wing chun wins NHB contest

[aaron baum]

Hello guys

Myself and Neil Broadbent both competed in the Open National Finals NHB contest in the UK last month. Neil became Lightweight champion and i was runnerup in the Middleweight category.

It was a great day for the school (Ying Hung Wing Chun Kuen, Alan Orr Sifu). Are standup skills gave a good show and help go towards dismissing the idea that wing chun cannot flourish in that environment, which we are both proud of.

The whole journey of the training and competition has taught me a great deal and shown to me that the true skill is slowly forged through application and putting yourself in pressure sitautions.

Neil is fighting in Cage Warriors in february and more Iron Wolves will follow. Wing Chun is a deadly system when fighting for real, so why not show it can work in the cage as well?

Aaron

[lawrenceofidaho]

That's great, Aaron!!

Congratulations to both you and Neil on your excellent showing....... :)

(Can you give us an idea of what your fight prep training schedule looks like?)

[anerlich]

Congratulations to you both.

[Matrix]

Great news.
Congrats to Aaron and Neil. Thanks for representing the art so well. :cool:

[Ultimatewingchun]

Aaron:

Congratulations! :D


Can you give us any details (or perhaps post some video) as to how the fights went...ie.- how much standup was used, the extent of the close quarter wing chun moves that were used, use of or defense against takedowns, any groundfighting that might have occurred,etc. ???

I know that Alan has been studying some of Tony Cecchine's Catch wrestling vids (and that he met Tony for the first time earlier this year). Btw, Tony is my Catch instructor as well.

Give us some play-by-play as to how the fights developed...and give my regards/congrats to Alan!

[stricker]

well done guys and good luck with the move to pro rules with headshots.

and yeah how do you balance different areas of training? drills, forms, chi sao, pad work, wrestling/rolling, sparring, conditioning, do you do any pumelling? can you give us like a %age breakdown??

have you changed the drills or chi sao at all compared to trad wing chun in terms of what you are aiming for?

cheers.

[Kaitain(UK)]

http://www.alanorr.co.uk/index.html this is their website. Wing Chun, Escrima and Catch Wrestling.

It should be noted that the amateur competitions they entered allowed no strikes to the head - IMPORTANT - they declare this themselves, so it's not bullshido. However, it does limit things when discussing something like this as proof of effectiveness, and certainly takes it out of the "NHB" category declared in the title.
http://www.alanorr.co.uk/htdocs/nhb/teamironorr.html

Props for stepping up and competing in a non-coop format. Congrats on the win/s

Look forward to seeing how you do in Cage Warriors

[ghostofwingchun]

Congratulations Mr Baum surely this is a wonderful achievement! You mention that your wc worked in the cage . . . so did you and your collegue win your nhb fights standing with wc? I ask because my wc friend fight in a nhb event too but win by armbar not wc.

Thanks,

Ghost

[sihing]

Congratulations Mr Baum surely this is a wonderful achievement! You mention that your wc worked in the cage . . . so did you and your collegue win your nhb fights standing with wc? I ask because my wc friend fight in a nhb event too but win by armbar not wc.

Thanks,

Ghost


Wing Chun has armbars...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Aaron:

No headshots allowed? Is that true?

[stricker]

win by armbar not wing chun? well how did he get to the armbar?

also i am 99% sure it was a no headshots contest, so like kaitan says that does take away from the claims a bit, but still theyre getting in there and theyre winning.

you gotta remember most people entering mma usually come from a background like boxing, muay thai, wrestling, judo, whatever. this means they have competition experience already, and maybe after theyve worked on rounding their game a little (eg a judo dude does some boxing training or a muay thai dude trains on the ground for a bit) theyre ready to step straight into full mma rules.

If youre going straight into mma, or coming from a nonsport background (like wing chun) its hard. your novice fight you may end up with someone else also a novice at mma, but with a load of thai fights under their belt or a black belt in judo or bjj, and that aint really too fair. so thats the idea of these amateur comps, build up some experience before entering full rules.

still wish them the best of luck in pro rules eg cagewarriors. also from what ive heard the amateur comps attract a lot more wrestlers adding punching in, where going pro your more likely to end up fighting a boxer or thai boxer whos done a little groundwork. in the amateur mma comps ground and pound isnt much of an issue either more just body shots, so the ground game is v.different too.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Let's wait to hear from Aaron about match rules........

Amateur division's rule structure will change the fights somewhat, but it's still a tough game and challenging test of skills any way you slice it.

It's no picnic to have another skilled & conditioned athelete giving it everything he's got to bust up your ribs, kick your legs out from under you, and take you down and slap a submission on you. (A punch to the face is only one one thing to worry about in a fight, -there's a number of others.)

Props to Aaron and Neil, no matter if it's amateur or pro rules.

-Lawrence

[anerlich]

Wing Chun has armbars...

And BJJ has kicks and punches.

[aaron baum]

cheers for your response guys...much appreciated and sorry for any confusion over the rules....we as a school just want to spread the word of wing chun as a system and cant wait to hear someone announce one of us as a Wing Chun fighter in say the UFC etc or King of the Cage...neil is fighting in cage warriors in feb and the plan is to compete in LA next year on one of Eddy Millis' shows, so i will let you know how we do.....

you are correct in that the comp was amateur rules...full contact striking below the head....one of the main reasons for starting here was to gain as much experience as possible in this environment (most of the guys we have fought have been bjj guys who grapple and punch a bit) whilst learning how to deal with the pressure of competing etc...it was good experience for us to compete in an environment not ideal for our system and the lessons learned on how to deal with the takedown etc were invaluable.....to take away our main weapons of striking the head etc which our system thrives on and still go so far was a good marker of how robust our system is....we cant wait to take some people out, in 11 amateur fights i have never been hurt once through striking etc whereas at training i am regularly in pain and seeing stars....weve both felt held back from the real fun during this comp as our system loves to be close in, leather flying etc...this comp was about getting experience before the fun really begins...even though this is the case neil has won all his 7 fights (one with a submission from body shots alone) and i have lost 1 in 11...we have both won with a variety of techiniques such as armbars, double wrist locks, rear naked chokes, guillotines and arm across chokes...

we have learned many things but one of the major ones is how robust and fit you need to be...you may go full out in training to the point of collapse but in a comp environment it really is amplified due to nerves, audience etc...my training schedule consisted of 5 weeks of:

5 morning runs (sprint laps and plyometrics included) followed by an hour of kettlebells, qiqong and form

4 strength/fitness training sessions a week..2 hours of bag work, plyometrics, body weight exercises, circuits etc...

4 school training sessions a week...2 hours grappling, sparring, chi sau etc...

plus stretching etc every day....

and we still both blew at points, i was armbarred in the final round of the final with 4 seconds to go and winning on points by a bjj guy who took a pounding all fight....a lesson well learned eh? he waited all fight for my one mistake and took it...

there are some pics, reviews and movies of the fights this year on our site...www.alanorr.com/htdocs/nhb/fightreview.html with more to come....we as a team intend to fight in many arenas such as kickboxing, grappling and stick comps to continually gain more experience and to have some fun....if anyone else has competed in any arena please let me know your experiences as we all can learn from each other and move our system that we all love forward....

best

aaron

[aaron baum]

cheers for your response guys...much appreciated and sorry for any confusion over the rules....we as a school just want to spread the word of wing chun as a system and cant wait to hear someone announce one of us as a Wing Chun fighter in say the UFC etc or King of the Cage...neil is fighting in cage warriors in feb and the plan is to compete in LA next year on one of Eddy Millis' shows, so i will let you know how we do.....

you are correct in that the comp was amateur rules...full contact striking below the head....one of the main reasons for starting here was to gain as much experience as possible in this environment (most of the guys we have fought have been bjj guys who grapple and punch a bit) whilst learning how to deal with the pressure of competing etc...it was good experience for us to compete in an environment not ideal for our system and the lessons learned on how to deal with the takedown etc were invaluable.....to take away our main weapons of striking the head etc which our system thrives on and still go so far was a good marker of how robust our system is....we cant wait to take some people out, in 11 amateur fights i have never been hurt once through striking etc whereas at training i am regularly in pain and seeing stars....weve both felt held back from the real fun during this comp as our system loves to be close in, leather flying etc...this comp was about getting experience before the fun really begins...even though this is the case neil has won all his 7 fights (one with a submission from body shots alone) and i have lost 1 in 11...we have both won with a variety of techiniques such as armbars, double wrist locks, rear naked chokes, guillotines and arm across chokes...

we have learned many things but one of the major ones is how robust and fit you need to be...you may go full out in training to the point of collapse but in a comp environment it really is amplified due to nerves, audience etc...my training schedule consisted of 5 weeks of:

5 morning runs (sprint laps and plyometrics included) followed by an hour of kettlebells, qiqong and form

4 strength/fitness training sessions a week..2 hours of bag work, plyometrics, body weight exercises, circuits etc...

4 school training sessions a week...2 hours grappling, sparring, chi sau etc...

plus stretching etc every day....

and we still both blew at points, i was armbarred in the final round of the final with 4 seconds to go and winning on points by a bjj guy who took a pounding all fight....a lesson well learned eh? he waited all fight for my one mistake and took it...though to be fair we did have three fights on the day, the prelims were 2 x 3 min rounds and the final was 2 x 4 mins with 2 mins overtime! just learning to get up and down mentally on the day was a lesson learned.....

there are some pics, reviews and movies of the fights this year on our site...www.alanorr.com/htdocs/nhb/fightreview.html with more to come....we as a team intend to fight in many arenas such as kickboxing, grappling and stick comps to continually gain more experience and to have some fun....if anyone else has competed in any arena please let me know your experiences as we all can learn from each other and move our system that we all love forward....

best

aaron

[ghostofwingchun]

Sorry Mr. sihing! I should have said armbar from guard . . . I am not aware of wc having ground game . . . standing locks seem a controversial topic . . . many say they are mcdojo . . . I am still not sure.

Thank you for your reply Mr. Baum! We are all proud of your accomplishment!

[FooFighter]

Mr. Baum,

Great report of your success. A win for wing chun is a win for everyone in the wing chun family. I hope you will allow us to see a clip of your fight.

[Phil Redmond]

So much for the WC people can't compete idea (whether it was amateur or not).
Big props for you guys, and thanks.
Phil

[ghostofwingchun]

Mr Redmond what is this wc cannot compete idea you refer to?

Thanks,

Ghost

[Phil Redmond]

Mr Redmond what is this wc cannot compete idea you refer to?

Thanks,

Ghost
Mr. Redmond . .? I'm just Phil here. ;)
I was refering to statements made here and other forums that WC can't work in a competitive environment. I've always known better and your competitive results were very refreshing.
Phil

[aaron baum]

cheers for your responses guys...as soon as i put some pics and movies up of the comp i will let you know....

best

aaron

[ghostofwingchun]

Thank you Phil for explaining this . . . but I can't understand why anyone would say wc can or can't work . . . isn't wc only as good as person using it?

Thanks,

Ghost

[Tom Kagan]

Mr. Baum,

Great report of your success. A win for wing chun is a win for everyone in the wing chun family. I hope you will allow us to see a clip of your fight.

If you truly believe that a "win for wing chun is a win for everyone in the wing chun family," then you must also conclude that a "loss for wing chun is a loss for everyone in the wing chun family".

With this line of reasoning, it will take a cadre of Aarons and Neils a decade or more to fill the hole dug by the legions who came before them who have have lost. Only then would they be able to begin to scale the mountain formed by the win/loss records of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Wrestling.

Here's a thought: Lets stand on our own two feet. Punch, Kick, push, pull, thrust, slice, grab. Fall down, get up. Win ... and lose.

Fight the good fight, finish the course, keep the faith, and all that crap? Yeah, sure, why not. But lets do it ourselves. After all, that's what Aaron and Neil are doing... or should be.

[Matrix]

With this line of reasoning, it will take a cadre of Aarons and Neils a decade or more to fill the hole dug by the legions who came before them who have have lost. Only then would they be able to begin to scale the mountain formed by the win/loss records of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Wrestling.Tom,
Thanks for raining on the parade. ;)
I think the point is, that one success demonstrates that there is hope for those who continue to train as "keep the faith" as you said. In my opinion, the art itself is great. We however fail as individuals. I think that BJJ and MMA tends to attract the more physical and mentally aggressive individuals to their arts because the sweat, blood and guts mentality is much more apparent and therefore appeals to their persona. Most of these guys could not stand still doing SLT for hours on end. It would drive them crazy. They want the more immediate gratification of smacking someone upside the head or choking them out. So, in some ways it is self-fulfilling cycle. Since so much of success in fighting is mental, these guys come in with that frame of mind built-in.


Here's a thought: Lets stand on our own two feet. Punch, Kick, push, pull, thrust, slice, grab. Fall down, get up. Win ... and lose.

Fight the good fight, finish the course, keep the faith, and all that crap? Yeah, sure, why not. But lets do it ourselves. [/i]How does this differ from any other martial art? Why Wing Chun? BTW, in case it's not clear I'm just trying to be a bit of a devil's advocate here. I certainly understand your point and agree with it to some degree.

Peace,

[lawrenceofidaho]

If you truly believe that a "win for wing chun is a win for everyone in the wing chun family," then you must also conclude that a "loss for wing chun is a loss for everyone in the wing chun family".

With this line of reasoning, it will take a cadre of Aarons and Neils a decade or more to fill the hole dug by the legions who came before them who have have lost. Only then would they be able to begin to scale the mountain formed by the win/loss records of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Wrestling.

Here's a thought: Lets stand on our own two feet. Punch, Kick, push, pull, thrust, slice, grab. Fall down, get up. Win ... and lose.

Fight the good fight, finish the course, keep the faith, and all that crap? Yeah, sure, why not. But lets do it ourselves. After all, that's what Aaron and Neil are doing... or should be.
Right on, Tom. Very solid post.......

In the last paragraph, though, I would have issue with the phrases; "finish the course" and "keep the faith", as one might imply that it means most Wing Chunners are already doing all the right things to obtain realistic fighting skill and just need to continue on...... The recent VTAA conference review thread pointed out (to me, anyway) that few WC people are actually training in a way that will enable them to fight, -so if this is, in reality, a goal of theirs, I think they ought to consider some changes in their training program.

Video clips posted on Alan's site have shown him and Neil working together on a number of interesting contact sparring drills (both standing and on the ground) that appear much more realistic than the training done by clubs that mostly work on; forms, simple pak & punch type of drills, and light-contact chi-sau.

I think everyone needs to be reminded that if you want genuine fighting skills that you can use under pressure, then your training regemin is going to need to look a lot more like what Alan & Aaron are doing than what the (seeming) majority of WC schools are up to.

This is why I asked Aaron to give us an idea of what his weekly training routine might look like.

-Lawrence

[lawrenceofidaho]

immediate gratification of smacking someone upside the head or choking them out.
LOL!! :D

[ghostofwingchun]

In some sense I understand what Foofighter is saying . . . the results of these gentlemen does lend support for view that wc can perform in realm of modern fighting and not just paper tiger as some say . . . just as early UFC helped prove potential of jiujitsu to those unfamiliar with it . . . though not to same extent I understand . . . and so results are win for wc family as whole just as UFC was win for Gracie family. The loses by wc fighters in early fights did reflect on wc as whole too . . . which is why wc is considered bullshido by many . . . so I think there is something to what Foofighter says . . .

Thanks,

Ghost

[Alan Orr]

Hi Guys

This is Alan Orr, Aaron's teacher. Thank you for your feedback on the hard work on my guys.

They been fighting all year to the get into the finals. Each time developing a rep for hard striking and powerful body control.

Yes some will say Amateur rules would not be NHB, but this was an Amateur NHB event, in which all striking below the head was full contact. Which in fact was the main reason I put my guys in. Why? because it proves the structure power of the Chu Sau Lei System of Wing Chun. If you can control a grappler you must have correct use of your body power, which is why most Wing Chun guys can not. Many Wing Chun branches can not hold up when someone is trying to take them down. Thats why in mma circles Wing Chun has lost face. Our goal was to restore this for our method of Wing Chun. I been in Wing chun for 17 years and have also been grappling for the last 7-8 years so I have a good insight into the whole process. I been training with Eddy Millis of the Shark Tank for 3 years now as well. Thats given me a good understanding of the fight game. The training is much harder that most Wing Chun will do, in terms of conditioning and impact training.

A note on one of Neils fights he TKO the guy with a body shot.

So, I agree this is a great win for Wing Chun, but its also a greater win for the Chu Sau Lei Branch of Wing Chun as that the system of stand up we use, this is very different in terms of its use of structure to most of the Wing Chun you will have see.

Now, many people in the past have tried to play games on what is right and wrong and lots have said opinions on my teachers system. But unless you have seen it or felt it then the feedback would have no value. I myself only talk about what I have seen or felt in a constructive manner.

I train my guys hard, forms are key, conditioning, we sparr a lot, we Chi Sao and Gor Sao with control but with a figthers mind set. Playing Chi Sao is part of learning of course, then you must step it up and learn to apply it's skill in the real world. Body Structure is key to that.

Again many thanks for you kind words of support.

You should hear lot more fight news soon. Plus I have some of the guys fighting full contact NHB this year!

My best

Alan

www.alanorr.com

[Tom Kagan]

How does this differ from any other martial art? Why Wing Chun? BTW, in case it's not clear I'm just trying to be a bit of a devil's advocate here.

For, at a minimum for what I wrote, it does not differ from any other martial art and should not.

As for why, it's the same reason for me as it as always has been: Habit.



In the last paragraph, though, I would have issue with the phrases; "finish the course" and "keep the faith", as one might imply that it means most Wing Chunners are already doing all the right things to obtain realistic fighting skill and just need to continue on...... The recent VTAA conference review thread pointed out (to me, anyway) that few WC people are actually training in a way that will enable them to fight, -so if this is, in reality, a goal of theirs, I think they ought to consider some changes in their training program.


Taken what you quote in the context of my entire paragraph, I have said nothing with contradicts you. If the people whom you have in mind are not doing it themselves, then what course are they trying to finish?

[lawrenceofidaho]

Taken what you quote in the context of my entire paragraph, I have said nothing with contradicts you. If the people whom you have in mind are not doing it themselves, then what course are they trying to finish?
I agree, Tom. -I actually think you're right on with what you said.......

I was only concerned with the wording being miscontrued by certain folks who think that any type of WC training will eventually lead to combative excellence (provided you stick around long enough and eventually pay to learn the teachings of the secret scrolls).

-L

[Tom Kagan]

I agree, Tom. -I actually think you're right on with what you said.......

I was only concerned with the wording being miscontrued by certain folks who think that any type of WC training will eventually lead to combative excellence (provided you stick around long enough and eventually pay to learn the teachings of the secret scrolls).

-L


LOL.

Don't worry about the wording so much. If someone is going to misconstrue what I wrote and decide it's okay for them to not do it for themselves ("Look! Tom told me it was okay! See? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=646354&postcount=23)") Well then f@ck'em if they can't take a joke. I'm cool with it if they want to blame me. :)

Okay, so you want different wording? Let's let an old pro try:

You can get just so much from a good thing
You can linger too long in your dreams
Say goodbye to the "Oldies But Goodies"
Cause the good ole days weren't always good
And tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems
-- Billy Joel (1985)


(Yeah, that's clearer. ;) )

[lawrenceofidaho]

Don't worry about the wording so much. If someone is going to misconstrue what I wrote and decide it's okay for them to not do it for themselves ([i]"Look! Tom told me it was okay!..... I'm cool with it if they want to blame me. :)

Actually, Tom, I do blame you for a lot of the failures in my martial arts career (call me crazy, -WHATEVER......), and I just hate to see it happen to someone else.

;)

-L

p.s. - Nice quote from Mr. Joel.

[Merryprankster]

Most of these guys could not stand still doing SLT for hours on end. It would drive them crazy. They want the more immediate gratification of smacking someone upside the head or choking them out.

I am perfectly content to drill a technique for an hour or so, and the best guys in the world do too. I don't see that this is so different from forms.

As far as the immediate gratification part, I can safely say there is nothing immediately gratifying about BJJ, boxing, wrestling, etc. Tapping more than Gregory Hines during a recital and getting your face smashed around for six months or so because you're the latest human punching bag isn't exactly gratifying :D .

I'm not really trying to make an issue of this, I just think it kind of lends the lie to the idea that BJJ/MMA etc are "shortcuts," or something.

All of this stuff - WC, BJJ, whatever, takes so much WORK to be good at it's crazy!

[Big Vern]

Alan,
good work for wins, nice 1.
you game yourself, your not to old to compete, will you compete along side your guys maybe?
your system is very buzzword on structure etc, could you expand on that in laymans terms, and how does structure translate for grappling, I thought that grappling is more position, transition and submission.
Very happy for your guys wins about time!
BV

[AdrianUK]

Hi All

I heard last night that Vic Hoth (WT) is doing very well in NHB fights and attributes it to WT, anyone seen him in action or know more about it ?

Thanks
Adrian

[lawrenceofidaho]

I heard last night that Vic Hoth (WT) is doing very well in NHB fights and attributes it to WT, anyone seen him in action or know more about it ?

Is he a British fighter?

[AdrianUK]

LawrenceofIdaho

Yeah hes a brit, I even met him a couple of times when I was in the NWTO, seems hes now sponsored by a martial arts supply company and unbeaten in full NHB fights (so I was told by a friend), apparantly hes also in magazine promotions in Martial Arts Illustrated, can't find him on the net but I am not sure about the spelling of his surname either.

Adrian

[stricker]

used some google skillz, i think its vik hothi. again props for stepping up! id love to know what sort of nhb fights hes had and what he learned from it were but dayum it seems like as soon as the word gets out of any wing chun figher entering mma their under the microscope of the internet wannabes (myself included). i hope that doesnt deter anyone from sharing their experiences

[Alan Orr]

Reply to :

Alan,
good work for wins, nice 1.
you game yourself, your not to old to compete, will you compete along side your guys maybe?
your system is very buzzword on structure etc, could you expand on that in laymans terms, and how does structure translate for grappling, I thought that grappling is more position, transition and submission.
Very happy for your guys wins about time!
BV

Hi BV

Thanks for your post. My guys worked hard. We had 3 guys on the day in the final event, which was over a year with 3 legs to get into the final. One winner and the other runner up was good.

Yes, I plan to fight this year. should be soon if all goes well.

We our the only system to use 'body structure' in the way we do. Other styles have started using the words, but its completly different in application. You really have to see it and feel to have any rounded view on it. I do think its what is missing in other system's of Wing Chun and that's why Wing Chun has been weak when defending takedown and so on. That is only my view of course, no need for reasons. As I said it has to be seen first hand in order to develop a well rounded view on the subject. I think my videos show it very well, but its still feels strong first hand.

You can't explain structure in laymans terms in has lots of layers. But it terms of grappling it is the only way to have a good crossover between the two.

Grappling is also all about structure. But correct structure is seen more in grappling in general than in Wing Chun in general.

Thats why my guys have started to complete, really to show the system in action.

Two of my guys will be fighting full contact nhb this year.

Check out my web site www.alanorr.com the interviews with my teacher and the articles I have written may be of interest to you.

My best

Alan

[Gooseman]

Cool wins man!

Alan sorry to appear pedantic here, but there must be a condensed answer to BV's question on structure, wing chun is about economy of motion, movement and explanations. Surely it would be appropriate to give some sort of answer rather than subtly suggest buy the video.

As for Vik Hothi of NWTO, met him through WT circles, more chat than bat!
Dont reckon he has quite got the mind set for the bigger battles NHB will bring.
Not being disrespectful here IMHO.

[Alan Orr]

Hi

Yes thanks they did well.

Sure, I didn't mean to sound like buy a video and found out. I did say read the articles and so on. Its not a short answer. I will also be adding video feeds of training, fighting, shots from the videos etc within the next few weeks or so.

The other best way is come and check out what we do first hand. The door is always open.

My best

Alan

[cha kuen]

original poster
you said "Are standup skills gave a good show"

It's supposed to be "OUR" not "ARE"