Selfless Rant (Training Methods)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

In martial arts we all strive for different things. There are those who train primarily to fight and others who get more into the artistic aspect. This is fine and I have nothing against those that train purely for the art as long as they accept and admit that is what they do. However, the "purists" of TCMA as they call themselves seem to think that cross training is a sin and that their "traditional" art is all they need. First off, how can something that has changed so much as martial arts in general, not just CMA, be tradtional. Do you or your Sifu train to kill on the battlefield with your art, and no, I don't mean you throw a punch at him(or her) at the speed of a pregnant yak and you give no resistance when he strikes or takes you down. That is not the deadly training I'm talking about. The point is, take the word "traditional" with a grain of salt. No martial art today is so applicable that it cannot be changed for the better. I cross train in western boxing, have for a few years now. I also work out with a Jiu Jitsu BB to improve my grappling and ground skills. I love Kung Fu and it will always be my primary style, but some of the so called purists need to realize what they do is NOT traditional. End of Rant

Comments as to why you agree or disagree would be appreciated

[Ray Pina]

On one hand I agree: What most consider "traditional" I would consider an antique.


On the other hand: there's two things about today's "modern" martial arts that concern me. One is an emphasis on sport, which often comes down to pumping oneself up, cutting weight and trying to seek physical advantaged. While they do lead to an advantage in the ring or cage, it is a break from seeking methods for the old to over come the young, the week the strong.

The other is the idea that you can take a little bit of boxing and mix it with a little bit of wrestling and a little bit of Thai Boxing and come up with something complete.

I believe combatant arts, if you want to reach a level where the old can over come the young, the week the strong, is more like soup .... it takes time to become. You can't microwave it.

Integration, yes. Chop suey, no.

Sometimes its hard to tell the difference.

[IronFist]

My opinion: train to win fights, and follow whatever style takes you down that path.

I used to be all about TMA until I got my ass handed to me by n00b grapplers. Then I saw the light. Well, I saw the light for me. Others may have different experiences. I don't mean to offend anyone's style.

[Wong Fei Hong]

Dude when you say you got your ass handed to you by a noob grappler were you willing to really hurt him when you sparred ? I mean its one thing to let a grappler do anything in his arsenal, but for you to try and stop him by means other than hitting him hard and anywhere it hurts then its not surprising you lost.
Its fun to play fight and roll , but unless you go at it full contact you will never know if your style would stand up to a specific grappler.

btw dimmu borgir rocks and puritania is the ****ing business

[SevenStar]

On the other hand: there's two things about today's "modern" martial arts that concern me. One is an emphasis on sport, which often comes down to pumping oneself up, cutting weight and trying to seek physical advantaged. While they do lead to an advantage in the ring or cage, it is a break from seeking methods for the old to over come the young, the week the strong.

The emphasis on sports helps you to keep your edge; I would think traditional guys would like this. Gone are the days of death matches, but you can get the next best thing - step into the ring. Emphasis is on development of both skill and attributes, not just skill. Nothing wrong with that.


The other is the idea that you can take a little bit of boxing and mix it with a little bit of wrestling and a little bit of Thai Boxing and come up with something complete.

there is nothing wrong with that idea either, IMO. It leads to creating a proficient fighter faster.


I believe combatant arts, if you want to reach a level where the old can over come the young, the week the strong, is more like soup .... it takes time to become. You can't microwave it.


the old can overcome the weak with this type of training. Just not when they are fighting against guys half their age training just as hard for the same thing. You have said yourself that your teacher would get owned in the ring.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

[QUOTE=Ray Pina]


"The other is the idea that you can take a little bit of boxing and mix it with a little bit of wrestling and a little bit of Thai Boxing and come up with something complete."


I don't think anyone with the correct amount of training thinks this way. If you cross train correctly it will improve your skills, if you don't train correctly, it won't.

[IronFist]

Dude when you say you got your ass handed to you by a noob grappler were you willing to really hurt him when you sparred ? I mean its one thing to let a grappler do anything in his arsenal, but for you to try and stop him by means other than hitting him hard and anywhere it hurts then its not surprising you lost.
Its fun to play fight and roll , but unless you go at it full contact you will never know if your style would stand up to a specific grappler.

Nope. My TCMA techniques were too deadly to use in the ring ;)

Yes, I was trying my hardest and yes, I still got owned.


btw dimmu borgir rocks and puritania is the ****ing business

w00t!

[Wong Fei Hong]

ironfist gimme more details this is cool :D How long had you trained for how long had he trained for, had you ever sparred full contact before ? nd how did it go down basically ?

Btw do you like iced earth ?

[monkeyfoot]

good thread

I personally do things by the book so to speak. I have nothing against cross training (i did wing chun as well as mantis once) but i personally feel that when im fighting I try to stick to they style I am training in. Thats not to say that in a street fight I wouldn't throw stuff up in the mixer.....I would use whatever it warrented at the time.

I would come under the catogary of someone who sees kung fu as an art and I would say our organisation is traditional. Traditional not as in we are training for the same purposes as the people who created it (battlefield etc) but traditional as in we try to stick exactly to what has been 'handed down'. I am actually taught very religiously about some things even if I think it would work better another way......

But in the end I practice kung fu for the spiritual, philosophical, art side of things.

ciao
craig

[SevenStar]

good thread

I personally do things by the book so to speak. I have nothing against cross training (i did wing chun as well as mantis once) but i personally feel that when im fighting I try to stick to they style I am training in. Thats not to say that in a street fight I wouldn't throw stuff up in the mixer.....I would use whatever it warrented at the time.

In a real fight, you will fight the way that you have been training...

[TAO YIN]

Seven,

What is this? "In a real fight, you will fight the way that you have been training..."

Are you talking specifically for martial artists? Where do 220 pound hillbilly crank addicts train, and what do they train? Bikers? I know quite a few of these like, and I've never really seen them train anything. Actually I know many a "real fighter," who doesn't train, fights sloppy, and bounces heads off his head as he laughs at the blood coming out from his nose and toothless grin. What about that footy player a while back you were talking about. You said he gave some of your guys a hard time. Was he just basically tackling people, spearing, throwing elbows, face masking, unnecessary roughing, and running people down, or?:confused: :eek: :p

[David Jamieson]

training and study is recommended for people who do not have innate talent or understanding.

I would say the great majority of martial artists do not know how to fight and that is why they study martial art.

many, when they come to discover what it feels like to have the wind knocked out of them, to get samcked in the face, smashed across the nose or whacked in the jaw, will no longer train to that end. lol It's true!

people who can get over it and continue on are the ones who actually can come to martial artistry. Those that are unwilling to drink bitter will NEVER know sweet.

The innate fighter is born of attitude and intention. These two things are at the pinnacle of any martial art and are the true weapons of all of them.

[SevenStar]

Seven,

What is this? "In a real fight, you will fight the way that you have been training..."

Are you talking specifically for martial artists? Where do 220 pound hillbilly crank addicts train, and what do they train? Bikers? I know quite a few of these like, and I've never really seen them train anything. Actually I know many a "real fighter," who doesn't train, fights sloppy, and bounces heads off his head as he laughs at the blood coming out from his nose and toothless grin. What about that footy player a while back you were talking about. You said he gave some of your guys a hard time. Was he just basically tackling people, spearing, throwing elbows, face masking, unnecessary roughing, and running people down, or?:confused: :eek: :p


you know exactly what I mean, man. He was saying he trains using kung fu only, but will use multiple styles in a real fight, if he must. No, he won't. He will use what is ingrained in him - using his kung fu. The guys with no training are using what they fall back on - the instincts to punch, grab, whatever. To be honest, I think that in some respects some of them (the untrained) have a slight advantage over us.

[Oso]

To be honest, I think that in some respects some of them (the untrained) have a slight advantage over us.


Absolutely.

When I was the head instructor for my old teacher and teaching most of his beginning classes, I would tell new students that they were now worse off than they were before. Once you start training you are laying new patterns over old or instinctive patterns. Until you train enough for the new information to be THE pattern you fight with your reflexes will be confused.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Good responses to this subject and what I was hoping for. One thing I would like to add are forms and the theory behind them. When I first started in MA I was told that any situation that arose in fighting could be found in forms. As time went on I learned , mostly through trial and error, that this is not the case. Forms are not totally useless and can provide fundamentals that are good for a growing martial artist. I have always thought of forms as a dictionary of movements to practice and apply. But application is the real key, and only through hard sparring with resistance will these moves be applicable. If you analize your sparring methods, most people have a few strikes or techniques they use often in sparring because they know they will work. Same goes for ground fighting. When rolling I have a few moves that work well and often for me and use them often. My current instructor told me a long time ago that more often than not, simplicity is the key. You can always tell inexperience in a fighter by wasting energy on useless garbage that would never land. Also how solid their fighting stance and guard are. Nothing makes me more mad than someone sparring with their hands at their waist. Bad habits like these are often hard to break and the quicker they are corrected, the less bad habits will be developed.

[monkeyfoot]

Yes well I would hope that my kung fu would be used when I fight (although I doubt it would be purely mantis due to not having spent 10 years plus in the system).

What Im saying though is that no matter who you are, you cant play everything exactly by the book in a fight. Some of your movements will not be kung fu at all, or any martial art for that matter. When fights get close, grabby, and messy, style seems to go KAPPPOOOOP.

So what I was saying was, im not going to sacrifice my ass to the attacker merely because something isnt considered 'correct' to the style. If i need to smash his head on the wall.....hes gonna get it.

craig

[Wong Fei Hong]

I tottaly agree with a lot of these points, one of the guys i train with was a sea commando our equivalnt of a navy seal, basically there is only 8 of these guys per year trained out of 10,000
Thing is this guy has it in him to kick the **** out of ppl. If you took him and taught him control, the only thing it would do is ruin his abilities. Ive seen a lot of ppl who have been ****ed up by training all their lives to learn to pull punches.

[TAO YIN]

:)

Seven!! Excellent reply.

"To be honest, I think that in some respects some of them (the untrained) have a slight advantage over us."

As Oso pointed out earlier, I also think ABSOFUCINLUTELY. One of my best, and worst students ever, was a certified schitzophrenic, while my other best and worst was a big angry dummy. Why I taught them I don't know, but anyways...

This whole deal of simplicity in bashing and being a basher, aside from many other things, is one of the main reasons I think MMA has dominated and will dominate until people start taking their blinkers off. As we know MMA is about method and function; it's not so much about theory and mystique. I guess there is much to be said about who is training what and if they are looking into the mirror or not. Some people are into forms and two man, while some people are into bagwork and fighting, while some people are into all of it.

[SevenStar]

I tottaly agree with a lot of these points, one of the guys i train with was a sea commando our equivalnt of a navy seal, basically there is only 8 of these guys per year trained out of 10,000
Thing is this guy has it in him to kick the **** out of ppl. If you took him and taught him control, the only thing it would do is ruin his abilities. Ive seen a lot of ppl who have been ****ed up by training all their lives to learn to pull punches.


I see the point you're trying to make and agree to some degree, but in regards to special forces guys, I think you're wrong. The thing with them is the mindset and discipline they have been trained to have. One of our bjj brown belts (he's also a judo black belt) was a SEAL. He's placed in every national level bjj tourney he's entered over like the past 3 years and he was at one time ranked like #2 in the world in judo.

Then also, the style they are training should probably be considered. If we put him in a point fighting style, then perhaps he would be affected...

[SevenStar]

Some of your movements will not be kung fu at all, or any martial art for that matter. When fights get close, grabby, and messy, style seems to go KAPPPOOOOP.

IMO, that is very martial. what is and isn't considered fighting goes well beyond what a style should or should not look like.

[Wong Fei Hong]

I see the point you're trying to make and agree to some degree, but in regards to special forces guys, I think you're wrong. The thing with them is the mindset and discipline they have been trained to have. One of our bjj brown belts (he's also a judo black belt) was a SEAL. He's placed in every national level bjj tourney he's entered over like the past 3 years and he was at one time ranked like #2 in the world in judo.

So what part did you disagree with ? you just evaluated what i said ?

[Becca]

However, the "purists" of TCMA as they call themselves seem to think that cross training is a sin and that their "traditional" art is all they need... Comments as to why you agree or disagree would be appreciated

My Sifu is something of a purist. He had his elbow broken a few months ago sparring with a more senior Sifu. He never missed teaching use a class, and his version of teaching is very much hands on. I'd say that if he feels that's all he needs, more power to him.

My question to you: Why are you more conserned with everyone else's traing and beliefs?!?!?!? To each their own.:rolleyes:

NOW, GO TRAIN!!!:mad:

[SevenStar]

So what part did you disagree with ? you just evaluated what i said ?


I don't think that training the guy you were referring to would hurt him, provided he's training in a contact style.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

My Sifu is something of a purist. He had his elbow broken a few months ago sparring with a more senior Sifu. He never missed teaching use a class, and his version of teaching is very much hands on. I'd say that if he feels that's all he needs, more power to him.

My question to you: Why are you more conserned with everyone else's traing and beliefs?!?!?!? To each their own.:rolleyes:

NOW, GO TRAIN!!!:mad:


Becca, I could care less how you or your Sifu train. My rant started because of those who claim that everything can be found in TCMA. Cross training in other styles can and will benefit you. By the way, I see in your profile you study Pai Lum, which is my primary style. This is a very good system, as you probably know, it is a hybrid of Five Animals, Pai's family style, Kenpo, Judo, and many other systems Daniel K. Pai learned and held rank in. Pai Lum is a hybrid cross training style. There are many ways to train and become a better fighter and the point I was trying to make was not to limit yourself to one thing or discipline.

And yes, I will go train as I do every night. But thanks anyway for the advice.;)

[Becca]

But you forgot to answer why the prattle of others bothers you so much...;)

And everything I need to learn at this stage of my training can be found in my style. I have also trained ninjitsu for 8 years. That is what I needed at that time and place in my training. Do you care ? No. And nor should you... Which reallly makes me wonder why you care about the beliefes of people who have even less in common with you than a fellow cross trainer.

And P.S. Traditional is more of a state of mind than a collection of movements...

[Chief Fox]

I would say that many kung fu styles (if not all) are made up from pieces of other styles. Mantis is influenced by Tiger and Monkey amoung other things. Wing Chun is influenced by snake and crane. So in essence, if you study a specific style of kung fu then you are cross training in other styles because of the influencing elements.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

But you forgot to answer why the prattle of others bothers you so much...;)

And everything I need to learn at this stage of my training can be found in my style. I have also trained ninjitsu for 8 years. That is what I needed at that time and place in my training. Do you care ? No. And nor should you... Which reallly makes me wonder why you care about the beliefes of people who have even less in common with you than a fellow cross trainer.

And P.S. Traditional is more of a state of mind than a collection of movements...


What bothers me is not TCMA, it's TCMA who have a watered down, non-sparring, too much emphasis on forms, style of martial arts that claim it is the most lethal and deadly art that exists yet they do not train in an alive setting. Do I care that these fools believe themselves to be something great, absolutely not. I do care about the ignorant novice martial artist who is looking for good training and doesn't know any better. Also, if you call an art that was used for fighting and killing traditionally a traditional art, it should contain elements of fighting, such as hard sparring, ground fighting, conditioning, and so on. It becomes a real problem when underqualified people spout off about being martial artists who are **** poor fighters. It makes the martial arts look like a joke and discredits those who are for real, and that is what I care about.

[SevenStar]

I would say that many kung fu styles (if not all) are made up from pieces of other styles. Mantis is influenced by Tiger and Monkey amoung other things. Wing Chun is influenced by snake and crane. So in essence, if you study a specific style of kung fu then you are cross training in other styles because of the influencing elements.


While that is true, cross training in the sense of "being complete" involves training a striking style and a ground style. Looking at it from that perspective, it is not crosstraining. Not only that, but you specifically aren't cross training. You are merely studying a style that is the result of someone else's cross training.