Wah Lum Tam Tui question

[patient student]

Hello all,

My name is Justin and I was wondering if I could bother you for some information regarding Praying Mantis. I am new to this system and I saw an opportunity for me to ask some questions to people out there who share a similar interest as me.

I have some questions regarding the style I study at my school in Massachusetts. Currently I am not able to be at home, but I have been trying to do my own research on Wah Lum Pai Tam Tui since I left. I intend on picking up right where I left off, but there are some informational gaps that should be filled if I want to take this more seriously. I am curious about the breakdown from the original style and how it finally came to become the style I currently learn. At my school I study Wah Lum Pai Tam Tui Northern Style Praying Mantis. I know praying mantis originated as one, and then splitting into two other forms; Northern Style and Southern Style. I currently study under the northern style praying mantis, so that is the branch I am currently concerned with. And correct me if I am wrong, but under the northern style mantis it then breaks into 12 different styles:

Seven Star = Chut Sing
Plum Flower = Moi Fa
Tai chi = Tai Gick
Plum Flower Tai Chi = Moi Fa Tai Gick
Wrestling Hands = Jut Sow
Secret Style = Bay Moon
Jade ring = Yuk Yuan
Six harmony = Lok Haap
Eight Step = Baat Bo
Rigid = Ngan
Flat Plate (Spotless) = Gong barn
Goddess Chi = Sun Gick

Since I study Wah Lum Tam Tui, I was wondering where or which one it falls under. I have been told, if my memory is correct, that it is a form of eight step, but I am not sure. I know the stories of Lee Kwan Shan and how he incorporated his family form of Tam Tui, with wah lum, so from there I feel comfortable with the lineage. But somehow between these twelve styles and Wah Lum Pai Tam Tui, I am confused as to how it came about. I don’t know if you know the answers or not, but right now you all are my best bet. I am particularly curious about the family generations and the evolution of Wah Lum Tam Tui also. If anyone has any information on this I would be very obliged.

I have other small questions too such as, I have heard forms such as “white ape steals a peach” and “eight elbows” also, and am wondering where they fall into the mantis system.

Again, I know you are all busy with much to do, but anything you could volunteer would mean a lot to me and my journey through Wah Lum. Thank you very much for your patience and hope to hear from you. Thanks again.



Justin

[yu shan]

Justin

Welcome to KFO! Good luck with your adventure, there will be numerous "gaps". Didnt your teacher tell you WL is jut sow? I have heard there is a relationship with Ba Bu Tanglang, yes no maybe so! Who you training with?

[Frogman]

Welcome Justin. Yushan is correct you are studying Jut Sow PM and there are a lot of gaps in PM in general. Just for the record Southern and Northern mantis are two different systems and share only the name. Your student handbook should explain most of these questions. If you have any questions your Sifu can not answer about Wah Lum maybe you can look here

http://www.wahlum.com/

Good luck in your search and your training. If you truly are patient you will learn everything you need to know in time.

Peace

fm
:D

[Donkwoon]

Justin, welcome to Kung Fu, I hope that it works out for you and I think that I can address some of you questions because I do study the same style (also in Ma.)

Firstly, it's my understanding that "Wa lum" is the name of the school or system if you will and that the name of the style is "Northern Tam Tui Praying Mantis". From what I have learned, there are schools that teach that style without ever having been a part of the Wa Lum system. However, I am by no means an expert about this and so your sifu may dissagree.

There is indeed a tremendous veriety of styles and forms under the general heading of Praying Mantis. It's fonder, Wong Long, is thought to have trained from as much as 16 different styles of Kung Fu and so the originale mantis forms started out reflecting quite a wide veriety.

I think that you ment to say "18 elbows". That is one of my most favored forms and it reflects many close in attack concepts. It does not employ much use of the mantis hand but it has many effective applications non the less.

Good luck. D

[Buddy]

Where in MA?

[K.Brazier]

Hi Justin,
I studied WL until '89 at which time I came to Taiwan to continue my study of PM.


" I know praying mantis originated as one, and then splitting into two other forms; Northern Style and Southern Style. "

The history of the two styles are completely different.
They share, by coincidence, the name mantis in their names.


" And correct me if I am wrong, but under the northern style mantis it then breaks into 12 different styles:"

Depends what you mean by the word style.

"Seven Star = Chut Sing"

This is branch number one.

"Plum Flower = Moi Fa
Tai chi = Tai Gick
Plum Flower Tai Chi = Moi Fa Tai Gick
Secret Style = Bay Moon
Eight Step = Baat Bo"

This branch number 2

"Wrestling Hands = Jut Sow"

This might be part of branch number two but there is scarce documentation. Wah Lum is branch number 2. And is closest to Zhao Zhuhsi's Taiji Mantis. Mantis 108 being a well known example.

"Six harmony = Lok Haap"

This branch number three.

"Jade ring = Yuk Yuan
Rigid = Ngan
Flat Plate (Spotless) = Gong barn
Goddess Chi = Sun Gick"

These are names without masters.

Actually one and two branches are very similar and you could also say they are all just a single branch, but when the branch divided is hard to say.


"Since I study Wah Lum Tam Tui, I was wondering where or which one it falls under. "

There is no written documentation to connect WL to Liang Xuexiang, but from some of the forms of the style it is apparant that this is so.
Supposedly Lee Kwanshan added his family boxing and later, in the south some southern techniques were added. But under it all is the Mantis. It is somewhat related to Taiji Mantis.

" I have been told, if my memory is correct, that it is a form of eight step,"

Nowadays these two styles are vastly different. They both have da fanche yet the 2 versions don't appear to have a single similarity. I am judging by closely watching so maybe if someone learned both those versions they might find a connection(but I doubt it).

When I was in WL no Xiao Fanche was being taught. So if it is still the case then there is no other chance for a related form between the two styles.
Their arrangement of moves is also substantially different.

" but I am not sure. I know the stories of Lee Kwan Shan and how he incorporated his family form of Tam Tui, with wah lum, so from there I feel comfortable with the lineage. "

I wouldn't. If you want to go deep into WL history and its northern roots then the place to start is the odd versions of Tan tuei. Common versions are 10 and 12 roads. But Lee Kwan Shan would likely be one of the longer versions of Tan Tuei which is rarely seen.

Also, in the origins of Gung Li Chuen.
Gung Li Chuen is a style, but in the west it is treated as a single form. I am not sure if anyone teaches this style in the west. But that single form has the most similarites to Wah Lum.
This form was also incorporated into Taiji Mantis so that would be a good place to start.


" I am particularly curious about the family generations and the evolution of Wah Lum Tam Tui also."

A lot of evolution credit belongs to Master Chan. He has made WL into one of the most visually exciting versions of Mantis(IMO). Some other versions can be fun to watch, but mostly they require many, many years. My opinion is that it is easier to make WL forms visually exciting than other versions of Mantis.


"I have other small questions too such as, I have heard forms such as “white ape steals a peach” and “eight elbows” also, and am wondering where they fall into the mantis system. "

White Ape is a 7* form. There are several different versions and they are all 7*. If it is in your school it was brought there after one of Chan's China trips to Shandong. M aster Chan would bring his students there and let them be exposed to other versions of Mantis.
Some schools adopted some of those forms into their curriculum.

As for 8 Elbows it is an old PM form.
Master Chan has not taught it publicly and I don't know if he knows it.
Supposedly it is part of original WL curriculum.
I have seen some of the moves of 8 elbows in other WL forms, such as 18 elbows.
WL has been able to adopt some of the forms of Jiang Bingdou into its curriculum. His version is very close to my own as his uncle is my Li Kunshan, a famous master in Taiwan.


"Again, I know you are all busy with much to do, but anything you could volunteer would mean a lot to me and my journey through Wah Lum. "

I know how you feel. Today is my last day at a computer for some time so I probably won't be able to answer any other questions you have in the near future.

Kevin

[patient student]

Thanks a lot for people's interest in my question. Keep the answers coming because this is all good information, not only for me, but to everyone else also. Someone asked where I study. I haven't been there long, but I Study at a small, but great school in Millbury Ma. The curriculum has encapsulated my interest and I can't get enough. I have been away for four months so its been a while. I wanted to gather as much info as I can before I go back and this is helping tremendously. Thanks again everyone and continue to post....they are great.

[spiralstair]

[QUOTE=Donkwoon]Justin, welcome to Kung Fu, I hope that it works out for you and I think that I can address some of you questions because I do study the same style (also in Ma.)

Firstly, it's my understanding that "Wa lum" is the name of the school or system if you will and that the name of the style is "Northern Tam Tui Praying Mantis". From what I have learned, there are schools that teach that style without ever having been a part of the Wa Lum system. However, I am by no means an expert about this and so your sifu may dissagree.

Hi Donkwoon,
There are plenty of Northern Praying Mantis schools, plenty of schools that teach Tam Tui as part of a larger group of forms, but there are no Northern Tam Tui Praying Mantis schools that don't owe a debt to Master Chan of Wah Lum Pai.

The term Northern Tam Tui Praying Mantis is an 'Americanization' of Wah Lum Pai.
Chances are that the instructors of the schools you mention that aren't part of the Wah Lum system were once Master Chan's students, but now have forgotten that.
As Master Chan recently reached his 35th year of teaching his style in the States, he has seen many people come and go. Though some have forgotton to credit him in their teaching Northern Tam Tui Praying Mantis Kung Fu, he continues to forget no one. So...a little credit where it is due.

It's a great style, and it sounds like you are enjoying it. Good luck in your studies.

[Donkwoon]

Thank's for clearing that up Spiralstair. My sifu does indeed give credit to Master Chan for teaching him that Tam Tui style and although he is not a part of the Wa Lum orginization any longer he still has a picture of him on his wall.

I live up in NH now and so I don't get to go down to his school to often but I still practice all the time and have a few students of my own. I'm always on the lookout for people up here in NH that could help me learn more of that style but it seems to be rare. Perhaps that could be the subject of a new thread....

[yu shan]

There is a guy in Nashua.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Pretty much everyone I know about that left Wah Lum still gives credit to Master Chan for their time spent in the system.

Anyone not mentioning his name publicly on thier website is doing so because they are not allowed to use the Wah Lum name or Master Chan Pui's name for monetary gain or advertising.

Don't be so quick to negative conclusions.

patient student
Your Sifu is a wealth of information so I doubt you will find anyone around you, or here for that matter, that can give you a fraction of what he knows.

If you do a search here you should see quite a bit of info on Wah Lum. I did my best to answer all the questions that popped up here and I'm too lazy to repeat them now but there are a few still here that can answer most of your questions.

A word of advice though - stick with the technical discussions and avoid the lineage and political stuff.

Jim
Nashua? I hope you aren't talking about Noah. :D

[yu shan]

Naoh... I`m busted! LOL :D

[MantisWarrior]

yay this is the first time i see a post about wah lum on this forum.
i m currently studying wah lum tam tui system in florida. it's awsome, been studying for about 4 months, i m at 16 hands, almost done can't wait to learn the staff

sorry for this spam lol

[Shaolin Dude]

I joined wah lum for 6 months now and I just finished right hand staff yesterday. I'm getting alot of material in a short amount of time. hehe :D

[Donkwoon]

Of all the styles that I've practiced forms from, I'd have to say that Wah Lum is my all time favorite. The forms contain a tremendous amount of variaty; Long range, short range; striking; grapling, take downs, locks and grabs. They also teach effective footwork. Even the begining level exercises 1-5 have a lot to offer so don't underestimate them. How advanced they are really just depends on how well you can perform them and use them.

There are no Wah lum schools near where I live now but I do get down to Ma. to learn a couple of sets taught in a weekend intensive setting about once a year. My sifu is no longer associated with the Wah Lum orginization but he still teaches many of those sets among other styles. It's a good way to learn if you are geographicly isolated from any teachings but have the disapline to practice on your own.

I've built up a collection of sets over the years and here is a list. If anyone wants to discuss them, feel free.

8 basic stances
8 basic kicks
8 basic strikes
exercises 1-5
16 hands
Little open gate
1st form
stright form
little mantis
2nd form
7 kicks
flute
right hand stick
16 movement stick
continuous broadsword
double daggers
18 elbows
army sword (horse cutter)
basic stick
cane
lo han fist
double sai
4th form
di so gee
master stick
2 man set
bench vs butterfly knife (1st half of both sides and badly in need of review)
lo gar spear (1st half only)

Forms from other styles that I still practice.

12 tam tuis
lin bo kuen
bak soo lum #7
damo's cane (looks just like the cane that ice climbers use)
cern sow gim
9 section steel whip
24 golden spear
tai chi 108 movement form ( still missing the last few moves)
tai chi short gim
tai chi broadsword (1st 2 thirds only and badly in need of review)
lui hei bafa
tang lang tsai chang ch'uan (this is the first form that I have ever learned just from video,it's a Northern mantis set)

I love practicing and discussing these sets so please feel free. (as long as your not breaking any rules of course)

[yu shan]

Explain: as long as your not breaking any rules of course

What is this suppose to mean?

[mantid1]

I think it means that some teachers may not want there students showing people form other styles their stuff.

This type of thing happens in most styles. Except for me I am open:)

You know, the teacher says if you teach any of my stuff to someone else I will kick you arse:mad:

[Donkwoon]

Mantid1 pretty much summed it up. Some schools are very tight when it comes to discussing there material with students from other schools. I also studied at a school where we were discoraged from demonstrating our forms to our friends outside of the school. The sifu that I am with now though is much more open.

[Ou Ji]

I could tell you our policy on publicly revealing info but I'm not allowed. Actually, I'm not even allowed to tell you that I'm not allowed to discuss our policy so I'm already in trouble.

:D

[yu shan]

LOL that is funny Ou Ji.

Donkwoon, this is an impressive list! OK one of my favorite Wah Lum forms is Little Mantis, I have always thought this was one of WL better sets. I know, your saying, what about 3rd form, 5th form... Big Mantis! Those are outrageous too! I remember when Sean Cochran taught me BM. Master Chan got mad, said I wasnt ready. Then took me out on the patio and taught me a slightly differant variation. And 36 hands, do any of you comrades take a break half way thru the form?:D

And WL weapon sets, just TOO many to choose from, all very nice. Double Daggers, Double BS and lo gar spear probably lead the way. WL weapon sets are all challenging. My kf brother and I use to do double dagger vs empty hand for demos, I was the idiot doing the empty hand side. :rolleyes: And I only hope to never have to teach 3-sectional again!;)

[Donkwoon]

Thanks yu shan for the compliment but it's really not that impressive considering how long I've been in Kung Fu. I won't get into the whole long story on this post but by now I should have been a sifu with my own school. I took a path that made it difficult to recieve instruction on a daily basis and so there have been long gaps in my training when I recieved no instruction at all.

If I've done anything that's impressive, it's that I've maintained the forms that I do have (except the one's that I mentioned being badly in need of review). I'm the kinda guy who really does love to do the forms and some of them I've done a thousand+ times; under the hot sun, on a freezing Winter night, in the rain, on an icey drivway, in the woods, you name it. At times I will practice the forms in a small room around furniture so that it forces me to alter the angles and leangths of the footwork, hopefully without compromising the quality and power of the moves. At full speed it can make for some interesting wipeouts.

Another thing that I like to do is to pick apart the single elaments of the forms and turn them into combat/self defense drills. That's why I say that even if you have just a few "lower" sets like say 16hands, little open gate, and the exercises you still have a ton of applications that can be applied to a variety of situations if you look at the sets with an open mind.

Eventually, I do want to learn some of the higher sets from the wha lum style and plan on learning about 4 sets per year for the next few years (although some will be from other styles).

I don't blame the Wah Lum leadership for being tight with their material; It's part of the reason it's such a strong and enduring style.

[yu shan]

Still remarkable Donkwoon the material you know. It is tuff to train on your own, I have been there. I think we all need to be pushed, whether by a teacher or a kf brother.

Yea, I have done my forms in some pretty crazy places. Most were parking lots, it always seems to spill over to the parking lot. Sometimes in my travels, I`ll mention to whoever is with... this is a good parking lot for training. The most difficult to me... the beach. The deep sand is challenging. But the reward of the sun, salt water and girls make it most delightful. Oh well that was in the ole days.

Donkwoon, I thought we were going to talk about these forms?

[K.Brazier]

<<Also, in the origins of Gung Li Chuen.
Gung Li Chuen is a style, but in the west it is treated as a single form. I am not sure if anyone teaches this style in the west. But that single form has the most similarites to Wah Lum.>

SPJ just posted a clipof some 2 man gung li chuen forms on the main board.
The partenr versions they do don't like Gung li or Wah Lum as we know it, but when those guys do the solo Gung Li(not shown) it is the gung li chune type of forms we are familiar with. But they do slightly more difficult versions which require some acrobatic skills and high coordination.

Kevin

[Donkwoon]

.

Donkwoon, I thought we were going to talk about these forms?


Now that you mention it, a question comes to mind that I keep forgeting to ask my sifu. In Little Mantis, after you go into the low 7-star stance and do the upward spear hand poke, the spear hand is brought back to the waist and turned palm up. (this happens right before the double kick) How would you explain this in terms of application?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Donkwoon
The upward spear hand attacks the Hui Yin cavity then retreats to cover the groin. The same move is found in Say Lok after the end of the first run.

I've seen others play this move at the waist but I was taught to cover the groin. I'll try to get a clip up.

[Darwin]

Does this help?

http://wahlumkungfuclute.com/pics/sifu2.mpg

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

That clip is a piece of Little Open Gate. Different spear hand move, different app.

MantisWarrior
At which school are you training?

Kevin, or anyone, could you point me to a clip of Gung Li Chuen single set?

[sayloc]

The kung Li kuen I learned while training at a Chin Woo Eagle Claw school does not resemble wah lum to me. Not that I know much about WL so.......

I could be a different form.

I could put it together to send to you but I dont like it enough to do that.

[yu shan]

Donkwoon

Hua Lin shared one application, I can use this as a throw also.

[Donkwoon]

Donkwoon

Hua Lin shared one application, I can use this as a throw also.

That's interesting, I never thought of that. I would imagine that you would have to use both hands though.

While I'm thinking about it, there is another move that I've always wondered about. In both stright form and 2nd form there is that stright arm wind mill move. From long range the obvious interpertation would be an overwhelming clubing action but is there an aceptable close in application such as a throw or defense against a full nelson attempt? Just wondering.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I thought someone else would have jumped on your last question but I guess not. The move is called Fan Che and can be a throw at close range.

[Donkwoon]

Thanks Hua Lin for the response. I had a feeling that move was used for something like that but I've just never seen it in action.

Last year I bought a video; Tai Mantis Kung Fu, Hidden Techniques part 1 by Scott Cohen. It's mostly pretty basic/itermediate but I did get a few new ideas from it. I take my time and go over each teqnique several times so that I burn them into my reflex memory. Maybe part 2 after the holidays.

I wish Wah Lum made some videos.

[18elders]

forgot those forms, where in the forms is it?
forget straight form, maybe able to recall 2nd form.
I hated straight form.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

D a m n, I have to stop and think about it myself these days. I used to know them inside and out. Guess I need to practice them more.

In Straight Form it's at the end of the first run, before you turn to go back.

Second Form does it just before Lu Lu near the end of first run..

Straight Form is heavy southern influence, maybe that's why you don't like it. :D

[mantid1]

maybe in your systems little fan che, big fan cha, lok lo and 36 hands?

Not my system but just a guess

[18elders]

okay, they are coming back to me, still can't remember the whole set but i know what your talking about now.

[Chop Socki]

Now that you mention it, a question comes to mind that I keep forgeting to ask my sifu. In Little Mantis, after you go into the low 7-star stance and do the upward spear hand poke, the spear hand is brought back to the waist and turned palm up. (this happens right before the double kick) How would you explain this in terms of application?

I've seen a different application of the technique as you describe it. The spear hand is done on the inside of your leg, and is intended as a 'hidden' technique, i.e. one which achieves its results by 'surprise', rather than by overpowering strength. If it is detected by your opponent, his most likely defense will be a 'golden chicken-style' leg parry, followed up by a snapping front kick. When the spear hand is brought back to the waist palm up, it would be to trap (i.e. 'catch') the kicking foot, a reasonable interpretation since the very next technique is a pair of low kicks aimed at whichever of your opponent's leg is still on the floor.

Nice discussion!

- CS

[mantid1]

I have seen others post with that same application of trapping the kick or blocking it with the palm at the waist.

I do not understand how that would be effective. If someone is throwing a kick full speed at you and you trap it to your mid section you will just be helping them with thier kick. If you bring your hand back to the waist for a block they will still hit your blocking hand full force and the energy will still go into your body. It may have a little of the sting taken out of it. But if that would work it would kill the theory of the hammer and nail. We know that is not the case.

The most likey application would be after the spear hand the person throws a straight thrusting type of kick. Since your right hand is already extended you would do a redirective knife edge block to the leg. Since you start the block away from your body 2 inches of deflection at the point at which the block makes contact with the leg will give you enough deflection at the end of the technique (8 inches?) to clear the body for an effective block.

I would still take the technigue over to my left hip to insure enough deflection.


Just going by video so I could be wrong.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Here's a thought you might not have considered. It also illustrates my view on fighting. Mantis is an aggresive style. For instance, a lot of moves against a punch can also be used as a first strike against a hands up position. Why wait for an attack?

Now, I play the Little Mantis sequence same as described by Chop Socki but consider this: After the Golden Chicken leg block the Spear Hand catches the leg (contact and cling) and pulls it in keeping opponent on one leg while attacking the standing leg with a Dung Tui. So there's no need to wait for a kick. Disrupt his ability re-ground himself and stabilize then attack the weak link.

See, why is everything explained as a response? Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.