How do you see chi sao?

[curtis]

Hello everyone.

Wing chun dose chi sao, but every one looks at it differently, so I'm asking what is chi soa To you. What are the goals,as far as you see it?

some video clips I've seen look like Sumo wrestling, others look more like a street fight. still others...

Ok I will try to limit the scope of this message.

When dose Chi sao stop? once the first firm strike has landed? or when someone has been pushed out side a box???
I was taught the game ends on the first firm strike, and should begin again on rotation.
As I see it the goal is to maintain an offensive and defensive potential while in contact with an opponent.My goal is to maintain control while in contact, not to lose it because of striking or defending.
but it seems not everyone sees it the same way.

So again I ask how do you see it?
Any and all commentary is welcome.
C.A.G.

[YongChun]

Here is one view:

The purpose of chi sau is to teach you what to do once contact has been made. The other part of Wing Chun is the art and skill of making contact.

When two good practitioners engage in a fight and are in contact then it is chi sau until one party is out of action (real or imagined ).

When training however, chi sau can continue even though either or both parties have been theoretically killed off as in chops to the throat, thumbs to the eyes or punches to the nose. Perhaps there is a momentary mental acknowledgement of a stop even though the action may continue in a continuous way.

Ray

[marcus_pasram]

Hi,

Your opponent is not going to tell you where he will attack, but he will attack you through exposed gates. You can learn how to cover these exposed areas. SiFu Duncan Leung and SiFu Allan Lee both approach Chi Sau from a pov of coverage.

Single sticky hands where one student does bong Sau, Tan Sau, palm strike and the other balances with punch, Fuk Sau and jut Sau is the first approach to understanding coverage and leverage of the tan, punch, bong and fuk hands.

Similarly, Lap Sau is another platform to learn about coverage through continuous motion. Later on, it comes to full two hand chi sau where the students progress their understanding.

Here is a clip (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8746679564261507622&q=wing+chun+allan+lee) from a recent open house in New York explaining this idea.

/Marcus

[sihing]

I think Chi-sao means many things to many people. To bottleneck it and say it is strictly this or that is incorrect IMO. At times it can be used as a drill to train certain attributes (forward pressure, sensitivity, coordination, structure, etc..), and at other times you learn actual fighting applications. There are so many variations out there today, so I choose to look at it in a variety of ways. But like anything it is not the be all and end all of WC, and it has to be practiced with everything else. Fighting situations do not always begin being in contact with your opponent, sometimes, or most of the time there is space between you and your attacker. If chi-sao is all you know then you may be lost at this stage or range of combat..

James

[wei wu wei]

Chi Sao is a means by which to create good habits.

[curtis]

Thank you all for your replies.
I agree, on most points,But I guess it is the curse of wingchun. everyone see's everything in a holey different light. there is no one standard.
Every Master dose things his own way, even if they all were taught by the same teacher.YipMan.

I see chi soa as a drill (a very good game) to teach the art of trapping as well as the refinement of, closing down of your gates/ primeters.

[Matrix]

Chi Sao is a means by which to create good habits.
Brief. To the point. Right on, IMO.

[ghostofwingchun]

Chi Sao is a means by which to create good habits.

This answer intrigues me . . . can you tell me what makes some thing a good habit or not a good habit? How do I know if I have good habits? How can I tell if others have good habits? Can chi sao only create good habits?

Thanks,

Ghost

[sihing]

This answer intrigues me . . . can you tell me what makes some thing a good habit or not a good habit? How do I know if I have good habits? How can I tell if others have good habits? Can chi sao only create good habits?

Thanks,

Ghost

Good question. To me good habits are those things that have two elements present at all times. Movements/Concepts/Principals/Techniques that work for everyday people when applied to combat (Effectiveness), and Movements/Concepts/Principals/Techniques that reflect less and more direct movement (Efficiency), are good habits to develop in combat. Specifically, Chi-sao, teaches both elements to a certain degree, but not the totality of combat, other things are required to complete the cycle.

These things are measurable ( for example, more complicated applications are less effective and efficient) so you can look at yourself and others and know from how they move if what they are doing (regarding the system they practice, not necessarily the individual themselves) is regarded as someone with good habits.

In General, someone that trains regularly and with intensity, has good habits, but training alone is not always the way to effective fighting. Sooner or later, what you do and how you do it comes into play. Anyone can train hard, but if they have no idea on how to train and what they are doing and training towards, then the progress is not as signifigant. Follow someone that has the skills you want, as they have travelled the path before you, and can lead you there faster if they are free with the information and skills they have.

James

[ghostofwingchun]

Thank you Mr. sihing for your response! Can you explain to me please what you mean by everyday people? How can I measure effectiveness? Maybe more complicated works for some reason than simple . . . is amount of movement the only factor? I am trying to understand how I can know if I have good habits or bad habits . . . so I need some way to know if something is a good habit or bad habit . . . how do I tell? You are right . . . it does seem sensible to follow some one with skills you want. This is helpful.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Matrix]

Can chi sao only create good habits?Good chi sao will create good habits, bad chi sao will create or reinforce bad habits. It's like the forms or any other training element, if you repeat good structure and timing you will reinforce those positive qualities. Chi sao adds something that other training forms tend not to.


. . . can you tell me what makes some thing a good habit or not a good habit? How do I know if I have good habits? How can I tell if others have good habits?This is one of the most helpful and unique training aspects that you gain from chi sao. You can literally "feel" good structure, timing and forward energy, etc when you train chi sao with a skilled partner. As a basic example, if you have the bad habit of letting your elbow float out on your tan sao, your brother or sister will let you know this by driving a punch into the center of you chest, because their forward energy will automatically fill in the hole they feel in your structure. So you will learn the good habit of keeping that elbow in, but it may take a few reminders. ;)
You will know that you have good habits when you can maintain control of the center, and easily feel when your partner attempts to make a move. If you are too stiff in your structure, you will feel very little if anything - you may also find that your shoulders get tired after short periods of chi sao training.

Keep in mind that chi sao has a progession of its own. You start with the basic rolling and add levels of complexity as your skill level improves.

Of course, you will also have your sifu to correct your habits, and it's good for him to see how you move your structure in a more dynamic context. The trained eye can really pick these things up quite easily.

[sihing]

Thank you Mr. sihing for your response! Can you explain to me please what you mean by everyday people? How can I measure effectiveness? Maybe more complicated works for some reason than simple . . . is amount of movement the only factor? I am trying to understand how I can know if I have good habits or bad habits . . . so I need some way to know if something is a good habit or bad habit . . . how do I tell? You are right . . . it does seem sensible to follow some one with skills you want. This is helpful.

Thanks,

Ghost

Everyday people are people like you and me. People that only have limited amounts of training time and interest. To me, if something Martial Arts related does not work for the average person (after some understanding and practice with it) then it is not effective. IMO there are differences regarding effectiveness between Martial Arts. Wing Chun is one of the most effective arts if understood and absorbed.

If the movements work better and efficiently (which basically means less movement and effort), you have effectiveness, its as simple as that. Much easier to explain in person.

The reason some more complicated things work is the individual. I never look at individuals, but what the system they practice teaches. Efficiency and Effectiveness are what is key IMO.

Through experience and exposure you learn what "good habits" are. Investigate and understand what you are learning, and what the other Arts teach and eventually you will learn what works and what doesn't for most people. Remember there will always be exceptional people in every Martial Art that can make things work for them, due to their love and dedication to that respective art.

Gotta run....
James

[Ultimatewingchun]

I think that Ray (YongChun) really put his finger on it with this remark:

"The purpose of chi sau is to teach you what to do once contact has been made."

As a main frame of reference. And within that frame many concepts, strategies, and techniques are found.

What I would like to add, however, is the important understanding that chi sao only teaches what very close range, limb-to-limb contact reflex fighting can be about.

It will not cover longer, non contact ranges; and in fact, trying to simply glue the concepts learned in chi sao onto longer range fighting can be counter productive and inefficient. There is some overlap, (centerline, gates, etc.)...but at longer ranges these concepts have to be used somewhat differently - and other concepts, strategies, and techniques not necessarily found in chi sao at all need to be applied (other types of footwork, as well as longer range punching and kicking techniques)...

If you want to maximize your fighting potential.

[Matrix]

It will not cover longer, non contact ranges; and in fact, trying to glue the concepts learned in chi sao onto longer range fighting can be counter productive and inefficient. Non-contact range is less of a concern for some reason. Once in contact range (long or short) the situation changes. If you're merely "gluing" concepts into fighting then I am not at all surprised that they would be ineffective. Besides, no one is saying that Chi Sao is the end-all and be-all of training. It is just another tool to develop good skills. We need to use the right tool for the right job. As the saying goes, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, all you problems tend to look like nails".

[sihing]

All fighting essentially ends up close range. But not all confrontations begin in close. So you have to know about alignment and postioning concerning yourself and your opponent at the longer ranges. The key is to know how to enter safely and end up in a position to your advantage. Once there chi-sao helps tremendously. Being a step in closer than a boxer makes it more difficult for your opponent to react (unless of course they have similar skill sets, which is uncommon), and is one of the underlying concepts of the Wing Chun system, closer range fighting.

James

[wei wu wei]

The notion that Chi Sao only trains contact reflex in close range is a fallacy. Chi Sao also trains longer range fighting principles. At its simplest, it teaches that at the non-contact range one should be closing and attempting to hit.

If you believe that it only trains contact reflex then may I ask what you would do in the event that your Chi Sao opponent withdraws his arms? Do you stand and wait to engage by way of poon sau or do you rush forwards to hit him? Hopefully the latter. If not perhaps revisit the maxim "Lat Sau Jik Chung."

As an example; A and B are rolling. B suddenly withdraws an arm. A should feel this and srike.

A and B continue to roll. B suddenly withdraws both arms. A reacts automatically by hitting continuously.

A and B continue to roll. B suddenly withdraws his arms and simultaneously steps back. A uses his longest weapon to attack (as he is outside of punching range), his kick (using the motion to perhaps shift forwards and continue the attack with his arms).

Surely this validates the framework of Chi Sao being used to train non-contact reflexes to hit using longer range weapons.

Similarly there is nothing stopping the use of Chi Sao as a frame for experimenting the evolution of movement, for example, from close range to clinch range, so on and so forth.

p.s. to revisit my previous post regarding good habits; a good habit is one which achieves the desired purpose using the most appropriate means. This includes immediately seizing an opportunity to attack as well as reacting appropriately to stimulus provided by your opponent, in order to counter attack.

Alternatively Chi Sao teaches good habitson the basis that as you continue to develop, bad habits are either avoided altogether or they are discarded, through a shedding process, leaving only the most deisred traits. This shedding process usually depends on the calibre of students with whom you roll.

Additionally, Chi Sao is a tool for neuro-associative conditioning, allowing non-voluntary action based on kinaesthetic stimulus. This is where the idea of 'hitting automatically', or 'without the intention to hit' comes into play.

[Matrix]

If you believe that it only trains contact reflex then may I ask what you would do in the event that your Chi Sao opponent withdraws his arms? Do you stand and wait to engage by way of poon sau or do you rush forwards to hit him? Hopefully the latter. If not perhaps revisit the maxim "Lat Sau Jik Chung."Hi wei wu wei,
In this example, I still consider the opponent to be in contact range, the fact they withdraw their arms only permits me to fill the gap without any resistance. I strike to the centerline until contact is made - this could be an arm or the center of their mass - it's irrelavent in either case since I am just taking the center, and will make my next move based upon what the opponent tells me at that point.

I think Victor is referring to a situation where an opponent is making an entering move, such as a kick or maybe shooting in.

You speak of poon sau, which I think of as the earliest stages of chi sau, maybe even pre-chi sao. It's just rolling, not dynamic enough yet.

BTW, in case my comments are not clear enough, I am in agreement with your post. :) I particuarly like your comment on "neuro-associative conditioning". It's a very important skill that is developed through chi sao. I am not aware of any other drill that trains this attribute so well. You should be aware that several in this forum have a dimmer view of chi sao. I think that when we use common terms, we don't all necessarily common experience and therefore come to different conclusions on that basis.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The notion that Chi Sao only trains contact reflex in close range is a fallacy. Chi Sao also trains longer range fighting principles. At its simplest, it teaches that at the non-contact range one should be closing and attempting to hit.

If you believe that it only trains contact reflex then may I ask what you would do in the event that your Chi Sao opponent withdraws his arms?" (www)


***IT'S NOT ABOUT a chi sao opponent that might withdraw his arms. As Matrix correctly points put, I'm referring to actual fighting/sparring that starts from a longer non-contact distance than simply a chi sao "match" wherein one guy (who's already standing VERY close to the opponent) withdraws his arms from contact.

[ghostofwingchun]

A very interesting discussion! Thank you wei wu wei and everyone else for your replies! wei wu wei you said that a good habit is one which achieves the desired purpose using the most appropriate means . . . I can see how result is involved . . . but how can I know if it is by most appropriate means . . . what do you mean by most appropriate means? How do I know it is most appropriate . . . maybe there is something else that I don't know about . . . can you explain this for me? Can you also explain to me how chi sao trains principles . . . principle is idea so how do you train idea?

Ultimatewingchun are you saying that noncontact and contact fighting involve different application of same principles or are different principles involved . . .and do you think that different techniques are needed for those two situations? How can I tell which principles or techniques apply to contact and which to noncontact? Can you help explain?

Thanks,

Ghost

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Ultimatewingchun are you saying that noncontact and contact fighting involve different application of same principles or are different principles involved . . .and do you think that different techniques are needed for those two situations? How can I tell which principles or techniques apply to contact and which to noncontact? Can you help explain?"


***I'M SAYING THAT IS A MIX OF BOTH,ghost...The following is from a thread I started some time ago entitled "WING CHUN BOXING" :



I'd like to go into some detail about certain "evolving" uses of Wing Chun. Without going too much into exactly where, how, or from whom this comes from...

I've been using certain techniques and principles that resemble boxing somewhat...and yet are still very much Wing Chun in orientation.

It concerns NOT trying to simply attack the "center" of the opponent. But rather to also look upon both of his arms (particularly near his shoulders)... as vertical centerlines running down toward his legs.

I'm in a front stance - whatever front stance. Could be a left front stance vs. his left front; or it could be my left front stance vs. his right front.

Either way, my two arms are matched up against his (ie.- my left arm vs. his right arm) - and it is fighting his right arm for CONTROL of the vertical centerline that I just described...while my right arm is fighting his left arm for control of the other vertical centerline.

(All of this is being done IN ADDITION TO my main centerline that runs down the actual center of my body).

So at the moment I'm talking about 3 centerlines...with special emphasis on the two outside lines.

It's as if I'm dueling with a foil in each hand against his two foils simultaneously.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT I'LL CONSTANTLY JUST CHASE HIS HANDS...

On the contrary, - suppose he just dropped his right hand lead from his guard position right down to his side - I wouldn't chase his arm/hand - I would simply punch into the line that is now completely open with my left fist (but I'd probably throw a low to medium height punch - not a head shot - so as to maintain control (and occupy) the line if he decided to immediately come back up again with that hand that he dropped.

Furthermore...I would NOT be moving toward him with my MAIN centerline directly facing his center...I would be in a more basic boxing type pose - which means that - in the example I just gave of him dropping his right arm down - and I was in a left lead stance...the left punch I would throw would look like a boxer's stiff straight lead - with body torgue and with the punch being thrown horizontally. (Not the vertical wing chun sun punch).

Because I'm assuming that the distance would require this type of punch (for extra reach). I'm not assuming that I'm already in a very close limb-to-limb contact or trapping range.

Which is a whole other issue to be addressed - distancing and footwork from a longer than the usual wing chun infight distance.

I'm using such a longer range "wing chun boxing" type strategy as a means to get closer to the inside close quarter position - while hopefully also landing punches (and possibly kicks - including roundhouse kicks)....as well as maybe beginning to trap, pin, pak, or lop an arm....but most of all - by CONTROLLING, OCCUPYING, AND GOING FORWARD on a "centerline".

In other words - I'm establishing a bridge through the use of longer range boxing technique - BUT GUIDED BY WING CHUN CENTERLINE PRINCIPLES.

(Or central line principles...take your pick. But's it's still Wing Chun).

And yet it's also something a little different than what some may have considered Wing Chun to be in the past.

One more note:

I will also oftentimes purposely throw horizontal longer range boxing type punches into the very lines that he may be covering with a tight defense so as to purposely create a bridge (and a "centerline") to try and take control of. I'm forcing his arms to either engage mine or run the risk of taking a hit to the body or head - because the punches are directly on one (or both) of these outside centerlines - and are therefore the shortest distance between the proverbial two points.

[curtis]

Hello guys!

I believe if Chi soa is done correctly you and your opponent become one, You sick together.feeling (or becomeing one with the opponent.) who ever breaks the contact,will be the one who is struck first.

The question if opponent A pulls his arm away,I think You should feel the movement,striking him as he moves backward.

I find most people when given a chance to strike will violate there perimeters to get the strike in, In most cases speed alown works, but if chi soa is done correctly ,you can lesson to the oppenant and feel the self up, You can counter AS the attempt is made. Not after, thats is reacting.( I dont think you want to react, you just respond to what is happening when it happens.)



As I see the game of Chi soa much like a chess game, and like chess there are a number of ways to win, depending on your skill. I personally like the idea of the stalemating,In this approach. You do not look for the strike,You just feel and keep your perimeters closed down, when there is an opening the strike will naturally happen,(because the opponent will live himself open.Normally when he is setting himself up for the kill.) By creating a threat but not over extending your self in any direction, will allow you to feel what is really going on.
after all the art of trapping is the art of touching.

Well that's how I see it.
what do you think?

[curtis]

Hello Victor

Ive got one question for you.

I agree with your statements, but are you talking about Boxing, Phon soa, or chi soa?
I know some people see it as all in the same thing, but I dont. I just want to see your statements in the proper light.

while Im typeing its hard to get the proper feel of what is happening, my sence of touch just isnt that good. But I do try! ;-)

Im trying to develop a quantum punch, that way when the opening happens, my flooter can hit that bozo on the other key board.
So far It just hasn't worked. but... Someday. ;-)

I have to go.
have a good day.

[Matrix]

As I see the game of Chi soa much like a chess game, and like chess there are a number of ways to win, depending on your skill. I personally like the idea of the stalemating,In this approach. You do not look for the strike,You just feel and keep your perimeters closed down, ..... Hey Curtis,
Chi sao is a bit of game, however as a training tool I think there needs to be some level of cooperation. Otherwise you will have two people in perpetual stalemate, especially if you have two equally skilled players, and neither person learns very much. The trick is giving just enough energy to test the "attacker" and their skills.

While you do not look for the strike per se, I believe that you should be looking to control the centerline. That may mean that you have to create the opportunity rather than merely waiting for a gap.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I agree with your statements, but are you talking about Boxing, Phon sao, or chi sao? I know some people see it as all in the same thing, but I dont. I just want to see your statements in the proper light." (curtis)


***I'M TALKING ABOUT transitioning from certain boxing mechanics and footwork into a close quarter "chi sao like" wing chun infight, and doing it seamlessly, as if the two arts just blended into one - depending upon the distance form the opponent at any given moment.

Or to put it another way...at certain distances one art takes over while the other waits it's turn! :cool:

............................

And Bill's remarks (Matrix) about the nature of chi sao itself are right on the money:

"Chi sao is a bit of game, however as a training tool I think there needs to be some level of cooperation. Otherwise you will have two people in perpetual stalemate, especially if you have two equally skilled players, and neither person learns very much. The trick is giving just enough energy to test the 'attacker' and their skills.

While you do not look for the strike per se, I believe that you should be looking to control the centerline. That may mean that you have to create the opportunity rather than merely waiting for a gap."

[curtis]

Hello!
Yes it develops good training practices, when the skill gets better you start baiting the other person, and see if they bit! ( sometimes you get bit, sometimes you dont.)
Chi soa is a game of touch/feel, as well as to keep your lines closed, as much as possible.
As I see it you can bait, a opening in many ways.
by leavening a small hole open and see it they take the bait, moving the body to open up a hole in the others defenses. or a little of both, Chi soa is a Strategy and tactics game.
Yes there has to be some cooperation, but that go to say in any sport.
Victor your statements sound more like a phon soa exercise to me, (trapping hands) as I see it, its more free stile, than chi soa.
I would love to touch hands with you, to feel what you are talking about! Perhaps someday?


" Only a Fool,thinks he knows everything." I see it as my goal to learn from everyone.
I hate playing the Fool! ;-)
Thank you for the incites.

C.A.G.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Sure Curtis...Let me know if you're ever planning a trip to NYC.

[ghostofwingchun]

Thank you very much for your reply ultimatewingchun! There is much info there for me to think about . . . and I am not sure I understand you well . . . will you please explain another thing for me? You say that you establish bridge by use of longer range boxing techniques that are guided by wc centerline principles . . . why do you not establish bridge with wc techniques? Much of what you describe sounds like wc to me . . . I'm having hard time seeing where the boxing comes in and why.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Ultimatewingchun]

It's boxing because from longer non contact range I'm using a stiff lead (heavier than a simple flicking jab) - the way some boxer's might use it - not like a typical wing chun fighter. In other words - my main centerline is NOT facing the middle of my opponent's body - it looks more like a boxing/kickboxing stance.

And in addition to jabs - kicks are being thrown from this distance as well...sometimes alone....sometimes in combination with straight lead punches...sometimes even throwing hooks off the jab....or uppercuts off the jab.

And all of the above done in conjunction with more of an up-on-your-toes mobile and evasive type footwork than what's normally done in typical wing chun.

As a way to strike from the outside and/or as a way to move from the outside to a closer range wherein more typical wing chun moves would be employed - including squaring up the main centerline so that it does face the trunk of your oppponent's body directly.

[sihing]

It's boxing because from longer non contact range I'm using a stiff lead (heavier than a simple flicking jab) - the way some boxer's might use it - not like a typical wing chun fighter. In other words - my main centerline is NOT facing the middle of my opponent's body - it looks more like a boxing/kickboxing stance.

And in addition to jabs - kicks are being thrown from this distance as well...sometimes alone....sometimes in combination with straight lead punches...sometimes even throwing hooks off the jab....or uppercuts off the jab.

And all of the above done in conjunction with more of an up-on-your-toes mobile and evasive type footwork than what's normally done in typical wing chun.

As a way to strike from the outside and/or as a way to move from the outside to a closer range wherein more typical wing chun moves would be employed - including squaring up the main centerline so that it does face the trunk of your oppponent's body directly.

GhostofWingChun,

Alot of the above sounds like Jun Fan Gung Fu (JKD). Different strategy than traditional Wing Chun. Not saying it doesn't work or does, just different strategy that's all. As a individual you can do whatever you want to do in a given situation. Some follow different paths than others depending on their own experience and expertise. Download Paul Vunak's Streetfighting series (especially the Jun Fan Kickboxing tape) for more details. You can find them on most P2P networks.

James