Tanglang Digong

[mantis108]

Here're some questions on the other thread which I think warrant it's own thread.


Question - Why would a ground fighting set be considered 'advanced'?

Ground fighting set shouldn't be considered "advanced" IMHO. In fact any fighting techniques shouldn't be consider advanced. The idea of rating the forms and sets is pretty much came from the Karate ranking system (mostly McDojo mentality). Frankly, it's not Kung Fu, period.

A lot of Kung Fu people around the 70s - 90s don't know about basics such as how to breakfall or rolling that they have come up with the crazy idea of all your forms and sets should train you to stay on your feet and just blast the other guy to oblivian. Stance training and more stance training, that's the fanatic chant of the era. The ground fighting stufff which are basically elementary and emergency measures in the good old day became "advanced" stuff. Since the 90s, it became the Ultimate FUBAR Cashcow - the real UFC of Chinese Kung Fu. ;) Look at Fujian Dog boxing or Wushu Ditang, it has become the faster rising stars since JKD.

So the short answer is advance Ground fighting is all about someone trying to sell you a Kung Fu fantasy IMHO.


Or are there beginner and intermediate groundfighting sets?

In CCK TCPM, we have 3 ground forms. The most difficult is the ground mantis. Not because it is technically hard but mostly because there are some gymnastic oriented move such as the forward hand flip, split, kip up, etc.

Do you need to do a perfect split to be able to ground fighting? Definitely not but it would be great to have the range of motion on the ground.

Do you need to do a perfect forward hand flip to ground fighting? No but it would be great attribute to have while "rolling" with someone.

So on and so forth. .. Does that make CCK TCPM Ditanglang (ground mantis) advanced just because it is difficult to do? I don't think so. It a matter of priority and focus in your training that makes something more important that the others.


Also, try to visualize a BJJ grappling set. That just has to look funny as hell. :p

The root of Judo and BJJ is Ju Jitsu. I have seen Ju Jitsu that has 2 men throwing forms/sets/routines. I can make a 2 men form that starts from stand up (striking and kicking) into clinch and then ground fighting (a la BJJ style) and get them standing back up and going back a forth. I can guarantee you that the "EXERCISE" will not be in the spirit of BJJ but it will contain the principle of it. But then you will ask me what's the point so... BTW, I have seen a Wing Chun ground fighting form (courtesy of a good friend from German). It is a solo form but it contains most of the practical ground fighting techniques needed for positional control in harmony with all Wing Chun principles as far as I can tell. There are a lot of forward thinking people in Kung Fu out there somewhere. So never say never and personally who knows who has the last laugh in the future?

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mantid1]

Mr 108

For an example I like to teach a hip throw then go right on top for a scarf hold. The defender will work an escape which will put the attacker in position for side four corner. Then the defender will do another escape for the attacher to for another hold and then.......you get the point.

The next time you do a sequence use different escapes which will put the attacker in postion for a second hold different than in the first sequence.

You can switch it up and go from attacker to defender with the holds.

Not a form but what I consider a "flow drill".

I do save chokes and submission holds which may dislocate elbows, shoulders etc.. for later. I cant trust someone who has been in my school twice a week for a year with that kind of info. Not that I think it is secret info but if teh guy has an attitude and dislocates a shoulder I could lose my house. If you know what I mean;)

I know you probably already do this type of training. Just wanted to share.

Works well when combined with the traditional mantis training and san shou.

Have a nice day.

[libingshao]

I am not nearly as well-versed as many of you seem to be here with ground fighting. What I have learned of ground boxing seems to be in the following priority:

1) Survive going to the ground and get back on your feet as soon as possible. He may have friends and you can escape more easily.

2) If you are on the ground, destablize your standing opponent while accomplishing #1 so that he can't hurt you as easily and you may be able to hurt him while he is down.

3) Go to the ground intentionally to destablize your opponent, then finish him from a kneeling/ standing position.

4) Take your opponent to the ground and injure him. (Not make him submit).

5) Your opponent has you down in a disadvantaged position; get him off you and get up or hurt him.

I have no doubt that cross-training in jujitsu must really help you to understand the grappler have better sensitivity and have a few extra tricks. I guess my question is, in the course of the training cycle, how much time do you devote to this cross-training?

Libingshao

[Ou Ji]

mantis108
My last comment was meant as a lighthearted look at what a single person grappling form might look like. Imagine rolling around applying locks and submissions on an imaginary opponent like is done in a stand up formm.
;)

[mantis108]

Hi Mantid1,

I hear you and I can see where you are coming from. You are right about the flow drill. Personally, I don't have a problem showing people locks and chokes. I think it is way too over rated by the "masters" that people will just use them to kill others or each other for that matter. If that's true, why's the crime statistics don't reflect much of MA related mimings or killings? Besides, I highly doubt the petty crime thieves will have the "discipline" to come train regularly. If you ask me, I think a lot of the "masters" where keeping practical Chin Na skill for the sake of their "practices". Effective grappling skill standing or otherwise might just be the biggest equalizer and the "masters" know that.

Hi Libingshao,

I will have to get back to you on that.

Hi Ou Ji,

I can see your humor, my bad. Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I am on your case. :) I was just sharing so thoughts and recent development in the Kung Fu field.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mantid1]

Hi Mr. 108

You misunderstood what I was saying. I dont think the locks and chokes are secret. I think they are basic.

I dont care if someone dislocates a shoulder or chokes someone out when they are on someone elses property, but I dont want that to happen in my school. Not because I love my students so much but because I like all the things I have worked for and do not want to lose them in a law suit. It probably would not happen but I dont want to take a chance. I did not say I wont teach them, but I will only teach certain people.

You may not have to worry because I am not sure what the laws are up in Yellowknife:)

Have a good day

[yu shan]

There is a ground fighting form in Pong Lai, my older kf brother is going to look into. He is learning it, I am not. I want to say di gong chen, I am probably off track.

I wrestled in high school and in wrestling clubs that is the extent of my ground stuff. I agree with libingshao, you should get back on your feet asap. The ground does not frighten me though. My Shifu showed me things to do against someone shooting for the takedown... he knocked me out.

Cross training in JJ...some of my guys are doing this, and they are doing well with it. I must say it compliments our standup. I would rather keep the fight in the standup position, this is where we are strong.