question for the sparrers

[kravi]

hey everyone,

anyone ever feel this?

when i spar people at my school, i find my game will drop if they are not 'competitive' or 'vicious' enough...

i find myself evaluating my partner based on the first few seconds... gauging their responses to jabs and kicks.... seeing how well they can move and so forth..

But i know that if a guy is a mediocre kicker.. then for some reason i get it into my head that the 'problems' involved with dealing with kick are out of the question..

I'm trying to analyse myself and critique why i get so lazy with so called "easier" targets... like if a guy will throw a side kick and i completely blind side him, because his balance, positioning and retraction are all out of sync.. then i tend not to go in for a flurry of attacks because i feel it's a pointless cheap shot.

But following this, maybe it's me getting c-o-c-ky (edit: apparently this word is 'rude' because of the first 4 letters)... and thinking i don't have to work hard to tag them so therefore, why bother going in full force and whole-heartedly on every step?

ive just noticed this pattern within myself - alternatively when i spar someone who is much better than me, i find myself just bursting with energy, and basically giving it 100%..

just wondering if anyone else feels this way.

cheers.

[bean]

i know where you are coming from, in terms of easing off on someone you think will not challenge you, but look at it this way, what is he/she going to learn if you do this?
what are you going to learn?

if you ease of they may also, they may be thinking the same thing!

i would suggest you just 'go at it' like you would any partner you are paired with if the pairing is unsuitable and they really cannot defend, ask to spar with someone else..

[lawrenceofidaho]

i get so lazy with so called "easier" targets...
Try using it as an opportunity to work on the weakest parts of your game. Forbid yourself from utilizing your best techniques, or handicap yourself in another way which will "even the playing field" and make it more of a challenge for you.

-L

[45degree fist]

When I train, I try to chooses a partner better or even with myself because they will always give you a wake up call or reality check.

you easing up may be like robbing that person of theat experience. If they see it as a reality check then cool they will train harder. If they see you as a bully then why are they even training.

[kravi]

i think ive explained myself incorrectly...

I think i might have sounded like im saying "im better than some people that i spar, therefore... i shouldn't bother sparring properly"...

this is definitely NOT the case... im the first person to say there is something to learn from sparring ANYBODY...

I think what im trying to get across, is that if im sparring someone who is less experienced, or themselves being lazy (for example, jabbing but letting the punches drop).... ill let my game drop because my mentality becomes such that, in order to tag them, i don't have to work as hard.

This is basically what im saying, or asking ... do you guys/girls feel that ?

What you people have written in response is still valuable, particularly with regard to robbing people of opportunities for them to learn from their mistakes.. and i dug the idea of capping particular attacks to utilize in optimal situations..

But yeah... maybe i need someone just to tell me to stop being lazy, and stop complaining :)

cheers,

[YongChun]

I think just match your fighting to the level that your partner is able to put out. In a school with lots of type of individuals then one approach is to have everyone practice with everyone. If a 240 pound guy is training with a 90 pound grade 6 girl then he can't go all out. Both could waste their time training with each other. On the other hand the big guy could train on the sensitivity, timing and distancing aspect by trying to outdo her without resorting to more speed or strength than she has. If your goal is selfish only or you want to be the next UFC champ then your training partners should be selective and you shouldn't train with people who are not your match. A good partner should do what it takes to bring his partner up to a higher level. In this way the whole club improves and then everyone will have better people to play with.

Ray

[anerlich]

Ray is correct. If you're sparring with someone you can beat, go 5-10% above them to challenge them. There's no point reducing them to a grease spot on the floor.


If they see you as a bully then why are they even training.

"Beating people up for their own good" is counterproductive. Trainees have to ease into higher pressure and harder contact incrementally.

[Jam_master]

i think ive explained myself incorrectly...

I think i might have sounded like im saying "im better than some people that i spar, therefore... i shouldn't bother sparring properly"...

this is definitely NOT the case... im the first person to say there is something to learn from sparring ANYBODY...

I think what im trying to get across, is that if im sparring someone who is less experienced, or themselves being lazy (for example, jabbing but letting the punches drop).... ill let my game drop because my mentality becomes such that, in order to tag them, i don't have to work as hard.

This is basically what im saying, or asking ... do you guys/girls feel that ?

What you people have written in response is still valuable, particularly with regard to robbing people of opportunities for them to learn from their mistakes.. and i dug the idea of capping particular attacks to utilize in optimal situations..

But yeah... maybe i need someone just to tell me to stop being lazy, and stop complaining :)

cheers,
You should never drop your game for anyone. What if a guy want's to test you out, or draw you in with a purposely thrown bad technique just rto lure you in??? Can you afforst to be so lax even though you know it's not a real fight situation. WHich all the more reason why you should never drop your game, because if you ever happen to be in one, that bad habit of yours may surface in a real life and death situation without you realising it. It's a bad motor response to harbor.

Don't cheat yourself, and don't cheat your sparring partner of such a valuabe attribute like giving your all, and following through all the time. Remember also that in a real life situation you can't afford to ever get laxed or bored because the guy your facing may not be as good to you. What if his friends that may come from out of nowhere want to take swipe at you. It happens!

[wei wu wei]

I agree with both Lawrence and Jam Master.

If faced with a weaker, less committed opponent, work on a particular attribute by limiting the tools that you use. Work, for example, timing and closing, or reading telegraphed motion.

Your duty is to adopt and utilise the principles of Wing Chun. Therefore, each opponent person should be dealt with in the most efficient manner possible.

However, one should be cautious against temporarily sacrificing ones own skill to accomodate weaker opponents during sparring. This will serve only to dull the conditioned responses that are being inadvertantly programmed. As an example, if you fail to enter and hit in sparring, you are becoming predisposed to following the same mechanics in a street fight.

Similarly, you are doing your opponent a disservice if you fail to show them the cause of their ignorance.

Also be cautious about training with mediocrity, as you can only expect mediocre results. If it gets to the point that you are not being challenged in your class, leave. Try to maintain a regime where you are training with individuals of high calibre.

[omarthefish]

Compare and contrast:



"Beating people up for their own good" is counterproductive. Trainees have to ease into higher pressure and harder contact incrementally.



Ray is correct. If you're sparring with someone you can beat, go 5-10% above them to challenge them. There's no point reducing them to a grease spot on the floor.


with:



Don't cheat yourself, and don't cheat your sparring partner of such a valuabe attribute like giving your all, and following through all the time. Remember also that in a real life situation you can't afford to ever get laxed or bored because the guy your facing may not be as good to you. What if his friends that may come from out of nowhere want to take swipe at you. It happens!

This tells me thta Jam Master has never sparred with anyone that was truly any good.

[AmanuJRY]

This tells me thta Jam Master has never sparred with anyone that was truly any good.

Really? I don't see how.:confused:

[omarthefish]

Maybe I phrased it in reverse and should have said that he himself is just not very good....but that would be rude now wouldn't it.

Have you never been in the position of choosing not to reduce your partner to . . .to use your own colorful phrase, "a grease spot on the floor"?

Assuming you have been in that position, do you think that you robbed your partner of the ability to get the most out of his training by holding back or did you help him? When does it stop being "sparring" and start being "coaching"?

I have some people I spar with about twice a week at a local gym. The last time I worked with them my handicap was that I had to promise not to hit them. lol. It was excellent training for me AND for them. I encouraged them to try as hard as possible to hit me and although I feignted at them a lot and made aggressive motions I never hit them. Then later I decided that wasn't enough so I spent some time with my hands essentially at my sides. That way I could guarantee that I would get hit and could experiment more with my body method. I encouraged them to punch at my head so I could slip and occasionally head but their punches.

Now they were having a hard time and when one guy got too tired he rotated out and I got a fresh partner. I did this for about an hour straight last Thursday.

Now imagine that with those same guys I went "all out"? What are either of us supposed to learn from that? How to clean blood off the floor? How to administer CPR? How to convince new training partners to work with me? Likewise, the same exact position is reversed when I go to see my shifu. Then...I get to be the guy who is coddled. Shifu has to assume the role of coach.

If you talk professional fighters you will find that most of them don't go all out either. You always have to keep in mind the relative skill of your opponent. This is TRAINING not fighting.

[AndrewS]

FWIW,

usually when I outclass the person I'm training with I do a few things for them and me to make things productive.

1). I lay back and watch more. I'm more passive and look for nice pieces of timing and pressure to work off of, try to find the magic place to land the perfect thing, giving the other person more of an opportunity to pressure me, while trying to catch what I'm looking for on timing and 'feel' my opportunities under fire. I find this translates well to finding those opportunities when working with people with more serious skills.

I think this is what the original questioner is feeling themself do- they're not under pressure so they aren't giving pressure back. While coming up to someone's intensity level is cool, you don't want to be a slave to that- you're working on *their* rhythm- in fact both with getting lazy and coming up to speed your're working off the other person's rhythm and pace. I'd argue that you should learn to recognize both conditions and be a slave to neither of them- try to learn to be lazy, have weird timing and frustrate the better guy not letting them put pressure on you, and burst in on the guy who makes you lazy with a series, draw them to pressure you, then cut their timing with burst- that sort of thing. Don't know if that makes any sense at all.

2). Pick something that they need to be able to deal with and I want to do better and work that. I just spent 10 rounds trying to catch an underhook on my significantly smaller and less skilled partner looking to set up a knee series, guillotine, or single. My clinch is now tighter, and he's much better at keeping somone from grabbing hold of him.

3). Play- I'll clown and go for creative things- make series up, try to set up the takedown I've been working on, gamble and see where I wind up and have to recover.

4). Limit myself- start from the bottom, or having my back taken, or let the neck tie happen, or only control strikes, don't return fire, try to only stop knees and kicks using offbalancing and hand strikes- whatever.

5). Gas myself with tougher opponents first- run through the highest level of competition in the room first, so when you get to the weaker players you give them the edge.

While I can respect the urge to keep each other honest by banging on each other, I find that working around 20-50% is enough for 'honest', anything over that (at least for the folks I've worked with) carries with it a pretty decent chance of getting your bell rung, nose broken, or cheeks resurfaced, and should only be trained maybe every month or two, 2x a month tops, if you're just gonna be a hardworking amateur. Train hard every once in a while so you *know* when that shot would've given you what you wanted, spend most of your time working hard enough to be 'honest' but not so hard you fry your CNS and develop your timing.

The problem with all this, of course, is that most people have no f*ckin' clue what the reality of fighting is, all the talk of 'timing' and 'honesty' lacks any basis in reality.

Andrew

[anerlich]

to use your own colorful phrase, "a grease spot on the floor"?


That was *my* colourful phrase, and I stole it from one of my instructors.

[omarthefish]

Whoops.

Btw, wxcellent comments Andrew. You picked up on something I hadn't thought of: Pressure.

When I go with these guys, although for me it is pretty light, I make sure for them they are feeling the pressure. Periodically I will jump it up for a second just to keep them on their toes.

The other thing I didn't mention in my last post, which I think Andrew already knows about, is that I have been really looking into how badly people tend to handicap themselves.


The problem with all this, of course, is that most people have no f*ckin' clue what the reality of fighting is, all the talk of 'timing' and 'honesty' lacks any basis in reality.


Yes. But what I have discovered lately is that much more than people underestimating the offense of their opponent, they OVERestimate their own stopping power. So lately I have decided that the FIRST step to any productive sparring with a new partner...and this is turning out to be surprisingly difficult...is to make sure that they have no problems hitting me.

I have discovered that the vast majority of the poeple I encounter, not all but the great vast majority, are just plain not willing to hit me hard enough for it to be worth my time. So I've been working on coming up with drills to break that handicap. When I look back I realize that most of the really hard hits I have taken sparring weren't even intentional. When people actually hit me on purpose they tend to hold back way too much. This interferes with the honesty because no one gets to find out how you will react, turn, buckle, stiffen up, fall down, etc. when hit. This is PARTICULARLY a problem with relative begginers, especially if they are fairly fit because then they think they are hitting hard when they really hit like little girls. If you can get past that psychological barrier, then I think you tend to see a jump in "skill" sometimes in a single evening that otherwise can take 6 months or even a year in some people.

As long as we are on this subject (sparring) this thread:

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=Xing;action=display;num=1133987574

...is just pure gold. (with the exception of some minor flaming that only lasts about 2 pages.)

[stricker]

excellent stuff guys, keep it coming.

at the mma club i train at i'm on the bottom rung of the sparring ladder at the moment so thank fck theyre not at all like jam_master or id just have got knocked out a lot. it might be hard to remember what you did wrong and how to fix it when you come round!

thai boxers work the pads hard, spar light and then fight hard!

what andrewS said about working from bad positions or limiting yourself is especially important when your rolling on the gound.

also ive found it useful to drop the idea of being competitive. eg. when i first sparred mma i went against a very good thai boxer who totally outclassed me stand up but i thought we were more even on the ground so i went for the takedown every time. problem was i didnt actually gain any skill doing that, as we roll all the time anyway. now ive learned to take it to the other guys strong area when sparring (opposite of a real fight). that way if i spar a boxer i want to stand and if i spar a submission dude i want to go to the ground. that way i'm learning the most. if (big IF hahaha) im better than the other guy in some area than obviously it would be the other way round as he would want to benefit.

[anerlich]

I tihnk the attitude that the more advanced person be responsible for helping their less advanced fellows along is a good attitude to cultivate in any gym or kwoon.

Help 'em get better, they'll get skills to challenge you more and appreciate you for it as well.

Beat 'em up every time "because you need to use all your skills and don't want to let your guard down for a microsecond", they'll rightly think you're a self-centred d0rk who deserves comeuppance. If your class is a situation where that attitude is necessary to survive the class, then IMNSHO it's a poor environment for learning.

MA group training is about cooperation. It's not all about YOU.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Here's my take on the theme of this thread:

I almost always spar everybody the same way; that is, when there's an opening, I take it. When there isn't - I try to make one. Whenever I have to play defense - I play it.

The only difference I make, depending upon my opponent's skills...is the intensity I use - in terms of speed and power. (Don't want to bully those who can't keep up with me - and don't want those who are skilled to think this sparring match is going to be easy :cool: ).*


*The only real exception I make to the above is when I'm working with one of my students who needs a lot of work on something or other: then I might purposely feed them things they need to see...perhaps not do any blatant attacking - so they can just work on some aspect of their offense, etc.