Word Abuse?

[Jim Roselando]

Hey all,


Just out of curiosity!

How many times have you heard your sifu say:

No Tension, Less Tension, Too much Tension etc..

The word Tension or other similar phrases like:

No Muscle, Less Muscle, Too much Muscle etc..

Are we abusing a common soft art slang/term (or terms) if it is not 100% accurate according to human anatomy books?

Are we being mislead (or misleading people) by such terms or slang if its not 100% book accurate?

Does anyone not understand what our sifu's are trying to tell us?

Any feedback or thoughts would be great!!


Peace,

[stonecrusher69]

My sifu says no power which is the same as little muscle tension relax..I dont find it confussing..

[Jim Roselando]

Stonecrusher,


Thanks for the post.

Oh oh! No power!

We need to add that one to the list now! hahaha

Just kidding!

I also feel the same as you!

Anyone else???


Regards,

[Hendrik]

When I was young I love to argue about Right and Wrong according to MY VIEW just because I want the whole world to go according to MY WAY.

As A corse in Miracle said " I rather to be happy then right" Or as my ex sifu the Chan patirach late Ven Hsuan Hua said " Everything is ok" . Now a day, I rather go this way if I am Aware of myself. (sometimes, I dont aware of myself). When we take away the must be MY Way. Life seems to be much effortless. Certainly, I sometimes vasilating between My WAY is the ONLY way and Everything is OK.


Take this, it is just last night, I get into this MY WAY is the ONLY Way with my kid and end up with angry , upper back stiff and pain. And that is the indication of my body is telling me I have stucked in Not Flexible and EGO..... I found it out this morning while I ask the Buddha to show me what is happing.... It is ok, no one has to do it the way I present even my kid.

As certainly, there are people who love to argue for shake of argue. and we want to let them present thier view because It is not effective at all trying to not allow others to manifest what they want to. ... I guess it goes back to Lat Sau Jek Choong. Let go and move on..... instead of stuck and draining energy going force against force. As we know, not everyone will agree with one, and that is reality

Hahaha

[Jim Roselando]

Sifu,


Everything is ok is a nice motto!


Regards,

[GungFuHillbilly]

>if it is not 100% accurate according to human anatomy books.

Anatomy books don't always agree on what is going on with dynamic processes (if they even address them at all).

IMHO students spend way too much time focusing on semantics. While I acknowledge that the context in which a term is used is important and there are truths to be gleaned from the words we use, in the end if you are speaking of Art their is a point at which words fail to convey deeper meanings.

-GFH

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Nice post!


Thanks,

[Liddel]

Good call GungFuHillbilly -
Words are used to imply feelings and convey an idea or meaning.

Common calls at our school are "Less/ too much force" Fong Sau, Relax etc...

Often Sifu would follow up such a call with letting the student feel the right way.... which is where the true understanding comes from IMO.

You need a good mix of being told and feeling about it.

If you didnt need the feeling you could therefore learn a large part from a book ! which we all know would only scratch the surface.
:rolleyes:

[reneritchie]

BFD.

No tension, you're a puddle on the floor. Too much and you're a brittle stick in the wind.

WCK isn't about *no* tension or *no* power, it's nicely spelled out in the Kuen Kuit that WCK is about achieving the most with the least. We try to get to as little tension as we need for a specific task, as little power as we need for a specific situation, all so that another highly skilled opponent can't take our excess and use it against us.

It's not meant to be a goal but a journey, continually improving as you approach great results in a perceptibly effortless manner.

And, hey, if you're a powerful person with incredible chin and pain tolerance, good for you! You have a bonus! If you can give it up long enough to learn to maximize, imagine what you'll be able to do when you ramp it up again!

And if you complain someone is using strength against you, well, hey, you should be happy, as it should make it easier for you to "use against them"!

:)

[KPM]

BFD.

No tension, you're a puddle on the floor. Too much and you're a brittle stick in the wind.

WCK isn't about *no* tension or *no* power, it's nicely spelled out in the Kuen Kuit that WCK is about achieving the most with the least. We try to get to as little tension as we need for a specific task, as little power as we need for a specific situation, all so that another highly skilled opponent can't take our excess and use it against us.

:)


Good post Rene! :) Now let me propose a related question for you guys. Sure, your sifu can tell you to use "no tension" or "no muscle" and you will understand that he is speaking on a relative basis only, because you know that it is physically impossible to really have NO tension in an active muscle and to move without using your muscles. So nick-picking whether he should have said "relatively no tension" or "relatively no muscle" is just semantics. But what if it was becoming clear that he really thought that you could stand there with absolutely no tension in your calves? Or that he really thought that by using your Chi you can move joints without using muscles? Would you call him on it??? What if it became clear that the sifu that you were trusting with your education and development didn't know the difference between a tendon and a ligament? Or didn't understand that muscles cross joints but don't attach to joints? Would that concern you? In other words, to be a fully qualified instructor of martial arts, should one have at least a fundamental knowledge of how the body works from a western anatomy and physiology standpoint? Should a fully qualified Sifu know anatomy and physiology to at least a level similar to the typical high school football or basketball coach? After all, isn't training in martial arts at least as challenging as football and basketball? Should your sifu be able to explain to you basic biomechanics just as well as he can explain to you oriental metaphysics? Does anyone want a sifu that doesn't know at least as much as their high school coach? What do you guys think?

Keith

[anerlich]

Any feedback or thoughts would be great!!


Immediate feedback and thought: you are flogging a dead horse.


BFD.

And that sums the whole thing up beautifully.

Different teaching modalities work better for different students. Assume the student is smart enough to work some things out for him/herself, unless for some reason you enjoy teaching morons.

[GungFuHillbilly]

Some interesting questions Keith...

I feel all too often that we confuse teachers and practitioners. Don't get me wrong, I feel some of the best teachers are some of the best practitioners; however the reverse is not always true.

Music teachers for instance... There are a great many music instructors that are not composing or performing but are phenomenal teachers. And it can very often be said that some of the greatest musicians/composers were/are terrible teachers.

While it is important to have a knowledgeable teacher that you can question, it is also important to have a teacher that can relate the art to you. It ultimately comes down to the question "Are you learning from them?"

It's not that "those who can't teach." It's more to the point that teaching in itself is an art aside from the practice of any martial art.

Different students require different approaches in order for them to learn and develop and good teachers know what approach to take with a student regardless of the subject matter.

I would tend to say that "calling your Sifu on it" would be an ego thing, but that's just MHO.

-GFH

[stonecrusher69]

how do you know how much power,muscle tension to use? If you where to pick up a pencil would you use 100% of your power or would you use a small fraction of your energy?You simply use what is correct amount that is need to perform the task.

[Jim Roselando]

GFH wrote:


While it is important to have a knowledgeable teacher that you can question, it is also important to have a teacher that can relate the art to you. It ultimately comes down to the question "Are you learning from them?"

What if;

What if a person with absolutely no education learns WCK. He cant tell his pinky from his thumb! But! Can throw the educated students around with ease? What good does the education do?

What if Mr. Smoe from China moves to the USA. He cannot speak English at all and is not interested in learning English. Should only Chinese speaking people learn from him or could you learn from him via the feel and constant hands on adjustments etc?

What if a person with a very high education tries to learn WCK. He knows every detail of his body inside and out but has not so good athletic DNA. Would the education help him eventually figure it out??


So, in the end is "what can you do" with what you know and can you pass it on consistantly.

***

I would tend to say that "calling your Sifu on it" would be an ego thing, but that's just MHO.

How would a "martial artist" call another martial artist on something????

Si Gung Fung Chiu would say to his visiters and students:

Everyone has the talk! What can you do!


"Do your hands speak or don't they?"


Gotta run!

[cobra]

I understand this a little better now than a couple of years ago. I used to get annoyed with being told I was too stiff, tense, strong. Not soft enough. Now I understand a lot better because I had to become much softer to experience the "sensitivity". I understand sensitivity now in a different way as I have caught myself reacting to things that I feel and I'm talking about very subtle changes in pressure and direction. My reaction times are a lot faster now and I am also able to deliver a lot more power. This is really not something to be explained easily, but rather experienced by trusting your sifu and lots of repitition. You can't get the sensitivity to that level without "giving up the force". I hope this makes some sense as it is extremely hard to convey in writing.

[KPM]

how do you know how much power,muscle tension to use? If you where to pick up a pencil would you use 100% of your power or would you use a small fraction of your energy?You simply use what is correct amount that is need to perform the task.


I agree with you 100%. But what if you said exactly that and your teacher told you it was wrong?.....that you would mislead people with that statement?....that your body was not yet to the stage of development to know "what is correct amount that is needed to perform the task"? What if the teacher then told you that you are supposed to be able to pick up that pencil using absolutely no tension in your muscles? Would you start to wonder?

Keith

[KPM]

Hey GFH!

I feel all too often that we confuse teachers and practitioners. Don't get me wrong, I feel some of the best teachers are some of the best practitioners; however the reverse is not always true.

---I agree! :) Some of the best athletes are not qualified to coach. Some of the best coaches would get killed on the field. What sets a "teacher" apart from a "practitioner"?

While it is important to have a knowledgeable teacher that you can question, it is also important to have a teacher that can relate the art to you. It ultimately comes down to the question "Are you learning from them?"

---I agree again! So do you become concerned about a teacher that is telling you things and talking in terms that you know are not accurate? Do you want to learn classical music from a teacher that doesn't know the difference between a bass clef and a treble clef? Would you go to the gym and trust an athletic trainer that doesn't know the difference between a deltoid and a lat?


I would tend to say that "calling your Sifu on it" would be an ego thing, but that's just MHO.

---Ok. Maybe "calling them on it" is a strong statement. :) But you yourself said "it is important to have a knowledgeable teacher that you can question." That's all I meant. If it was becoming clear that there was a gap in their knowledge and they were telling you things that didn't quite make sense, would you question them?

---So, all other things being equal as far as skill and knowledge in Wing Chun.....would you want to learn from a sifu that can't speak English, doesn't understand how to explain things to you in a simple biomechanical way, or tells you things that you know are inaccurate.....or would you want to learn from a sifu that can clearly explain what he wants you to do in precise western terms? Do you want a teacher that is an excellent practitioner but poor teacher, or one that is good at both teaching and doing? Do you want a teacher that only tells you "use no tension" or "use no muscle"? Or do you want a teacher that explains what he actually means by that in western terms? Do you want a teacher that knows oriental metaphysics but doesn't know a tendon from a ligament? Or do you want a teacher that can relate the two types of thinking (eastern and western) and use whichever explanation will get through to you the best?


Keith

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Cobra!


Nice post!

Its a tricky subject these common terms. Words have different meanings for different people.

Example:

The "Tan Sao"!

For 30 + years is has been known as "Palm Up Block"! Books were written, videos made, etc.. The Palm Up Block was an exactly in-accurate term compared to the precise meaning!

How many really good WCK people were developed with this exactly in-accurate term? Lots!

Similar to telling someone this stuff after long practice will change the tendons/sinews, open the joints, disolve the pelvic griddle, increase the density of your bones etc. and other stuff. Sure, some stuff may sound off or may even not be 100% book accurate depending on what word was used with the description, like the Tan Sao definition, but can it be felt and passed on? Of course! So, when we hear stuff like "float" or "swimming on dry land" does it mean you are actually floating? Of course not!

Debating over certain words are based on level of cultivation and how picky someone wants to be for debate. Each person will have a different understanding but the bottom line is can we do it and can it be passed on.

If the non English speaking Yip Man sifu came to the usa and started teaching would we not go learn from him because of the language barrier?

Heading to NY for a long weekend! Gonna check out the big tree!


See ya,

[stonecrusher69]

I agree with you 100%. But what if you said exactly that and your teacher told you it was wrong?.....that you would mislead people with that statement?....that your body was not yet to the stage of development to know "what is correct amount that is needed to perform the task"? What if the teacher then told you that you are supposed to be able to pick up that pencil using absolutely no tension in your muscles? Would you start to wonder?

Keith



Well, If my sifu said my statement was wrong I would ask him to prove me wrong.Not by telling me but by showing me.If he could not show me I would not believe him and nor would I be his student.Talk is cheap ,I need to see it when it comes to fighting theories are not enough.If the sifu is good he can show you easly.If he can't produce what he says then he can't do it.As far as not at the correct stage to know the correct power to use,unless your a total beginner I haveto dissagree with that.You need to learn that right away,right from the begining.alot of that can be learned through Chi sao practice an if your not using the correct power(say to much) your sifu should show you why.The idea of no tension is false of course you have to use some tension,but very little is needed.In my frist post I said use no power,but there is no such thing as no power.its just means use only a small amount.If a person throws a punch at you and he is using 100% of his power you don't use 100% of your power .You use maybe 20% of your power but never no power.You need some power to hold your structure ,but the structure should do most of th ework for you.

[GungFuHillbilly]

Jim Wrote:

[QUOTE]What if a person with absolutely no education learns WCK. He cant tell his pinky from his thumb! But! Can throw the educated students around with ease? What good does the education do?[QUOTE]

Just because he can 'throw the students around' does not make him a teacher.

Again, allow me to make an analogy to music:

You walk into a bar and their is a guy burnin' up on a [pick your preferred instrument]. You've been wanting to learn and so after the gig you ask them if they give lessons. You begin studying with them and realize that while they can play...they can't teach!

The best teacher for you may not be the best teacher for someone else. Learning is a contextual enterprise.

-GFH

[ghostofwingchun]

Hey Cobra!


Nice post!

Its a tricky subject these common terms. Words have different meanings for different people.

Example:

The "Tan Sao"!

For 30 + years is has been known as "Palm Up Block"! Books were written, videos made, etc.. The Palm Up Block was an exactly in-accurate term compared to the precise meaning!

How many really good WCK people were developed with this exactly in-accurate term? Lots!

Similar to telling someone this stuff after long practice will change the tendons/sinews, open the joints, disolve the pelvic griddle, increase the density of your bones etc. and other stuff. Sure, some stuff may sound off or may even not be 100% book accurate depending on what word was used with the description, like the Tan Sao definition, but can it be felt and passed on? Of course! So, when we hear stuff like "float" or "swimming on dry land" does it mean you are actually floating? Of course not!

Debating over certain words are based on level of cultivation and how picky someone wants to be for debate. Each person will have a different understanding but the bottom line is can we do it and can it be passed on.

If the non English speaking Yip Man sifu came to the usa and started teaching would we not go learn from him because of the language barrier?

Heading to NY for a long weekend! Gonna check out the big tree!


See ya,

Jim Roselando,

Very enlightening for this newbie. . . so the word is not the thing (I think I've heard that before! lol) . . . can I ask you say why palm up block is an inaccurate description? What is the precise meaning?

Thanks,

Ghost

[Jim Roselando]

GFH,


Just because he can 'throw the students around' does not make him a teacher.


Very True! A sign of a good teacher is how many people he can produce.


The best teacher for you may not be the best teacher for someone else. Learning is a contextual enterprise.

True again!


Peace,

[Jim Roselando]

Ghost,


Very enlightening for this newbie. . . so the word is not the thing (I think I've heard that before! lol) . . . can I ask you say why palm up block is an inaccurate description? What is the precise meaning?

I am sure Rene or any of the Chinese speaking guys can help better with this but I believe Spread Open Hand is the translation. Meaning to disperse which has more relation to the action than Palm Up but as history has proven it didn't matter for so many!


Regards,
Jim

[hen]

Tan Sau is Tan Sau, "Trusting forward with a twist"

Palm up is no found in WC.

Palm up is a lifting motion.

Can't see how it can be confused!!!

[Jim Roselando]

Copied from WCK.com:

Tan (Tan) is often mistranslated as "Palm-Up". This is so common, in fact, that many have come to simply accept it as fact. While perhaps helpful in a generally descriptive way, this mistranslation robs the practitioner of a lot of deeper meaning. Tan, in fact, means to disperse, to spread out. It is formed from the radical variant of Sao (Shou, hand, arm) and Nan (Nan, hard, difficult, famine-(short tailed) birds forced to spread out in search of food when the land is yellow and dry. Tan Sao is one of the principle intercepting tools of Wing Chun. Tan can help us understand the structure that effortlessly disperses incoming force away from the center and spreads out the opponent, cutting them off and making it harder for them to continue.

[ghostofwingchun]

Mr. Roselando,

Thank you so much for your reply! I now understand that when translated from the cantonese into english tan means to spread or disperse. I still am a bit confused though . . . is palm up block simply another accurate description . . . though poor translation of the cantonese . . . of what is going on with tan sao . . . sort of like calling the accelerator on your car a gas pedal, the two terms are not synonomous but are two different ways of accurately describing the same thing . . . or is it an inaccurate description . . .sort of like calling the accelerator a brake?

Thanks,

Ghost

[CFT]

Mr. Roselando,

Thank you so much for your reply! I now understand that when translated from the cantonese into english tan means to spread or disperse. I still am a bit confused though . . . is palm up block simply another accurate description . . . though poor translation of the cantonese . . . of what is going on with tan sao . . . sort of like calling the accelerator on your car a gas pedal, the two terms are not synonomous but are two different ways of accurately describing the same thing . . . or is it an inaccurate description . . .sort of like calling the accelerator a brake?

Thanks,

GhostGhost,

What Jim is saying is that "palm up block" just describes the look and loses the idea that is conveyed by the word "tan".

Using your example, "pedal 3" instead of "accelerator pedal". The former identifies the position of the pedal but the latter describes the purpose.

[ghostofwingchun]

Thank you Mr. Chee for your response! To make certain that I understand you . . . so are you saying that a tan sao looks like a palm up block but acts to spread or disperse? I guess where I am confused is that those two . . . palm up block and to spread or disperse . . . seem to me to describe very dissimilar things . . . . I can understand why we call an accelerator a gas pedal since it actually is a pedal that supplies gas to the engine which then can cause an acceleration. Let me ask it this way . . . if my palm up block doesn't spread or disperse is it still a tan sao . . . and if I disperse or spread without having my palm up is it still a tan sao? I am struggling to understand this . . . .

Thanks,

Ghost

[Hendrik]

What is the different between

Tan Sau,
Palm up block,
and
Side outward block of Karate?

[Jam_master]

You can't get the sensitivity to that level without "giving up the force".

You can achieve both if you rely or work on your structural strength, and not muscular. What this means is that position and correct alignment is crusial and necessary to hold back your opponents advances while you remain calm and soft. Does anyone recall the imoveable elbow theory?:) If you do, this is a good reference from which to start.

[anerlich]

Palm up is no found in WC.

Palm up is a lifting motion.

Well, actually there are such movements in Wing Chun. There are several "lifting" or "palm up" movements (Tok sau, etc) in Chum Kil and the dummy movements. There is also a lifting movement in the pole form.

[cobra]

You can achieve both if you rely or work on your structural strength, and not muscular. What this means is that position and correct alignment is crusial and necessary to hold back your opponents advances while you remain calm and soft. Does anyone recall the imoveable elbow theory? If you do, this is a good reference from which to start.

I agree, I believe we are saying the same thing. Confidence in your structure is a key too. I understand the immovable elbow theory maybe a little different than you. The elbow does move, depending on the direction and amount of incoming force, so how can it be immovable?

[snakebyte8]

Thank you Mr. Chee for your response! To make certain that I understand you . . . so are you saying that a tan sao looks like a palm up block but acts to spread or disperse? I guess where I am confused is that those two . . . palm up block and to spread or disperse . . . seem to me to describe very dissimilar things . . . . I can understand why we call an accelerator a gas pedal since it actually is a pedal that supplies gas to the engine which then can cause an acceleration. Let me ask it this way . . . if my palm up block doesn't spread or disperse is it still a tan sao . . . and if I disperse or spread without having my palm up is it still a tan sao? I am struggling to understand this . . . .

Thanks,

Ghost

Nice to see you again old friend.

[hen]

Quote:
Palm up is no found in WC.

Palm up is a lifting motion.

Well, actually there are such movements in Wing Chun. There are several "lifting" or "palm up" movements (Tok sau, etc) in Chum Kil and the dummy movements. There is also a lifting movement in the pole form.

Hi anerlich,

Thanks for correcting me. May be there is a Tok Sau in the Dummy (I remember seeing it in a Vid) or may be in the pole. As I only have Knowledge of the first 2 forms. But I'm pretty sure there is no Tok Sau in CK, there is what seems like a palm up movement. The movement is executed with both arms together at the same time, one upward motion and the other downward motion. The apllication as I understand it is to trap and break opponents arm.

Welcome comments from all.

Hen
(beginner with limited knowledge):confused:

[hen]

In my last post, i'm assumming tok sau as a upward palm motion used to deflect an in-coming arm attacked. Normally the tak sau is executive at your opponent's elbow to be effective, lifting the whole arm up to expose your opponent's body for further attacks.

However, I have never used it in WC. I find the other basic movements do a better job or are more natural to me.

Hen

[anerlich]

Hen,

not trying to be a smarta$$ here.

Lineages vary in their execution of the forms. In my CK, there are consecutive single arm 'palm up' movements. You are correct in that they are not called Tok Sao, and that Tok Sao appears in the (my lineage) dummy form.

The (my) pole form has a lifting, jerking movement called til kwun, use for low attacks, the groin being one obvious and possible target, but also to lift the opponent's pole up and off line, the enrgy being similar to the empty hand movements under discussion

To be honest, my knowledge of the Chinese terminology is pretty poor, and I find the wide range of different terms used for movements, and sometimes the same movement, conflicting and confusing. Perhaps that's a weakness on my part, perhaps even a significant one ... I'll leave that judgement to others.

As demonstrated on this thread, some seem to believe that terminology has to be precise and exact or all is lost, others that near enough is good enough, still others seem to think it situation-specific, or change their minds to keep a good argument going, or demand precise terminology but then talk all kinds of imprecise gobbledegook themselves. And some, like me, are paranoid, and attribute motivations to others that they do not possess. ;)

Personally, I think the efficacy of precise vocabulary depends on the student. Per the NLP range of learning styles.

If it's not your mother tongue, it probably doesn't matter that much.

[hen]

Hi anerlich,

Sure, totally understand what you mean.

What is important to me is correct principles, correct body positioning and correct execution of movement. The coming together of the body and mind. A universal understanding of terminology used would help in dialogue in our discusions but not likely given the many different WC Sifus around the world with so many languages.............

Have a great weekend
Hows the weather down under?

[Hendrik]

IMHHHO,

There might be even the Case of Negative Tension.....



There is Tension Floor, Tension monitoring sensitivity, Tension amplitude, and Tension polarity.


Because, what one wants to implement might be a resonance or pendulum type of phenomenon. ....


Thus, I have heard, it is not about lacking of Words but lacking of truely goes in, experience the phenomenon and describe what it is. And that I leave it for the Next Generation to do the project.

[KPM]

Thus, I have heard, it is not about lacking of Words but lacking of truely goes in, experience the phenomenon and describe what it is. .

---And that, my friend, will require a sound knowledge of anatomy, physiology, and biomechanics! :)

Keith

[ghostofwingchun]

Since the meaning of various wc expressions and terms seem to vary so much from person to person it might make more sense for everyone not to take for granted that everyone else understands the expression as you do . . . regardless of how exact you think term is . . . and instead speak on more plain english level . . . at least until others have idea of what you mean by term . . . I have no idea what many mean by centerline let alone what negative tension can possibly be! . . . lol. Just idea . . .from someone trying to understand what people are talking about . . . lol.

Thanks,

Ghost

[KPM]

Since the meaning of various wc expressions and terms seem to vary so much from person to person it might make more sense for everyone not to take for granted that everyone else understands the expression as you do . . . regardless of how exact you think term is . . . and instead speak on more plain english level . . . at least until others have idea of what you mean by term . . . I have no idea what many mean by centerline let alone what negative tension can possibly be! . . . lol. Just idea . . .from someone trying to understand what people are talking about . . . lol.

Thanks,

Ghost


Hi Ghost!

Perhaps you are suggesting speaking from a basic western conception of anatomy and biomechanics when you say "speak on a more plain english level"? That is the point I have been trying to make. At least then, if you didn't quite understand what was being said you would have resources to look it up yourself....like a dictionary, basic anatomy text, etc. I think that "experts" in a field of physical endeavor should have some basic knowledge of the "physical" behind that "endeavor." Using "fuzzy" words or phrases such as "negative tension" or "be totally relaxed" or "have absolutely no tension" may work fine if the students understand what the instructor is getting at.....but wouldn't it be better to speak in more precise terms? I think so. But that's just me. ;)

Keith

[ghostofwingchun]

Mr. Keith thank you for your reply! Many of the expressions and terms . . . especially concepts . . . are shorthand for the user . . . they say centerline or chi but to them centerline or chi means a whole lot but someone else who is not in on the shorthand centerline or chi means a whole lot less . . . so my idea since it would help me and I'm sure others possibly too . . . is to skip the shorthand and stick more to explaining in more detail what you refer to in plain words so anyone can understand what you mean . . . and since forum is in english, then use english. For me, when someone uses these terms I ask for explanation so that I can understand them . . . not trying to be a pain, just trying to be clear.

Thanks,

Ghost

[anerlich]

There might be even the Case of Negative Tension.....

About as likely as the case for negative volume. Not in this particular space/time continuum, buddy.

If you treat tension like temperature, and assume zero degrees is the freezing point of water (Celsius), instead of absolute zero (Kelvin), then you can have "negative" temperature. But only if you ratchet "zero" out somewhere along the continuum, instead of saying it's absolute.

So I guess you Eastern mystical "zero" tension freaks can define tihngs to suit yourselves. Then again, I guess a powerlifter could define zero tension as what it takes to deadlift 500 pounds, so that he can say he can "lift weights with zero muscle tension" or hit somebody with "zero tension", if you allow him or yourselves to define measurements to suit your arguments..

So I guess you can define "zero tension" to be anything you like.

But IMNSHO that would be "word abuse", as well as deserving of derision..

[KPM]

So I guess you can define "zero tension" to be anything you like.

But IMNSHO that would be "word abuse", as well as deserving of derision..

Hey Andrew!

I agree 100%! :) And I was also told awhile back that there is a "martial artist" understanding of terms that is different than the typical understanding of the same terms. So your statement above may have hit the nail on the head. :rolleyes:

Keith

[Hendrik]

The beauty of 6 directional force vectors concept is that it be able to lead one to understand or "see" the Virtual Ground

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_ground

or "zero, negative, or positive tension" .... concept etc in the force field. since it deal with both vector and scala components. Thus, it is a broader perspective compare to the uni-directional passive only perspective....

As in many field, IE
There is also the concept of negative resistance because the circuit is not passive.

Pendulum or other resonance device can store energy and release it. with low energy dissipation or low or virtual lost less or periodical lost compensation charging thus the resonance can stay run for a long time.


As in a flying wheel can store energy via spining and then release the energy. Spring can store energy and release it. spring can store energy while it was pull or it was compressed. Thus, there is both positive tension IE pull or negarive tension IE compressed as one defined.


Burst of high voltage can be generated as Tesla has shown via inductor . Fajing or Keng geng can be analogus to Tesla's finding. IMHO

Thus, one cant expect an active/genarative/ resonance phenomenon or circuit characteristics to be totally or fully describe with just positive resistive concept or uni directional or absolute number. Thus, Zero, negative, positive Tension concept is just a way to open up to set free one's perception about the matter instead of getting stuck in a corner.

As in complex variable mathermatics. Vector, its sign, scala, its amplitude, its absolute, its sensitivity, its common denominator ......etc are all a part of the components to describing the model. and stuck with or attemp to make any one of the components to be the STANDARD COMFORMATION reference is just push one to be stucked in a corner or make one tunnel vision. It is just in adequate.



Some might see it that way some might want to keep stuck in a corner. Free will world.

[anerlich]

No sale, buddy.


As in many field, IE
There is also the concept of negative resistance because the circuit is not passive.


As in many fields, but not the physiology of the musculature.


Thus, Zero, negative, positive Tension concept is just a way to open up to set free one's perception about the matter instead of getting stuck in a corner.

You patronising anyone in particular, Jack?

Perhaps you are stuck in a corner, but if so, you painted yourself there. Freeing one's perceptions is good, but not to the point of seeing what is not there. That's delusion.



Some might see it that way some might want to keep stuck in a corner. Free will world.

Just as you have the free will to think delusionally and ensnare yourself in impractical models of world that by your own admission you cannot adequately describe:


It is just in adequate.


And that I leave it for the Next Generation to do the project.

Good advice, I can't see you being up to the job. IMHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHO

[Hendrik]

Anerlich,


Excellent perspective.


Love and Peace.

Merry Xmas

[Hendrik]

Thus, I have heard,

The concept of Zero tension or virtual Ground is needed due to the point of contact can be not Really Grounded. However it is generate via the balancing of the resultant force from the 6 directional force vector, a "virtual Ground is manifest. Negative tension is about Acceleration for Keng Geng. Positive Tension can be used to bait the opponent to mis reading.....

It is similar to a resonanace tank circuit or pendullum analysis in physics or the virtual ground concept previously post.


As for how "zero" is Zero for the tension "floor" that is relative to individual Kung fu.


Thus, is it Zero as nothing, Nope, however behind the fuzzy-ness it is a concept needs to be understand to open up another ball game.

Ie: solid grounding of the opponents dominant force via static structure can be a problem that immobile oneself and then one has to use another dominant force to fight against it. As for using the Virtual Ground or zero tension, there is no "nailing" or "locking" or " molding" or grounding into the ground. it is a force field illusion similar to optical illusion which one might think there is a 3 D depth but actually it is just an optical illusion......


Thus, I have heard.

Changing the orientation of the 6 force vectors components in the force field via going up to level 3 -- using intention which is a type of Nim Lek --- is much faster then one had to go down from the force field which is the level 2 to level 1 which is the platform; and changing the structure/platform and balancing it since one has no control on the 6 force " vectors "simultaneously but has to deal with the "solid" static "scalar" force which related directly via changing the static platform.

one can change the orientation of the 6 directional force vector components with minimum alignment of the physical structure via Yee which is adaptively dynamically align the body which is a distributive system. Provided one cultivate this in SLT.





Thus, the basic of unidirectional force or solid static struture or measurement of tension such as scalar is great. However, one needs more, such as the vector concepts, the virtual ground concept, to open up another new ball game to the force field. where level 2 is. That is the sub atomic level.


Thus, precise and consice wording is important. however, "Fuzzy" wording such as too cold, very hot, hot, is also very important because via the Fuzzy, we design our Anti-lock brake which we use everyday in our automobile which crispy logic doesnt do well.

http://developer.intel.com/design/auto/mcs96/applnots/27259501.pdf#search='fuzzy%20logic%20anti%20lock%2 0break'


Thus, it is my believe that, if there is substant behind the language blury. it is worthed to take a deep look. and if there is no substant behind the clear absolute language, there is no need to wasting energy. IMHHO.


However, it is a free will world that different people has different perspective and so to react from the angle of thier perspective and logic is normal. Thus, what I am posting might be or might not be for one.

[Jim Roselando]

HS wrote:


Thus, I have heard, it is not about lacking of Words but lacking of truely goes in, experience the phenomenon and describe what it is.


Davinci wrote in his notes:

It is only thru experience can we begin to learn and understand etc..

:)

[Hendrik]

HS wrote:


Thus, I have heard, it is not about lacking of Words but lacking of truely goes in, experience the phenomenon and describe what it is.


Davinci wrote in his notes:

It is only thru experience can we begin to learn and understand etc..

:)


yup. that is me learning from Davinci's wisdom.

Disregard from east or west, we can learn from these great people.

[anerlich]

Thus, I have heard,

From whom?


Excellent perspective.

I knew that.


Love and Peace.

Positive or negative?

Since everything is apparently interelated, I see parallels between your Virtual Ground and semantic and linguistic Thin Ice (TM).

[KPM]

Hey Hendrik!

Negative tension is about Acceleration for Keng Geng. Positive Tension can be used to bait the opponent to mis reading.....

---It sounds like your "negative tension" would then be a loading response prior to doing "Keng Geng." But you have said elsewhere that there is no preparatory actions for Keng Geng. :confused: There can be some "elastic loading" in human tissue, but it is from stretching the tissue out, not from compression like a spring. But I've never seen this described as "negative tension" from a physiological standpoint.


Ie: solid grounding of the opponents dominant force via static structure can be a problem that immobile oneself and then one has to use another dominant force to fight against it. As for using the Virtual Ground or zero tension, there is no "nailing" or "locking" or " molding" or grounding into the ground. it is a force field illusion similar to optical illusion which one might think there is a 3 D depth but actually it is just an optical illusion......

---Ah! An "illusion." Now maybe we are getting to the heart of it all? :p

open up another new ball game to the force field. where level 2 is. That is the sub atomic level.

---I find it interesting that you are either unwilling or unable to speak about things from an anatomical and biomechanical perspective, yet now you are talking about subatomic physics! :eek:


Thus, precise and consice wording is important.

---That's also an interesting comment, since this whole thread was starting with exactly the opposite sentiment!


Hey Jim!

Davinci wrote in his notes:

It is only thru experience can we begin to learn and understand etc..

---Ah, but don't forget that Da Vinci had a thorough knowledge and understanding of anatomy that oriented what he was experiencing and allowed him to convey it more clearly to others. ;)


Keith

[Jim Roselando]

KPM wrote:

---Ah, but don't forget that Da Vinci had a thorough knowledge and understanding of anatomy that oriented what he was experiencing and allowed him to convey it more clearly to others.


Da Vinci was pretty much a loner who would spend most of his life training, and keeping detailed notes on his training, and expereinces thru training. He was a student of nature/life and studied and learned as much as he could about all sorts of aspects of life.

He had one assistant his entire life and often travelled from place to place looking for people to hire him so he could test out his inventions.

His knowledge of anatomy came thru experience. His artistic genious helped him draw what he saw via hands on "experience". BTW: It was not until much later in life that he decided to research the human body.

Da Vinci more than anything was a hands on "do it" person that had "no" students. His primary work remembered would be his art as that was his main tool for commissions but also he also studied war, flight, under-water development, sculpted, anatomy etc.. His understanding of anatomy was not stressed more than any other aspect, especially since it was not a hobby of his until late in life, and it seems possible that his practical knowledge of life thru real experience was more his way than being fixed on Anatomy being his great tool for communication.

Anatomy means nothing if you cannot do it and the only way to do something is to train and experience it. Then, you need to be able to pass it on!Communication skills help with this but some may get it and some may not. Its not always the details of anatomy.

BTW: Davinci had no formal schooling as a youth.


Regards,

[Hendrik]

---It sounds like your "negative tension" would then be a loading response prior to doing "Keng Geng." But you have said elsewhere that there is no preparatory actions for Keng Geng. :confused:


Thus, I have heard,

The old chinese internal martial art saying said that " you are not coming I am not issuing." There is no preparation because one let what coming coming. And since one stays in a dynamic equalibrim state. what will happen will happen -- which is issuing will just happen.














open up another new ball game to the force field. where level 2 is. That is the sub atomic level.

---I find it interesting that you are either unwilling or unable to speak about things from an anatomical and biomechanical perspective, yet now you are talking about subatomic physics!


"Sub atomic level" is an analogy. biomechanical and anatomical both are great to deal with certain area but both has its limitation. IE moving up to level 2 needs Vector analysis which is Vector in nature it is beyond scalar unit. Certainly Scala is important, but staying in the Scalar level will not be able to communicate Vector realms concept clearly.










Thus, precise and consice wording is important.

---That's also an interesting comment, since this whole thread was starting with exactly the opposite sentiment!



Precise and consice wording is important. However, that can be a limitation if one is not carefull. Such as one can demand to communicate in Scalar concept and refuse to communicate in Vector concept. because one thinks Scalar realm is Good enough not knowing that the Vector realm one is not familiar with has even more degree of freedom. Such as within the Atom there is electrons and proton..... refuse to going into the sub atomic but stick with atomic level and demand using the precise and concise words in the Atomic level is not going to lead one into the understanding of Sub Atomic level.

IMHHO, similar to getting into any new field.
It is another paradigm, new words, new definitions .... needs to be created and define. and sometimes clarified ; and then move on to the subject instead of stuck in an ego of arguing about wording trying to safe one's face but really getting more stuck in the progression. and including myself, it is not easy to admit to say " I dont know".However, someone if one Love the progression more then one's ego then one has to travel that path. It is certainly important to describe what is going one with clarity, however, it will be a waste of energy to pick on words for shake of picking on words to show one's authoritarian. As a human, I do these type of things often.

One needs Vector when one get into the force field realm or level 2. Scalar can do a ok job in level 1 however it doesnt has enough degree of freedom or precision/consice to describe force vectors. Similar to one who just taking physics class, one will not appreciate Vector analysis or complex variable because one think --- everything can be express with Scalar just fine. But in the reality, that is not the case.


IE: everyone (including me) will tell others one needs to be "one piece, holistics....." in structure....etc while doing SLT/SNT. But in the reality, take a video while doing SLT/SNt and one will see -- does one really is doing SLT/SNT with one piece holistics.... or one's body break into many pieces?" Thus, the understanding of body mechanics or bio mechanics is great to explain things, however, there are much more then "understanding and explaination or beliving what the sifu or instructor or one think"

IE:
One can have a perfect understanding of the Biomachanics,...etc but one just cant get the breathing right. and if one trying to enforce the breathing, then the body might get into a different states.....

Thus, there is more to be explore. and nailing one in a particular favoritsim is not going to help much. IMHHO


Just some thought.

[KPM]

Hey Hendrik!

Thus, there is more to be explore. and nailing one in a particular favoritsim is not going to help much. IMHHO


---I'm not trying to "nail one in a particular favoritism." I don't think knowledge of anatomy is the be all and end all. Experience is certainly important. But it is a topic that certainly helps to understand what you are doing in any physical endeavor, and that will then help you to explain it to others. When I tried to point this out to you and Jim in a somewhat "gentle" manner, I was totally ignored and my point disregarded. Since then I have made what seems to have been a rather fruitless effort to "drive home" that point. Sorry if that seems like a "favoritism." IMHHHO, it is a very important point that neither you nor Jim have ever acknowledged. Its funny, when AndrewS made similar statements the response was...."great. Thanks for the chat!" But when I make them I get argued with. :confused: Oh well! Thanks for the chat!

Keith

[Hendrik]

Hey Hendrik!

Thus, there is more to be explore. and nailing one in a particular favoritsim is not going to help much. IMHHO


---I'm not trying to "nail one in a particular favoritism." I don't think knowledge of anatomy is the be all and end all. Experience is certainly important. But it is a topic that certainly helps to understand what you are doing in any physical endeavor, and that will then help you to explain it to others. When I tried to point this out to you and Jim in a somewhat "gentle" manner, I was totally ignored and my point disregarded. Since then I have made what seems to have been a rather fruitless effort to "drive home" that point. Sorry if that seems like a "favoritism." IMHHHO, it is a very important point that neither you nor Jim have ever acknowledged. Its funny, when AndrewS made similar statements the response was...."great. Thanks for the chat!" But when I make them I get argued with. :confused: Oh well! Thanks for the chat!

Keith


Keith,

I am making a general comment. It can applied to anyone including me.

since you are not pursuing this path. Just drop it otherwise we are wasting energy being side track.


I encourage you to find out what is all these things above is about. may be it takes one day may be ten years who knows. It takes me 20 years to understand what was told to me which I think I understand but I dont. Thus, fruitfull or fruitless doesnt matter as soon as keep banging at it and not getting side track and somedays one will arive there without even knowing it. after you know it I am sure you can benifit others via your expression. There is no one style of communication or expression fit all. and every style is needed.


The matter of fact is if you know these stuffs somedays may be you can use your knowledge in anatomy or biomechanics to express or communicate better then me. I am a electrical engineer. Control system and vectors and complex and AI is my language. So, we can only make the best use on what we have to communicate.


And, I communicate or trying my best to communicate with as much loving as possible and sometimes I feel I can drop in more information and sometimes I dont feel like to communicate when I am busy. That is just me a human.


again, fruitless or fruitfull, the "negative tension" get your mind in action to observe more. and that is progression, isnt it?

Merry Xmas

[anerlich]

the "negative tension" get your mind in action to observe more. and that is progression, isnt it?

Greater progression by some on this thread could be made by using a mirror to "observe" themselves "more".

[Hendrik]

Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise. — Bertrand Russell

I guess that is a different between experience and idealistic speculation.

[anerlich]

Bertie was right, but:

I see more obfuscation than seeking of precision here, and more idealistic speculation than experience.

[KPM]

Hey Hendrik!

since you are not pursuing this path. Just drop it otherwise we are wasting energy being side track.

---Excellent point and excellent advice! Merry Christmas to you as well!

Keith

[Jim Roselando]

HS Wrote:


since you are not pursuing this path

after you know it I am sure you can benifit others via your expression. There is no one style of communication or expression fit all. and every style is needed.

The matter of fact is if you know these stuffs somedays may be you can use your knowledge in anatomy or biomechanics to express or communicate better then me.


Thats seems pretty reasonable! :)


Regards,

[Jim Roselando]

Anerlich wrote:

and more idealistic speculation than experience.

since you are not pursuing this path

Exeperience would be the only vehicle to distinguish what is Idealistic Speculation or not! Otherwise it is pure Speculation!

hahahahaha

:D :D :D :D :D


Peace,
Jim

[Hendrik]

Hey Hendrik!

since you are not pursuing this path. Just drop it otherwise we are wasting energy being side track.

---Excellent point and excellent advice! Merry Christmas to you as well!

Keith


Keith,

Merry Chrismas and have a Happy New Year.

Hendrik


since this is a xmas time, let me share something that St. Pio had inspired me.

"....The sacred gift of prayer, my good daughter, is in the right hand of the saviour, and according to the amount that you empty yourself, that is, of corporal love and of your own will, and root yourself well in huminity, the lord will communicate with you in your heart. Have patience in the perserverance in this holy exercise of meditation, and be contented to begin by little steps until you have strenght to run , or better to fly......

Humble yourself always and lovinglybefore God and men, because God speaks to those who really keep thier hearts humbly before Him to be enrichd by His gifts.....

You approach meditation with a kind of arrogance, with a great anxiety to find some subject that will please and console your spirit and this is enough to have you never find what you are seeking. Your mind is not in the truth you are meditating on, and your heart is empty of affection. My daughter, you know when someone is looking for a thing with haste and avidity, he will touch the things with his hands and look at it a hundred times without noticing it......." --- St. Padre Pio 8/23/1919.



IMHO, one can named it God, Dao, Buddha, Nature.... But all the saint and great people from both east or west knows the "Door" to enter...


Level 4, starts here, IMHO.