Speed is not important

[Pilgrim]

I think superior position beats superior speed. Position makes one protected/covered/shielded and it's easier to respond to the movement of the opponents.

[_William_]

Clearly, being both weak and slow is the way to go

[IronFist]

^ Yeah, as long as your technique is good :p

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

my buddy used to take speed and he thought he was invincible.

RIP

[SevenStar]

What if you don't have the speed to get into the proper position in time?

[Pilgrim]

WELL SPEED IS IMPORTANT BUT POSITION CAN BEAT SUPERIOR SPEED. NOT FAST ENOUGH, THERE MAY BE A WAY TO DEAL WITH THAT. WHEN FIGHTTING CAN YOU CONTROL THE DISTANCE SO YOU CAN'T BE REACHED BY YOUR OPPONENT? aRE YOU IN THE HABIT OF HAVING ONE HAND HIGH,THE OTHER LOW OR ARE BOTH HANDS UP AT THE SAME TIME OR LOW AT THE SAME TIME. THE LOWER YOU ARE TO THE OPPONENT MAKES YOU HARDER TO HIT.

AN EXPERIMENT: PUT A HAND UP SO YOU CAN BLOCK YOUR FACE AND HAVE A PARTNER TRY TO HIT YOUR FACE. CHANCES ARE HE WON'T BE ABLE TO DO SO. EVEN GETS HARDER IF YOU BLOCK AND MOVE YOUR TARGET.JUST AN EXAMPLE OF POSITION. YEAH OF COURSE YOU HAVE TO GET THERE BUT THAT'S WHY WE TRAIN.

PILGRIM

[IronFist]

^ How fast can you hit the capslock key? :D

[hen]

Hi people...

Just a thought:

YEAH OF COURSE YOU HAVE TO GET THERE BUT THAT'S WHY WE TRAIN.

Get there - what with ? Speed may help.
Train - what ? Speed may help.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

You can be slow, have bad technique, and be weak as long as you have a good CHI BLAST!!!

[bodhitree]

every aspect of fighting is equally important and they all deserve to be trained. We all have certain attributes that are stronger for us, but we still cannot only rely on one thing as an end all. If you want a good fighter, you'll have someone who is strong, fast, has good endurance, good technique, you need to work on the complete package. If you neglect something, chances are that something will be exploited by someone.

[hen]

hmm

I second that!!!

[Wong Fei Hong]

boddhitree is right on this one there is no such thing as superior position , i donno i like doggy missionary crazy monkey frog :D
but seriously you need speed timing power body mechanics. Positioning is simply the name of the move you will perform. You need the other 4 i mentioned above to make the position youve ended up in effective.

Speed helps you get where you are going first.
Timing helps you move in between his movements.
The above two make sure you hit him before he hits you.
Body mechanics helps you deliver the move properly, its no good punching with a bent wrist as a basic example.
And power is what does the damage which is also dependant on the other 3 factors.
These two are what makes sure when you hit him he stays down.

You see in one case if you have speed and timing you can hit him all you like but it wont do the damage. If you got the other two gotta wait and pray until you land the k0 punch.

You need all of them.

The position is the technique you choose to apply all these above to, now without the above, technique is useless its like getting a pro fighter who has the above, to fight with an uncoordinated person just by telling the person, position and fight strategy is most important.

Also position is taught in all styles the above 4 you need to aquire with years of training.

(well apart from if you are a ninja and sneak up behind the guy which means position wins ;) )

[Pilgrim]

William-never said being weak and slow was a good thing, so don't know how you infer that. Some people have too much imagination and not enough common sense.
Ironfist-as long as technique is good is true. You've probably been doing kungfu for a while and I'm sure your technique has improved with practice. Remember how you did the first form you learned and how you do it now. Not so good in the beginning but looks and feels better with practice the techniques improve. Remember how you used to get hit in sparring in the beginning? Now you're probably not that much faster but your position and technique has improved and you don't get smacked as frequently.
Iron Eagle-you must be reading between the lines and not the words since I never mentioned anything about being slow, bad technique, or a Qi blast.

Doesn't wingchun have the concept of taking the centerline/controlling center-isn't that an example of superior position beats speed? Didn't Yip Man play with the younger, faster, stronger Bruce Lee in chi sao? And humble Bruce.

Working on strength, speed, anerobic and arobic endurance, flexibility, Qi Gong is always important.

Two fighters of equal speed, strength, flexibility, attitude, and whatever fight and the one with better technique and position beats the one who relies on speed and strength. Ask you Sifus, REALLY ASK, I'd like to hear what your teachers have to say about that idea. Pilgrim

[Wong Fei Hong]

the example of wing chun position vs speed is a good one,

if you ask a wing chun guy he will tell you because the punch is in the middle its better positioned and its straight so its faster compared to a boxers punch . If you ask a boxer he will tell you his right cross or straight is faster as it uses more muscle groups to push off and because of the positioning the boxers cross will hit from a bit further than the wc guys punch.

At the end of the day though dude if the wc guys uses the above 4 points i mentioned he will beat the boxer if the boxer is moer trained in them he will win.


Two fighters of equal speed, strength, flexibility, attitude, and whatever fight and the one with better technique and position beats the one who relies on speed and strength. Ask you Sifus, REALLY ASK, I'd like to hear what your teachers have to say about that idea. Pilgrim

As for this statement its true but the problem is that at the highest levels everyone uses the same positioning so what sets them apart is the other 4 elements.

You see at the highest levels of martial arts or martial sports there isnt much difference between styles in terms of positioning , they all use techniques to position themselves in a position where the other guy cant hit them and they can hit him, wether its a boxing blind spot a kickboxing counter, a karate block on the outside a jkd trap a wing chun blind side etc The distancing and body positioning is 90% the same in all these styles at the highest levels . Each style favours a certain flavour or certain movement but at the end of the day the basic core concept is the same.
Hope this makes more sense

[hen]

Hi Pilgrim,

I second that too and totally agreed.

I also like to say, 2 person with equal skills/techniques/styles/& wot ever/ in play, the person with greater speed will have advantage.

Superior Body position is a relative thing, we move our bodie to such positions that are advantageous to us and bad for our opponent. When we move, just sufficiently faster than our opponent, we maintain advantage.

Simply questions should not be taken to Sifu.

Hen

[Pilgrim]

Hey wong fei hung
I haven't seen lots of styles but I'd agree with what you say. Some seem close like wing chun, closer still like cimande or sera, and ****her away like Eagle Claw/Northern Shaolin but the idea that when one is good one uses his technique to enter , control, and smack is a common denominator for all styles. And I think all styles that concentrate on fighting and not K2/cage fighting ( and those folks are really strong and in shape)end up being close in for the balls styles.

Liked I've said in an earlier post, I'm guilty of using provoking statements to start threads , at least in regards to strength, speed, whatever is not important.

And it would be cool for more Sifu's to give their inputs.

Pilgrim

[Pilgrim]

Still think at my level of ability that position is more important then speed. If I have position I'm less likely to fish when blocking,you know -try to block but miss or block too fast and miss. You know, the first one I get hit cause I'm slow and the other I get hit cause I was too fast and miss, in both situations I still get a bloody nose or a pain in my groin.

I'm basically talking about being in a place where I don't rely on speed and timing to block. Cause if I have position I can hit.
Pilgrim

[Wong Fei Hong]

Dude what your saying is right in the beggining you have to learn positioning, then you add speed to it with control, then you start doing it with power and less control. Then you do away with control and play full speed full power full contact.
The hardest thing to get right is the timing,it comes last. if everyone could get the timing down correctly all boxing matches would last under 30 seconds.


If you start off with speed it all becomes a big mess. because you are trying to do something fast and you dont even have it ingrained what you want to do