Article on counters for kicks

[splodge]

Hi,

I have recently done a small article on counters for kicks and would appreciate your feedback.

http://www.wing-chun-training.com/articles/counters-for-kicks.htm

Thanks
Splodge

[zooki]

Thanks its a Nice Article...... :)

My first post, and i would like to say hi to everyone, i been lurking on this forum for some time and it looks great.

[sihing]

Good article. Lots of common sence advise (that is sometimes not so common, lol) and what to do and when to do it. Practice, practice and more practice to get familar with the lines and methods of attacks are critical for real self defense. I believe in building a great defense and structure, because IMO offense is easier.


Kicks are slower than punches but output more power and punishment at one time, so people get scared of them. Plus, kicks start from a lower reference point than punches, and I have found out through experience and investigation that we as human beings have a harder time tracking attacks from that lower reference points. Watch the slowest points on the attacking limbs, elbows and knees to pick up on what they are attacking with.

James

[anerlich]

Nice job.

Minor nitpicking:

Targeting the inside of the hips to stop a kick is not "unique to the Wing Chun system". Nor is kicking the supporting leg, e.g. MT cut kick.

You correctly advise against not blocking an MT roundhouse to a high gate target with your arms as they might get broken, but you don't really define a better strategy if you weren't able to get inside the kick or catch it early enough to avoid blocking, other than deflecting and using an angle rather than catching it straight on. What shapes DO work if tan sao doesn't?

[Airdrawndagger]

Nice job.

Minor nitpicking:

Targeting the inside of the hips to stop a kick is not "unique to the Wing Chun system". Nor is kicking the supporting leg, e.g. MT cut kick.

You correctly advise against not blocking an MT roundhouse to a high gate target with your arms as they might get broken, but you don't really define a better strategy if you weren't able to get inside the kick or catch it early enough to avoid blocking, other than deflecting and using an angle rather than catching it straight on. What shapes DO work if tan sao doesn't?

If your close enough to turn and tan a round house kick then you are close enough to take a half step into the attack and tan the round house kick. You will/might break your arm if the contact point of the tan is around the shin to foot area. Anything inside the shin will not break your arm because the velocity of the kick at those points is significantly less than trying to absorb the full brunt of the kick at the lower part of the leg/foot.

[sihing]

You can use a tan and pak to counter a round kick, regardless if it's Thai or TKD. The idea is to use the pak primarily against the knee, and use the tan as a backup if you miss. Step side ways into the kick to dissolve his force before it reaches it's apex. The knee has less power and is moving slower than the foot or shin. It's easier to pick up with the eyes also. We also use a pak/gaun combo with T-step away from the kick, with the Pak/Gaun making contact around the knee again. Side step and Biu Sau and front kicks works also (especially against rear leg kicks). Try not to accept the full force of the round kick is key. Lots of options available depending on your positioning and your opponents skill with kicks.

Not getting hit is the most important, lol.

James

[couch]

Good, straightforward article.

My points:
I believe that if a kick isn't above the abdomen, there is no way I'm going to use my hands to block it. It's too risky to place my hands and arms of a powerful kick.

I think the best thing to do is drive forward and attack the centre either with my legs or arms. Some of those thai kicks are fast, tight and powerful. Blocking the leg itself can still get you to eat some. In my kwoon, we have a somewhat experience Muay Thai ring fighter. Some of those kicks hurt when blocked. Forget blocking them, get out of the way...either back up, or drive drive drive forward.

I was actually talking with Ernie regarding some of this stuff and after testing it out a little, I think that driving straight in with a Choi Ma step or angling off...but still driving in is the best way to defend.

IMO,
Kenton Sefcik

[anerlich]

If your close enough to turn and tan a round house kick then you are close enough to take a half step into the attack and tan the round house kick.

I was making suggestions for the article rather than asking for advice, but thanks. I'd try to use James' strategy myself, a double block with most of the energy going to block at the knee, with the the other arm just providing an auxiliary shield against any of the kick that still got through after you stopped or slowed down the arc of the kick at the knee. Stepping inside the arc of a blow to reduce the angular speed of the blow at point of impact is a sound strategy for any circular attack.

All of this presupposes that you are on the mark and the guy isn't too **** fast or hasn't offpositioned you badly enough that you can't do your half step into the kick and block at or above the knee. You'd still want to have your hands up and may be try and take the shot on our shoulder or with a crazy monkey or shield type defense. A broken forearm is probably better than a fractured skull.

As James said, getting hit is better. Not getting into the fight in the first place better still.

[Airdrawndagger]

I was making suggestions for the article rather than asking for advice, but thanks. I'd try to use James' strategy myself, a double block with most of the energy going to block at the knee, with the the other arm just providing an auxiliary shield against any of the kick that still got through after you stopped or slowed down the arc of the kick at the knee. Stepping inside the arc of a blow to reduce the angular speed of the blow at point of impact is a sound strategy for any circular attack.

All of this presupposes that you are on the mark and the guy isn't too **** fast or hasn't offpositioned you badly enough that you can't do your half step into the kick and block at or above the knee. You'd still want to have your hands up and may be try and take the shot on our shoulder or with a crazy monkey or shield type defense. A broken forearm is probably better than a fractured skull.

As James said, getting hit is better. Not getting into the fight in the first place better still.

Yes of course anerlich, how dare I give YOU any advice and not the thousand or so others who might be curious as to someone elses POV.:p

Your blocking knee is useless if the kick is going for your head because its range is mid level and the attack is high level so the energy that you absorb will be 95% in your tan arm which is why some people do hurt themselves when they stand in one spot and raise there knee and tan. It is good practice to raise your knee and tan at the same time to block a kick however, steping into a roundhouse kick and blocking, is a much easier and safer way to handle that type of attack.

Of course the blocking knee is very effective if you are blocking a round house kick to the mid-lower sections.

Couch made some good points, either get out of the way or charge forward. But if you do attempt to block, its better to block above the shin with a angled tan with a pak sau applied behind the tan arm for reinforcement if nessisarry.
BTW- what the H3LL is a "crazy monkey type defense" LOL

[anerlich]

BTW- what the H3LL is a "crazy monkey type defense" LOL

I wouldn't dare to presume to give advice to you either.

Hint: SBGi.

[Airdrawndagger]

OH yes. The elusive crazy monkey type defense, how could I have forgotten...




Hint: SBGi.

I would like to buy a vowel for $200.00

[marcus_pasram]

Hi everyone,

SiFu Lee tells all his students, "no one can teach you how to fight, you have to learn yourself." He insists that experience is the only teacher and an Instructor's purpose is to guide the student down that path where that switch will go on and you 'get' it. You have to earn it. There are no secrets, just hard work.

In our school, we have many drills that have to be performed over and over and over and then a few more times. This method of training helps students to gain the coordination, reflex and feeling to instinctively recognize where they're under attack and to respond with the appropriate technique to cover the exposed gate in the manner and ways of Wing Chun's simultaneous offense and defense. The exercises that were linked to are only drills. Fighting comes later, once the students can handle these drills

Here are two links of SiFu Lee explaining Kwan Sau and Bong Gerk Coverage against roundhouse kicks. These ideas are only the starting point for the student to understand how to approach their training. Video 1 (http://www.wingchunnyc.com/techniques/qt_media/oh1.sifu.cover.1.htm) and Video 2 (http://www.wingchunnyc.com/techniques/qt_media/oh2.sifu.basic.rhouse.htm).

[anerlich]

Disagree on this. If

- A MT guy's round house kick can break my arm, or
- A boxer's hook punch can knock me down, or
- A TKD's skip in side kick can send me flying,

then I'm not in good body shape to fight him.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, then. All of these things can happen even to well conditioned athletes. I was present when Stan Longinidis broke Dennis Alexio's shin with a round kick in a WKA match, when Alexio was in about the best shape of his life.

If a boxer's hook punch connects with your head and you do not shed it or somehow cushion the blow, your chimes WILL get rung. The brain is not among the tissues you can condition for impact. Supremely fit boxers with lots more ring time than you keep getting knocked out.


If a MT guy spend 6 hours on his heavy bag for his round house kick and I also spend 6 hours on my "round house kick catching" then my chance to catch that kick will be high.

There are perhaps highly committed guys in Thailand that do the first, but NOBODY dies the latter. Muay Thai guys face more often and have more to fear (in every bout) from those kicks than anyone, and they don't do this. The MT coaches I speak to recommend ducking under head kicks.

Conditioned shin vis conditioned forearm - I'll bet on the shin every time. Thickness and mass are in the kickers favour. in the long run, the odds are against your forearms. Certain PARTS of the forearm against certain PARTS of the leg might have better odds, but the accuracy required might be a bit much in the frenzied chaos of an assault.

You can catch kicks with "soft hands" and shock absorption. That's what the two handed blocks in bil jee are for. The article and earlier posts were talking about trying to block with a tan sao.

I disagree that it will always be as simple as you make out. A proficient kicker will set you up with punches or combination kicks. It's not like you will always have "plenty of time". Straight punches are faster than hooks and front kicks faster thean straight punches, but WC guys all over the planet keep, and will keep, getting nailed with these "inferior" techniques. If you're finding it easy, you need to work out with some better kickers.

Still, you wanna go blocking with your arms, more power to you.

[Mr Punch]

You have some good points John, but your clip shows a not very flexible, half speed kicker skip-stepping in a telegraphed manner from a good couple of paces out in a pre-arranged drill. The 'catcher' is not moving at all, he's just catching.

A reasonable thai fighter from thai-kicking distance will nail that head if you don't have anything other than your shoulder there.

I do agree with you though that there should be many ways to practice including taking the kick on your arm, but if you don't move while you're doing it, your arm will not take the superior mass of the shin.

I have blocked unrehearsed roundhouse head-kicks coming as a combo set-up with tan before, stepping in at 45 to the oncoming leg and taking the knee. If I'm not already moving in when the kick starts it will get me. I would prefer to get in and hit them in the head with my deflecting arm in a tan position but nailed tight in to cover the bottom of my ribs (as hopefully I'll be in before it gets to my head) or a tai sao. I would prefer even more to dodge it.

The biu jee double hand block is also possible, but I don't like it personally.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey YouKnowWho,
Thanks for sharing the video.
But IMO, I wouldn't drop my hand to go around the kick and try to catch it. You want to protect your melon, so dropping your hands is a no no.
Personally, I used to keep my hands close to my body/head to help absorb the kick/punch if I couldn't move around it.

J

[Matrix]

A reasonable thai fighter from thai-kicking distance will nail that head if you don't have anything other than your shoulder there.After viewing the clip, I absolutely agree with Mat's point-of-view. Even a good TKD kicker would have taken the defender's head off. Also, you must be moving so that the power of the kick is largely offset. Standing still at the most powerful range of the kick is just asking for some serious dental work. :D

As Jeff said, I can't see any reason to drop my hands to attempt to catch a kick like that. Of course, that's just one person's opinion, OK maybe two or three people's opinion.

[Matrix]

P.S. I just had a look at another clip on the same site. Sorry, but this is just a very bad idea (http://johnswang.com/catch_low_round_house_kick.wmv)in my opinion.. :eek:

[Matrix]

In CMA, there is no "right" or "wrong" but different ways to handle the same problem. Some are more aggresive and more risk, and some are less aggressive and less risk.While I agree that there are multiple ways of handling a given situation, I would argue that there are "right" and "wrong" ways of doing things. Even amongst the "right" answers there are good-better-best solutions. The system behind <-insert CMA name here-> usuually has guiding principles that provide the structure for the system as a whole. These principles tend to define which approach is best.

In the case of the clip I selected, here are a few of the key things that bother me.
1- The defender is lowering his head and putting it forward, making it an easy target for a counter.
2- Overall balance is jeopardized by this movement as well.
3- The head is moving directly into the attack, which would have a multiplying effect on the overall force at impact, thereby assisting the attacker in knocking you out.
4- The defender is "catching" the kick long after his shin would be taken out. At the very least his stance would be disrupted.

All of these things add up to making the attacker's job that much easier. Please keep in mind that this is just my personal opinion. Your mileage may vary.

[Matrix]

Again we are talking about the risk and reward and whether it's worthy while to take that risk. In my opinion, if you can finish a fight in 3 seconds then don't wait for 5 seconds. Take your opponent down ASAP.Sure, the point it is finish it as quickly as possible. The best way to accomplish that is to move right in. Then you are in the eye of the hurricane, so to speak. Standing in the power zone of a kick is asking for trouble.

I just think that the approach shown in the video is seriously flawed. The attacker in the videos is falling backwards as he strikes. A more aggressive opponent will be driving in, as you bend down to lift the leg, the momentum of their entire body will be upon you. Their kicking leg will come down under the full force of their body weight, you won't be able to just pick it up. Then you'll be in a world of hurt. But hey .......... if you can make it work for you then more power to you.

[Matrix]

P.S. I'm leaving for Las Vegas, so I won't be able to reply for much longer. Unless I can find some access down there.

See ya'll in a week. :cool:

[anerlich]

I know and that's why it's still just "sport" and not "combat".

Meaning what? The Thai's training six hours a day for sport (it's much more than sport to the Thais, BTW), you do your six hours a week or whatever for "combat"? I'm betting the farm on him still.


In the following clip you can see that the contact point is the upper arm and not the fore arm.

Well, yeah, OK. I didn't find that kick or that clip an overly convincing proof of the efficacy of your strategy.


A cracking skull could be worse than a broken arm. Will that be a good "trade off"?

From my earlier post: "A broken forearm is probably better than a fractured skull."

If you want to pick an argument with me, suggesting I disagree with my own statements won't get you very far :p :p

[SAAMAG]

Not to sound too much like a phalace, but you know what I think is hilarious about this whole theoretical argument? That most of the people here don't actually know how to throw a thai round kick--let alone defend against one.

The kicks are powerful no doubt, and yes can break bones. But people who practice muay thai get hit with these kicks many, many, many times both in training as well as in their fights. I myself have bruises on my arms, legs, and body from taking these kicks. They hurt like hell if you take one hard--but then we are also conditioned to take them as well. We kick each other in the sides, the legs, and yes---even use a double arm block to block them when no other options are available. The obvious choice would be not to be there--I.E. to move you head out of the way or move in or counter the kick by blocking or jamming at the knee or thigh (not necessarily with your own kick either, you can do it with your arm, elbow, etc.) You can teep the body, cut kick the lower leg, you can move in to clinch and knee, you can cover with the arm as you sway to absorb the blow. Even when you "block" you're not completely stiff...you give a little to help disperse the kinetic energy. And last but not least let's not forget the ever popular take-down.

And no offense guys--but I'm sorry--gwun sao or kwan sao will NOT work against a good thai kick. You'll break your arms or wish you had. In my wing chun experience nothing is used to directly block anyway...so why would you use a gwan sao to "block" at all let alone block a round kick that's the equivelent of a baseball bat being swung at you? And let's say that it did work as it was shown in that first vid---he'd be eating a right cross a millisecond after that kick...but both the hands are used for the gwun sao? Oh well....

[Mr Punch]

Not to sound too much like a phalace, Would that be a palace, a fallacy or a phallus?


but you know what I think is hilarious about this whole theoretical argument? That most of the people here don't actually know how to throw a thai round kick--let alone defend against one. Glad you're enjoying yourself. I don't practice Thai exclusively but I practice Thai striking and kicks in my shooto class taught by a world class shooto ex-champion who has also one Thai comps in Thailand, so yes, my kicking still sucks compared to those guys but I've had lots of practice of defending against good ones, and eating them too!

And apart from theoretical arguments, what other kind can you have on the net!? LOL


The kicks are powerful no doubt, and yes can break bones. But people who practice muay thai get hit with these kicks many, many, many times both in training as well as in their fights. I myself have bruises on my arms, legs, and body from taking these kicks. They hurt like hell if you take one hard--but then we are also conditioned to take them as well. We kick each other in the sides, the legs, and yes---even use a double arm block to block them when no other options are available. The obvious choice would be not to be there--I.E. to move you head out of the way or move in or counter the kick by blocking or jamming at the knee or thigh (not necessarily with your own kick either, you can do it with your arm, elbow, etc.) You can teep the body, cut kick the lower leg, you can move in to clinch and knee, you can cover with the arm as you sway to absorb the blow. Even when you "block" you're not completely stiff...you give a little to help disperse the kinetic energy. And last but not least let's not forget the ever popular take-down.

And no offense guys--but I'm sorry--gwun sao or kwan sao will NOT work against a good thai kick. You'll break your arms or wish you had. In my wing chun experience nothing is used to directly block anyway...so why would you use a gwan sao to "block" at all let alone block a round kick that's the equivelent of a baseball bat being swung at you? And let's say that it did work as it was shown in that first vid---he'd be eating a right cross a millisecond after that kick...but both the hands are used for the gwun sao? Oh well....Good post, though I have practiced even kwan sao against roundhouses, as you say, it's not the ideal... if I use any kind of block (though I usually use the word deflection) it'll be moving in at an angle and like you say at the knee to jam them up.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"And no offense guys--but I'm sorry--gwun sao or kwan sao will NOT work against a good thai kick. You'll break your arms or wish you had." (Vankuen)


***I AGREE. Got to raise your leg to take some of the brunt of the Thai roundhouse kick. Kwan won't cut it against a powerful roundhouse. And I usually also try to capture the leg with my arm as well.

[wing_nut]

If your quick enough, you could move into your opponents center and kwan sao the knee.

[SAAMAG]

But the question wing nut is why would you want to? Are you doing a kwan sao at the knee simpy because you want to use wing chun or because it's the most efficient way to defend against it?

My understanding of wing chun is that we (as wing chunners) should use as little movement as possible to achieve the desired effect. Therefore if a defense can be made simply by leaning back, stepping in, or simply by dropping an elbow into the knee, why would you want to use two arms--tangle them up into a more time consuming position to achieve the same thing? That's the real question.

And Mat--my spell check wasn't working...I meant to say ****...but of course that's been edited as you can see.

[wing_nut]

You have a good point about the kwan sao. I only used it because it was part of the topic in the last few posts. If you can get to the knee on time, you could use one arm without a problem and hit with the other and be more effective for sure.
If you move forward with the right timing, you could get away without contact on the opponents leg (with either arm) and just use both arms for attack.
I'm not saying that I think this is the best thing to do, just another option.

[Mr Punch]

My understanding of wing chun is that we (as wing chunners) should use as little movement as possible to achieve the desired effect. Therefore if a defense can be made simply by leaning back, stepping in, or simply by dropping an elbow into the knee, why would you want to use two arms--tangle them up into a more time consuming position to achieve the same thing? Insurance. In this case two arms may be better than one. Sure stepping in is good to take some of the wind out of his sails but you want to step in with an offensive move too...

so the tan (albeit maybe nailed to your side) absorbs the kick just above the knee, the elbow goes into the soft inside of the thigh or the nuts/bladder, followed by eg, the elbow arm flicking up for an uppercut/bounce punch/lan sao and the tan hand turning into a jum to back up the unbalance... OK so we're getting too theoretical and whatiffy here, but you get my point. If the unbalance is going well, it's gonna be too difficult to head hunt too.

And it may be whatiffy but I've used it to my satisfaction anyway!

And sure, if I can I don't want to touch the leg, just take his head off with my hands... but anyone with any experience will have that covered.

[Mr Punch]

"And no offense guys--but I'm sorry--gwun sao or kwan sao will NOT work against a good thai kick. You'll break your arms or wish you had." (Vankuen)


***I AGREE. Got to raise your leg to take some of the brunt of the Thai roundhouse kick. Kwan won't cut it against a powerful roundhouse. And I usually also try to capture the leg with my arm as well.But you practice gwun sao against a middle roundhouse right?

As for the capture, that's a good point too. My shooto teacher always recommends catchinhg a midlevel roundhouse as you step away to avoid the short ribs and the brunt of the force.