any mantis practioner, I apologized.

As I research deeper into the mantis system, I also looked at the mantis insect (different species) which was the source of the inspiration for the creation of this effective martial art.

Thanks for your response on the post.

Respectfully,

:)

[EarthDragon]

Ouji, Good question. my only explianation would be that shyun is very particular on teaching things outside his filled cirriculum. He holds everthing that is not openly taught in his public outline as advanced.

For years he told us master Wei taught him no weapons forms. But low and behold now he has added weapons forms to his teachings. at one time he taught them as advanced. and made you feel you had to earn his knowledge and it was not given away. when questions arose after his quick deomonstration his replies were always "later later" meaning he did not want to show you or the you the correct way. well after 11 years I had enough of the answer later later. so did 11 of his other long time senior students.

I hope this answers your question. He holds onto his system and information like it is gold. this greed led him to fall prey to all the ridicule and resentment from every other 8 stepper in the us and abroad. this is very unfortunate and sad to say, but he brought this upon himself. wouldnt you be interested in learning the true 8 step from the one and only inheritor from Wei Xiao Tung?

[Ou Ji]

So in this case it looks like scarce = advanced.

I'm always leary of Sifus that pull out stuff years later claiming it to be original when there's no way to verify.

Once a Master is gone it's easy for any student to claim secret teaching. Fraud is just too easy in this business.

[Forkintheroad]

Fraud is just too easy in this business.

Yes it is,

I asked one of Master Chang's top students a question about traditional 8 step and ground fighting a little wile back. Now mind you he has also asked his instructor (Master Chang), as well as Master Chen in Tawain, and Master Wu in Texas, and sure enough all three of them gave him the same answer he gave me. There is no ground fighting form in traditional 8 step. There are techniques that prevent getting taken to the ground, and he himself couldn't take any of the three masters to the ground, but there is no actual ground form. If you want ground fighting techniques, you have to look elsewhere, or not get taken to the ground. As for Shyun's 8's although there not traditional, it doesn't mean there not effective for ground fighting. So in that respect, he may have strengthened the one incomplete aspect of Ba Bu.

[Ou Ji]

Part of the problem seems to be that nobody wants to admit to creating sets for some reason. I really don't understand that mindset. Forms are not the last word on a style but unfortunately they are tied too closely to legitimacy.

You really don't need ANY traditional sets to be legitimate. If you know the moves and understand the principles you can make up your own sets and drills.

Although look at the crap most guys get when they say they are making up sets or starting their own style, or branch style.

Chinese ground fighting is totally different than grappling. I have groundfighting in some of the sets I've learned and they consist of how to remain standing and how to get back up if thrown plus how to attack from the ground.

[mantid1]

Earth Dragon

If I were you I would leave the 8 step and shuyn behind me. You left the system now let it go. You seem to be very neurotic about the whole thing. Let the new guys figure things out for themselves. They will not listen to someone over the net anyway.

I have seen your post that your roomate is a qigong master. You should set down with this person and learn some qigong philosphy and techniques. It will help.

I am not attacking you. You seem like a good guy. In fact if I ever get back up to the big water I would like to meet you.

You just need to make peace brother. This issue is stealing precious moments of your life.

Have a good day

[commoner]

I would like to express my gratitude to all who have contributed their insights. Your insights are valuable to my research. Too bad I could not get any insights from Master Shyun's side. Their information would have given me a deeper insight to my research.

With Great Respect,

:)

[htowndragon]

In fact, I was classmates with his daughter when I was still in Houston (at Bellaire High).

I have seen his 8 step, and when i was in 3rd grade or so I learned some kung fu basics from him in chinese school in chinatown before learning long fist from his long fist brother master george hu. his movements seem a lot "tighter" than shyuns, which i hear a lot of people say looks like 7 star?

[EarthDragon]

mantid1,
thank you for your kind words brother. I know I should let go. I have tried to turn the other cheek several times. I find that many people are interested in shyun and 8 step and I try to set the record straight (personal point of view included) especially in threads such as this that direct questions are asked of 8 step.

This board for me is informational as well as a great avenue to pass time during work. LOL "sorry boss" but it can also be a gateway of contorversy. And I will admitt that I take part in it. However I will always first and foremost try to educate, elaborate and lend advice to those who are seeking it. I guess it is the teacher in me but it's true my bitterness comes out in certain posts. and to those I apologize but I am entitled to my opionon and I am only human and have much to learn about enlightnement and humbleness.

[old8step]

Yes there is an 8 step ground set do any of the new sifu's from the sifu program know it I highly doubt it. Dean should know it or did know it at one time. I've seen my dai low michael go through ground mantis steps numerous times. and for anyone that trained with master sun personally and wish to know how i know what I know I am from Irving St. I also taught classes at 1405 Noriega. I helped come up with the name kung fu usa.

[ChaoticMantis]

Hi old8step,

It’s very nice to meet you. What is your dai low Michael's last name? I am only familiar with 2 Michael (crazy Mike(don’t remember last name) and Michael James) which these 2 left before the Noriega school. I will verify with Master James Sun as to who learned the ground mantis set. Hopefully I should have an answer within about 2 weeks.

If you seen the ground mantis set a few times, you should be able to describe the first 5 movements of the set. I can describe the next 5 movements of the set.

If you prefer we can discuss this in private. I am curious as to how many of his students learned this set. I think this ground mantis set is an awesome set. This set is very strenuous and if you can master this set, you are in excellent shape.

If you helped him come up with the name kung fu usa, you probably is a very old timer. You also should know he patented “Kung Fu USA” along with his 8 Step Mantis logo. Do you happen to know what year he registered the patent? By the way, I have a copy of his patent.

Also you probably can name at least 5 of his closest students from the early days.

I apologized for the test, but I am just very curious. If we both give enough info, we probably should know each other.

:)

[old8step]

chaotic mantis glad to hear from you perhaps we do know each other the michael I speak of is chinese michael. one of his oldest students who left for another mantis system was mark he left to train with Henry Poo Yee is the one on the cover qui gong magazine do you remember sean? Kung Fu Usa was a concept that came up while the school was located at 1405 Noriega it came before the colored sash system when the belt levels we defined with gold Mantis's . If you don't mind I would like to ask you a question perhaps you can answer so I may also verify first what rank was sifu's father in the army. What does KMT stand for, and what was the color and model of the first Mercedes Sifu got when he still lived in San Francisco. I ask these questions as they are more personal and can help verify those who were close to him in the old days. What was the issue with Adam Hsu?

Question for Sifu Haley:
Do you know Jim he was a studen't of Dean's in Buffalo who trained with Sifu when he was stationed in the bay area. this was early 90's 91-93 approx.

[old8step]

chaotic mantis glad to hear from you perhaps we do know each other the michael I speak of is chinese michael. one of his oldest students who left for another mantis system was mark he left to train with Henry Poo Yee is the one on the cover qui gong magazine do you remember sean? Kung Fu Usa was a concept that came up while the school was located at 1405 Noriega it came before the colored sash system when the belt levels we defined with gold Mantis's . If you don't mind I would like to ask you a question perhaps you can answer so I may also verify first what rank was sifu's father in the army. What does KMT stand for, and what was the color and model of the first Mercedes Sifu got when he still lived in San Francisco. I ask these questions as they are more personal and can help verify those who were close to him in the old days. What was the issue with Adam Hsu?

Question for Sifu Haley:
Do you know Jim he was a studen't of Dean's in Buffalo who trained with Sifu when he was stationed in the bay area. this was early 90's 91-93 approx.

[ChaoticMantis]

I don't think I know the chinese michael. Yes, I remember sean, but that is not his actual name. His name kamar Shadan(don't remember the exact spelling of last name). But he owned a cheese shop on irving street and a very good friend of mine. Actually the cheese shop was for his mom after his dad past away, but he took over when she started getting occupied with other things. I don't know his father's rank in the army because I never inquired about it. I don't know about sifu's first Mercedes because he probably brought it after I left SF, but his first new car was a Cutless Sierarra (gray) and even recorded the license plate.

KMT stands for Kuomintang (weak question). Kung Fu USA did not started in Noriega, it goes back to the Irving St. years. You should know about his old student grade level booklet he had for each of his sifu students. The booklet has Kung Fu USA on it.

I don't know the issues with Adam Hsu but he was part of the co founders of American Chinese Martial Federation. Who where the other co founders?

Mostly likely I don't you. If you know me you should also know Andy G., Robert B., Fu brothers, Crazy Michael, Christina K. and others from the early days.

;)

[ChaoticMantis]

Old8Step,

BTW you didn't answer my questions about the low mantis. If you seen it a few times you should remember the the beginning movements. Let me start it off for you and please continue. I can also explain the usage.

1. Mantis Stance
2. Low Mantis Stance
3. double mantis strike
4. Low Mantis Stance


;)

[ChaoticMantis]

Here is a scanned copy of a copy of the US patent trademark of "Kung Fu USA". I have block off some data that should not be seen by the public. I think anybody can verify this patent through the US Patent Office.

If you look at the registered date (April 14, 1987), you will know that it is before the 1405 Noriega school. In 1987 the school was still at Irving St.


:)


To All - I apologized to all for going off tracked.

[old8step]

chaotic what year did you leave? do you know young Danny he was no more than 17 at the time of traing. Andy and Shawn(sorry I realize that is not his real name but that is how I was introduced to him) both know michael well. I see by your post that you speak to sifu. I will tell you a story from the early 90's that you may verify with Sifu and the details would only be known to people who were there at that time. I believe this was 1992 forgive me if I am a year off as it has been over a decade. Sifu was invited to do a demonstration by the ATF if I remember correctly (could of been FBI) but when we went to do the demonstration Sifu had to perform in his suit instead of his uniform as it had been forgotten at the studio. There is a reason he told the group we demonstrated in front of why he was in street clothes and not his uniform instead of telling them that we forgot to bring it. You may ask sifu what he told them. and then I will tell you what he said with out you telling me. Feel free to PM me as it seems that we have crossed paths with many of the same people around the same time frame and I feel comfortable you are not one of the people on here wishing to speak bad about sifu as I have seen many people do.

[ChaoticMantis]

I am most certain I was before your time. The Andy I am talking about is not Andy Miles which I am thinking is the person your are referring to, but the full name Andy Glover which was also one of the few close students of James Sun from the very early days. I left SF in 1992.

I don't know young Danny as it was probably after my time.

I am not concern about certain events, but curious about who else knows the low mantis form.

But getting back to the ground mantis set. Can you describe a few early movement of the set that you seen done? I am very curious to know if you saw the correct low mantis form.


:)

[old8step]

Chaotic also I am not one to admit a mistake as you've have shown Sifu did indeed patent the name Kung Fu Usa. before Noriega but to the best of my recollection none of the schools were named Kung Fu USA until the Noriega School and before he took out the first yellow page advertisement he asked myself michael jim danny kevin (not loftus) many times what we thought of the name. So that is why I said that I helped come up with the name due to the fact he wanted all of our opinions on the name before he started advertising it as such. But I am not here to argue with you as it is clear that you are an old time student of sifu even older than me. and I am also not trying to claim to be an expert a disciple or anything else for that matter I am just a person who trained with Sifu for a good amount of time many years ago and considered him and my kung fu brothers as family we trained together ate together and helped each other out I was close enough that I had a key to the school and would train when he was not there.. I will honestly tell you that I personally was not taught the ground mantis set. Did i see ground mantis steps performed during my time at the school Yes I did. did I see them taught in class no. As i said feel free to ask Sifu about Michael Jim or any of the stories I have brought up I'm sure he will verify them. As for the ground mantis please send me a pm and I will describe what I remember between us

[ChaoticMantis]

This was never intended to be an arguement of any sort. If it seems so I apologized. I was just very curious if you were from the real old days and that I might possibly know you.

I am just curious about other students of James Sun and what they know. I am here to share more about the 8 Step system and to let others know that James Sun do in fact teach the authentic 8 Step from was past down by the late GM Wei.

Let's all continue to contribute what we know or wish to inquire about the 8 Step system. I am on this forum to help evangelize the 8 Step Preying Mantis system that Master James Sun teaches.


:)

[old8step]

please clarify left san francisco in 1992 or left training in 1992 because if you left training in 1992 I am sure that you must know michael and me because we were both teaching children's classes at that time. and michael was training with sifu I believe at least at early as 1990 or earlier. No i did not take anything you said as an argument being that we are both students of sifu and i have seen so many people talk bad of him on this forum i wanted to make it clear to anyone reading that we agreed on certain historical facts. I am actually glad to find someone who knows sifu from the times when i was around as i have lost contact with everyone from my time and with you leaving in 92 it appears our training times overlapped maybe we have met? I as you have always firmly backed the fact that Sifu was the inheritior of the system and wish to dispel any myths about him that exist on this forum.

[ChaoticMantis]

I left SF in latter part of 92. I attended the public classes only at Irving St. and did not attend the public classes at Noriega. Sifu taught me outside of the public classes prior to the opening of the Noriega school. I was not able to attend the Noriega school due to the conflict of my schedule. I did visit the Noriega school whenever I had time which was mostly during the day.

I got a picture of your timeline with 8 Step. I am not going to inquire any further. Anyway enough of the history and let's move on with helping to promote 8 Step on this forum.

If you wish to send me a private message regarding the ground mantis it is ok. I don't really care to talk in private. I perfer to remain anonymous to the public for now. Sifu's active instructors who are on this foruim should know who I am by my location as he has informed some or all of his instructors about me.

I am currently working on translating some of the 8 Step materials from chinese to english. It is a tedious process and I will present it to sifu when I finished. I will discuss with him on how he want it to be utilize.

Later,

:)

[EarthDragon]

chaotic and old8step,
Wow its so good to hear from the old school students. If I may chime in. to some comments made and answer some questions.

old 8step. i do not remember Jim, is he form buffalo?. i have been in the system since 1989 but have known Dean since he left SF 1987 he left when the school was upstairs on irving.

I met Danny shyuns right hand man or should i say kid. he was kicked out of the school right before i moved to noriega st. i have also met robert the photgrapher that shot shyuns oldtime stances. of the originals which i still have in possesion. i rember hearing about kamar he used to wear a brown uniform right? i think its the same guy.

also shyuns mercedes was black.

it si so good to hear form you guys please post soem more info and perhaps clear up alot of confusion about that system.

PS who was the guy who married the mexican girl and lived in ensenada mexico after leaving the irving school? he moved fairly well I also met him when he stopped in to the noriega school.

[EarthDragon]

chaotic and old8step,
Wow its so good to hear from the old school students. If I may chime in. to some comments made and answer some questions.

old 8step. I do not remember Jim, is he from buffalo?. I have been in the system since 1989 but have known Dean since he left SF 1987 he left when the school was upstairs on irving.

I met Danny shyuns right hand man or should I say kid. he was kicked out of the school right before I moved to noriega st. I have also met robert the photgrapher that shot shyuns oldtime stances. of the originals which I still have in possesion. I rember hearing about kamar he used to wear a brown uniform right? I think its the same guy.

also shyuns mercedes was black.

it' s so good to hear form you guys please post some more info and perhaps clear up alot of confusion about the system.

PS who was the guy who married the mexican girl and lived in ensenada mexico after leaving the irving school? he moved fairly well I also met him when he stopped in to the noriega school. thanks in advance

[old8step]

earthdragon

yes Jim was originally from Buffalo where he trained under Dean when he was stationed out here in he was in the navy or airforce. He stayed at Sifu's house alot when he trained as his base was pretty far from the school.

Yes Danny was a kid a few years younger than I. I was gone before what happened with Danny happened. the Michael I speak of is the one who actually taught Danny most of his early mantis and is who I believe Danny used to demonstrate his techniques on for his 1st gold mantis. and yes the mercedes was black :)

Now i have read this forum but as both of you can tell I am not really up on what type of drama happend etc as I left many many years ago and actually what prompted me to research again was that i was driving down a st and saw an 8 step mantis school upon research it appears it is run by a Josh Stone? so i did a search on the net and up popped these forums.

I am happy to shed any light on whatever I can I can not comment on the things that happened I know nothing about. But from reading over some things it appears I am one of the few student's on here not including chaotic and yourself who was around at a time when 8 step was still a very close tight knot group. No offense to any of the new students or sifu's but I know during my time many days I was at the school 8 hours or more and would eat breakfeast lunch and dinner with sifu and my kung fu brothers so I feel that I do have some early insight to some things that might not have been brought to public etc.

[ChaoticMantis]

old8step & EarthDragon,

It seems both of you were more around the same period than I was. So you both might know each other.

old8step - I am assuming that you live in the bay area. Do you still keep in touch with Sifu? What year did you leave the school? If you live in the bay area, do you keep in touch with Dean?

Josh Stone must be Sifu's one of the biggest Internet contributing instructors if you can search him on the internet. Did you use google or yahoo? I don't recall him contributing to this forum. What alias is he using in this forum?


;)

[EarthDragon]

wow what a reunion! LOL again it is good to hear from the old school students.

I still talk to Dean all the time he is still one of my best friends. He acutally lives in the sunset not far from the old school on irving. And was accepted to lern form John Chang but only went to 3 private classes as he works in LA 3 weeks out of the month.

Josh Stone was first silver mantis when I lived at the noriega school but has since went on to become a shrfu and runs a school not far from the bay area in
El Cerito.

The falling out of the ACMAF was when Shyun started caring more about the money then the quality.
The school burned down and he shortyly then afterward got divorced right after having to pay for anthony and his daughters college.
So financial straights indeed. he then invented a shrfu program that made it mandatory for every school to enroll 5 studetns every year into this program to help widen and grow the system.
However it costs 5,000.00 per student that of course went to him not the school owner.
This put some some contrversy in the original old time students and school owners which at the time were all in NY with the ecception of jack in NJ, peter ray in AL and Keving loftus all deans students.

1 year later he made it mandatory to purchase a 14kt gold mantis pin that wasnt really 14kt gold but plated brass and a 400.00 uniform for all the instructors.

Shortly afterward the four of us quit the federation and moved on then a short time later he had 8 new schools and 8 shrfu's who were promoted in only 1 years time and can't fight thier way out of a paper bag.

It's shame really I loved my shrfu and spent many nights laughing, learning, and enjoying his teachings and company. But as they say money can make a person do strange things...... be well

[old8step]

chaotic yes i live in the bay area but have not had contact with any of sifu's old students for many years. I left in 1993 not due to any conflict but due to the fact i moved away for college in southern california but would frequently visit whenever i was up in the bay area as for Josh Stone I did not do a search on him i did a search on 8 step preying mantis on yahoo

Earth Dragon:

Who is John Chang that name is familar? A silver mantis? I am not familiar with that was that part of the new system? sifu's in one year time? are you sure? not to doubt you ofcourse because I was not around but I remember it taking some people 1 year just to get their first gold mantis and that was just punching and hands to even the kicks. I remember hearing that the school burned down and actually I didn't even know there were any 8 step schools in the bay area until recently.

Well great to hear from you all chaotic i got your pm and replied as always if any one has any questions i can answer on 8 step feel free to ask

[ChaoticMantis]

EarthDragon,

I know you heard this from many people in this forum. “Why are you still carrying on with the emotional baggage regarding Master James Sun?” I have read your life story many times over in various postings. You have been doing this for over 2 years now. Please “PLEASE” snap out it and focus on proliferating 8 Step or other martial arts. Sooner or later this bitterness will eat you from inside out and the sands of time are running out on you.

If you still have any love left for Sifu, leave it behind you just like what Dean is doing. Dean is keeping it quiet because he still has respect for Sifu. This why Master Sun’s respect for Dean has not changed and still gives him credit for helping to spread 8 Step.

To me Master James Sun was always the same teacher from when he started teaching up until now, but he grown much wiser throughout the years. I know he is not a perfect teacher, but then nobody is perfect. We can only strive for perfection which is a lifelong journey.

Please note the correction on your post. Sifu did not pay for his children’s education. It was actually his ex-wife that did the paying for their education. When both children left for college, she sold their house and used the money made on the sale to fund their college education.

Sifu is saving up his money for his dream “Mantis Mountain”. He doing outside investments and some of the money collected from the schools to make this dream happen. Within the next 10 years his dream will become reality. :)


Old8step,

How long did you study with Sifu and what years? Just out curiosity, you seem young by your dates “late 20’s early 30’s”. By your timeline, you probably know Sifu’s son quite well. Around late ’92 & early ’93 Anthony was often hanging around schools after his middle school let out and sometimes in the evenings depending whether he has finish his schoolworks. I encouraged him to starting learning more from his Dad. His kicks were starting to look like how Sifu kicks. At that time he was more into video games and other kid stuff. :)

[old8step]

you are correct i am in my thirties now i started training with Sifu when I was 18 and trained full time until I was 20 at which time i moved away to attend a university but i frequently trained during the next 2 years on my visits up 1-2 a month and would continue to practices my techniques and endruances etc while I was away

[ChaoticMantis]

Hey Old8step,

If you were training fulltime you should know Anthony. I am curious as to your recollection of the young master to be. Before I left his kicks were excellent for his age. He started to look like how Sifu would kick. He also pickup an impressive ground leg sweeping techniques. I wondered how he progressed throughout the years.

:)

[EarthDragon]

old8step, you said..................

Who is John Chang that name is familar? A silver mantis? I am not familiar with that was that part of the new system? sifu's in one year time? are you sure? not to doubt you ofcourse because I was not around but I remember it taking some people 1 year just to get their first gold mantis and that was just punching and hands to even the kicks. I remember hearing that the school burned down and actually I didn't even know there were any 8 step schools in the bay area until recently.


John Chang was one of master Wei's oldest students. Trained with him over 30 years and lives in San Jose'.

the new system has 4 sash colors, 5 silver levels, 5 gold, 5 shrfu, 5 master levels. So far only Dean has surpassed 5th gold.

Yes it used to take many years to get to the 1st grade but now with the selling out comercial version you can go from learning how to bow, horse stance and middle punch to joint locks and the 8 long and 8 short. Such a shame to water down such a great system for finacial gain. but that seems to be the way with many schoools and mcdojo these days. everybody wants the results but few are willing to put in the time. hel we have easy mac and cheese!!!!!!! could mac and cheese be any easier to make for pete's sake?

[ChaoticMantis]

EarthDragon,

Once again - "I know you heard this from many people in this forum. “Why are you still carrying on with the emotional baggage regarding Master James Sun?” I have read your life story many times over in various postings. You have been doing this for over 2 years now. Please “PLEASE” snap out it and focus on proliferating 8 Step or other martial arts. Sooner or later this bitterness will eat you from inside out and the sands of time are running out on you.

If you still have any more respect left for Sifu, leave it behind you just like what Dean is doing. Dean is keeping it quiet because he still has respect for Sifu. This is why Master Sun’s respect for Dean has not changed and still gives him credit for helping to spread 8 Step."

Mr. Haley Sir, everytime we hear the same story over and over again. It is getting all of us depress. Please for the sake of this forum move on and discuss Mantis related martial arts that will help and encourage all of us.

:)

[EarthDragon]

Chaoticmantis,
please speak for yourself when posting and try not to say "us" or "everyone" when you base a personal opionon. there are many people out here that would truley like to get to the bottom of the truth.

many things that were told to us by Shyun turned out to be a lie. there is no need for this and i am just trying to sift through what is truth and what is a lie. if you dont want to hear what i have to say by all means just dont read my posts. But i am entilited to my opinon and this is a public open forum and i am allowed to say what i feel as well as everyone else. Please dont take this a confrontational just a point of view. be well...........

[cha kuen]

does maser chang still teach in san jose? i am interested.....

[EarthDragon]

As far as I know he has a very closed door policy. He also frequnts Taiwan often and is sometimes not in the US for periods of time. he does have devoted higher level student in San Jose' for the life of me cant remember his name right now i am drawing a blank but his screen name is Lapu squared or something like that.. sorry i could not be of more help.

[lapu_squared]

EarthDragon: Thanks for the vote of confidence. But, to set the record straight, Bokfu is Shifu Chang's senior-most student.

[EarthDragon]

LOL sorry lapu, I was drawing a blank your right it is kenny.. AKA Bokfu

[Michael Dasargo]

does maser chang still teach in san jose? i am interested.....

Hey Peter,

I've actually met with Chang Shifu for the first time just a few months ago. He is very open and passionate about spreading the art of Ba Bu. I was excpecting to meet for dinner first to become personally acquainted, but Chang Shifu ended up inviting me to his home and we began training immediately!

He asked me to play a few sets so that he can identify my level of understanding, and from there Chang Shifu just poured out information! We covered body mechanics, stepping patterns, joint stregnth, flexibiity, and range of motion, history (Chang shared pictures and stories of the days of Wei), the 8 Throws of Babu, leaking methods, striking patterns, etc.

With all of this information, Chang Shifu remained completely open and humble. So open and trusting that he openly admits that he is not the best in Ba Bu. To say that to a complete stranger tells me that he continues to develop his skill and understanding to a standard beyond the common norm, while ensuring the integrity of the art as it is passed on.

Chang Shifu is unique in his position in that he does not allow his ability and status in the lineage to develop conceit, but rather he continues to develop skill and humility while openly sharing his knowledge and experience of Ba Bu tang Lang.

Chang Shifu is not online, however Lapu Lapu and/or Bokfu can get you in touch with him.


Best Regards,
M.Dasargo

[Three Harmonies]

Mike
I am interested in the 8 throws of Babu. It seems to me that someone along the way decided that their are 8 _________ (whatevers, fill in the blank) to the Babu system, so I am not understanding if these are quite literally 8 throws, or is it eight concepts on how to throw?
Could you shed some light on this for my ignorant ass? Any video/pic's you have demonstrating them would be awesome as well!!

Thanks
Jake :D

[mantid1]

Great question Jake.

I am interested in what the 8 throws are also.

[Michael Dasargo]

Jake/Mantid1,

I'm probably not the right person to ask, as Lapu Squared would be more qualified to answer specific details.

As for my poor understanding:

All principles and techniques can be played at 3 Heights (high, middle, and low frame) and 8 Directions (front, rear, left, right, front-right, front-left, rear-right, rear-left). 8 is commonly a number chosen as it is the lowest common denominator within the primary pattern of changes/possibilities in nature. So many people consolidate all ideas into 8 techniques, from which all other variations can be spawned.

In Babu, again with my poor understanding, there are litterally 8 throws that encapsulate the princple behind Ba Bu style throwing patterns from 8 different positions in relation to the opponent.

If you are familiar with throwing, than the primary emphasis that you'll find is that Ba Bu attacks the base of support while displacing the upper body (Enter Lower: scoop the leg and uproot the upper body), or vice versa (Enter Upper: Uproot the upper body and attacking/scooping the base of support/legs). The difference is where you draw the opponents attention.

Hope it makes sense,
Mike D.

[lulusweeps]

Hi I hope this helps. According to Master John Chang, the 8 throws are the applications to the 8 stances.

[Three Harmonies]

LLS
Elaboration?? Thanks.
Mike,
You basically described any kind of good throw! Do you know anymore? Thanks for the great topic!
Cheers
Jake :)

[lapu_squared]

As LLS mentioned, each of the 8 stances has a corresponding throw that uses that stance, typically ending the throw in the stance. One basic principle Shifu Chang teaches is that, when throwing an opponent, your body should end the throw in a solid, balanced stance. Once you're in the right position relative to the opponent, the simple act of moving into the solid, balanced stance causes the opponent to be thrown. Hence, the relationship between stances and throws.

[EarthDragon]

for those who are interested here are the 8 stances applications including the throws

HORSE
O. PUNCHES RIGHT
D. LEFT SIDE BLOCK , GRINDING MILL , GRAB ROOT , (SO BEI)

BOW
O. PUNCHES RIGHT
D. LEFT HIGH BLOCK , GRAB RIGHT SUN PUNCH
O. LEFT HIGH BLOCK
D. RIGHT MANTIS GRAB , LEFT HOOK
O. DUCKS
D. CHOP NECK , FRONT SWEEP ( TI )

TIGER
O. PUNCHES RIGHT
D. RIGHT MANTIS GRAB , LEFT SUN PUNCH
O.HIGH BLOCKS
D. GRAB BLOCK , RIGHT HAMMER FIST TO NECK FRONT SWEEP ( TI )

MANTIS
O. PUNCHES RIGHT
D. RIGHT MANTIS GRAB , LOCK ELBOW , PULL TO GROUND ( DIAO LUO )

CROSSING LEG
O. PUNCHES RIGHT
D. RIGHT SIDE BLOCK , LEFT MANTIS GRAB , RIGHT BACK FIST
O. HIGH BLOCKS
D. RIGHT GROIN STRIKE , GRAB ROOT , X-LEG , (SO BEI)

50/50
O. PUNCHES RIGHT
D. RIGHT MANTIS GRAB , PUNCH LEFT
O. HIGH BLOCKS
D. GRABS BLOCK , RIGHT PUNCH TO GRION ,UPPERCUT , (BUNG TIAO)

FALLING
O. PUNCHES RIGHT
D. RIGHT SIDE BLOCK , LEFT ELBOW GRAB , HOP INTO ( BA SHI )

SINGLE LEG
O. ATTEMPS BEAR HUG
D. DBL BLOCKS , BOX EARS, KNEE FACE L &R ELBOW ,THROW (MA BOU TI )