Any Shuai-shou?

[onyomi]

My shifu practices Shuai-shou (hand-throwing) Praying Mantis, but I don't think he's ever taught it to anyone because he considers it to be too difficult. I got him to do it once for me and it was like the coolest thing I've ever seen... but that's all I've ever seen of it... does anyone have any video clips of anyone else doing it? Has anyone here ever studied or known anyone who studied it? My Shifu's Shifu, Wang Song Ting is credited with "inventing" it, but my shifu says he doesn't believe Wang could've developed it just by himself. I might be able to convince my Shifu to teach it to me in a few years if I remain dedicated to my practice... but I'm just so curious about it.

I noticed someone mention a style I'd never heard of before called "Meihua Shuaishou" that they might practice at Wahlum/Hualin. Has anyone here practiced that? Do you know if it is the same/similar to Shuai-shou?

[taichi4eva]

I am really interested about Shuaishou. What have you learned so far? Lipiquan? Qishou?

Wei Hsiao Tang studied Shuaishou Tanglang in his youth and these forms were supposedly brought into the Babu Tanglang system. So I was just wondering...

[onyomi]

My shifu has studied a wide variety of PM styles, so he has a tendency to say: "Ok, now I'm going to teach a 7* to work on your..." "Ok, now I'm going to teach you a Six Harmony to work on your..." etc. I would eventually like him to teach me one style more systematically from beginning to end, but for the time being I'll just trust to his judgement.

So far I've learned: Lipiquan, Xiao-jiazi, Da-jiazi (both from Guangban), Yedi Canghua (from Liuhe) and Baiyuan Chudong. I think I'll get him to teach me the other two White Monkey forms next as I enjoy Baiyuan Chudong a lot.

I also have learned the first two forms of Taizu Chang-quan, which I think has 8 forms total. It is indeed reminiscent of PM, as some people have pointed out, and I think my Shifu considers it a good base for PM.

As to when I can learn Shuai-shou... I think it may be a few years. My shifu says you have to have a high level of PM and be able to send large amounts of qi to the fingers automatically in order to do it well as it is very dianxue-oriented.

I can only tell you what little my Shifu has told me and shown me about it: It uses an unusual hand arrangement whereby the index and ring fingers are held higher than the others in order to pinch qi meridians between them. It is very relaxed but lightning fast. The hands are thrown out in rapid, complex motions with what looks like a whipping energy. It's extremely beautiful--it looks like some kind of Thai dancing. It's so beautiful I was a bit doubtful of its efficacy until I got my Shifu to demonstrate it on me. He pinched somewhere on my abdomen that basically immobilized me... very strange feeling.

I'm just hoping he'll teach it to me in a few years if I remain dedicated to my PM and qigong training.

Wang Song Ting had many students other than my Shifu, though most of them may be quite old or dead by now... possibly one of them or one of their students would also know this system? It's worth looking into, but so far I've found hardly any info. about it other than from my Shifu.

[Robert Young]

> Wang Song Ting had many students other than my Shifu, though most of them
> may be quite old or dead by now... possibly one of them or one of their
> students would also know this system? It's worth looking into, but so far I've
> found hardly any info. about it other than from my Shifu.

GM Wang Song-Ting is seven star PM. My teacher studied with him. There are not many people really studied with GM Wong. I think I know most of them. The only teacher officially teaching GM Wong's PM in Taiwan is Gao Dao-Sheng. I don't think he know Shuai Shou PM either. I don't know where the Shuai Shou PM you saw came from. But, it definitely not from GM Wong. Sorry to disappoint you. You probably need to re-check where the Shuai Shou PM form you saw came from.

Cheers,

[onyomi]

Um, what do you mean "officialy"? Did GM Wang give out certificates to those who were allowed to teach his style before he died? I think my shifu would disagree with you seeing as he openly teaches Wang's PM in Taipei. My shifu, Zhou Baofu, was Wang Songting's last student and, therefore, his successor. Perhaps Wang never taught the style to Gao Dao Sheng because he had not chosen Gao Dao Sheng as his successor? He must have taught it to at least one other student, however, as my Shifu claims to have finished learning much of the curriculum Wang set out for him from his Shijie. Though Wang chose my Shifu to train as his successor when he was only 6, Wang died when my Shifu was 11 and his Shijie had to teach him the rest of the system in accordance with Wang's wishes. My Shifu officialy became the succesor of Wang's system at the age of 16 and has been ever since. My Shifu has since studied other styles of PM like Six Harmony with other teachers in Hong Kong and elsewhere.

What you're saying doesn't make any sense in that if Gao Dao Sheng was really GM Wang's best and most-thoroughly taught pupil, he would know the Shuai-shou system Wang was famous for! I'm not saying Gao Dao Sheng isn't a great PM practitioner, but he is certainly not the only one "officially" teaching GM Wang's Praying Mantis. If you don't believe my Shifu actually studied with GM Wang and neither your teacher nor Gao Dao Sheng learned Shuai-shou are you therefore saying that Shuai-shou is dead? If not, who knows it?

I read your previous post about Shifu Zhou in which your chronology is blatantly incorrect. Wang Song Ting died in 1964 and my Shifu was born in 1953. Therefore, though he was very young, my Shifu was 11 at the time and had already been chosen by Wang as his successor. As you probably know, it was the custom to choose one's last student to be the successor of the entire system in order to ensure its continued transmission for as long as possible. Though I'm sure he wasn't expecting to die in five years, GM Wang did choose my Shifu as his successor and did teach him intensively up until the time of his death, after which my Shifu was taught by his Shijie, as I have just said. The fact that Zhou's Mantis doesn't "look like" that of other students of Wang's is not really relevant. Did Cheng Ting Hua's Bagua "look like" Yin Fu's? No. Besides, my Shifu knows more than one way of performing many forms and often chooses to demonstrate the less well-known version. GM Wang himself was (in)famous for seeming to do the same form differently at different times of day. What's more, my Shifu admits that his own PM probably looks closer to that of his Shijie then that of Wang himself, having spent the latter half of his training under her.

My shifu did not learn from Adam Hsu, however they are good friends, having both studied Chang-quan under Han Qing-tang. Our respective classes also practice weapons together at Sun Yat Sen Memorial Hall on the weekends. So if Adam Hsu, one of the most respected modern day CMA historians believes in my Shifu's version of events enough to have written about it in the preface to his book, don't you think my Shifu deserves the benefit of the doubt? Who then are you to say whom GM Wang did or did not take on as a student late in life?

[EarthDragon]

tachieva and onyomi,

there seems to a be a little confusion. You both mentioed lipi and qishou. while it is true these sets are in 8 step they are not to be confused with
Shuai Chiao (chinese wreslting)

lipi (powercut) and qishou (7hands) are forms in mantis where the shuai chaio is a system unto itself.

[yu shan]

Earth

This Shuai-shou is a style of mantis boxing. Pretty rare stuff I believe. I`m just sitting back waiting to see where this goes, just like a few other peeps here. ;)

[Robert Young]

> Um, what do you mean "officialy"? Did GM Wang give out certificates to those
> who were allowed to teach his style before he died?
No, Chinese do not do certificate things. But, CMA society in Taiwan knows who is who's students.

> shifu, Zhou Baofu, was Wang Songting's last student.
I really don,t want to disappoint you. But sorry, I think you are scammed. Zhou BaoFu has never been anybody's disciple. He learned forms here and there and sell tapes and teaches to make a living. When GM Wong died, Zhou has not learned northern CMA at all. He was an Gonf Fu movie actor then. I don't believe he and GM Wong even met. He was too young then. Zhou has come to my teacher also. He wanted to learn some Long Fist forms and make tapes for business. But, hw wanted to use his name as author that we did not agree. Then, he went to learn his Long Fist forms from my Long Fist uncle Shen Mao-Hui. In Taiwan, we all know who is who and we all know who Zhou is and what he does. While I was in high school, we used to perform in public a lot. Zhou was an actor then, but he like to perform and I remember he performed southern styles forms then. He has never been in Long Fist or PM back then. This was around 1970+.

> My shifu did not learn from Adam Hsu, however they are good friends, having
> both studied Chang-quan under Han Qing-tang.
Wrong again, Zhou has never learned from GM Han either. Even Adam seldom learned from GM Han personally. Most of the time, it was my teacher and other senior students of GM Han taught their junior students. This is the way Long Fist works. Teachers teach mostly to their seniors students, and they let the seniors to teach the rest. If the students has been with the teachers long enough, then they will become senior and do the same thing.

Please go to Zhong Hwua Guo Shu Hui (Chinese Martial Art Association) or Taipei Guo Shu Hui (Taipei Martial Art Association). Ask around to people in those association and you will find the answer.

> if Adam Hsu, one of the most respected modern day CMA historians believes in
> Shifu's version of events enough to have written about it in the preface to his > book, don't you think my Shifu deserves the benefit of the doubt?
Adam Hsu may be famous for you. But, he is not that famous in Taiwan's CMA society. I really hate to say this. He was in the last group of students GM Han took. He was a scholar and major in Chinese literature and likes to write things. Even some of the stories he wrote about GM Han was not quite right. As for PM side, he does not really know about GM Wong and has never learned from GM Wong either. He was too young also then. This is our Long Fist family business. I grew up watching all the events. I can keep going to tell you more stories, but that won't help anybody either. So, let stop here.

Again, please go the those associations and ask around. Chinese are not very straight forward, so be careful how you ask.

Cheers,

[onyomi]

Have you known Zhou Baofu personally ever since he was a young child? If not, how do you know who he did or didn't study with? I never said that Adam Hsu or Zhou were Han Qing Tang's senior students. I just said they both studied Long Fist under him at the same time. This is how they first met. Are you saying that Adam Hsu is lying about how he first met his friend?

I never said that Adam Hsu studied under GM Wang. He never maid such a claim either. Adam Hsu learned his PM from Zhang Xiang San and Li Kun Shan.

I know my Shifu likes to exchange new forms with other teachers. He has been studying with many different teachers for the past 40 years! He was an actor in Hong Kong for a time and while there he studied a variety of styles including Liuhe Mantis. My Shifu also publishes DVDs teaching forms. They are probably the highest quality instructional martial arts DVDs I have ever seen. I don't see how either of these things proves anything about whether or not he was GM Wang's disciple, however.

Gao Dao Sheng studied PM with GM Wang in the twenties in Shandong, while my Shifu studied it with him in in the fifties in Taiwan. Is it any wonder their styles are different? Did Gao Dao Sheng maintain close relations with Wang until his death? If not, how is he supposed to know whom he did or didn't choose to train thirty years after he trained with him?

I would disagree that Adam Hsu is not well known in Taiwan. He is probably the most famous Baji instructor there. Regardless, by calling my Shifu a liar you are also calling him a liar as Hsu supports my Shifu's version of events.

As to going to the Guoshu hui, or whatever, why would I want to do this? Kung Fu teachers love to criticize other Kung Fu teachers. I'm sure lots of them there who don't even know anything about Wang or Zhou would gladly make derogatory comments about my Shifu if I asked them. But could they produce any hard evidence that my Shifu's verion of events was not true? I doubt it very much. Would they tell my Shifu to his face that he never really studied with GM Wang? Even less likely, I think.

So, the facts I have to work with are: My Shifu, whom I have known for two years and whom I consider to be a very kind and honest individual, is the most amazing martial artist I have ever met. His knowledge of Praying Mantis and qigong are peerless among all the CMA instructors I've encountered. His actual ability to fight using his art is also the best of anyone I've met. For every move in the PM forms he teaches he can show me multiple deadly applications and adaptations. My shifu practices a form of Praying Mantis called Shuai-shou, which happens to coincide with the form which GM Wang was famous for. I've seen him practice it and can tell you there's no way he just made it up. My shifu claims to have learned this from GM Wang or one of his senior students, but some people who know some people who studied with GM Wang thirty years before my Shifu claim that my Shifu didn't really study with him... Also, another well-respected Taiwanese martial artist backs up my Shifu's version of events. Who am I going to believe--the actual person that I know and trust and who has displayed for me his amazing martial ability, or someone who says "my shifu says his shifu says your shifu never studied with my shifu's shifu."?

[Robert Young]

> What you're saying doesn't make any sense in that if Gao Dao Sheng was really
> GM Wang's best and most-thoroughly taught pupil, he would know the Shuai-
> shou system Wang was famous for!
I did not say Gao Dao Sheng is Wang's best student. He is not even my teacher. There are several senior students of GM Wong that were much better than master gao actually. Many of them were his disciples back in mainland. But, none of them teach for living. That is why I said master Gao is the only teacher form GM Wong's lineage teach. And master Gao start learning from GM Wong after he came to Taiwan actually, unlike others think he started with GM Wong in Mainland. Like I said before, this is our Long Fist family thing.

> I would disagree that Adam Hsu is not well known in Taiwan.
He is well know alright. But, there are many many more famous treachers than Adam in Taiwan. Adam is well know for his writing. That is all I will say.

> As to going to the Guoshu hui, or whatever, why would I want to do this?
Guo Shu Hui is the only place you can really get third oppinions about this. That is why you should go there. I know Zhou when he wan't even called Zhou Bao Fu.

> Kung Fu teachers love to criticize other Kung Fu teachers.
On the contrary, Chinese Kung Fu teachers actually seldom critisize other teachers. The reason I reply this is because it is related to my lineage. You can advertise as much as you like, I really don't care. The reason I don't want to tell you more stories is that I don't want to see more people get hurt.

This will be the last message I will respond to you here.

Don't argue with me. Check with third party.

[onyomi]

Why do you keep saying "this is our Long Fist family thing"? What does that even mean? Who is your teacher? Was he one of GM Wang's senior students? If not him, then who? Is there anyone left alive you feel is qualified to teach Wang's Shuaishou Tanglang?

If you think Zhou Baofu is a con-man and that I am being conned wouldn't the nicest thing to do be to explain why so that others wont be conned? You're saying he changed his name? Why on earth would he do that? The purpose of the forums is open information sharing. If you have reliable info. about Zhou Baofu then please explain. Just saying "oh, I've got all these stories you wouldn't believe but that I won't mention here" doesn't mean anything. Please clarify why you criticize my Shifu. Otherwise, it is just more insulting and helps no one.

The same goes for Adam Hsu--you make cryptic remarks like "Adam is known for his writing... that is all I will say" as if to imply that his actual Kung Fu is not very good. Please explain your opinion of him as well. You may be trying to be unoffensive by not going into too many details, but the result is more offensive because it leaves the reader to imagine for himself what you might be talking about. How would you like it if I just said "Oh, Robert Young, yes... well he's a very interesting character... but I won't say any more for the sake of politeness." It's actually more insulting than if I really said something.

[Sifu Darkfist]

Wow you guys are prolific i though i was long winded (just playing with you i am enjoying it completely.
Well for my 2 cents or .9 cents whatever, Master Yang has taught me and currently teaches some of the Students this style. It is very effective he has shown it to be more than once(painful) hehehe , now as for a great source of it besides him, i am a fool to not remember (we should take freakin notes fighters focus to much on the applications) so i am going to ask help from one of the Senoir disciples RAF, Did it come from Gm Su or did it come from Masters first Sifu? I know in the case of GM su there is very little Mantis that exists that he hasnt worked on so im going out on a limb and saying it would think it is from that branch.

Anyway, it is fast graceful and full of whipping throws and limb breaks (our brunswick favorite) among many leg grappling moves and snaps of the waist as well, I am very happy someone brought it up
James

[Sifu Darkfist]

god i feel dumb i forgot what i really wanted to say
the vid on my site is 80% Shuai Shou (the intro is a lanjie hybrid) then there is 2 lines of shuai shou and the final 2 lines are just hybrid for demo purposes i just love hard elbow shots anyway, if you focus on the area i spoke of you can see some of the version taught by My Master the whole form is a Hybrid inspired by all these men Gm su M Yang etc. But i play it like this to show PM variety in one demo.

[onyomi]

Very cool demonstration. As to whether it is the same as my Shifu's Shuai-shou, I haven't seen enough of it to know as I am still a relative beginner. How did your teacher teach you Shuai-shou? There are six forms (yilu-liulu) according to my Shifu. Did you learn them in that manner? What are your other PM styles? 7* and Meihua?

[Lu Bu]

All of this...er...discussion...about Shuaishou makes me really wish I could see it. Even though I did study Hualin for a while. Guess I just didn't experience enough Shuaishou when I studied it. I wonder why. :rolleyes:

[Sifu Darkfist]

Master Yang has alot of Pm. I have trained 7* ba bu Shuai shou mei hua, and through Master Sun De Yao (and company from Qing Dao) Tai ji mei Hua and six harmony (although the last one i have done very little do to its softness and my decidedly Baji flavor). The Wutang Greats Like Master Yang Wong Ma Su Tsou Hsu, Findley etc etc. all have a large compliment of Pm and tend to teach toward the Students Ability. (at least as far as i have seen). These men teach what they feel is right in most cases. For example Master Yang has said many times that & star is great for a little guy (me) so i got a huge compliment of these techniques and applications. However he feels you should speak them all so i learned others as well. According to him in my memory Shaui Shou is out of the 7* Format originally. the modifications came out of the fast flowing attacks of 7*.
Remember though this school (Wutang/ tan) is huge, and there are alot of different takes but they all meet the minds on many issues which even today causes the meeting of the minds on many different issues. To me, it is amazing that these men can work as well together as they do. Gm Liu must have been quite the man to attract such quality characters.

[yu shan]

I hope you can get to the tournament in Asheville NC in Feb. It would be nice to meet. I`d like to see shuai shou tanglang.

[Sifu Darkfist]

We are in the process of discussion of attending currently and so far it seems favorable. God my time has been very little, i havent even seen my own master in weeks and it kills me to be away. Of course we all know how busy life is. Maybe i might be able to bring a Brother or two as well?

as far as meeting me, lol im not that impressive i am very short and trollish looking lol, but i love people and i love to train really hard, many of my students are much more impressive than i. But thank you

[yu shan]

love people and love to train hard... sounds like good ingredients for a teacher to me.

[onyomi]

Darkfist, does your Shuai-shou make use of the hand position I described earlier in which the the index and ring fingers are raised above the others? Just curious. :)

[Sifu Darkfist]

hmm i dont supose you could take a pick of the hands for me because im just not sure of the context in which you speak? mantis claws? fighting stance? strikes?

[Sifu Darkfist]

hmm i dont suppose you could take a pick of the hands for me because im just not sure of the context in which you speak? mantis claws? fighting stance? strikes?

[Sifu Darkfist]

hmm i dont suppose you could take a pic of the hands for me because im just not sure of the context in which you speak? mantis claws? fighting stance? strikes?

[Sifu Darkfist]

hmm i dont suppose you could take a pic of the hands for me because im just not sure of the context in which you speak? mantis claws? fighting stance? strikes?

[onyomi]

Put a chopstick or pencil over your middle finger and pinky but under your index and ring fingers. Remove the chopstick without moving your fingers and you've basically got the position I'm talking about. The wrists are bent, but the thumb is more splayed than the usual diao-shou. You're supposed to be able to use this position to perform dianxue-like strikes by pinching meridians between the index and ring fingers.

[Sifu Darkfist]

here is the pick of hands i use

[onyomi]

But that is just the regular PM diao-shou, correct? Is there not another hand position specific to Shuai-shou? Is the Shuai-shou you practice a part of 7*? I had thought it was an advanced form of Chang-quan PM, but Chang-quan PM is apparently just an amalgam of Meihua and 7*? Does not Shuai-shou have its own set of taolu? You say you do some Shuai-shou in your demonstration, but shouldn't it be a shuai-shou set or not? If not, what makes what you do in the form "shuai-shou" specifically? Is not a Shuai-shou a substyle all its own as opposed to a type of move like gou-lou-cai?

[Sifu Darkfist]

yes yes yes and yes, no Just kidding. As an applications focused teacher the only concentration on internal power i use is fajing or chi in strikes throws etc. I do not know accupuncture and do not have the time to learn it nor do i wish to. so as far meridian pinching and complicated techniques such as this im afraid i will not be much help.
As far as my demonstration, thats just it it is my demonstration so i did mix it up and i had fun.
Shuai Shou that i was taught only has 3 forms and yes it could be considered a sub style (although i dont consider it) because other than the emphasis on whipping arms, power generation and now the Mysterious meridian thing i fail to see a great big difference in it and 7 star.
it sounds like you are from the same area of the world as my master so the lineage should be real easy for you to document. I will tell you that some of the advanced forms in our system are heavily influenced by other styles its all very complicated. If you can sort it out let me know, all i know is what im told until i get a chance to research more (i am planning to do this when i get old) i only have time to train now.

[mantid1]

Hi Darkfist


Could you tell us the name of the the 3 forms?

Thanks

[Sifu Darkfist]

your gonna make me make a fool of myself in an attempt to spell these things?
ok here it doesnt go Zai Que, cha chuan, tang lang hand? thats the best i can do guys i can say them but god help me i cant spell em.
James

[onyomi]

I think the ones my Shifu teaches are just called Shuai-shou Yilu, Shuai-shou Erlu... (Hand-throwing Set One, Hand Throwing Set Two...) up to set six.

[Ou Ji]

Don't mean to offend but that sure sounds a lot like Zhai Yao roads 1 to 6.

[Sifu Darkfist]

Hello
no offense taken ever, actually we do have xixing zai yao 1-8 haowever this somthing totally different. and i know i spelled them totally wrong so there is no point in further discussion. I will just suffice to say that i alwys asked for substyle specification from my master and that word came up for the three forms.
sorry i am of no help.

of course i never asked for spelling and wouldnt remember if i did, i am trying to learn the actual characters instead it will be easier for me since it is the real language and i can separate it from english

[Ou Ji]

Sifu Darkfist
I was referencing the post by onyomi. Should have quoted it in my response I guess.


I think the ones my Shifu teaches are just called Shuai-shou Yilu, Shuai-shou Erlu... (Hand-throwing Set One, Hand Throwing Set Two...) up to set six.

That sounds, to me, very much like Zai Yao 1 to 6. Could just be an error in pronunciation. Maybe if onyomi could post a short clip it would make sense.

BTW, you say you have Zai Yao 1 to 8? It's been posted here that road 7 is groundfighting. What is road 8?

[onyomi]

Sifu Darkfist
I was referencing the post by onyomi. Should have quoted it in my response I guess.



That sounds, to me, very much like Zai Yao 1 to 6. Could just be an error in pronunciation. Maybe if onyomi could post a short clip it would make sense.

BTW, you say you have Zai Yao 1 to 8? It's been posted here that road 7 is groundfighting. What is road 8?

Nope, I read the list of PM forms he teaches on his webpage. He has Yilu Zhaiyao-quan through Liulu Zhaiyao-quan, Yilu through Liulu Mimen and then also the Shuai-shou forms I mentioned. Just because they each have six forms doesn't mean they're the same.