The masters and phonies you have met who are famous.

[Wong Fei Hong]

As the title says, who have you met, who is famous and your impressions.
Im not talking about your teacher who was famous in his circles, I mean people who are famous allover wether because of the net, good marketing , if they are pro stand up fighters (boxers karate tkd whatever) or pro mma guys , masters or so called masters.
No hearsay and nothing youve read online only people you have met.
Why were you impressed or did you think he was a phoney and what made you go wow about them.

I havent met many being in this neck of the woods.

Wing chuns william cheung, did a few seminars with him about 10 years ago now, thought the guy was impressive, but in retrospect he was just well marketed and dont think much of him, he sat drank coffee through out the whole seminar and showed us some combination techniques without correcting anyone. Oh and brought out lots of fotos of bruce lee and himself doing mountain poses.
His techniques were textbook wing chun,just like his books, nothing special.

Chen Tai chi's Chen xiao wang
Had one seminar and this guy is amazing, his fajing is phenomenal , i dont know if he can apply it in a sports style fight as its got that coil up to it but the guy is pure power, he cracks the air around him, he is full of energy over flowing and a really nice guy would answer questions as much as possible, cared about teaching and didnt charge much at all. His thighs were so powerful that his muscles bulged through his silk trousers. And we are talking about a 60+ year old man.
We did only a form , the short chen form i think it was 18 movements, no analysis of technique or explanation of tai chi basics. He also showed us the basics of how to generate fajing, using chan si chi kung and explained this.
At the end he demonstrated applications from the form, and i swear to you if there is any such thing as killing in one move, if he could pull off those applications which im sure he can the guy on the receiveing end is a gonner

Wado ryu's tatsuo suzuki
Wow is all i can say, he is 78 years old and had 2 seminars with him, since i wasnt affiliated with his organisation he didnt pay too much attention to me but he did to his students, fair enough i think he wasnt feeling to great and maybe this is why. He is a nice guy though.
The guy is pure speed and fluidity. In the second seminar 1-2 years after he took notice and he was punching me telling me to shift out of the way, i swear to you i have never seen anything so fast. I felt like an idiot i got hit 10/10 in retrospect i think his secret was he would mask his intent so there was no sign he was attacking.
It wasnt just the speed , it was that my body got no signal to tell me to get the hell out of the way !
About what we learnt it was a bit different from what i expected, one seminar was only knife defenses and it was very traditional based. no other techniques, in the second seminar it was weird, didnt agree with most of the stuff, it was very sport karate based and they used techniques that are one move counters as combinations and came out quite weird. However the body shifting was very very high level concepts.

I tried to give an overall of the guys skill level / difference in techniques and personality. Please share your experiences !!!

[David Jamieson]

IMO- First impressions in regards to kungfu don't have a lot of weight. Barring complete and obvious incompetence, it is difficult to get any sort of valid assessment of the value of someones body of teachings from a one or two day seminar.

seminar's are generally more for promotional purposes and introductions to an artist or that artists style. In reality, you are likely to walk away from a seminar with relatively few things. Maybe one or two things you hadn't thought about but mostly, you will walk away with more questions than you came in with.

a person who has 20 years or whatnot in the martial arts is unlikely to be able to transmit that art over the course of a day or two.

How would it be possible to assess overall value of training in an art or even to assess what sort of relationship you may develop with taht person if you were to decide to learn from them.

You can be studying with someone for 5 years before you discover that maybe that's not what your looking for afterall. You'll still walk away with something martially, but it is about you getting a grasp of things. In that time, you can more properly form an opinion because you will find success or failure within your ability and as wlel you will find success or failure within an art as you come to know it more.

Your goals and objectives may not match the criteria of the art at all after the zenith of your learning cycle or even before it.

Main point being, a seminar is no real measure of someone or their art. It's like a bit sized thing on a larger buffet that you couldn't possibly eat in one sitting. You go away not knowing whethere the rest will taste good to you or bad and sometimes you will only draw a conclusion after one or two bites from one or two ends of the table. YOu never know if that thing in the middle was bitter or sweet.

[Wong Fei Hong]

Agreed but im just curious as to what made an impression on people. About them being famous, take note i dont believe that their being famous means that they are good, its just a measure of the fact that everyone on the board knows them !
Some might say you know i met such and such and he is a real assh0le. Cool ! or they might say ive never seen this sort of strength in a demo. You can never tell what its like through the tv.

I will give you an example of this with my teacher the first time i saw him break a stone , i was in shock because the amount of heat generated i stood about 2-3 metres away and he broke a stone he picked up from the garden a big fat one.
Now for ages i had seen 101 block breaking brick breaking slab breaking set on fire headbutted demos. I was so bored i thought so what.
When i saw my teacher do it i was like holy **** this is the real deal. This is nothing like those other demos they are so faked !
I swear the heat given off was as much as when i had crashed and wrote off my car, if anyone has ever been in such a huge crash they will know about the heat i mean.
Another example is when i had seen the 100+ super heavyweight east asian wka champion a few years back. I have seen big bouncers before and fighters but this guy wasnt only huge he was solid resilient as a steel door the other guy just couldnt hurt him. Now through the tv ernesto hoost is pale compared to this guy, but in real life i bet he is a beast.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

met gary dill if that counts.

[Yum Cha]

Chen Yong Fa (CLF) small guy, but burning intent. Can be very scary.

Chan Hak Fu (Pak Hok) - genteel elder gentleman, dignified and dedicated.

Chan Hak Fu's Son - crazy, spiritual and friendly. Deadliest man I ever met.

There are others seniors, like Jim Fung (WC), Corneilus Coleho (LHBF), Chan Chuck Fei (Double Dragon), Leung Cheung (YKM), and others, but they are probably just local heros...i.e. not famous outside Sydney, or Australia.

If there were some I couldn't respect, then they wouldn't be on the list now, would they...

Thing is, I know some unknown guys in their 40's who deserve to be on the list, and perhaps will be one day.

:D

[Wong Fei Hong]

chan hak fu :eek: thats the man himself !!!! From that really bad fight with wu gong yi
What was he like in real life, i know you said gentle dignified and dedicated, but so was my nanny to knitting (if i had one).
Did he look like he had fighting spirit ? like he practised martial arts or just health and kept a legacy going on ?, i mean was he so different in real life from that video ?


I know some people say you cant judge by outward appearnce, but cmon after years of being in martial arts you get to be able to read people and their power.

His son sounds cool btw, and i know what you mean about ppl who deserve to be on the list and arent. Some people just never wanted it i guess and some never had the chance.

btw gene you can answer too :D considering youve interviewed every master alive lol !!

Another thing i personally am trying to extract from the posts is that each master has something special about him and definately a different sort of vibe no two masters give off the same energy and im trying to see how different it is too . Even phoneys have somethign special to be able and woo the masses .

[EarthDragon]

In my years I have been fortunate to meet some very impressive martial artists.
Adam Hsu
Brendan Li
Wong Fei Hung
Lin Muo Hao
Tat Ma Wong
Yoshiki Takahasi
John Newberry
Zhang Yaun Ming
Yen Chu Feng

I have included some photos........ The qi gong masters have the highest skil level I have ever heard of also Yoshiki takahashi is one of the toughest guys I ever sparred with. for those who dont know of im he is the World pancrase champion. and came to the US to train at my school for the UFC 7 and 8 bouts, both of which he won with a broken hand.

[Wong Fei Hong]

Did i just read wong fei hung on that list ? I thought he died 70yrs ago. :cool: j/k
Thats an impressive list , more info please !

What was Yoshiki takahashi like ? i mean whats it like to have guy like that trying to take your head off in sparring ? Is he solid rock is he fluid fast agressive, is everythign so spontaneous with him ?

Also what did it feel like being around those qigong masters ? Could you feel the qi all the time around them, was it different from normal qigong practitioners ? did they need to "power up" to do the demonstrations they did like when they inserted that needle in your leg ?

[SPJ]

Road shows, 2 days seminars or crash courses and hand on or wet stuff --

As pointed out, it is only for promotion and some exchange of ideas or tips or Q and A for other practitioners.

As a beginner, there is only so little or so much to "take home".

Nowadays, people just call themself a teacher or Lao Shi or just mister.

Da Shi or master is abandoned in China and Taiwan. Although Shi Fu is still retained in Hongkong.

As long as no false claims or ads to promote, be honest with oneself and with others, and phoneyness will not be there.

If a teacher of white crane and some knowledge of Tai Chi and try to say he or she knows more about Tai Chi, it would not be true.

However, if he or she said he or she extrapolated techniques from white crane learning into understanding of Tai Chi, that is totally honest and true. Then it is all good. There are some crane moves in Tai Chi and some even said Tai Chi is from crane style mixed with--

[SPJ]

Fame or not.

There are many good practitioners out there have good ideas and experiences to share. And she or he may not be famed or known.

Nowadays, there are a lot of promotions out there.

As long as we know what he or she is talking about from what experiences or practices.

Leave all the promotions out of the window and get to know the said person.

:)

[SevenStar]

John Tsai

Ajarn Chai Sirusute

Royce Gracie

Quentin 'Rampage' Jackson

Dr. Yang Jwing Ming

Adriano Lucio (his team is more known than he though - brazilian top team)

Manu Ntoh

Brandon Slay - Gold medal at 2000 olympics - wrestling

[Yum Cha]

Wong FH,

He was an old man that was kind and respected by the Sydey Martial Arts community, and amongst the cluster of old guys that made the rules. I know he flew with General Cheunault in the Flying Tigers, and that pizzes on any kind of ring bout, then, now or in the future.

His school was well developed, and he left behind several good students to carry on his teachings. When his boys fought, they didn't look like 'generic kick boxers' and there techniques transferred well into gloved matches. His school didn't win as much as Yau Kung Mun or Choi Lee Fut, but they weren't "also rans" by any means.

His son was a mercernary in South America under an English commander, and you got "rank" by beating the guy above you. His son was the top NCO in the unit. I think his experiences drove him around the twist. He was crazy as a loon, gave me much of my folk daoist training, and was the first man I met that could touch me at will, wherever he wanted, (while laughing) and there was nothing I could do to stop it but try and run away. He also created a great form for the giant screwdriver....

:D

[Blacktiger]

Grandmaster Liu Jing Ru - 70 years plus and skills that were off the planet.

He teaches, Bagua, Liu He Mantis, Tai Chi - One of the old school. He's of Cheng Shi Ba Gua Zhang from Cheng Tinghua's lineage.

:D

Have not met many frauds. Lucky I guess!

[GruBianca]

Sorry,

do you have any picture of Chan Hak Fu's son? Do you know whether he lives in Macau?

Thanks and Regards

Luca

[Yum Cha]

Sorry,

do you have any picture of Chan Hak Fu's son? Do you know whether he lives in Macau?

Thanks and Regards

Luca

Top Picture, second from left on this page http://www.aaron.net.au/pak_mei/pix/pix_temple.html Circa 1993.

He was living as the caretaker "monk" at this temple when we met him. He wore rags ate what people left him and filled our heads with folk-daoist stories while he filled our cups with tea.

When asked, he said his style was Ba Qua. He would often train with us, but more often he would just drink tea and chat. It was all very entertaining to him, he had a run-in with the police awhile later and I have only seen him occasionally over the last 10 years, and not for several years.

Gee, I'm surprised nobody is interested in Chen Yong Fa....I once went to a dinner hosted by CLF with him and his father to honour his grandfather. It was the social highlight on the Sydney TCMA Calendar. All the old boys dusted off their silks and put on quite a show. One guy even took down a crystal chandelier with a three section staff and hardly missed a beat finishing up, dancing amongst the glass shards.

[TenTigers]

I met Chuck Zito once. He punched out Jean-Claude vanDamme-he's my hero.

[Wong Fei Hong]

Amazing stuff i love hearing about these guys, it always inspires me to train more. Chuck zito hehehe i remember that incident.

Seven star, what was royce gracie, Quinton jackson and Dr yang jwing ming like ?
I always imagined meeting royce gracie like meeting someone who was internal like a tai chi guy, yang jwing ming to be scholarly and Quinton jackson, erm Quinton jackson to eat baby puppies.

[SPJ]

Good point on getting to know the person.

I think the baby is hugging and kissing the pup in the img?

:)

[SevenStar]

Amazing stuff i love hearing about these guys, it always inspires me to train more. Chuck zito hehehe i remember that incident.

Seven star, what was royce gracie, Quinton jackson and Dr yang jwing ming like ?
I always imagined meeting royce gracie like meeting someone who was internal like a tai chi guy, yang jwing ming to be scholarly and Quinton jackson, erm Quinton jackson to eat baby puppies.


I actually went to school with rampage. To be honest, I only vaguely remember him. A buddy of mine still trains with him when he comes home, and he was like "man, he played ball with us and we all used to lift together..."

royce is awesome. great personality, very humble, contrary to what many people believe. He's very skilled. He's so fluid you barely feel him move on/around you, but once he's got you, you definitely know it.

Dr Yang is very good at what he does. I watched him touch my friend's shoulder and make his whole arm go numb. to this day, I'm not sure what he did.

I was almost able to add chuck norris to my list. My first MA experience was training at one of his schools when I was a kid. He visited the school, but I was never there when he came by.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Wing chuns william cheung, did a few seminars with him about 10 years ago now, thought the guy was impressive, but in retrospect he was just well marketed and dont think much of him, he sat drank coffee through out the whole seminar and showed us some combination techniques without correcting anyone. Oh and brought out lots of fotos of bruce lee and himself doing mountain poses.
His techniques were textbook wing chun,just like his books, nothing special." (Wong Fei Hong)


***AS SOMEONE who has attended over 50 public seminars given by William Cheung going back 22+ years...and as someone who has organized about 30 of those seminars...(not to mention all the semi-private instructors only seminars, private lessons, etc. - given by William Cheung)...


I CAN SAY UNEQUIVOCALLY that WFH's first post on this thread (which is the only post I've bothered to read - since I won't give trolls and their troll threads any more time than what's absolutely necessary)...

His post, which I quoted above...is BULL5HIT !!! :eek:

[Wong Fei Hong]

dude all i can say is emin botzepe troll that...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Emin Boztepe has nothing to do with it.

Your thread is troll bull5hit. :cool:

[Wong Fei Hong]

Something ive started to notice is that masters each use their own method which can be so contradictory to another master but still be so high level, one is soft the other is hard one uses intent the other hides it. One flows the other uses aggression. But they are all equally high level.
Wish i went to school with rampage :( but he might have eaten my puppy :D


abt william cheung
Dude its a shame you feel that way that this thread is troll bull, imho opinion william cheung is troll bull. For numerous reasons, its a shame as i wanted in this thread, to discuss what people found stood out, about the positive martial influences in their life. As i believe that every master has something unique.
Maybe i should start a post why william cheung is troll bull****, erm

1 riding on the name of being traditional with no traditional stances or shiftings in his wing chun. sorry this is his secret inheritance :rolleyes:
2 Calling bullshido on all the other wc schools , and getting owned with a p by groundfighting by a guy who never did ground fighting who was half his age and not even a "grandmaster".
3 Reviewing the video tape with my then sifu he explained that whilst emin was pounding his head in he was doing bong saus and lap saus on the ground. Pleez
4 Releasing to the public the SECRET ground fighting of wing chun shortly after this incident :D yes i was at the seminar.
5 Using bruce lee liberally in his promotions as well as tyson. Yes willam cheung sent an email to tyson the day before his fight telling him what he needs to work on.He was in our country at a seminar at the time tyson was fighting and tyson needed his help.
6 Actually not having any backing to anything he has ever taught apart from "the numerous wing chun competitions he won when he was young" And his ability to milk 8.3 cows in one second.

In his own words
"I am the best fighter, and I am willing to prove it to them at any time, anywhere. Unlike Leung Ting and company, as shown in the photo, you only have to take one look at them to realize that none of them look that part of martial artists. I could safely say that none of them have done any hard training in recent years. They certainly don't look very impressive! "

lol

So when i say i was dissapointed because he didnt actually correct us and he was more interested in selling his photos with bruce lee, dont get offended all i stated was what i witnessed.

On a constructive note
1, one thing i learnt from him, being oriental, old and calling yourself a grandmaster doesnt mean i should trust you and give you my cash.
2 speed isnt everything so dont believe this, a guy with wing chun punches doesnt actually do so much damage, it hurts a lot more being hit once in the head by a pro boxer. Same way a fast tkd kick doesnt hurt like a muay thai roundhouse.
3 When you dont use your waist you really dont generate power.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Pleeeeeszz stop the troll bull.

That's correct, half his age. The man was 46 years old, a Chinese guy alone, for the first time in Germany, of all places, surrounded by six of Boztepe's German friends, just changed into thin Chinese slippers (from his sneakers) on a slippery wooden floor, very hesitant about punching the guy and decides to go for a neutralizing headlock for fear of repercussions if he in fact beats the guy up...and after actually kicking Boztepe away from him on Boztepe's first charge (which didn't make it into the edited version of the film that was released)...and of course a standing high headlock against someone taller and weighs more almost always means you'll get dumped onto the ground...at which point NOT ONE of the punches Boztepe threw landed cleanly - and after about 20 seconds of this - he gets away and back to his feet UNMARKED...at which point Boztepe decides to take his friends and his video camera and leave.

And as to the differences (be it footwork or any number of other things that TWC does that's different AND ADDS TO THE OVERALL QUALITY OF WING CHUN AS THE WORLD KNEW WING CHUN AT THAT TIME)...

you, WFH...obviously have no clue.

As to William Cheung's bravado, as a man already well into his forties - I'll be the first to tell you that it was a dumb move on his part. But that doesn't change anything else I've said on this post.

[David Jamieson]

dude, the 40's thing is NO argument.

I'm in my forties.
My training partner is in his forties.

I've never had a teacher under forty.

I've sparred hard with more than a few over forties.

Being in your forties wil only impede you in your desire to compete, not so much in your ability. The desire for competition is for younger guys, the ability to kick ass is definitely not the exclusive domain of youth.


As for that film, I think it is mostly embarassing because it shows how both of them have equal ground to stand on when it comes to tactical ineffectiveness at that time.

Neither of them will improve as a fighter because neither of them actually fights, not has fought outside of a couple of stories. Typical guys who spend too much time using techniques on compliant students or wooden dummies.

They both represent a bigger problem in the thinking of martial arts from pretty much every single tradition that does not actively spare and pressure test techniques.

Competition that is not rigged and not about saving face for someone else.
Competition that uses a reasonable concept to allow for demonstration of an art from a purely tactical perspective is not something that is found in many traditional venues. So far, the only way to safely show the arts is to do it on a flattened playing ground. For Kungfu it is San Shou, or Muay Thai or even MMA venues. THose are the places to go if you want to compete in an open sense and none of the 'to the death' stuff is required. Just good sport and a reasonable determination if you are fit enough to fight or not. THat fitness isn't based on whether or not you lose the fight, it's based on should you even be in there in the first place.


The playground and it's dynamic and the competitors who enter it's dynamic has further effect on how people fight in that playground, to a point where a new thing comes into being.


If you don't play your kungfu at all levels of practice and application, it will not develop and will not develop in the direction you have chosen to not take, such as competitive fighting.

You can't swim if you don't go in the water.
reading and watching has never produced a fighter.

read my sig :p

[Ultimatewingchun]

Check out the wing chun forum for some news (a new thread) about a couple of wing chun guys in England who just won some MMA NHB events.

And as to taking a MMA approach and engaging in some very realistic sparring/fighting/grappling...I agree.

I'm 55 years old and I still full contact spar/roll competitively with my students/friends every week.

But I still don't see how that changes what REALLY happened back in 1986 in Germany (almost 20 years ago). And I certainly don't understand why this event, which has been discussed, debated, and fought over ad nauseum for all these years - still needs to be trolled over. :confused:

[Wong Fei Hong]

As for that film, I think it is mostly embarassing because it shows how both of them have equal ground to stand on when it comes to tactical ineffectiveness at that time.

I have to agree tottaly with this comment, its not a case about trolling nor is it about beating a dead horse as to why this happened , the case is you cant expect a grandmaster in any respective style, to have that happen to them. And then still demand respect. If he was a coach i would say ok he just knows technique...
But lets face it I could have placed any 18 year old testosterone filled guy with no training against william cheung and in the same situation the guy would have bashed his head in judging by what happened. Emin wasnt even going hard i mean you look at some of those ground and pound fighters or someone who really wants to do damage he could have cracked william cheungs head like a lemon. I think the point was to shake him up and ridicule him.
Saying things like slippers and no punches landed and videos and the tape was edited and he was surrounded etc etc etc etc , ffs the guy is supposed to be a master, If he got jumped on the street by a crack hooligan he would be dead and there would be no room for this debate. Did he expect in a real confrontation to do the entry technique followed by pak sau roll punch ?

As for william cheungs Traditional wing chun being better than other wing chun at the time well i dont know the evidence speaks for itself.

I also have to admit that age is not a factor in these things, ok conditioning in terms of stamina is different, but most of the guys that ive seen that could hurt me without me being able to touch are definately over 50.


And I certainly don't understand why this event, which has been discussed, debated, and fought over ad nauseum for all these years - still needs to be trolled over.
Ok in all honesty i will answer this question with another question, why do people still, inspite of proof at how badly a grandmaster handled a confrontation still defend and support him. If he cant make it work what chance do all the tens of thousands of begginers have to make it work.
I studied wing chun for 6 years getting to instructor level in william cheungs style and tbh tottaly honest it was a waste of time compared to learning other styles I followed afterwards . Had i not believed the bullsh1t that william cheung feeds his instructors and then respectively the instructors teach us then i wouldnt have wasted my time. In this light i think people like william cheung shouldnt have organisations. Simply to save people time and effort as well as from getting them killed if they ever got into a confrontation.


I looked at the wing chun forum and i definately look forward to seeing those fights , the cage warriors event is huge in the uk and i look forward to the event regardless of result its good to see wing chun in there, however linking it to my previous statements, I believe someone like william cheung should have it tried and tested before he has organisations of 10s or 100s of thousands of people world wide. Not wait for 20 years until someone appears from uk tottaly unnaffiliated to him to participate in an event using wing chun because he has managed to adapt his training to "work"
The problem starts at the source.

[Kaitain(UK)]

UWC - suggest you look at my additions to the Wing CHun NHB thread before you use it as evidence. The format was one four minute round with no head shots. So yes they fought and won in a competition (respect for that), but it wasn't NHB by any measure. They include the information about the format on their website, but didnt mention it on the forum. http://www.alanorr.co.uk/htdocs/nhb/teamironorr.html

[Wong Fei Hong]

:( oh well , one will rise one day :D
I remember that for years Gary turner fought under the lau gar schools name, He did really well i got to see him when he was going for european semi contact championship quite a few years ago, recently he was one of the uk k-1 competitors , however he is nowadays affiliated with a kickboxing or thai boxing gym.
http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~turnerg/profiles/wokingthaiboxinggym/gary%20turner.htm

Its a shame but i think the reason is because trad schools just dont keep up the intensity so that you can train like a pro.

Saw the fight clips and there was no wc in it , but it was more credible than the emin william cheung fight :D Sorry UWC i couldnt resist. Interesting to see how the guys train, and if the use wing chun for the stand up or if they spar using wing chun i.e if there were head shots if you would see wing chun in there

[David Jamieson]

Many people do not enter trad schools to competitively fight, many trad schools do not offer training for competitive fighting.

this is why trad people who want to enter these venues have no choice at this time but to enter a different training regimen than what is offered in traditional type schools.

the instensity for training for competition fighting is sky high when compared to your average 3x aweek learn some forms and how to meditate type thing.

the training is far more athletically geared with tons of cv training and plenty of strength training that would be too much for your average hobbyist martial artists, or health pursuers...who by nature of health maintenance would not focus on competitive violence. :p

[EarthDragon]

Wong Fei Hung, To answer your questions.

What was Yoshiki takahashi like ? i mean whats it like to have guy like that trying to take your head off in sparring ? Is he solid rock is he fluid fast agressive, is everythign so spontaneous with him ?

Well we would cross hands but he was not trying to mame me thank goodness. it was more just a chance to feel his techniques in a non confrontational way As he gave me respect for being in my school. But he is very quick, very skilled and a tough little ba$tard to say the least. he won his bought in UFC 8 with a broken hand.

Also what did it feel like being around those qigong masters ? Could you feel the qi all the time around them, was it different from normal qigong practitioners ? did they need to "power up" to do the demonstrations they did like when they inserted that needle in your leg ?__


the qigong teachers are awsome, very humble and quiet. My qigong teacher Yen Chui Feng lived with me for several months when she moved her from San Francisco. She carries herself with the upmost confidence, grace and humbleness.
You could definatly feel thier presence and aurora. But thier qi is definatly summond up usually from the dantien to the jumbei in order to project. it is not somthing you feel when caually walking around them. In order to project the qi as in my demo of inserting the needle it is a high level skill and takes quit a bit of energy to perform.

[EarthDragon]

WongFei Hung,
almost for got to ask if you recieved my letter yet? I am curious to know when you get it,and how long it takes to arrive form the US. thanks.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"But lets face it I could have placed any 18 year old testosterone filled guy with no training against william cheung and in the same situation the guy would have bashed his head in judging by what happened."


***AND YOU HAVE THE FRIGGIN' BALLS TO SAY YOU'RE NOT TROLLING??? :mad:

You're a PU55Y hiding behind a computer keyboard. I can arrange for you to come at no charge to William Cheung's next seminar closest to where you live and you can repeat that remark to him (and the TWC instructor running the seminar) in person...Interested?

[KC Elbows]

Everyone knows that ing chun does not work in seminars. It's meant for the street.

[greenmoon]

David Brown and Mal Mcrae. David Brown is probably the best technical Aikido master that I've met. Mal Mcrae has the best use of Ki in Aikido that I have felt. Aikido is probably the martial art with the most amount of dodginess when it comes to being effective so I give these guys some respect. They can make their stuff work against grapplers and kickboxers without resorting to grappling or kickboxing themselves. I've yet to see them fare against a high level internal CMA.

[Wong Fei Hong]

Earth dragon thanks for the replies always wondered what these people are like. I saw the photos on your site earlier so im glad you wrote about them. I havent received the letter yet but it takes ages sometimes , as i live in a village too they wait till i have lots of letters to bring them together.

I would love to meet pro mma fighters get to spar with them :( They are just so different from amateur guys they just have such timing they can pull off counters to things you wouldnt think is feasible at that speed :(

Glad to have the thread back on track :)

Uwc sorry you feel im trolling, imho the brute force emin used overcame technque and the amount of force emin used is nothing compared to some guys i know who train in the gym and like to brawl.

Thats an interesting note, now i mentioned gym anybody who has met any really famous bodybuilders those guys are masters too in their own right wether they are old school or new monsters plz post freely !

Green moon its interesting you mention that because from what ive seen most aikido is really bad i mean really really bad however like you said some people can make it work and its really amazing how they throw people about.
One thing that amazes me is how similar but different aikido using ki and taichi using qi or internal power is. Aikido flows straight through the opponent and just controlls them and it feels so different, whereas tai chi practitioners seem to control them using an internal sort of force or a solid power not so much a flow like aikido. Its like in tai chi it arrives like a gushing waterfall, wherease aikido is like the whole ocean. My personal experience.

One thing that im starting to notice more and more which is ironic is that whenever someone does something a little different in traditional martial arts they are scolded because its not in line with tradition yet in years gone by every master had created their own style.And every one of the masters people have posted about in this thread have a very very specific energy, method of application, thought process behind what they do.
So really i guess if you feel what you are doing is right then you should follow what you feel, not so much keep on mimicking, after all if you copy someone else you can only always come in second place compared to them.






Not to derail the thread because this doesnt really interest me but my reply to the william cheung issue for those who are bothered to read it follows.

Lol i just read the last part of the post by uwc, i almost missed it, i really would have no problem with this lol but for me it would serve no purpose also i think its wrong you know, like people said on another thread about ray pina and matt hughes you cant challenge someone who is famous just because you feel you want to ride on his name. Same way you shouldnt post on his behalf.

What if i took up the challenge cause im some punk who doesnt have some respect for other ppl. What if i hurt him ? Would he actually wear a set of gloves and get in the ring to make it sanctioned ??? If he wouldnt and we went at it in someones school with no gear and i cracked his ribs broke his nose . What then ?
I dont mind im young i heal i have fun doing this stuff. But for him its no joke.

Even If i said yes and he didnt want to as he didnt feel he had to or need to.
What if i started blaggin everywhere that william cheung refused to fight me because you told him, that would look even dumber for him.

I know where i stand compared to william cheung in terms of skill and i dont feel i need to test myself against him.

Unless you post my fight fee for appearance, k-1/oriental no elbow rules we can host it on eurosport too Billed the underdog vs the grandmaster never seen before on tv legally who will combine the two titles of grand master and underdog :D

As a final note what someone said about the whole situation 5 years ago on this forum.



The fight was not between Andrew Draheim and Victor Parlati, but Andrew Draheim and Keith Mazza. The fight did not happen a short time after the Cologne incident (1986), but about ten years later.

Draheim posted many long, provocative tracts ridiculing Cheung and TWC on rec.m-a. A flame war of epic proportions ensued. Draheim was extremely provocative, posting pictures of the Cheung/Boztepe fight/fiasco on his website, even to the point of moving his training premises into the same building as TWC instructor Victor Parlati. Parlati claimed to have met Draheim over a beer to try and sort the whole thing out, and begged off a challenge match due to having undergone recent surgery. While Draheim was flaming and being flamed in return by a cast of 1000s including myself, he accepted a challenge from Keith Mazza. Parlati and some other guy turned up at Draheim's premises to say they wanted to fight there and then, Draheim said he only wanted to fight Mazza, after which Mazza was brought into the room and a "fight" commenced. Both sides claimed victory, but only Draheim went to the emergency room afterwards. Both sued each other, both withdrew charges and both were evicted from their building by an annoyed landlord.

While the conduct of Cheung, Boztepe, Draheim, Parlati and Mazza in these ignominious incidents brands each as a arrogant, immature moron, Draheim deserves special executive moron status for his prodigous and unequalled output of self delusional bull**** on rec.m-a. He was an embarassment to his seniors and to WC in general.

lol anyhow no hard feelings for calling me a troll but i prefer to get back to the purpose of the thread.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Excluding the judgments about arrogance on my or Keith Mazza'a part - everything written on the previous post about the actual situation between Draheim and myself is true...EXCEPT FOR THIS PART:

"Parlati claimed to have met Draheim over a beer to try and sort the whole thing out, and begged off a challenge match due to having undergone recent surgery."


***NEVER met Draheim over a beer...he put a spy in my school/found out I was scheduled for double hernia surgery/came into my class two weeks after the surgery/ talks 5hit about William Cheung/claims to be one of the 6 guys who surrounded William in Cologne,Germany 10 years earlier...and challeneged me...I said no, of course not - since you already know about my surgery...but I can arrange for someone else...which Keith Mazza did...Draheim gets punched/kicked numerous times...goes to the hospital - and has me arrested for assault - out of pure fear - since I told him that I'm not through with him - and I'll be back to fight him myself in 6 months....he never shows up in court/and the case was thrown out....and Draheim disappears - putting the word out that he went back to Germany.

And as for your wise-a55 trolling...please don't think you're fooling anybody. My offer is not for you to fight a now 65 year old William Cheung...but to go to one of his future seminars - repeat the same garbage that you've been saying here - and then watch/experience what the TWC instructor organizing the seminar in his city does about/to you.

I know all of the instructors; and trust me, not one of them will be upset with me for making such an offer - to a man - they would look forward to your arrival.

[EarthDragon]

Wong Fei Hung you said

One thing that im starting to notice more and more which is ironic is that whenever someone does something a little different in traditional martial arts they are scolded because its not in line with tradition yet in years gone by every master had created their own style.

This is so true however I would like to bring up a point. many centuries ago before these "masters" created thier own style they acutally "Mastered" the
style in which they studied.

If you spent the proper amount of time and i am talking about decades, to master somethnig you then have the right to modify, change or improve your art or even create a new one.
HOWEVER recently no one has mastered thier art before they tried to change it. This is the problem. And hence the ridicule and scolding as you said.


So really i guess if you feel what you are doing is right then you should follow what you feel, not so much keep on mimicking, after all if you copy someone else you can only always come in second place compared to them.

Again true statement however there is a difference with adding your own flavor based on body type size agility etc etc and creating a new style or changing your present one........... be well

[Wong Fei Hong]

This is so true however I would like to bring up a point. many centuries ago before these "masters" created thier own style they acutally "Mastered" the
style in which they studied.

I tottally agree , the result of making your own style is a mess if you havent mastered the style. We all know there are enough of those around, its more about adapting than changing.



About the wing chun deal i am starting to think that ultimate wing chun is the troll. 1stly i said i got the bone to pick with william cheung now your telling me it wasnt a challenge on his behalf becasue he is 60 years old, but to go to his seminar to challenge one of his students. That if you ask me is not trolling its gay, if you feel you wanted to fight me why dont you just say it ? Instead of nominating another instructor.
Also i will say it again, i wont have anything to do with some half assed go to a seminar and see what he will do to me, he can scratch my booty thats what he can do to me.

If you feel william cheung would be offended and want to fight me we do it the 21st century way in a ring, if you feel william cheungs student would want to fight me we also do it that way But he would be nominated on behalf of the whole of the twc system and he would fight using wing chun. I too can get someone on my behalf to fight who is a pro fighter that looks nothing like wing chun.

If i wanted to get sued on a number of 10000 grounds i would go to a seminar with my "people" and then see who comes out on top, comprende.

You want to stage an event i dont give a toss i get my fee i go there win or lose i get paid no one knew me before no one knows me afterwards.
K-1 rules 3x3 min rounds i want it staged at a proper show which is televised.
10,000$ thats it , im sure half the world would tune in to see william cheung fight.

Thats the last ive got to say on this topic in fact im getting tired of your bull****.

[Ultimatewingchun]

You're a slick talker, WFH...but two facts still remain:

1- You've talked a whole lot of 5hit on this thread about William Cheung.

2- When invited to repeat that talk to ANY TWC guy worth his salt (ie.- an instructor, of which I'm one) - in person - you've danced all over the place. (And as for T.V./ $10,000. purses/ K-1 rules...pleeeeez!)

Nuff said.

[Wong Fei Hong]

Thanks for the compliment !!

As for talking sh1t about william cheung i stand by it . I was highly dissapointed with every encouter i had with him in seminars and what i saw in "the incident"

As for having beef with anyone else who does wing chun not really. I have friends who train it in various branches , and i have even reccomended people to go to TWC teachers.

As for the whole k-1 thing, i dont see it as unfeasible, so many people use this as a medium so much money would be generated and i would get a tiny cut of it :D