The smartest living martial artist. [Archive]

rogue

12-03-2005, 08:04 PM

Bruce Lee was, of course, an intellectual. He had special insight into life and the martial arts, and the talent to explain and demostrate his ideas in a unique way. The way he gave new life to dead arts was nothing short of amazing. Ed Parker ran a not so close second but is still one of the most important thinkers in martial arts. After that I'd say Rorian Gracie who I think is an underestimated genius.
So with Lee and Parker dead who besides Rorion would you say is the smartest living martial artist?

Of course I'm The Real Original Lucky Louie. Accept no substitutes.

Wong Fei Hong

12-04-2005, 03:59 AM

I would say albert einstein cause he could go back in time and whoop your ass. But we all know that gene ching taught him that so my vote for smartest.
Gene Ching :D

David Jamieson

12-04-2005, 06:59 AM

Bruce Lee was, of course, an intellectual

Compared to a cabbage maybe. Mostly he was a movie star, I wouldn't classify him as intellectual though. Mind you, he did cop a lot of stuff out of confucian, taoist and buddhist teachings and drop them into the western lap as we were all starting to be interested in it.

I think narrowing to a 'smartest' thing is too terminilogical. The smartest martial artists probably changes by the moment.

rogue

12-04-2005, 07:51 AM

Come on KL, name someone whose writings and thoughts have changed martial arts more than Bruce Lee. Funukoshi, Yip Mann, Wallid Ismael?

BL had some very serious brain power. The man was a diamond in the rough, but still a diamond.

David Jamieson

12-04-2005, 08:22 AM

Come on KL, name someone whose writings and thoughts have changed martial arts more than Bruce Lee. Funukoshi, Yip Mann, Wallid Ismael?

As martial artists discover the various sources that inspired Bruce, one could look at him as more of a reiterator as opposed to innovator.

If I take a gun to a place that never had guns, will they view me as the inventor of the gun?

SPJ

12-04-2005, 08:37 AM

Let me derail the smart thing a bit.

Inspiration in MA.

A punch is just a puch (in the beginning). A punch is not just a punch (in the middle). A punch is just a punch (in the end). BL

war. war. what it is good for? absolutely nothing. y'all. song quote in the movie by J Chan.

whatever that is you do so well is your style. Chow Xing Chi in German TV interview 2005.

The difference between Ba Ji and Tai Chi is in the horse riding stance. Liu Yun Qiao.

----

:D

Lohanhero

12-04-2005, 08:41 AM

do you know all living martial artists?

Wong Fei Hong

12-04-2005, 09:03 AM

Tbh i never read bruce lee's writings , but what i did see go through at a friends house like tao of jeet kune do and things like the movie silent flute that he "wrote" its a rip off of zen and taoist stories that i read elsewhere with one guy going through all the stories.

However If you read that jesus and buddah wrote the same things who copied who ? Neither remember gene ching taught them :D

But you get the gist of what i mean, these things have been around for longer than we can remember.

About being a smart martial artist, i reckon that ashida kim is smart cause he makes lots ofpeople to talk about him. I think wong kiew kit is smart cause he gets people to pay him 1500$ for a couple of days. If that counts :p
There isnt really a definition for smart i dont think because the above 2 people fought the least and yet made the most cash.
Or maybe tyson is the smartest, that guy fough,t had a good rep and got paid such a phenomenal amount of money for what other people do for free or for 100 times what other people got paid.
Gracie are super smart i mean look what they did, they took an art modified it created their own and then they put it in the right place at the right time and made a whole new genre of martial arts and artists. It could have been pure greco roman wrestling that made that boom.
Funakoshi could be granted smartest he gave a whole series of generations martial arts ... up to 28th in the lineage of funakoshi are teaching now adays , and how did he do this , by turning a trad okinawan art only 100 years ago into the very first mcdojo.

Bruce lee acted and i dont really see what you mean by his writings changing martial arts more than anyone else. All he did was adhered by the principal first you learn then you adapt.

rogue

12-04-2005, 04:22 PM

As martial artists discover the various sources that inspired Bruce, one could look at him as more of a reiterator as opposed to innovator.

If I take a gun to a place that never had guns, will they view me as the inventor of the gun?

And Einstein stood on the shoulders of Newton. BL saw truth in what those others said and took it light years further along. Just because someone invented the Blunderbuss doesn't mean that Winchester wasn't a genius with his rifle. Many today forget what a sorry state martial arts were in during the 60's and 70's. Bruce Lee saved the martial arts from self destructing by being an iconclast. If master (fill in name here) knew what BL knew then why doesn't anybody know who master (fill in name here) is? Even the WC people and old kickboxers have to grab onto BL's coat tails.

Of course I'm The Real Original Lucky Louie. Accept no substitutes. Ask for it by name.

Wong Fei Hong

12-04-2005, 11:20 PM

I have to admit about the wc bruce lee comment but i think most of the wing chun guys used it as a marketing tool and nothing more, about the kickboxing which evolved from point karate i dont think this really has much to do with bruce lee if he even competed once or hosted an event i would say ok... Bruce lee used to invite black belts to train with him, so the foundations were already in place.
But in all honesty I dont think bruce lee had that much to do with the spread of martial arts or the evolution for that matter, ok a lot of people felt the kung foo and karate craze but, even if bruce lee wasnt there delegates from japan were in europe and america from all the head japanese styles anyhow for about 20 years before bruce lee. People had so much give n take with martial arts due to the whole japan america ww2 thing.
I mean i can honestly say gracie was responsible for mma to boom with ufc but i cant say that bruce lee did anything near that.

SPJ

12-05-2005, 09:17 AM

there are many and many smart and innovative practitioners of MA all the time.

Sun Lu Tang studied Xing Yi first. He stressed Kai He in Tai Chi-> Sun style Tai Chi.

Zhang Zhao Dong incorporated Xing Yi into Ba Gua. his student Jiang Rong Qiao in Kuo Shu Guan in the 1930's promoted Ba Gua thruout China. Jiang's Ba Gua Zhang book was the most read about the style.

BL may be well known. WC was widely taught by Leung Ting. Just about every southern style will teach WC. WC was the most known and practiced Kung Fu in the world. I believed that BL has something to do with WC propagation.

Chen Chang Xing summaried boxing methods from Chen Wang Ting. Lao Jia Yi Lu and Pao Chui Er Lu. Yang Lu Chan propagated it in Beijing.

Ma Yin Tu in Kuo Shu Guan and Liu Yun Qiao in Wu Tan. They both propagated Ba Ji fist. Their teacher is Li Shu Wen.

Ding Zi Cheng with Liu He mantis (Liu He Mantis is short fist or Duan Chui and mantis together). Zhang Xian San propagated the style in Taiwan. Dang Xian Ling propagated it in China.

----

And yes, they are no longer with us.

But the contributions and influences are still with us or live on.

---

GeneChing

12-05-2005, 10:11 AM

If I was the smartest, I'd be making more money....

I think it's pretty hard to judge 'smarts.' It's too loose of a definition. You could say who has had the most impact and who is having the most impact, which seems to be the direction everyone is going with the Bruce Lee discussion here. Surely Bruce had the biggest impact because he is the most recognizable to the general population. I'm guessing that worldwide, the only person who might be in that ballpark would be Jackie Chan. Here in America, it would probably go to Chuck Norris, but Jackie is so huge in Asia and no one knows Chuck there. They know Seagal more than they know Chuck, at least in Thailand because he hawks Singha beer, or at least he used to. However, general popularity is no barometer of smarts - case and point - Paris Hilton. I'm not sure how you measure smarts. Care to rephrase the question?

Chief Fox

12-05-2005, 10:22 AM

Steven Segal is the smartest living martial artist.

JamesC

12-05-2005, 10:33 AM

Steven Segal is the smartest living martial artist.

He can't be that smart, he's still making crappy movies. AND, his hair is falling out.:confused:

SPJ

12-05-2005, 10:45 AM

Actually, people like him because of his pony tail.

His words are short. His "justice" or fist is fast.

He is loved in the east Asia from Japan down to indonesia etc.

Sort of "John Wayne" with Kung Fu or Qin Na without using gun at all.

The thing is that he is way tall for any female leading character.

---

I like his movies and so do many others.

:)

JamesC

12-06-2005, 06:27 AM

I like all of his earlier movies. Above the Law, Hard to Kill, Under Siege 1. But after those, it's like he decided he wasn't going to even try anymore. Seriously, if you watch one of his newer movies, and then watch his older ones, he is a WAY better acter in his first few.

I have only seen one of his new ones that I liked. It was the one that took place in Thailand. Where he fought the cross dresser. I liked it mostly because he added some Tai Chi to his Aikido.

Wong Fei Hong

12-06-2005, 06:49 AM

Talking of seagal i think i should start a thread on this, as some of the dumbest things youve heard people tell you who dont know, you know about martial arts.
Some guy was telling me in all seriousness that steven seagal went to japan and learnt from ueshiba, he then shagged ueshibas daughter, and ended up marrying her, and is now the inheritor of aikido.
I think the guy who told me this doesnt actually count as nominee for smartest martial artist.....:rolleyes:

SPJ

12-06-2005, 08:59 AM

Oh, I need to go to the video store to check out his new movies.

on topic: there are many and many teachers that are making impacts.

Adam Hsu: published books and dvd and taught many students. He is the head instructor/coach of Wu Tan. His teacher Han Qin Tang was Kuo Shu Champ from Zhe Jiang province. Han was from Zhe Jiang Kuo Shu Guan.

Su Yu Chang, Ba Ji Tang Lang

Liu Jin Ru, Cheng Ba Gua

Wang Pei Sheng (passed away last Sep), Wu Tai Chi, 3 styles of Ba Gua, Tong Bei etc

----

too many to list.

:)

rogue

12-06-2005, 01:44 PM

I am really stunned that you people hold sigung BL in such low regard. If wasn't for him there wouldn't be a Krav Maga, UFC or concept driven martial arts. You people would still be wearing funny clothes, standing in rows and punching nothing. Very, very, very sad.:(

FuXnDajenariht

12-06-2005, 03:20 PM

dude......

are you trollin? ;)

rogue

12-06-2005, 07:31 PM

No, I'm serious. 10 or 15 years ago we knew and appreciated what BL gave us. Now people have forgotten his accomplishments. I don't think there would have been a Joe Lewis without BL's training methods. I don't think there would be a William Cheung without BL's insights into WC. I don't think Chuck Norris would have made it as far as he has without seeing BL's drive.

SPJ

12-06-2005, 08:13 PM

Yes. BL inspired a lot of people both on and off the screen.

The smart artist will promote the art more than him or herself and not the other way around.

Oftentime we heard about the lineage fights. My teacher has the true learning while yours has not. Or just I know more than you do and here is why.

This only gave bad names to the style overall.

The students will know how much a teacher knows. If you are in a style long enough, you pretty much know all the people or teachers in the style.

The students only want to learn the style and not to be involved with political fights among bretherns.

In the early 70's, I was much inspired by master Liu Yun Qiao. He used up his pension or retirement money to fund Wu Tan mag.

to promote the art more than promoting oneself.

I was not allowed to see Bruce Lee movies. "Too much violence and blood from broken glass or metal hook hand etc".

Altho, I enjoyed Kato in "green hornet".

My friend had a bigger TV. Me and my brothers were invited to watch the first episode of green hornet that aired in Taiwan.

We waited for an hour before the show. We asked each other who is Li Xiao Long. My friend said he was born in San Fran and now acting in hollywood. He kicks and punches as fast as lightening.

I said wow. I thought my long fist teacher was the best. I only knew Tan Tui at the time.

---

:D

Wong Fei Hong

12-07-2005, 06:06 AM

I think the whole thing with bruce lee is also based on when you were around, a lot of people who are young nowadays would think that muhammed ali was useless look how skinny he is etc etc.
I mean looking at the new fighters they are just amazing, i saw the latest k-1 and jerome le banner is just amazing, it looks like he had slabs of beef for muscle transplants :D
So people who didnt grow up with bruce lee, see the after effects and what they see is some films , which are nothing compared to nowadays movies, and they see styles, of which none apart from jkd are attributed to bruce lee.

But when you are living it at the time, then when you look back you remember the memories of how good it was. Kind of like saying marilyn monroe was the defininive sex symbol.

Also i think because of the spread of martial arts a lot of people do what bruce lee did themselves, they evolve so they dont really see it as anything spectacular.

Personally i prefer kato from pink panther over kato from the green hornet but thats just cause im weird.

I don't think there would have been a Joe Lewis without BL's training methods. I don't think there would be a William Cheung without BL's insights into WC. I don't think Chuck Norris would have made it as far as he has without seeing BL's drive.

I dont know how much of this is true, you could say without chuck norris and without joe louis withoutt jhoon ree bruce lee would have never made jkd since these are the guys that he picked up his kicks and body shifts from.

Mr Punch

12-07-2005, 07:19 AM

Rogue is correct about this:

The effect Bruce Lee had on the development of MA was HYYYYUUUUUGE.

Anybody who says otherwise is using rather wonky hindsight.

It's like the Beatles; I don't particularly like them but they changed the face of pop music forever.

That's not to say in either case that other people didn't do similarly amazing things but they did them anyway IMO.

Don't know how smart Lee was though. His wisdom was blatantly plaguarized from Tao te Ching, Chuang Tzu, old Chan stories and whatever... definitely smart marketing but he didn't even really repackage it enough, so nowadays anybody who has read the originals just thinks 'Cheeeesy'!

Steven Segal however is a dumb ****wad from start to finish. (http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/scams/steven_seagal/2.html)

rogue

12-07-2005, 09:15 AM

mickey

12-07-2005, 03:37 PM

Greetings,

My vote would be Dan Inosanto. He is a brilliant example of ongoing evolution. What Bruce Lee talked about....he lives. Though I have never met the man, he has my respect. When it comes to that ongoing self development, he may have surpassed his teacher.

mickey

YongChun

12-07-2005, 04:52 PM

If dollars is the ctiteria for smartness, then the smartest is Leung Ting because be made more than 10,000,000 dollars even in the 1980's and further more so did his student Kernspecht and Kernspechts student Emin Boztepe. So that's definitely smart. As for theory, Leung Ting published books full of philosophical thoughts relating to fighting. Of course he got that stuff from elsewhere but was able to make it into a commmercial success. Also he claimed to have taught more than a million people Wing Chun, hence his big bucks.

If fighting is the standard for excellence then neither Bruce Lee or Leung Ting would take the prize. Being on top is only a temporary thing. People get old.

If inspiration is the criteria for smartness, then maybe chairman Mao should get the prize. He must have inspired the most people. Perhaps Ghandi gets a second if not first?

There is no real measure for true smartness in the same was that there is no real measure for which is the best fruit. Is the best fruit an apple, an orange, a banana or what? Human achievement is the sum of all that went before. Some of the components in the sum are unfortunately negative but sometimes these negative components inspire positive results.

The deepest martial arts thinkers may not be known to most people. The average person cannot appreciate the depth of knowledge of an expert. For example how many people can understand Einstein's relativity theory? The average person on the street has only heard that Einstein was smart but he doesn't know why? More difficult to understand is the depth of knowledge that Andrew Wiles (who proved Fermat's last theorem) had. 99% of experts in the field cannot understand his work.

For depth and smartness, Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Hsing I and Aikido are in the running for a spot.

Ray

TaiChiBob

12-08-2005, 02:02 PM

Greetings..

The "smartest" living Martial Artist is known by only a very few people.. that's what makes him/her smart.. they don't get caught-up in this nonsense.. it sounds like you are looking for the most enterprising Martial Artist.. A certain GM's insider trading in real-estate probably trumps most others..

Be well..

David Jamieson

12-08-2005, 02:26 PM

wouldn't it be easier to determine who is NOT the smartest martial artist?

Like that dude who tried to rob his students house only to be beaten by his students.

or the iron palm guy who had a h0m0 affair with a student who was a little light in the discretion department?

or how about the guy who makes bagua videos with a swiss ball and all he does is circle walk around the swiss ball. It's like he has no clue as to what that thing is for, so he walks around it. lol

or how about everyone who thinks that bruce changed the face of martial arts forever. lol *poke*

Bruce lee had virtually zero influence on my choices and decisions concerning martial arts. In fact, he mostly only has any sway whatsoever in jkd circles and is otherwise seen for what he is, a movie guy who did some kungfu in a time when there wasn't much fancy ass fighting on screen.

there are plenty of proficient martial artists from a variety of backgrounds who have only at best heard his name, never have they read any of the stuff he wrote and none of them have gotten into jkd.

Anyway, if smart=money (which in many cases it seems so for some reason despite all the rich idiots out there) I would go with Leung Ting as well because he is rich richity richy richington from his martial arts doings.

If smart = upholding the integrity and purpose of martial arts, then there's a few names you could slot in there.

If smart= fighting ability, then the smartest one is whoever holds the championship today. Tomorrow it might be someone else.

If smart= ability to express a valid opinion on any number of subjects, or to be able to recall facts and figures with relative ease in those subjects (this is what I would consider smart), then also a lot of people fall in this category.

SPJ

12-08-2005, 10:29 PM

Thomas Edison once said.

99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.

Thruout his life, he invented many things.

MA is the same. Yes, there are people that are talented in physical ability and in understanding the in's and out's of why and how.

However, for most if not all, practice 99% to gain skills and 1% to understand via practice.

so practice, practice and practice. and to understand everything via practice.

if there is no practice, then there is no Gong nor Fu.

PangQuan

12-08-2005, 10:38 PM

Anyone who feels inclined to insult another martial artist who has contributed to the world of martial art, should ask themselves one thing.

Have they done more, as a whole, than the individual who they are cutting down?

If not, they simply spout empty words...to ridicule through action is different than to speak through speculation or ignorance. Go, and show us.

Wong Fei Hong

12-08-2005, 10:57 PM

Pangquan i reckon really the question isnt did we do more good than they did, i think the question is could they have done more harm than good.

Case in point funakoshi, he spread karate to the world if it wasnt for him there would be no wado ryu no shotokan none of the other 400 branches of any of karate. Apart from systems like goju.
Is that generally a bad thing, in my eyes not really funakoshi did more to ba@stardise martial arts than any other human who ever lived in our lifetime, why because he never fought and never could even apply his techniques. He made the first mcdojo was in with the japanese for the glory of it with his other karate buddies and jigoro kano thrown in the mix.
If choki motobu had spread karate the whole art would have been as credible as boxing with proper fighters everywhere, it wouldnt have took another 100 years for people to come along with things like kyokushin to actually get karate back on track.

rogue

12-09-2005, 06:24 AM

David Jamieson

12-09-2005, 06:56 PM

And what do you base this conclusion on?

I'm guessing that it's only the kyokushin guys who take it to the real as opposed to many other karate houses that keep it on the down low.

The K1 is what really brought the karate thing and mas oyama back into the light. Finally here was some full contact karate again and it was all mas's idea....sort of. He did want to adjust sport karate afterall and if K1 is any measure, then he certainly did in the end.

Besides all that, there is only one Karate!

and so on

p.s my dragon style step of the broken gate is more powerful than your fistful of cheetos style.

SPJ

12-09-2005, 08:12 PM

MA overall is a group activity over time even over generations.

Many practitioners brought on more "stuff" or more finer points.

even though, a lot of people like to subscribe to the idea of one man did it all.

Or just one person gets all the credits.

such as Song Tai Tzu, general Yue Fei, Zhang San Feng etc etc.

whatever style that we are practicing, if we may add some stuff or fine tune some points, then we are contributing to the smartness in the style.

what we will be called, the future gen or students will be the judge of that, I think.

---

:)

David Jamieson

12-10-2005, 06:30 AM

what we will be called, the future gen or students will be the judge of that, I think.

It's been centuries already and still there are fanboy mentalities when it comes to martial arts and who propogated what.

"so and so is the greatest master to have lived" or "my sifu is the greatest fighter I've ever seen" and so on. This stuff of course is pure nonsense and yet there it is. Not to mention the persistence fo my style vs your style and so on.

I wonder how any sifu would feel having his art co-pted by a former student, adapted slightly then told that this is a better way. (not that any art belongs to any sifu, but generally the living style bearer is pretty protective of what he has, usually because it's all he has, which is pretty normal human behaviour)

MA-ists are one screwed up lot of characters when it comes right down to it. Despite the training. lol.

Once we do find our kungfu though, it tends to be difficult to find us.

greendragon

12-10-2005, 11:56 AM

Wong, you can't be serious BL got his kicks and body shifts from Chuck Norris ? BL was a cutting edge genious while Norris was still a male prostitute on the streets of Las Vegas. Before BL everything was closed door with jealousy and rivalry between styles and nationalities,. Today we all grow together.
Smartest historically, O Sensei - Sun Lu Tang
Smartest living, Yang Jwing -Ming, Gin Foon Mark, Phillip Starr,
Let's not forget Jackie Chan's teachers, the three stooges.

TaiChiBob

12-10-2005, 01:51 PM

Greetings..

MA/CMA is a work in progress.. if not, it is dead. Kudos and humble bows to the ancestors, their gifts are our treasures. But, it is we and our generation that keep the arts living and evolving. No style should be kept prisoner of its tradition, each worthy contribution of each successive generation is deserving of respect. No individual opinion sets the standard for a style or even a single technique, the style or technique lives or dies on its own merits.

There are great living Martial Artists, to be so bold as to suggest a "greatest" is to misunderstand the arts in general. A style is a style because there are other styles, a style is great because there are other great styles. It is a dis-service to to many great martial artists to suggest that one is superior to others. We are fortunate to live in a society that tolerates the wisdom of such broad diversity. We are less fortunate to feed our egos with the illusion that we possess some distinct knowledge permitting us to evaluate some great Martial Artist as the "best of the best" ( or "smartest" depending on the standard, IQ, wealth, etc...).. is it not sufficient to embrace the rich depth of great teachers without inciting conflict over which is the "best"? More-over, i suggest that, in reality, there are Martial Artists never publicly known that would likely rise to the level greatness under our egotistical scrutiny. Their greatness is magnified by their humility and unknown by their wisdom to be remain the shadows..

Great Martial Artists i have been fortunate to study with are people like Chan Pui, Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming, W.C.C.Chen, Mme. Cui Yu Li, Wei Lun Choi, Hu Sheng Hui, and i dare not suggest that any one is superior to another. Each has contributed to their arts, each has profoundly affected the lives of countless other martial artists, each is greatest in their own unique way... Heck, i have benefitted from my Kung-Fu brothers and sisters as much as from the great teachers, they keep the lessons alive, they demonstrate the strengths and weaknesses of the lessons, they are the life-force of the arts.. the Arts live through the dedication of the students, perhaps it is they that are the greatest "living" martial artists..

Be well..