Question regarding chain punching (straight punches)

[kravi]

Hey everyone, (first post)

It seems to me, across the board and particularly in my school that it is a GOOD thing to be able to chain punch. (the "wing chun" punch)

So it's a signature of the style, thus i should train it profusely.

However, i often wonder when i train alone whether i should bother practicing my chain punching, simply because i never see anybody ever using it in sparring. My background in WC only goes back about 6 months, so im fairly new, but that said i tend to lead by example.

In my school, i have never ever seen a trained fighter use the straight punch while sparring. While i realise that the straight punch is not effective in some situations because the punches would ricochet off parts of the body and consequently damage oneself - im finding it difficult to want to train the punch, simply because no body ever ever uses it in real time sparring.

In my school, every block to the blind side goes straight into a triple straight punch - but again, no one ever spars with it.

This is causing problems for me because the more research i do, the more i realise that it's an integral part of the system, and i don't want to neglect that - but at the same time, i don't want to waste my time developing a technique that might be considered in modern street fighting, or even sparring, as "obsolete"...

(For the purists, please don't label me as arrogant - i completely accept that i might be 100% wrong about all this, and if i am i expect to be corrected [but not flamed!])

Anyway, this is just my humble observation, but id be interested to know what some of you might think about this.

Cheers,

[Liddel]

Dont be like that !
"i completely accept that i might be 100% wrong about all this,"

You bring up a relevant point by the sounds of what you see but im assuming pepole at your training dont spar with bare knuckles ?

Gloves require more room and if a person is not shown how to adapt to a certain situation - in this case using gloves then........you get what you've seen"

My Sifu adapted what he calls the banana punch due to the path the fist takes... we use this anytime we have gloves over 10oz on.

In VT we use the vertical punch because of the space required to launch it (being less than the horizontal, for most peoples fists ) and because of our ideas about the support behind said punch.

Adapt to the situation. Perhaps that is what they are doing.

An action can only be deemed 'obsolete' if you cant use it, and for me it ISNT obsolete because i use it all the time. It varies for each person.
Have you asked them why they dont use it ? if so what was their reply ?
:)
Good luck

[viper]

In the school im in chain punches are used really often in sparring almost every one with more then a years experience uses them most beginner are still trying to hook and stuff when they should chain punch. I train them almost every day for the past two years ive done wing chun and ive become really fast with them im a little guy and if a bigger guy presses me I usally bust out and chain punch at him most people are caught just enough for me to gain positional supiriority. Dude train it now even if your school doesnt use it doesnt mean you cant. My sifu almost never uses the tarn sau not tan tarn but I do he says its all part of the system so use what you want of it try next time your geting pressed to chain punch at them try it and get bak to me about it.

[DRleungjan]

Hey kravi,

Hmmmm....let me throw in my 2 taels.

As I have been taught and am experiencing, first you must have belief in the system. The forms give you everything you need. My sifu always explains to us that every nook and crany of the forms have a place and a purpose...and I believe that wholeheartedly. Just because one does not see something in sparring doesn't mean it's not there. And, to tell you the truth, we are animals of habit...all of us favor different techniques for different reasons. And Liddel has also brought a very valid point about adaptation.

To execute the chain punch in any given situation is the result of timing. To me...chain punching is more of a 'set-up' technique that allows you that split second to enter into other types of techniques and hopefuly finish your opponent. It's a form of cutting through the center so-to-speak. So yes chain punching is a very integral part of the system and should be practiced diligently along with the other plethora of techniques that Wing Chun offers.

Just some humble thoughts. :)

[YongChun]

I had one student who with seven months of Wing Chun (to be fair, he was aggressive) entered the Brown belt division of an all martial arts (mostly Karate) tournament. This guy had no tournament experience but he won four out of five matches with just the charge in and chain punch. In match number five, the guy knocked him to the floor with a hook punch. The following year he entered the black belt division and again he beat four out of the five blackbelts that he fought. I don't remember how he lost to the fifth guy in the blackbelt division. So it has it's place.

I notice some Wing Chun sifu use this punch a lot in demonstrations while others rarely if ever use it. You have to use it at the right time. If there is little defence then it can be very effective. In boxing a chain kind of approach is used when you stun the guy with a hard punch first. After that you snow him with punches.

If nothing else, the chain punch is a good exercise like running except you are using your arms. Practicing 1000 chain punches a day isn't going to hurt anything. If anything you'll become quite fast and build up a bit of punching endurance.

A good fighter is hard to take out with chain punches but they still have their place. It's the fastest way to deliver multiple strikes. If Kempo people claim that they can deliver 10 strikes a second then Wing Chun people using the chain punch can deliver even more. Once you are into ten strike mode, your brain is also tied up for the duration of that punching action. So that's just one defect of relying too much on the chain punching technique.

Used at the right time, it can't be beat. Used at the wrong time, your looking for a beating. The same is true for most techniques.

Ray

[SAAMAG]

You can achieve the same result with one strong overhand than with your "ten chain punches in one second."

Not to say that the Lin wan kuen doesn't have it's place as stated. When I spar using MMA gloves or light leathers gloves, I will use wing chun techniques more often then not while exchanging hand techniques, because the gloves do not inhibit the ability to hit with the vertical punch. With 12-14 oz gloves I will switch to MT or boxing type punches because the gloves are too bulky for the wing chun punch.

Being a martial artist whose fought full contact with both styles, I can tell you right now that although the chain punch "has it's place" if you try punching with it more than a couple seconds you're going to be taken to the ground or counter punched--hard. I've used Lan Sao against chain punches and the guy proceeded to simply hit my arms until I moved and stuck an elbow in his head...ending the training session. I've used boxing hooks with almost a 100 percent success rate against chain punches, and I can't tell you how many times I've taken down someone using them (and been taken down when I used them).

Bottom line: it's up to you to decide if YOU feel they are necessary in a fight. Once you feel that you've gotten a good technique with them (I.E. good power-speed-accuracy-etc) then try them in a hard contact NHB match with a friend. See what happens then or over a few sessions with different people and then make your decision.

[anerlich]

I think the sparring protocol at many schools, including mine, makes the chain punch a difficult thing to use. If you run at the guy and throw chain punches at his head non stop, some of them are probably going to connect, and if you're doing fast chain punching the finesse of distancing and timing is harder to judge - so I foresee a few blood noses, etc., not good for student retention or the containment of Hep B. Most sparees are looking to tag the other guy rather than reduce him to a grease spot on the floor. Opinions on the right approach to sparring vary, but getting injured every session is going to impede rather than improve your training, and many students have jobs where turning up with a black eye or broken nose is a career limiting move.

The chain punching IMO is and should be a like a continuous explosion, hard to stop for both recipient ... and giver.

I think "chain punching" is as much a concept as an actual technique. one hand replacing the other as you drive into the guy with forward pressure - some of those "punches" may be deflections, presses, shock hands, etc in a sparring or defense situation.

As for legitimacy, Matt Thornton teaches the "straight blast" on Functional JKD vol 1. It don't get much more MMA real than that ;)

[Mr Punch]

I have been practicing Wing Chun for 3 years... blah blah blahThat figures.

[Mr Punch]

You can achieve the same result with one strong overhand than with your "ten chain punches in one second."What he said.

Chain punches are a good basic principle, to get you using forward energy and replacing the front hand when it stops with the next fastest weapon - often the back hand.

In practice, locking the elbow out is also good for issuing the energy out through your fist. In use, it's dangerous and counterproductive. In practice, for beginners anyway, not using your hips at all is important. In use, it's ridiculous. There are many principles it is useful to practice but not so useful as a technique.

I still practice chain punches and I think everyone should, but in a fight I'm wanting to work combos of two or three to get him down at the most, so if I have to chain punch, I've failed. And that's not going to be charging straight at him like a high school kid.

[Fajing]

What he said.

Chain punches are a good basic principle, to get you using forward energy and replacing the front hand when it stops with the next fastest weapon - often the back hand.

In practice, locking the elbow out is also good for issuing the energy out through your fist. In use, it's dangerous and counterproductive. In practice, for beginners anyway, not using your hips at all is important. In use, it's ridiculous. There are many principles it is useful to practice but not so useful as a technique.

I still practice chain punches and I think everyone should, but in a fight I'm wanting to work combos of two or three to get him down at the most, so if I have to chain punch, I've failed. And that's not going to be charging straight at him like a high school kid.

It really all depends on the fighter (LIKE MOST OF THE TIME). Some of us can successfully exectute CHAIN PUNCHES in a real life confrontation, and some cannot. We are all different and prefer/excel at different things. So basically it comes down to what you feel comfortable with. I trampled over a guy using chain punches once. He was overwhelmed. In that particular situation it worked great. Different situations call for different things. I have a friend who will bolt through his opponents techniques simply because he's huge, and then basically body slam them ect... Alot of us can't do that, but when you're BIG SHOW size, things are different. Anywho, practice your chain punches, get good with them, and try to use them in different situations, then you will know how they work for you.
:D

[wing_nut]

I used chain punches succesfully in a confrontation when this guy who obviously had intention to punch me had left himself open. I stepped in with a hook to the jaw, followed by chain punches and knocked him out. I didn't practice the hook at that time, so I'm sure it didn't do much as compared to the chain.

When I spar with my teacher and a couple of my classmates, I rarely get more than 2-3 chain punches in simply because we are contact sparring. They are not willing to let me hit them if they can help it.

I practice chain punching so that when the opportunity arises, it comes out. If it is obstructed, bong dar, lap dar, jam, elbows or what ever works to keep a flow and forward pressure.

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, sorry, the blah blah blah was rude. Let me rephrase that: I don't agree with any of what you said.
I have been practicing Wing Chun for 3 years and now have students of my own.Why? How? After three years? You must be a genius.
In my belief, the practice of numeric punches should begin early in the wc curriculum to give the student confidence that speed can produce power. No. There is no point doing fast chain punches until you know how to do chain punches correctly. The most imprtant factor in chainpunching is not speed, it is forward energy. This is a simple matter of relaxing the right muscles (the shoulders) and tensing the right muscles naturally (the chest, the upper back, the upper arms, and very importantly also for the penetration and explosiveness, the forearms).
Numeric punches have a unique property that allows you to create an openning by knocking your opponent's hands out of the way with the downward circular motion. Knocking the opponent's hands out of the way in a circular motion is unique? The downward motion is unique? What is unique here? If you can knock your opponent's hands out of the way so easily with such repetitive motions I suggest he has a bad defence/he is useless at fighting. Maybe, just maybe, you have a fantastic chain punch. I know which my money's on.

There are many ways to blast a guard, to rip it down, to trap it or to go round it. The chain punch is unique in its insistance on continuing something when often it hasn't worked the first time. It is rarely an effective fighting technique unless you are fighting someone weak and untrained.
You should practice moving your target up to down, while delivering up to 5 punches to the face down to the stomach, and down to up from the stomach up to the face. The same motion may be repeated with numeric palm and bil jee strikes. Next, try alternating phoenix eye strikes while focusing on the targets along the dim mak meridian pathways. All that combat experience and you believe focusing on targets along the dim mak pathways is the way forward? I'm sorry, but that did make me laugh.


For sparring, always remember to use the entry technique to shield yourself when counterattacking with a kick or hand strikes.****, we agree!
Keep your eyes on the knees and elbows of the limbs closest to you. They are the ones that can strike you first. Opinion is divided on where to look. I know some people who follow your advice very effectively so I'll leave it at that, despite my way being different.
If you train your eyes to detect movement, then you will stop most karate fighters and stun them with your similtaneous counterattack. Furthermore, they hate it when you get inside of them so that they can't use their spinning back kicks.It's that easy kids. If I started spouting **** in one sentence about how to defeat a TKDer you'd call me out! There are all kinds of karateka: you are talking nonsense.


Mat is an idiot...All that experience and you still don't know wtf you're talking about?! Astounding.

[Mr Punch]

**** you, Mat!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're an *******. You belong in Tokyo with the rest of the fudgepacking *******s. I hope that you come to the ghetto here in the US someday so that you can get your sorry ass kicked by someone who really knows how to deal with arrogant *******s like you.
Man, you're so hard AND well-informed.

Who are those fudgepacking *******s? The Japanese? Way to go you dumb racist ****.

You're twice as arrogant as I am to make any assumptions about me. So what if you've done all this and all that and lived to shout your mouth off about it? You've given up on pretending that you anything about the subject you're teaching and started rabbiting on about guns. I grew up in the ghetto in the UK, and before you say anything you don't ****ing know anything about it, so shut the **** up. I've had to disarm/separate people, and fight h2h on the street, in the bars, I've had to defend a sempai's house, chase people out of mine... Those are just some things I've had to deal with in everyday life... I've trained aikido and jutsu and karate and all kinds of **** for 15 years... so what?!!

And don't you be speaking for Phil Redmond, who I've shown nothing but respect for cos he doesn't talk **** like people like you. And don't mail me again privately you balless ****: if you've got something to say say it in the open.

[Ultimatewingchun]

SD:

You're obviously a TWC guy, based upon your posts talking about entry techniques, looking at elbows and knees, etc. And as you may know, I've been doing TWC for over 22 years now, and have been good friends (and a partner running a school here in NYC) with Phil Redmond back in the day, before Phil left NY. Phil and I are still best of friends.

But I also have communicated with Mat a number of times on this forum...and one of my very best students is in Japan right now (Kimathi Innis - the son of C.O.R.E.'s Roy Innis)...has worked out/sparred with Mat a few times...and has told me that Mat's a good guy and has skills, which is the same impression I've gotten on this forum. And Mat has had good things to say about Ki also.

This argument between the two of you is turning ugly, and it's not really necessary.:(

Chain punching has it's place, but from the TWC point of view, you FINISH with them - you don't usually lead with them. Using the machine gun approach, and with forward movement from the hips/legs - they can be very effective. But they need to be set up first by other moves; just coming in with them from a distance will only work against an inexperienced fighter or someone who has been caught off guard and has never seen it before.

[splodge]

You are right in that chain punching is a valuable tool to have in your armoury and does form an integral part of the wing chun system. If your school practices chain punching whilst doing drills but nobody uses it in sparring then that is a problem in my eyes. The fact that you practice this technqiue indicates that your Sifu has an understanding of how it can and should be used effectively and so I would approach him about it and ask his thoughts.

Chain punching in an excellent tool for both inside and outside of your opponent and the flurry can often upset any rythmn your opponent may have. It can be used in almost any situation effectively and is also very useful when you are running into problems, you have probably heard the phrase 'if in doubt, chain punch' and I feel there is a valid reason for that, it creates forward motion and puts your opponent into a reactive state which is good for you to exploit especially with traps and when done correctly the punches will knock away or bridge incoming strikes as well as protect your mid section.

A few main things to look out for when using this technique is to make sure you do not over commit, look out for side movement from your opponent, leg kicks and circular attacks. Basically if you do not just rush in and do not over commit it is a valuable tool that is hard to defend and can often turn a fight.

Keep practising it and try to implment it in your sparring and free fighting sessions.

Splodge

[lawrenceofidaho]

Being a martial artist whose fought full contact with both styles, I can tell you right now that although the chain punch "has it's place" if you try punching with it more than a couple seconds you're going to be taken to the ground or counter punched--hard. I've used Lan Sao against chain punches and the guy proceeded to simply hit my arms until I moved and stuck an elbow in his head...ending the training session. I've used boxing hooks with almost a 100 percent success rate against chain punches, and I can't tell you how many times I've taken down someone using them (and been taken down when I used them).
My personal experiences also resemble what Van has written above.

-L

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . .Chain punching has it's place, but from the TWC point of view, you FINISH with them - you don't usually lead with them. Using the machine gun approach, and with forward movement from the hips/legs - they can be very effective. But they need to be set up first by other moves; just coming in with them from a distance will only work against an inexperienced fighter or someone who has been caught off guard and has never seen it before.
Dang, Victor, you beat me to the punch. :D That was perfectly stated.
Phil

[Sihing73]

Hello,

IMHO chain punching was never meant to be the unending series of punches which so many seem to believe in. Chanin Punching is a concept which teaches continues attack. In order to be truly effective the energy one is extending should be flexible and able to adapt to any situation. For example, while it may be a good thing to be able to punch 90 times, why not change your punch into a lop or elbow etc and end the fight quicker.

Just my opinion but I always figured the idea behind a a good exchange would be two to possible three "chain" punches to the same area in quick succession. Not 5 or more as I believe this is unrealisitc. Consider what happens if the head, for example is struck. The brain sloshes around in all the fluid in the skull. Now think of the effect of having two well placed punches hit essentially the same spot almost instantly. The end result is what would make the "chain" punch so effective. Wing Chun is about efficiency so why not train to have a rapid succession of two or three well placed "chain" punches rather than try to fire off an excessive amount?

Just my opinion but I feel that those who actually believe in the "reality" of unloading more than perhaps three maximum chain punches in a real fight have either been extremely lucky or never fought for real. Of course I could be wrong. Training to perform multiple chain punches across the room or against the wallbag or a partner has its place but reality it is not.

[SAAMAG]

So then long story short, based on the concensus here:

Chain punches have their place, but do have a limited use in real combat.

It's best to use chain punches in a finishing aspect for TWC guys, and as an opening technique / pressuring technique by others (JKD for example).

Chain punches of more then 3 lead to counter attacks by offsetting them or going low for the takedown.

Chain punching's goal is not necessarily to hit with every punch but to create forward energy.

[cobra]

In my opinion you don't enter with chain punches, but enter with a punch and if or when it is deflected, the other is coming through right behind it. If the way is free, then go forward, would mean that if you are not deflected or stopped with the first punch then the 2nd and 3rd would come through following the same principle. You shouldn't enter with chain punches because it gives away what you are doing. Timing is crucial here and entering should be practiced regularly so you know your distance and timing.

Never throw a targetless punch is another saying that comes to mind regarding whether or not you are trying to hit the person or merely creating forward energy. Your goal should be to hit with every punch!

[AndrewS]

Lemme chime in here, just so the TWC crew, EBMAS, LTWT, VT, and a couple of other lines are agreeing. . .

Chain punching is a basic principle, but coming in on a straight line with the same attack over and over again is way to get seriously tooled by any player. If you're *much* slicker than the other guy, and break their will and balance with your lead shot, *and* are coming from the inside, chain punching can be effective (i.e. if you're much better you can pull it off). If you wind up on the outside, and your punches have anything that makes someone want to cover, they'll cover and you're wasting energy on bad targets (and passing up the chance for lifting punches to the kidneys, which should be viewed as a crime, IMHO).


All this being said, we're talking about sparring and dealing with someone who has game. That's different from streetfighting, and different from getting a beginner to learn to deal with aggression. From a streetfighting perspective, bridging is less important, generally the other person is coming to you, not faking in and out, and messing with lines. The chain punch is a solid basic response teaching the beginning student to attack in response to aggression, rather than act defensively and play catch up. As attacks go, chain punching should leave you pretty covered against most tackles/upperbody takedowns, and should beat wide shots to the punch, countering by jacking the head back.

My take- chain punch=good tool for beginners to learn, not a be-all end-all.

Andrew 'A uniter, not a divider'

[Ultimatewingchun]

Excellent points on the differences between chain punching from the inside vs. the outside, Andrew. In fact the whole post rocked!

Interesting point about using chain punches as a counter to an opponent's attacks - rather than playing defense or catch up. I would say, however, that I prefer to punch into their attack selectively, ie.- on the line their on (my right punch attacks the line his left is coming on, etc.) - rather than just chain punching at random into his attack.

Nonetheless, that's a minor, not a major difference. The principle behind your idea is very sound.

[AndrewS]

Hey Victor,

I'd agree that that's a valid strategy, and am not a fan of random chain punching. I could argue both for and against it- cover the line with the lead shot (man) vs. land the lead shot and cover with the back hand (wu).

For me, that's a bit of later priority. The way I see it is as a progression of priorities for a beginner-

1). Learn to recognize the situation and attack, try to have some sense of distance. This is how to shut down the whole fight- the Geoff Thompson/BlitzDefense thang. Screw this up and the first place you notice the problem is on your face.

2). Learn not to come apart when you get clocked.

3). Get your d*mn hands up and get them up aggressively to make a problem for the other person, occupying a volume of space so as to keep you covered- if they have a problem to deal with, they're less likely to cause you one.

4). Move the h*ll in with some balance and aggression, keeping the pressure on.

In some ways, I like Krav's approach to teaching this best- get them aggressive and busy forward with everything they have at first, then work on technique later. This is more practical for the person who just wants a year of self-defense training than really tweaking their mechanics and timing. In the long run, IMO, a good foundation builds more quality, and fewer things need to be trained out when trying to take your skills to the next level. As such, the chain punch is a nice comprimise- taught right it should build and reinforce mechanics which are useful for future WC development, while providing an immediately useful tool.

Good topic, btw.

Andrew

[TenTigers]

good points-especially the last few posts, but I think alot of people are missing a crucial point. Duncan Leung said this about chain punching, which pretty much sums it up: "Once I'm in your horse, you can't stop me"
Too many people attempt chain punching without proper set up/entry, or from outside critical distance. This is why a certain school in NYC, which will go unnamed, gave WC a bad rep for many years. People used to say, "Oh wing chun guys are easy to beat. All you have to do is kick them in the stomach" Victor might know which school I mean.
But enter, and step into the opponent's horse and chain punches are "almost" unstoppable. You need to be right through the opponent, not simply standing in front of him. Anything else is asking to get taken out. The problem is nobody wants to admit that any technique, no matter which style, is useless without the guts to use it. "Yat dahm, Yee Lik, Sam Gung-Fu" Courage first, strength second, technique third.
(I'm not a wing chun guy, but I play one on TV):D

[Liddel]

Some good points mentioned and i agree with most of them for use in different situations... Its a versitle weapon.

Just as an add on to the point about chain punching not being a endless barage of attacks... there is a VT saying which is an important part of my VT formula.

Roughly translated it goes " if you get too greedy with punches you should be careful of your empty space."
VT boffins here may be able to clarify the actual saying and translation.

Even though im a VT man this does not mean i only use the VT chain punch, i can adapt the idea of what its supposed to be used for an apply it......

Just look at the formidable Vitor Belfort, his hands are lightning fast and heavy. He uses the 'Blast' which in theory serves the same purpose of the chain punch... i use his way when i wear big gloves.

He knocked out a very good fighter with it because of TIMING when he fought Vanderle Silva (sp?), anyone see that fight ? AWESOME PUNCHING DISPLAY IMO
:D

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Learn to recognize the situation and attack, try to have some sense of distance. This is how to shut down the whole fight- the Geoff Thompson/BlitzDefense thang. Screw this up and the first place you notice the problem is on your face" (AndrewS)


***AGAIN, good points...Going in to "stop the fight" (as one of my TWC brothers likes to call it) is just another way of expressing the same idea. As you said earlier, in real streetfights this is key - since both parties are usually moving towards each other and there's not much dancing around.

And Lidell's mention of Vitor Belfort is right on the money (although I believe that was a different Silva he beat, not Vanderlai. LOL ;) ).

Belfort is an excellent example of what I was trying to say earlier in this thread - he first rocks somebody (usually with a rear cross) - and then quickly follows up with a barrage of horizontal chain punches with lots of forward movement with his legs and hips to finish them off.

[stricker]

hopefully im gonna see vitor blast a few out in the flesh on saturday night :D

chain punching is only a certain amount of use, ive been told exactly the same thing by my wing chun teacher and my mma/thai coach and thats to hit hi lo hi lo and mix the shots up. ie punching 5 different targets once each is much better than hitting the same target 5 times in a row. I think it has a neurological effect as well as maybe helping to keep them off balance. but yeah chain punches can be good, especially as andrew says for begginners. ive seen a boxer use them too, not the same mechanics obviously but more the straight blast idea.

[Fajing]

punching 5 different targets once each is much better than hitting the same target 5 times in a row. I think it has a neurological effect as well as maybe helping to keep them off balance.

Right on! Toss those chain punches at random targets, up and down. Hard to block/dodge. :)