Cultural bias and "Memoirs of a Geisha"

[Judge Pen]

Interesting article. I wondered if this would be a problem when I read about the casting. . . .

http://movies.yahoo.com/mv/news/va/20051128/113318596000.html

[@PLUGO]

Seems to somewhat parallel developments in the forthcoming Genghis Khan (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=627) film.

[GeneChing]

...so does Angelina Jolie :eek: Seriously, Troy was a fine example of the other side of the coin. Actors should be able to play different roles and races because acting is their trade, but there's a delicate line there. Obviously, nobody wants a minstrel show. And don't even get me started on Carradine playing half-Chinese...

Did you ever see Peter Brook's Mahabharata? It's an Indian epic myth, of course, but he cast people from all races in the roles, even with the brothers. It was brilliant. Because the story is so eternal, it transends race. Geisha will probably stereotype it. Actually, I'm pretty tired of the Michelle Yeoh/Zhang Ziyi; Qui-gon/Obi-wan relationship, so the main reason I'll go see Geisha, if I do, will just be to see how it navigates any stereotypes of Japanese women.

[Judge Pen]

Actually, I'm pretty tired of the Michelle Yeoh/Zhang Ziyi; Qui-gon/Obi-wan relationship, so the main reason I'll go see Geisha, if I do, will just be to see how it navigates any stereotypes of Japanese women.

I'll go see it because they are pretty. Hey, what can I say? I'm shallow that way.

[@PLUGO]

My girlfriend's eager to see it 'cause she's an admirer of Michelle Yeoh.

Interestingly this sort of topic came up with a friend of mine who's assembling a sort of Sunday school play. One of the character's in the play would be Martin Luthor King Jr. We had a long discussion on ethics of casting a Blonde haired blue eyed girl in the role. From there the discourse sprung out on where such a line might be drawn. Gene's Mahabharata example works perfectly in this.

I Remember seeing a Japanese Film about a bunch of Boarding school boys all of whom were played by girls. I guess the gender thing takes the discourse in a very different direction. Still does "color-blind" casting lead to more "white" actors getting a job or the other way around.

I'm sure if Uma Thurman was cast as the lead in this film there would be a whom other sort of discussion going on.

BTW Gene, Angelina Jole played Greek in ALEXANDER. It interestingly cast actor's with "British" accents for some of other Greeks (don't know what accent Angelina was supposed to have) while the Only Persian character featured in that film was played by a Latina (Rosario Dawson).

Where does the line get drawn in this sort of thing? That's an interesting (and probably unanswerable) question.

[GeneChing]

...all I could remember was 'Angelina Jolie' and 'Greek'. Not sure why that stuck in my head so deeply. Actually, I never saw either film.

The crossing sex roles is weird. Brigette Lin played a man all the way through one film, was it Dragon Inn? I can't remember. She has a long history of playing transgenders, but in that film, whatever it was, she played a man from start to finish. Also there was Linda Hunt in year of Living Dangerously. Of course, there's a long history of men playing women in Asian live theater, but that's a whole different can of worms.

Rosario Dawson is a great example of Hollywood's view on race. It seems she can play any not-quite-white role. I suppose that's great for her, but where it gets interesting, where the line might be drawn is when the tables are turned. When Rosario gets the role as Barbie, then we've made some real progress. Now would not be a good time to bring up White Chicks...:rolleyes:

[Lohanhero]

hello mr GeneChing i beleve the movie you are talking about is the Swordsman 2 (one with jet li also) Brigette Lin was a male that used secret scroll to make him more powerful turning him into a female... also continues in "the east is red"

sorry for interupting :)

[GeneChing]

In Swordsman II, Brigette was sort of transgender. She was male being converted to female by some sort of weird Taoist immortality practice.

In the one I'm thinking about, she was cast as a male all the way through, just like Linda Hunt in Year of Living Dangerously. There were three heroes and it started at this inn, where they were serving human buns, akin to the old Dragon Inn story (actually out of Outlaws of the Marsh for those of you who are literate). But it wasn't Dragon Inn; that was my mistake. Maybe it'll come to me. It wasn't that great of a movie and I saw it a very long time ago.

[Judge Pen]

it started at this inn, where they were serving human buns.

:eek: I missed that story when I was growing up.

[GeneChing]

The 'human' pork buns plot is a strangely pervasive twist common in a disturbing amount of Chinese cinema. It all stems from Outlaws of the Marsh, one of the great classics of Chinese literature. There has even been real-life incidents that have copied this motif, and in a typical recursive HK style, there's even a movie that depicts the 'true story' of a human pork buns killer. It stars everyone's favorite HK psycho, Anthony Wong, and it's called Human Pork Buns aka Bunman: The Untold Story, aka The Untold Story, aka Human Meat Pies: The Untold Story, aka Human Pork Chop aka The Untold Story: Human Meat Roast Pork Buns. OK, talk about getting off topic here. Don't you love HK cinema.

The Brigette-is-so-butch-she-played-a-man character in with the three heroes is called Three Swordsman. I'd like to see Angelina Jolie or Rosario Dawson pull that off. ;)

[GeneChing]

Check out our new e-zine review on Memoirs of a Geisha (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=634).

[Hatsuyuki]

Does anyone have a reasonable amount of knowledge of the subject? (Geisha, Miko, Orin? [sp?]) My girlfriend has a more then slight obsession with Japanese culture (All be it on a diffrent side of the spectrum then my own) and was very insulted when she read this book. Just wondering if anyone can confirm it's accuracy (if any) in regards to the diffrent types of females commonly mistaken for "Geisha" by foreigners, and their portrayal.

Thanks

[Mr Punch]

I seem to remember the book being reasonably accurate... but it should be, cos the real geisha who it is based on sued Golden for not altering it enough to grant her anonymity among other things. She's now about 90 I think and it's basically her story which he stole. Er, wrote. After a long series of private and personal interviews.

[David Jamieson]

Does anyone have a reasonable amount of knowledge of the subject? (Geisha, Miko, Orin? [sp?]) My girlfriend has a more then slight obsession with Japanese culture (All be it on a diffrent side of the spectrum then my own) and was very insulted when she read this book. Just wondering if anyone can confirm it's accuracy (if any) in regards to the diffrent types of females commonly mistaken for "Geisha" by foreigners, and their portrayal.

Thanks


the author concedes that people familiar with the culture will see straight through his story for what it is, a story and a romanticized and highly western view of the thing.

after all, despite the research and all, I doubt a white middle aged american male would have a lot of insight into geisha society lol.

It's like chinese/american food really. It's not actually chinese food, it's food made for the american palatte that is made by chinese people and sold to people who wouldn't actually eat the real thing for the most part.

Such is the stuff of a good writer though. He makes you believe that this could be true! Much like Dan Brown's tales of conspiracy!

[Mr Punch]

the author concedes that people familiar with the culture will see straight through his story for what it is, a story and a romanticized and highly western view of the thing.As I said, the facts are fairly well researched and quite accurate (as in many of the points about the training and mentoring etc). The character portrayals all seem pretty American - they just don't seem to behave like Japanese people of that era would from my experience of talking to maiko and also people from that era. I teach at the YMCA and there's no shortage of that generation of people whose brains I get to pick!!! :D

The geisha's suit was that she was recognisable from the story but that it didn't give her any credit and that it altered too many things without making her unrecognisable: defamation.


after all, despite the research and all, I doubt a white middle aged american male would have a lot of insight into geisha society lol.True, but like I said, he did a lot of interviews with the geisha it's based on.

[Jimbo]

I suppose what really bothers me is that it seems that in general, Westerners believe they can direct films about Asians, but that somehow Asian directors can't possible have the insight to direct films about Westerners. For example, pretty much nobody in America thought anything strange when Bernardo Bertolucci directed The Last Emperor; same with Western directors doing The Last Samurai, Shogun, Marco Polo, and now Memoirs of a Geisha. But when many people think of a director like Ang Lee directing non-Chinese-oriented movies in America, they usually say, "How can a Chinese direct that?" It's a very condescending attitude; on one hand, Asians are stereotyped as being over-educated and "smart"; on the other hand, we're too stupid to direct anything outside of a narrow spectrum of subjects within our own cultures.

As for "Geisha," I might see it just because besides King Kong there hasn't been anything in recent release I feel like seeing. Also because I do like Zhang Ziyi. I'm of Japanese descent but don't feel too strongly about the use of Chinese actresses to star in it. I have doubts the film would do too well in Asia. I don't agree with the filmmaker that they were necessarily the most qualified actresses to play the roles; I think they were chosen because of their fame and familiarity to Westerners, and because in the West, most people don't think there's any difference anyway.

Whew. Got that rant outta the way.

[Judge Pen]

I suppose what really bothers me is that it seems that in general, Westerners believe they can direct films about Asians, but that somehow Asian directors can't possible have the insight to direct films about Westerners. For example, pretty much nobody in America thought anything strange when Bernardo Bertolucci directed The Last Emperor; same with Western directors doing The Last Samurai, Shogun, Marco Polo, and now Memoirs of a Geisha. But when many people think of a director like Ang Lee directing non-Chinese-oriented movies in America, they usually say, "How can a Chinese direct that?" It's a very condescending attitude; on one hand, Asians are stereotyped as being over-educated and "smart"; on the other hand, we're too stupid to direct anything outside of a narrow spectrum of subjects within our own cultures.

Yo Jimbo (sorry man, I couldn't resist),

I never really noticed that particular bias. Ang Lee is one of my favorite directors; I think he brouhgt a life to those 'Sense and Sensibiltiy' that all the British directors lacked. As for films like "The Last Samurai" it was told from a Westerners perspective so the western director seemed appropriate. I had an issue with the ending of the film, but most Japanese people that I know didn't so what the he11 do I know?

I'll probably see Geisha this weekend.

[Sekabin]

Yo Jimbo (sorry man, I couldn't resist),

I never really noticed that particular bias. Ang Lee is one of my favorite directors; I think he brouhgt a life to those 'Sense and Sensibiltiy' that all the British directors lacked. As for films like "The Last Samurai" it was told from a Westerners perspective so the western director seemed appropriate. I had an issue with the ending of the film, but most Japanese people that I know didn't so what the he11 do I know?

I'll probably see Geisha this weekend.

Yeah Last Samurai went down really well in Japan. From what I hear Geisha (called "Sayuri" here) isn't doing great, but still better than expected. I might see it just for curiosity's sake, if I've nothing better to do. The cultural bias aside, I'm not sure I could stand the terrible English
:cool:

[SimonM]

It's like chinese/american food really. It's not actually chinese food, it's food made for the american palatte that is made by chinese people and sold to people who wouldn't actually eat the real thing for the most part.

Such is the stuff of a good writer though. He makes you believe that this could be true! Much like Dan Brown's tales of conspiracy!

I'm not sure if I'd feel the same in the deep south (where they eat pretty much anything that isn't posionous)...

But REAL Shanxi food kicks ass!

It's like italian food only without Cheese.

Lots of Chilli, Garlic, Vinegar
Lots of Potato, mushrooms and pasta
Lots of mutton, pork and chicken

And fish... Not sure where they get the fish from... Perhaps there are Catfish in the Yellow River but Lobster is very popular in Shanxi and I don't have the foggiest clue how that got into local cuisine considering that there is a mountain range between us and the nearest ocean no matter which direction you go in.

[SimonM]

I think they were chosen because of their fame and familiarity to Westerners, and because in the West, most people don't think there's any difference anyway.


Exactly...

That and they can speak English relatively well. However there are probably hundreds of Japanese actresses and a fair share of Korean actresses who can speak English. They just don't have Ms. Zhang's drawing power.

She still is awfully pretty though...

Not quite as pretty as the Korean lass from "The Myth", Ceceilia Cheung, or my new Girlfriend (ok so I'm a bit biassed on that front ;)) but....

What were we talking about again?

Oh yeah, bias.... What you said Jimbo. :p

(So I'm having trouble staying on-topic lately, I've been through a heap of life changes in the last 6 months and I am on vacation!) :cool:

[Mr Punch]

According to the Time article I read Zhang Ziyi can't speak English. Not enough to handle the direction anyway so Michelle Yeoh had to translate for her.

Unlike Koyuki... Yuu Takada... and any number of beautiful talented Japanese actresses.

They're never gonna get the international pulling power if racist ****s like Marshall don't hire them.

And as for the internet tossers on several nationalist boards in China who reportedly said Ziyi deserved to have her breasts hacked off for playing in a Japanese story - if they're true, those ****ers want swatting.

[Mr Punch]

But REAL Shanxi food kicks ass!Hmmm! Jealous... the Chinese food over here sucks! Except this one nice Taiwanese place I know... [/drool]

[SimonM]

Yeah well the Japanese food here isn't so great (unless I visit with Tomoko). I bet you that it is OK where you are.

[Judge Pen]

I get great Japanese food in Knoxville, but it helps when you are engaged to a really good Japanese cook.

[unkokusai]

According to the Time article I read Zhang Ziyi can't speak English. Not enough to handle the direction anyway so Michelle Yeoh had to translate for her.

Unlike Koyuki... Yuu Takada... and any number of beautiful talented Japanese actresses.

They're never gonna get the international pulling power if racist ****s like Marshall don't hire them.

And as for the internet tossers on several nationalist boards in China who reportedly said Ziyi deserved to have her breasts hacked off for playing in a Japanese story - if they're true, those ****ers want swatting.


Well said, sir.

[unkokusai]

Hmmm! Jealous... the Chinese food over here sucks! ... [/drool]


You can't find good Chinese food over in Yokohama?! :eek:

[SimonM]

Yeah well try getting good french food in England. ;)

The two countries may be close but there are some substantial differences between how they prepare food. Hell! Within china there are substantial differences between how people from different places prepare food. And the countries are rivals. And both countries tend to be nationalistic.

It really doesn't surprise me in the slightest. :cool:

[unkokusai]

Yeah well try getting good french food in England. ;)

The two countries may be close but there are some substantial differences between how they prepare food. Hell! Within china there are substantial differences between how people from different places prepare food. And the countries are rivals. And both countries tend to be nationalistic.

It really doesn't surprise me in the slightest. :cool:

No, no. What I mean is that there is a huge Chinatown in Yokohama (right next to Tokyo). The biggest Chinatown outside of China itself if I'm not mistaken. I've had some kick-ass food there, although I was usually drunk when I found myself in Yokohama so I might not be the most highly qualified food critic in the world.

[Mr Punch]

You can't find good Chinese food over in Yokohama?! Kannai's food mostly sucks! You musta been lagged! You can get good stuff if you know where to go but most of it is watered down for the Japanese palate. There's a good (just about one...!) restaurant in Roppongi, can't remember the name but it has a ***** shrine in it and a large ***** shaped bell-ringer in the middle of it, with statues of peni and vaginas and what-have-you all over the walls... well, it IS Roppongi.

Nah, the best is Aji-Ou (味王) in Ikebukuro, Numabukuro or Nakano. It really is the King!:D


Yeah well try getting good french food in England.Leave out the 'French' and you'd still have a point!

[SimonM]

Hey!

They do good fish and chips in England... Pub grub in general is good gnosh.

[unkokusai]

Kannai's food mostly sucks! You musta been lagged!


Yeah, most of the time. :o


I recall a good (by my admittedly pedestrian palate) German place near Ebisu and a good Italian place waaaay over in Toyohashi. Ok, both of those dining experiences may have been somewhat biased by the bosomy babes dining with me at the time!



But I'll take Kyoto cuisine over anything else!!!

[Judge Pen]

Back OT.

I've finally seen "Geisha." I liked it, but that may be a product of my expectations being lowered by the tepid reviews. It was beautifully made. Great production value and cinematography. I didn't not have a problem with the Chinese actresses playing Japanese Geish. Neither did my fiancee (who is more sensitive to these things). She didn't like Ziyi in her part, but loved Gong Li and Yeoh's performances.

I did have some logical concerns with the plot. (How did Geisha suddenly learn to speak english to American soilders?) but a better movie than I expected. Probably way off on the acutal going ons of traditionaly Geisha, but good entertainment.

[WanderingMonk]

In the one I'm thinking about, she was cast as a male all the way through, just like Linda Hunt in Year of Living Dangerously. There were three heroes and it started at this inn, where they were serving human buns, akin to the old Dragon Inn story (actually out of Outlaws of the Marsh for those of you who are literate). But it wasn't Dragon Inn; that was my mistake. Maybe it'll come to me. It wasn't that great of a movie and I saw it a very long time ago.

and the answer is 絕代雙驕
Starring Ms. Lin and Andy Lau