WC's bread & butter techniques [Archive]

Ernie

12-08-2005, 12:05 PM

Come on Ernie...you know what I mean ;) . Is there something that you find yourself doing often when you glove up? Are there some "things" that are easier/more dfficult for you.

I know that we are training to just respond with kungfu to deal with whatever, I'm just taking a step back and looking to see if there are responses that occur more often than others after the fact.

Thanks Liddell and Jeff. What would you say are WC's gross motor skills? Please expand on your answers when you have some time.

Bro,
i was being serious , if your looking for a pak or a lop or a whatever , your in essence ''chasing hands'' chasing a perconcieved notion of what you think [hope] a fight will be like , this is flawed and why technique people are very limited and have all kinds of problems [in the real world not the preprogramed game created in the school]

your minds ability to take in adapt and change is the core of everything , your minds ability to not be emotionally attached to any particular technique or set of techniques free's it up to use all , any or portions of the motions you have trained

there is only speed ,timing ,distance , power , change and position , these things are constants in any fight , how you train you ability to navagate these is your bread and butter =)

sihing

12-08-2005, 12:12 PM

Bro,
i was being serious , if your looking for a pak or a lop or a whatever , your in essence ''chasing hands'' chasing a perconcieved notion of what you think [hope] a fight will be like , this is flawed and why technique people are very limited and have all kinds of problems [in the real world not the preprogramed game created in the school]

your minds ability to take in adapt and change is the core of everything , your minds ability to not be emotionally attached to any particular technique or set of techniques free's it up to use all , any or portions of the motions you have trained

there is only speed ,timing ,distance , power , change and position , these things are constants in any fight , how you train you ability to navagate these is your bread and butter =)

As a end result I agree totally with the above. You can't be thinking "WING CHUN" anything when you are being attacked. The time for that has already taken place in the training you have done before hand. You should be comfortable with any of the things mentioned in the previous post. Your focus should be on your opponent and not on the outcome or what will be used during the encounter. Remember the idea is not perfect Wing Chun movement, but to allow your body and mind to work together to get to a safe place.

James

Liddel

12-08-2005, 04:39 PM

I agree with Ernies call 100%

But heinsight is 20/20 so even though one could perscribe to Ernies idea (as i do) we can look back and see more frequently used actions.

The question was "I was wondering what WC's "bread and butter" techniques are? What techniques are "high percentage"

A punch comes to mind right off the bat, would this not be true for you Ernie ?

My personal bread and butter with regard to Ernies call would be......

speed - fast
timing - immediate, same time
distance - close
power - Willing, explosive and sharp.

These are the more common things for me......It doesnt mean its the same every time though - for those skeptics out there.
:D

Jeff Bussey

12-08-2005, 04:42 PM

Hey guys,
Ernie is right when he says that looking for a specific technique to pull off is just bad news.
Agreed.
But from what I found in my limited experience is that pak sau seems to be one of those techniques that doable more often than others. That's just my opinion, not saying to forget everything else.

I guess the ultimate technique really is the punch. Hit hard and hit fast.

J

Ernie

12-08-2005, 05:12 PM

Something WSL said comes to mind [ your enemy will show you the way ]
Looking at this I would ask myself , am I capable of letting him show me the way ?[am I aware ,can I listen,analyze and evaluate]
is my skill based on a bunch of prerequisites ?[am I to busy paying attention to myself and not to him]
am I only effective if I need to stand this or that way , hold my hands this or that way ,weight my legs this or that way, acquire specific flank inside outside top bottom ?
have I trained myself to be free of such ''crutches and restrictions '' ? am I still being used by wing Chun or am I using as much of it as needed for the given situation ?

If I have ''let go'' of all the robotic patterns and ways of thinking

then I can use what ever when ever , maybe a punch , maybe a choke , maybe just controlling space , or hitting him with an ashtray or a chair ,,,,,,,
I have ended fights by head butting a oncoming punch , I have kicked people in the balls/thigh/solar plex and watched them crumble I have hit them with fist , eye jab ,elbow hell even a nice shoulder bump to the jaw in a clinch , I have bit them and freaked them out .

I have been dropped and locked and choked by these things and more many times

I can honestly say I have no bread and butter technique anymore

I just try and do my best with what is offered and keep an empty focused mind ,,,,,,,either I go down or he does mostly we will both be hurt .

back in the day it was my lead hand,lead leg and footwork I was very fast and could hit very hard while covering allot of distance , but in the last few years I have not even done that , I let it go ;)

Ultimatewingchun

12-08-2005, 07:48 PM

"Come on Ernie...you know what I mean . Is there something that you find yourself doing often when you glove up? Are there some 'things' that are easier/more dfficult for you." (Shadowboxer)

.........................

"I was being serious , if your looking for a pak or a lop or a whatever , your in essence ''chasing hands'' chasing a perconcieved notion of what you think [hope] a fight will be like , this is flawed and why technique people are very limited and have all kinds of problems [in the real world not the preprogramed game created in the school]....(Ernie)

***WANT TO PUT IN MY TWO CENTS HERE...While I agree with Ernie that you'll wind up chasing hands if you have a preconceived notion about what wing chun moves you're going to use before the engagement begins...

Perhaps a better question would be:

What Wing Chun Moves and Techniques do you find yourself using more than others...WHEN YOU LOOK BACK UPON THE SPONTANEOUS SPARRING/FIGHTING THAT YOU DO?

Ernie

12-08-2005, 07:58 PM

"

***WANT TO PUT IN MY TWO CENTS HERE...While I agree with Ernie that you'll wind up chasing hands if you have a preconceived notion about what wing chun moves you're going to use before the engagement begins...

Perhaps a better question would be:

What Wing Chun Moves and Techniques do you find yourself using more than others...WHEN YOU LOOK BACK UPON THE SPONTANEOUS SPARRING/FIGHTING THAT YOU DO?

I don't use techniques , bit's and pieces in the flow that fit with what's going on [how else could you listen to what the guy is doing and adjust ! can't if your all caught up in techniques ;)
as i said just enough , the difference between wing chun useing you or you useing the skills gained by wing chun*training*

Matrix

12-08-2005, 08:53 PM

I can honestly say I have no bread and butter technique anymore
I think that's what we should all strive for. Once you fall in love with certain techniques you limit yourself and your ability to respond naturally to a given situation. Easier said then done. I know I'm not there yet.

You often hear people ask "what is the best entry technique?" or something like that. The answer depends on the situation. That may sound like a cop-out but it is in fact the best answer. It leaves open all the possiblities. If you have a pre-set series of techniques in mind beforehand, you are counting on the situation evolving in a certain manner. It's like saying you are having a discussion with a person, but you're so busy thinking about your response while the other person is trying to tell you something that you're not really listening. You are more concerned about making your point, rather than really discussing the issue. So don't be surprised when the outcome is not exactly as you had anticipated.

wei wu wei

12-08-2005, 09:26 PM

spontaneous technique. your hands do what they are supposed to, not what you dictate them to do.

if you have to work on something, work; closing, timing explosiveness.

learn movements, understand them, once your body has programmed them in such a way that they are automated, allow yourself to move with spontaneity.

learning the system is the first stage. understanding the system is the second. applying the system is the third. when in third stage you cannot 'tell' your body to apply 'tahn dar', or anything else. instead your body does what it is supposed to do, effortlessly.

the difficulty is becoming conditioned to the point that reaction to stimulus is non-voluntary. the 'i didn't hit, it hit all by itself.'

hen

12-08-2005, 09:32 PM

Nice Post! I like it.

Some deeper meaning to the Art. One should flow...

Ernie

12-08-2005, 10:15 PM

Bill and W.W.W.

Great post and I see you get what i'm talking about ;)
you can not dictate or control outside events , energies or people
even though the path of ''techniques tricks you into believeing you can !!! ''

Best technique makes me laugh , in relation to what ? a drill in class a controlled sparring event or a guy trying to smash your head in with a crow bar in an alley ! 3 guys beating you down in a bathroom stall while your taking a **** with your pants half down ! really come on .

the old if he does this then i'll do that crap , that's for marketing and money scams , to fool the sheep .

in the end all you can do is control yourself and hope for the best :cool:

techniques should be disposable rungs on a latter that you use to climb up to higher goals , you can't hang on to them and move forward you will just stay stuck were you are ,,,,, let go and move on ,,,,,,,,,:D

Shadowboxer

12-09-2005, 12:17 AM

Remember when I posted this:

"I know that we are training to just respond with kungfu to deal with whatever..."

This is the ideal to strive for, to not be a slave to WC. You guys are reading too much into my questions. Chi sao is a lab, right. Sparring is a lab, yes? ...where you try things to see what works (high percentage) and what doesn't.

Ernie is at the place where he reponds with kungfu--he has no bread and butter technique anymore. Like Matrix, I'm not there yet. I was just wondering if there were certain things he found himself doing more often upon reflecting on his encounters and what he thinks his gross motor skills are when the sh*t hits the proverbial fan. :D

I don't have pre-conceived notions of how a altercation will go. I said chain punches set up phon sao and throwing, not I chase hands or I love x and y techniques. The guys I sparred didn't have an answer to lin wan kuen and a front kick (basic stuff)--they would just back up and turn to the side or ,even worse, turn their backs and retreat, both of which are horrible responses to be ingraining.

I would still like to know what you guys consider WC's gross motor skills to be?

UWC, do you have anything else to add.

No one else has mentioned kicking. Why is that?

Jeff Bussey

12-09-2005, 03:49 AM

I think no one mentioned kicking because it's just too slow and too easy to lose your balance. If the oportunity is there you take it, but that goes for everything.

As for talking about techniques, I've never had someone rush into the crapper at me yet. But I have been in places where there are no doors on the stalls maybe that's what happened to em :eek:

I think what Victor said is what I thought this thread was about. What have you used most. You don't see boxers with only one punch but they do have favorites, they train em all but they still have that K.O. favorite.

J

ghostofwingchun

12-09-2005, 08:37 AM

your mind !

if your looking for *techniques* in wing chun then your just doing karate with fancy names :D

Mr. Ernie I don't understand . . . wc has techniques . . . all martial arts have techniques . . . Gracie jiujitsu has techniques and it is not karate with fancy name. . . perhaps there deeper meaning to your statement than I see? Perhaps you will explain? My view is that the bread and butter of any martial art is found in its fundamentals . . . I don't see how can go wrong sticking to fundamentals . . . but that's just me . . . lol.

Thanks,

Ghost

Ernie

12-09-2005, 09:09 AM

Mr. Ernie I don't understand . . . wc has techniques . . . all martial arts have techniques . . . Gracie jiujitsu has techniques and it is not karate with fancy name. . . perhaps there deeper meaning to your statement than I see? Perhaps you will explain? My view is that the bread and butter of any martial art is found in its fundamentals . . . I don't see how can go wrong sticking to fundamentals . . . but that's just me . . . lol.

Thanks,

Ghost

I say this with no disrespect intended but i do not get into *technique* conversations ,,,, there just silly like a dog chasing it's tail ;)

techniques are just extensions of the whole ,,, branches of tree
they are not what is important it's the core that counts ,,,,

if you have the ability [attributes and skills] to control distance ,timing ,speed, position and so on you can finish with any silly technique ,,, a pak a right cross, a choke ,,,, these are not the main thing .
it's what gets you there and how well you can get there , and how you adapt when your there.
but most people just look at what the limbs are doing so they can make it fit into there mental [Style] box of this or that .
:rolleyes:

darkwater108

12-09-2005, 10:37 AM

Well guys (or gals, no assumptions here)
I train with Ernie every week for about the last year or so and I can tell you from personal experience what he said is very true. The question at hand is what “technique” does he find himself using most often and the answer is simple. He does not use any technique, move, kick, footwork, arm lock or even what he described as the non techniques such as speed, timing power etc more often than any other. The best way to describe what Ernie does have already been stated here by Ernie himself. He simply fills in the gaps that are left by the opponent. I have been on the receiving end of Ernie on many occasions and I cannot honestly say “well he does seem to favor Pak Sau often as an entry or Lop Sau seems to work great in most situations. I have never seen Ernie do the same thing twice even when I was stupid enough to do try the same thing to him twice in a row!! There is always more than one way to attach someone even when they are repeating the same thing to you. It is all in relating to your opponent. How you attack will only be dictated by time and space. What position you are in and what position your opponent is in. How they attach and how you respond is automatic and without any preconceived idea on what is correct or seems to work best. I understand the question and the answer you are looking for and in my opinion once you have reached a certain level of understanding (which I have yet to attain myself) you will find yourself not using any particular aspect of Wing Chun or any other fighting style you may be in more often than any other, you simply relate to your opponent. Just my two cents.

Douglas

Ernie

12-09-2005, 11:01 AM

Holy cheerleading squard batman !
Doug did you wear the pink toto :D

J/K good to see ya posting buddy ,,, since i have been a bit of a burn out on forums these days ;)

Doug is One of Gary's guys that does privates with my group and the guy that built my website

speaking of which i got some new idea's ! :D

darkwater108

12-09-2005, 11:28 AM

I am only here to stroke your ego my friend. =) You a**. I dont typically get much time on the forums, but when I see certain questions I feel the need to throw in a little.
Honestly I am not here to just be a yes man to Ernie, but I have seen him at work and wanted people to understand what it is like on the receiving end of this stuff. I wish it was as simple as using a Tan Sau as an interance to everything. I could have been done with Wing Chun in the first six months of training. Unfortunitly for us (the lazy) you learn the "techniques" in repitition and over years so you can learn how not to use them and just respond.

* Ernie * If you have more ideas on the site bro, drop me an email and I will get it done.

ghostofwingchun

12-09-2005, 11:41 AM

I say this with no disrespect intended but i do not get into *technique* conversations ,,,, there just silly like a dog chasing it's tail ;)

techniques are just extensions of the whole ,,, branches of tree
they are not what is important it's the core that counts ,,,,

if you have the ability [attributes and skills] to control distance ,timing ,speed, position and so on you can finish with any silly technique ,,, a pak a right cross, a choke ,,,, these are not the main thing .
it's what gets you there and how well you can get there , and how you adapt when your there.
but most people just look at what the limbs are doing so they can make it fit into there mental [Style] box of this or that .
:rolleyes:

Mr. Ernie I understand that these things are not personal . . . I just ask for clarification that's all and thank you for responding to my question! You talk about core that counts . . . why can't techniques of wc be that core too? Sure lots of things involved in making a good boxer . . . distance, timing and so on . . . but not boxing if not using jab, cross, hook . . . and lots of things go into making good wc fighter . . . but I don't know if there are same things that go into being good boxer . . . please understand I am not talking about just what limbs are doing . . . technique is more than just moving limbs . . . body mechanics is technique too. Maybe technique like bricks and other things like mortar . . . need both to make a strong wall . . . of course can say if I have mortar any silly stone will do but I do need stones to make wall . . . they are as important to wall as mortar . . . anyway, this is my thinking at the moment I do not mean to imply you don't know what you are talking about . . . testimonials from students aside . . . I am just trying to understand these things . . . and only share my thoughts so you can see why I ask questions in the first place.

Thanks,

Ghost

Shadowboxer

12-09-2005, 11:55 AM

This is from Ultimate's thread and why I started this thread. Geoff Thompson says:

Attack - The Best Means of Defence!

Imagine the scenario and be brutally honest with yourself now in your evaluation. Youâre out with your wife and you are approached by three garrulous youths with an appetite for violence. Theyâre in front of you, maybe 18 inches to 2 feet away, and closing the gap slowly but surely. They're loud, abusive and what to know, What the **** are you looking at?, What are you going to do?

Well, what are you going to do? Are you going to stand there and wait for them to attack so that you can execute the block-counter or throw that you have spent your whole martial arts career practising? What if two of them attack you at once? Can you block them both? Let's make it real, like it would actually be, all three lash in at you in the same instance, no gap between attacks. Simultaneously. What are you going to do?

From experience I can emphatically inform you that, when faced with life's malevolence, every ounce of your being will demand that you either attack first or run for your life. You will innately apprehend that waiting to be attacked is too late, way, way too late. This is where the perplexity starts because, simultaneously you will be wrestling with the ethic-indoctrinated by society and accentuated by your art that to attack first is morally and tactically wrong.

Are you going to act (with your bread and butter) or react ?

I hope this makes more sense as to what I'm getting at.

Ernie

12-09-2005, 12:07 PM

Mr. Ernie I understand that these things are not personal . . . I just ask for clarification that's all and thank you for responding to my question! You talk about core that counts . . . why can't techniques of wc be that core too? Sure lots of things involved in making a good boxer . . . distance, timing and so on . . . but not boxing if not using jab, cross, hook . . . and lots of things go into making good wc fighter . . . but I don't know if there are same things that go into being good boxer . . . please understand I am not talking about just what limbs are doing . . . technique is more than just moving limbs . . . body mechanics is technique too. Maybe technique like bricks and other things like mortar . . . need both to make a strong wall . . . of course can say if I have mortar any silly stone will do but I do need stones to make wall . . . they are as important to wall as mortar . . . anyway, this is my thinking at the moment I do not mean to imply you don't know what you are talking about . . . testimonials from students aside . . . I am just trying to understand these things . . . and only share my thoughts so you can see why I ask questions in the first place.

Thanks,

Ghost

Just Ernie bro , that Mr. stuff scares me almost as much as Sifu hahaha

you are talking about what i call the ''engine'' techniques are extensions of that engine ,,,,, different engines are better suited for certain techniques .

but when you get into the WC/VT/WT/etc,,, engine people have different idea's

and focus ,,,,,,,,,,,, thus i do not get caught up in the lineage game :cool:

and we are drifting away from the answer shadow is looking for ;)

i gave my view ,,,,, that which works for me you are more then welcome to express your view ,,, there are many ways to skin a cat ;)

ghostofwingchun

12-09-2005, 12:17 PM

I'm not sure I do understand. It would be a nice thing if we always had choice or opportunity to attack first or even run away or pick how fight occurs . . . things aren't always so simple or so clear cut . . . and besides US law doesn't recognize preemptive self-defense for persons so might get into lots of trouble sucker punching people who didn't attack us . . . maybe escalate violence by attacking first too . . . youths may have just been acting silly and not intending to fight but when you hit the first one fight is on . . . maybe there is no recipe for all situations . . .But thanks for raising interesting topic!

Thanks,

Ghost

Ultimatewingchun

12-09-2005, 09:58 PM

"Chi sao is a lab, right. Sparring is a lab, yes? ...where you try things to see what works (high percentage) and what doesn't." (SB)

***ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!

.................

"I don't have pre-conceived notions of how a altercation will go. I said chain punches set up phon sao and throwing, not I chase hands or I love x and y techniques. The guys I sparred didn't have an answer to lin wan kuen and a front kick (basic stuff)--they would just back up and turn to the side or ,even worse, turn their backs and retreat, both of which are horrible responses to be ingraining.

I would still like to know what you guys consider WC's gross motor skills to be?

UWC, do you have anything else to add.

No one else has mentioned kicking. Why is that?" (SB)

***I DON'T HAVE PRECONCEIVED notions of how a fight or a sparring match will go either. But I DO HAVE some notions about what I will do if he does this or that....or how I will attack if he's standing like this or that...or if his arms are positioned like this or that...or if his friends are there....or if he has a bottle or a knife or a stick in his hand, etc.

But those notions are just GUIDELINES that I'm NOT necessarily married to - and I may change the "loose" plan (or programmed response) in an instant (and usually without hardly any conscious thought whatsoever)...depending upon how the situation develops.

You learn the principles, strategies, and techniques - and you drill them a thousand times until they are second nature to you...and then you let that "SOMETHING" within your fighting spirit take over. And that "something" is MORE than the sum total of all the parts you put together. It's got a life all it's own that supercedes whatever it is (techniques, strategies) you've consciously learned. But the paradox is that this "something" won't come out (very well) unless you do the grunt work first.

As for kicking - I find myself using low straight front kicks and low roundhouse kicks more than anything else (and I'm including the quintessential wing chun knee-to-the-outside-connect-with-the-heel as part of the "low straight front kick" group...but by no means limited to that one particular straight front kick)...

either off the lead leg or the rear leg (I use variations of front stances mostly). Rarely ever use a completely neutral, feet-parallel-to-each-other-and-centerline-directly-facing-the-opponent's-body type stance).

.....................

As far as you're taking Geofff Thompson's advice about attacking...you raise the question "What are my bread-and-butter techniques" to use in a real, unplanned, and potentially dangerous situation?

Jeff Bussey is onto something, imo...There will always be certain moves, strategies, techniques that you will favor more than others, like Joe Frazier's left hook, Ali's footwork while peppering with the lead jab, Tyson's hooks and uppercuts, Royce Gracie's takedowns leading to chokes, and so on.

But Ernie's point about remaining SPONTANEOUS has to be respected. The bread-and-butter moves will always be there...but in truth you have to do whatever the situation dictates.

GOING WITH THE FLOW is the Ultimate Bread And Butter Move.

wei wu wei

12-10-2005, 01:59 PM

This discussion makes me more inclined to believe Sanford Strong when he states martial artists are merely "masters of concentration."
__________________________________________________ _____

I am convinced that there comes a point when you do not have any preconceived notions of how violence will unfold. And being in a state of non- preconception allows the body to express itself in its own way, without active participation. This way you do not choose the technique, it chooses itself.

If you prefer, you 'silently witness' the way your body deals with a situation (once you have fed it a steady stream of data over the course of your training). At this point, there is no preferred stance or posture, nor is there a single, or set of technique(s) on which you rely above all others.

Chi Sao is a forum for the discussion of such self-expression. It allows your body to interpret what your opponent is trying to convey. You know you are on the right path when you manage to hit your opponent and when he asks what you did, you do not know because the movement was unconscious.

Matrix

12-10-2005, 02:02 PM

I don't understand . . . wc has techniques . . . all martial arts have techniques . . . Ghost,
At one level you may see things as a series of "techniques". The distinction, as I see it, is that in WC we feel the situation and respond with whatever structure is appropriate. We do not string together a series of fixed "techniques" in reponse to a "what if" senario. The distinction may seem subtle, but it is in fact critical.

It is how the art is expressed from the underlying principles and concepts, rather than a fixed statement of 'If he does A then I will respond with B'.

Ultimatewingchun

12-10-2005, 07:02 PM

www:

Good post!

...................

But I disagree with Bill's statement:

"At one level you may see things as a series of 'techniques'. The distinction, as I see it, is that in WC we feel the situation and respond with whatever structure is appropriate. We do not string together a series of fixed 'techniques' in reponse to a "what if" senario. The distinction may seem subtle, but it is in fact critical.

It is how the art is expressed from the underlying principles and concepts, rather than a fixed statement of 'If he does A then I will respond with B'.

***BECAUSE IT'S TOO absolute. I'll give just one or two examples of what I mean.

If someone throws a rear cross at my head - I have drilled two or three responses to this scenario hundreds of times (I say two or three instead of one because certain angles or heights he may use will require a slightly different move on my part)...

But I'm ready to completely change (or transform) my responses if I SEE something different than what I've drilled for as the punch is coming in (I'm always looking at elbows when someone punches because they telegrapgh what kind of punch and where's it's going) or ESPECIALLY if I FEEL something at contact that requires a major adjustment - PRECISELY BECAUSE of the approach to chi sao that I often use (what www described in his latest post) - in which my mind gets out of the way and I couldn't even tell you later what I actually did.

Matrix

12-10-2005, 08:40 PM

But I disagree with Bill's statement:

***BECAUSE IT'S TOO absolute. I'll give just one or two examples of what I mean..
Victor,

Maybe I didn't make myself clear.

While we all use drills as a standard part of our training, I think it is wise to remember that things will not always (in fact they often will not) set up as we drill them. The problem will preset responses is that you end up in an almost endless number of combinations and permutations of factors that may require a slightly different response. So, are you going to memorize all of these potential repsonses and hope that you can rapidly choose the best one? I think that's why "entry techniques" are an often asked question. People have little or no game plan beyond the first or second move.

In your example of a rear-cross thrown to the head, your body position, balance and postion of your hands at the time the punch is thrown will have a huge influence on your response. Another large factor is how that attack is delivered. Is the attacker stepping directly into you, or moving across your body? Are they stepping with their right foot or left foot? Are they using a long step or a short step? Is it a straight cross or more of a hook? and so on............ You may say that you don't care, and that's fine. I just think you might want respond differently in one case or another.

You say that you are ready to change/transform your response IF you see or feel something different. I say you should fully expect that it WILL be different than your drill and go in with all your senses working at the highest level and respond to the information that you're receiving. There is no need to change or transform, since you are simply responding. If you go in with a set agenda, you may need to change mid-course.

You say that my response is too ABSOLUTE. That's odd since I am advocating more flexibility, or am I too absolute in my flexibilty? ;)

Ultimatewingchun

12-10-2005, 08:46 PM

"The problem will preset responses is that you end up in an almost endless number of combinations and permutations of factors that may require a slightly different response. So, are you going to memorize all of these potential repsonses and hope that you can rapidly choose the best one?"

***THIS IS A GREAT QUESTION, BILL...and one I struggled with for many years, as a matter of fact. Found the answer by grouping things into certain basic principles and strategies - and then allow the TECHNIQUE deviations to flow naturally and completely spontaneously from there.

Those programmed responses can be looked upon as the trunk of certain trees - and the branches on those tress are the almost limitless variations that can take place.

Those two or three responses I alluded to against a rear cross represent the principles and strategies - out of which any number of things can conceivably happen.

In non contact range you need more programmed responses, imo...but once contact is made - then the chi sao reflexes get to take over.

Matrix

12-10-2005, 08:59 PM

***THIS IS A GREAT QUESTION, BILL...and one I struggled with for many years, as a matter of fact. Found the answer by grouping things into certain basic principles and strategies - and then allow the TECHNIQUE deviations to flow naturally and completely spontaneously from there.
Victor,
What is most important, is that you have found a solution that works for you and that you feel confident with. As we know, 90% of the game is mental. I'm sure that your intent is solid and that is probably the key factor in any engagement. Going in half-sure of what you're of how you will respond (I'm not taking about technique-specific response here) to the situation is a recipe for disaster.

Shadowboxer

12-10-2005, 09:03 PM

Thanks guys. Keep it coming.

I am working on a Mantis DVD. One of their 12 keyword principles is "provoking" to "let your enemy show you the way" as Ernie alluded to. So, I started thinking about that...What would you (I) provoke with? One of their main provoking attacks is a pak sao with an eye jab to get the ball rolling and then ting ling (listening energy) kicks in as your opponent responds. This is what got me wondering about bread and butter techniques.

Can someone address the idea of gross motor skills? Are there gross motor skills in WC or is there no distinction between fine/gross motor skills after a certain point?

Ultimatewingchun

12-10-2005, 11:23 PM

Good point about going in half sure, Bill...

SH: What do you mean by fine/gross motor skills?

anerlich

12-11-2005, 02:32 AM

This discussion makes me more inclined to believe Sanford Strong when he states martial artists are merely "masters of concentration."

Nice dig, but I've seen better :p

I am convinced that there comes a point when you do not have any preconceived notions of how violence will unfold. And being in a state of non- preconception allows the body to express itself in its own way, without active participation. This way you do not choose the technique, it chooses itself.

Actually, Sanford Strong is a great proponent of having a plan and strategy worked out ahed of time to deal with violent crime. He's a proponent of escape over combat, also, as well as the idea that martial skill is one of the least important attributes in surviving violent crime.

I agree that the goal you mention is one to be sought by martial artists, fir their development. I doubt your discussion of it would impress Mr Strong much, though.

ghostofwingchun

12-11-2005, 07:17 AM

Ghost,
At one level you may see things as a series of "techniques". The distinction, as I see it, is that in WC we feel the situation and respond with whatever structure is appropriate. We do not string together a series of fixed "techniques" in reponse to a "what if" senario. The distinction may seem subtle, but it is in fact critical.

It is how the art is expressed from the underlying principles and concepts, rather than a fixed statement of 'If he does A then I will respond with B'.

Matrix thanks for your reply! I'm sorry but I don't see how this is any different than boxer or jujitsu or anything else reply to situation with whatever appropriate . . . they do not just string together fixed techniques in response to what if scenario. . . come to think of it other than mcdojo I don't know of any martial art that does. It seems to me that technique is getting no respect in favor of concept . . . I wonder if concepts are merely guide for beginner who does not yet have experience to know what to do or how to put techniques to work and why . . . so instead of giving fixed technique to respond to what if scenario give fixed concept to respond to what if scenario . . . it help beginner act . . . trouble with concept it seems to me is that can't tell if concept is right or wrong. I wonder if it is possible to become slave to concept . . . trying to put concept into action . . . instead of seeing situation as it is. Anyway this is how I am thinking at present. Thanks again for trying to explain this to me.

Thanks,

Ghost

Matrix

12-11-2005, 08:43 AM

I'm sorry but I don't see how this is any different than boxer or jujitsu or anything else reply to situation with whatever appropriate . . . they do not just string together fixed techniques in response to what if scenario. . .Ghost,
You are right in that you cannot SEE the difference. As an observer it is difficult or impossible to tell how the techniques evolved. The really difference is in how you mentally approach the situation.

I wonder if concepts are merely guide for beginner who does not yet have experience to know what to do or how to put techniques to work and why .No, in fact it is quite the opposite. Beginners learn the "techniques" in very much of a drilled fashion. For example, they do Pak Da several hundred times. They do not really grasp the concepts at this point. I think the conceptual view is for for more advanced players. As your understanding of the concepts and principles evolve, you really start to understand how the techniques can be applied.

I wonder if it is possible to become slave to concept . . . trying to put concept into action . . . instead of seeing situation as it is. This is a great question. And the answer is YES. In WC we learn all the principles and concepts, and then we break them. At the advanced level you need to move beyond the limits of the principles that have guided you to that point - you can take the training wheels off. You will hear people say that WC doesn't do this or that. In the end if it works, it's WC. ;)

Ultimatewingchun

12-11-2005, 09:58 AM

"Beginners learn the 'techniques' in very much of a drilled fashion. For example, they do Pak Da several hundred times. They do not really grasp the concepts at this point. I think the conceptual view is for for more advanced players. As your understanding of the concepts and principles evolve, you really start to understand how the techniques can be applied." (Bill)

***DEFINITELY !

.................

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostofwingchun
I wonder if it is possible to become slave to concept . . . trying to put concept into action . . . instead of seeing situation as it is.

"This is a great question. And the answer is YES. In WC we learn all the principles and concepts, and then we break them. At the advanced level you need to move beyond the limits of the principles that have guided you to that point - you can take the training wheels off." (Bill)

***RIGHT AGAIN ! This thread is rockin'. :cool:

Ernie

12-11-2005, 11:55 AM

Vic,***RIGHT AGAIN ! This thread is rockin'

I would have to agree , first time in a long time I have enjoyed such a great exchange of idea's :D

thanks guys !

Airdrawndagger

12-11-2005, 02:18 PM

Wanted to chime in here because this is turning out to be a very interesting discussion...

A few of you had mentioned that after you were finished with sparring/fighting/chi sao it was difficult to figure out what move you did that was so successful or stood out. As I was reading through this thread that was what I kept thinking about whenever I spar/chi sao.
Alot of times I dont even know what move I did, but the timing, speed, and accuracy was perfect for that particular situation at that particular time.
Why is it that sometimes this happens and sometimes it does not? It must be because of some mental factor or factors that fall into place that allow you to step inside the "zone" and allow you to "auto respond" to that situation.
Is this the level of "being natural"? How can we ALWAYS achieve this mental state? Or at least more often than not?

I think a lot of factors come into play but one that immediately come to mind is comfort or being comfortable.

Being comfortable with the situation, with yourself, with your environment. If you are comfortable you are calm and confident. And being calm and confident is a catalyst for sound auto responce.

Comments?

Matrix

12-11-2005, 03:19 PM

Why is it that sometimes this happens and sometimes it does not? It must be because of some mental factor or factors that fall into place that allow you to step inside the "zone" and allow you to "auto respond" to that situation.AirDrawn,
Yes, I think it is that state of mind when you get into "flow". You don't over-think the situation, you just respond as you have trained to do for so long.

How can we ALWAYS achieve this mental state? Or at least more often than not?That's the million dollar question. :)
And I don't really have the answer, other than to say that we need to train our mental state in order to achieve the optimum physical state. When you have that high level of skill, you should be able to switch in on at will. However, we often see the "best" in the world at a given sport choke under pressure.

Shadowboxer

12-11-2005, 04:02 PM

UWC,

I would classify the chain punch as a gross motor skill compared to the fine motor skill of using a phoenix eye to hit the Taiyang (M-HN-9) point--the temple--on a consistent basis. You wouldn't teach a newby the PE punch, you would start them
off by devoloping a relaxed vertical fist punch.

I'm curious about this distinction due to the effects of adrenaline dump, tunnel vision, and other stressful factors that occur during an altercation on one's ability to recall and utilize fine motor skills. If this is the case, should we just identify and train gross motor skills--the one punch practiced thousands of times analogy?

Ernie and forum,

If you were going to explore the mantis concept of "provoking", what might you try in a sparring/"alive" situation?

Ultimatewingchun

12-11-2005, 08:12 PM

Now that I understand what you mean by gross vs. fine motor skills, SB...

I would say categorically that gross motor skills are WAY more important to train (whether a beginner or not) than fine motor skills - precisely because of what you said about adrenaline dumping and tunnel vision that can occur when faced with a real life stress provoking violent situation.

Another reason, in fact, to train/memorize/program oneself with certain set responses to certain types of situations and attacks - even if they are meant to be basically just guidelines that can be improvised upon, changed drastically, or even discarded altogether at any given moment.

In fact, in my own training...I have started doing the reverse of what I've always been taught (and I suspect what most, if not all, wing chun practitioners have been taught)...concerning one's "on guard position", to coin a phrase.

I start every sparring session now WITH CLOSED FISTS, and I only open them when it's time to pak, lop, tan, bong, etc....instead of having an open hand and fingers fully extended as the "on guard position".

I believe that the closed fist from the outset provides the greatest opportunity to make EACH AND EVERY PUNCH - (and punches are the primary striking weapon) - the most powerful they can possibly be...as opposed to the general wing chun idea that the fist should only be clenched at the last second (ie.- on impact).

Adrenaline dumping definitely trumps theory - when real life violence is at hand!

Likewise - I don't believe in trying to snap the wrist (ala the one inch punch phenomena)....when all the marbles are at stake. The hand and the wrist should be treated like they were all one piece, ie. - the wrist is locked.

Phoenix eye knuckle strikes, however, can be the exception to these ideas about fine vs. gross motor skills, imo - precisely because it's just a short step from a basic closed fist to the Phoenix.

Not so with finger strikes (bil jee).

And as far as bil jee strikes are concerned, my theory is that they can best be used in those instances wherein I was already in an open hand position (ie. - a pak or jut was called for - and now there's an opportunity to follow with a finger strike to a sensitive target (eyes, throat, carotids).

And the same with palm strikes or chops...I believe they're usually best utilized after an open hand manuever has opened up a line for attack at a very close range...or after wrestling in the clinch has provided an opportunity for a close range strike.

ghostofwingchun

12-11-2005, 11:14 PM

Ghost,
You are right in that you cannot SEE the difference. As an observer it is difficult or impossible to tell how the techniques evolved. The really difference is in how you mentally approach the situation.

No, in fact it is quite the opposite. Beginners learn the "techniques" in very much of a drilled fashion. For example, they do Pak Da several hundred times. They do not really grasp the concepts at this point. I think the conceptual view is for for more advanced players. As your understanding of the concepts and principles evolve, you really start to understand how the techniques can be applied.

This is a great question. And the answer is YES. In WC we learn all the principles and concepts, and then we break them. At the advanced level you need to move beyond the limits of the principles that have guided you to that point - you can take the training wheels off. You will hear people say that WC doesn't do this or that. In the end if it works, it's WC. ;)

Thank you Matrix for your reply! I understand that beginners learn techniques . . . then they learn or develop concepts to help them put those techniques to work . . . my confusion is how this can be described as principle based martial art? The basis or beginning in that case seems to me to be technique . . . and after student learn that basis . . . the technique . . . comes principle or concept to help use that basis. You even say that later the concepts can be broken . . . but we will still be using techniques. This is why I am confused. I am wondering if principle based is one of those things that sounds profound but is really empty of substance but because we hear it repeated all the time we just accept it as true. I am thinking that concepts are substitute for experience so that beginners will have something to guide them . . . as beginners we have no experience to use as guide so only have concepts . . . but as we gain more experience it replaces concepts . . . and experts have so much experience they have no need of concepts. This is just my tentative thoughts at present . . . thanks again for taking time to explain your views and help me think about these things.

Thanks,

Ghost

ghostofwingchun

12-11-2005, 11:29 PM

Mr Parlati you seem from your comments to be very no nonsense and fighting oriented in your wc training . . . and I enjoy and find your comments very interesting in regard to adrenal dump. . . what I don't understand is your reference to biu jee strikes as finger strikes . . . are you talking about poking with the fingers as strikes to eyes and throat? It is my understanding that adrenal dump reduces ability to use fine motor control . . . and finger is run with fine motor control . . . and also reduces ability to finely target . . . so under high stress conditions we will lose ability to use fingers as weapons and ability to reliably strike small targets . . . I am thinking that this would make finger strikes pretty useless in adrenal dump situation. Would you mind sharing your thoughts on this topic and explaining your views to me? I would find it helpful.

Thanks,

Ghost

Shadowboxer

12-11-2005, 11:39 PM

I would say categorically that gross motor skills are WAY more important to train (whether a beginner or not) than fine motor skills - precisely because of what you said about adrenaline dumping and tunnel vision that can occur when faced with a real life stress provoking violent situation---UWC

What do you consider some examples of gross motor skills to be?

Jeff Bussey

12-12-2005, 03:48 AM

KPM

12-12-2005, 04:03 AM

I start every sparring session now WITH CLOSED FISTS, and I only open them when it's time to pak, lop, tan, bong, etc....instead of having an open hand and fingers fully extended as the "on guard position".

I believe that the closed fist from the outset provides the greatest opportunity to make EACH AND EVERY PUNCH - (and punches are the primary striking weapon) - the most powerful they can possibly be...as opposed to the general wing chun idea that the fist should only be clenched at the last second (ie.- on impact).

.

Hey Victor!

Interesting comments! :) Remember in previous threads when I mentioned the old western bare knuckle boxing styles and how similar to Wing Chun they were? The basic "on guard" position in the old western pugilism is with closed fists. I find that training with a "closed fist" guard instead of an "open hand" guard gives me a more "aggressive" mindset. When you already have fists made, you are immediately thinking about how you are going to hit the opponent.....not how you are going to block the opponent. Now imagine the "typical" Wing Chun Man sau & Wu sau guard position.....then make fists! This is essentially the western pugilism guard. The elbows are still in and down and the lead arm is still a bit extended....unlike the modern boxing guard position.

Keith

ghostofwingchun

12-12-2005, 06:58 AM

Hey Ghost,
When you're asking about principle based vs technique based, I understand your point. But, the way I see it is this,
Let's say you study for an exam in school. You make a definitions page and learn all of the relevant ones to that subject. When you go into the exam, you may not be asked directly for that definition but questions involving them. If you really understand the definitions, you'll be able to pull an answer together.

It's much the same with ving tsun. The techniques are our definitions and our response is how well we know them.

J

Mr. Bussey thanks so much for responding to my question! I am glad someone see what I am talking about . . . lol. Instead of definitions I see techniques as closer to operations like adding, subtracting, dividing . . . and concepts just like concepts in math . . . ways of helping us use these operations to solve problems . . . like cumulative, distributive, and so on . . . there are also strategies for solving certain types of problems and so on . . . but math is based on operations and our math skill is how well we use these operations to solve problems . . . certainly cannot solve many problems by remembering fixed solutions since unlimited number of problems . . . we learn to solve problems by using the operations to solve problems . . . practice. Perhaps we have two ways of looking at it since those ways are closer to our occupations? . . . lol . . .

Thanks,

Ghost

Ultimatewingchun

12-12-2005, 09:04 AM

"Remember in previous threads when I mentioned the old western bare knuckle boxing styles and how similar to Wing Chun they were? The basic "on guard" position in the old western pugilism is with closed fists. I find that training with a "closed fist" guard instead of an "open hand" guard gives me a more "aggressive" mindset. When you already have fists made, you are immediately thinking about how you are going to hit the opponent.....not how you are going to block the opponent."

***I COULDN'T have said it better, Keith. ;)

.....................

And training/drilling one's punching skills while starting with closed fists is a perfect example of working gross motor skills, SB.

.....................

Ghost: Your point about finger strikes being problematic in a real situation due to adrenaline dump is well taken...It's difficult - but not impossible. Don't count on using them; but if the opportunity arises and you have enough mental/emotional control at that moment - fine!

Taff

12-12-2005, 09:16 AM

Re: Starting with closed fists

Doesn't it lower your ability to use different strikes, such as palms?

CFT

12-12-2005, 09:55 AM

Re: Starting with closed fists

Doesn't it lower your ability to use different strikes, such as palms?But they don't have to be clenched tight - in fact I would say that would be counter-productive. So it wouldn't take much to open back out into a palm. But it is a good focus of intent - to attack and hit rather than focusing too much on defense.

zooki

12-12-2005, 10:28 AM

Back to the Main Thread Discussion>>

I think i understand what you are saying about "main techniques and adrenalin in a fight".

I think most people would find punching, chain punching easy. Easy, as in you will use those as second nature in a confrontation, whether or not you have adrenalin. I'd think Elbows and kicks then come in.

Time factor is important in a confrontation, when you can calm your mind and focus you can think more clearly on what you need to do and what techniques you will incorporate.

Personally I dont see Kicks as being useful in a high adrenalin, fast paced, suprise street confrontation. Punches come more naturally. So, i dont think aiming to do spinning round house kicks straight away in the above scenario is a good idea!! And generally Kicks shouldnt be used unless you really need to, i.e. nerve destruction so you can go in and finish them off with chain punches, and the kicks kept low.

Keep training hard, muscular endurance, power and speed are things that you can train and will always come in useful in any situation. So, eat good food, Skip loads, Press-ups, hindu Press-ups, chin ups, situps, leg raises, squats... Box Jumping, Side Jumping, footwork skills are all important if you want to be fully prepared and are as important as learning new martial art skills.

I wouldnt think it was too much to worry about, unless you live in a very high crime area where you risk getting beat up everyday. I'd advise moving!! On the odd chance someone does want to fight, I wouldnt think they have a great deal of knowledge about MA, but perhaps a lot of experience beating the crap out of people on streets and taking their money. This is where the above training comes in handy.

Shadowboxer

12-12-2005, 10:54 AM

Is bong lop da a gross motor skill?

Is (yut fook yee) one hand bridges two -- dealing with the boxer's jab cross/jab hook -- a gross motor skill?

Ultimatewingchun

12-12-2005, 03:02 PM

I would categorize anything (ie.- bong lop da, basic punching, low kicks, etc.)...anything that you would use FREQUENTLY in a real fighting/sparring situation - and therefore should be drilled often - as a gross motor skill.

Jeff Bussey

12-12-2005, 05:21 PM

Mr. Bussey thanks so much for responding to my question! I am glad someone see what I am talking about . . . lol. Instead of definitions I see techniques as closer to operations like adding, subtracting, dividing . . . and concepts just like concepts in math . . . ways of helping us use these operations to solve problems . . . like cumulative, distributive, and so on . . . there are also strategies for solving certain types of problems and so on . . . but math is based on operations and our math skill is how well we use these operations to solve problems . . . certainly cannot solve many problems by remembering fixed solutions since unlimited number of problems . . . we learn to solve problems by using the operations to solve problems . . . practice. Perhaps we have two ways of looking at it since those ways are closer to our occupations? . . . lol . . .

Thanks,

Ghost

Hey Ghost,
So when you solve problems mathematically, you don't do so through memorization, you do so because you understand the mathematics involved. You're using what you were taught and applying it.

I see ving tsun as when we learn it, we learn techniques, and when we use it, it becomes the concept.

If you take sil lim tau (or any form for that matter), and look at how your hand moves (transitions) from one point to another, the transition is also important, not just the final destination. So when people say that it becomes a blur on what techniques are being used in their application, I think that's may be what they're talking about.
Perhaps a good way to look at it, is that people mainly fight with their transitions of movements and because things are happening so quickly, they're onto the next one until it's finished.

J

Edmund

12-12-2005, 06:03 PM

Matrix

12-12-2005, 06:57 PM

I understand that beginners learn techniques . . . then they learn or develop concepts to help them put those techniques to work . . . my confusion is how this can be described as principle based martial art?
Sorry Ghost,
I guess was too strong in my position.
Let me reframe it.

In the beginning, you learn the techniques, within a broad framework of principles and concepts. So in my previous pak da example you are learning the technique with the overarching principle of taking the centerline. However, the beginner's understanding of the centerline is basic. They have not even begun to deal with what happens if the opponent shifts, or even moves. What happens if we are not square to each other? Where is the centerline now? So, the concept of centerline evolves as the students skills do. Their understanding deepens.

The basis for beginning is both technique and concept, however, the ability to fully understand the concept is limited at that level. There tends to be more focus on the technique because it is easier to understand - more concrete if you will, but the concepts need to evolve in order to support more complexity in the training. Concepts support the techniques and the techniques are supported through the concepts.

sihing

12-12-2005, 08:32 PM

I think some gross language skills need practicing!
WC uses mainly gross motor skills.

Gross motor skills are skills using movement with the larger muscles in the body: Walking, jumping, modern interpretive dance, rolling on the floor, moving your arms. It doesn't matter whether you're catching a ball or an egg. That's still a gross motor skill.

Fine motor skills are things like painting, writing, picking lint out of your navel, wriggling your toes, licking your lips. Adrenaline will cause these skills to suffer a little.

I like these examples of Gross Motor Skills (GMS) and Fine Motor Skills (FMS). IMO the Wing Chun delivery system is both, simultaneously. Firstly, GMS is another word for SIMPLICITY in regards to WC fighting. To me WC is overkill in allot of ways, especially when facing the average fighter. But from my understanding of WC history and creation, WC was designed to allow one to deal with highly skilled opponents, with less training time required, so here is the need for more FMS. Even in battle though things are decided pretty fast in close quarters, and IMO all serious fighting takes place in close quarters, so one should not need FMS like a surgeon to get the job done. If the two of you fighting are playing a counter for counter game (like a Shaw Bros. movie) then something is wrong or your skills & attributes are uncannily similar. In training it is nice to develop these fine skills, but in combat simultaneous attack & defense is the primary attribute to develop and to keep in mind while in training mode. This way with every counter there is an accompanying attack.

As for adrenaline rush that happens, this is a consequence of uncertainty and dwelling on the outcome of an altercation. This can be controlled if the training is proper. Put it this way, if someone is attacking you are you going to do nothing? Or will your body just react and take over, with no conscious thought. For me, I am very passive and I would wait for the aggressor to attack first (usually, not always), but this doesn't mean I have to wait for the strike to complete. Economy of motion gives one the ability to wait and launch their own attack later since the movement requires less time to reach its target. Efficiency and simplicity are also a key concept in WC and even though the art can get complex at times in training, the idea is too end things fast. Using efficent and effective movements, which to me reflect more along the lines of GMS, allow one greater chance for success than using more natural, larger movements.

James

Edmund

12-12-2005, 08:58 PM

While I agree with some of what you've mentioned, I don't believe you (and others) understand the real definition of gross motor skills.

It's not about simplicity at all. A movement can be quite complicated and difficult and still be a gross motor skill. A spinning jump kick is a gross motor skill. A backward somersault is a gross motor skill. Standing up is a gross motor skill. A handstand is a gross motor skill.

If people want to talk about SIMPLICITY then use the word "simplicity" because "gross motor skill" is not really the same.

For example: "Hi, What are WC's simple techniques? I want to do some simple techniques. What would you consider a simple WC technique?"

I like these examples of Gross Motor Skills (GMS) and Fine Motor Skills (FMS). IMO the Wing Chun delivery system is both, simultaneously. Firstly, GMS is another word for SIMPLICITY in regards to WC fighting. To me WC is overkill in allot of ways, especially when facing the average fighter. But from my understanding of WC history and creation, WC was designed to allow one to deal with highly skilled opponents, with less training time required, so here is the need for more FMS.
...

ghostofwingchun

12-13-2005, 08:25 AM

While I agree with some of what you've mentioned, I don't believe you (and others) understand the real definition of gross motor skills.

It's not about simplicity at all. A movement can be quite complicated and difficult and still be a gross motor skill. A spinning jump kick is a gross motor skill. A backward somersault is a gross motor skill. Standing up is a gross motor skill. A handstand is a gross motor skill.

If people want to talk about SIMPLICITY then use the word "simplicity" because "gross motor skill" is not really the same.

For example: "Hi, What are WC's simple techniques? I want to do some simple techniques. What would you consider a simple WC technique?"

Mr. Edmund you are essentially correct . . . and this can be verified by simple google of terms gross motor skill and fine motor skill . . . and my occupation is related to academic research in area of motor learning so I also know you are more accurate with use of terminology. I also agree with you in your earlier comment about gross language skills seem needed . . . lol . . . it seems that many terms are thrown about haphazardly without really considering them or defining them and sometime using them contrary to accepted definition . . . it makes understanding discussion difficult for me. I think some wise person once said something about the beginning of wisdom was in our definitions . . . lol.

Thanks,

Ghost

Matrix

12-13-2005, 08:38 AM

Mr. Edmund you are essentially correct . . . and this can be verified by simple google of terms gross motor skill and fine motor skill . . . Yes, I noticed how some the replies bore a striking resemblance to the pages I found through Google. Interesting coincidence?

it seems that many terms are thrown about haphazardly without really considering them or defining them and sometime using them contrary to accepted definition This is also very true of WC or CMA terminology. One of my favorites is Chi Sao. I think there are many different views of what Chi Sao is, and yet we use the word liberally. I'm not saying one view is better than the others. Just different for the same terminology. P.S. DON"T ASK... ;)

ghostofwingchun

12-13-2005, 09:02 AM

Hey Ghost,
So when you solve problems mathematically, you don't do so through memorization, you do so because you understand the mathematics involved. You're using what you were taught and applying it.

I see ving tsun as when we learn it, we learn techniques, and when we use it, it becomes the concept.

If you take sil lim tau (or any form for that matter), and look at how your hand moves (transitions) from one point to another, the transition is also important, not just the final destination. So when people say that it becomes a blur on what techniques are being used in their application, I think that's may be what they're talking about.
Perhaps a good way to look at it, is that people mainly fight with their transitions of movements and because things are happening so quickly, they're onto the next one until it's finished.

J

Mr. Bussey thank you so much for your reply! I agree one hundred percent that solving math problem involves understanding nature of problem . . . and having proper skills to solve it . . . this is of course entirely mental process. I am thinking the same is true for solving problems of wc or fighting . . . we must understand nature of problem and have skills to solve it . . . beginners don't have good understanding of nature of problem so are given concepts to help them find solution to problems . . . with experience dealing with problems they come to better understand nature of problems and no longer need crutch of concepts . . . this also seems to be process in many other athletics. I think that I understand what you refer to with discussion of transitions . . . that there is more to applying wc than discrete techniques linked together . . . I see the truth in this . . . as I am thinking of it technique is buidling blocks of skill sets . . . and it is skill sets that are really foundation or base of wc or other athletics. I am thinking that concepts help beginners organize discrete techniques into skill sets that will be used to solve problems of fighting . . . and that with experience of actually solving problems there will be cognitive reordering from concepts to direct dealing with nature of problem. I am thinking this is what Bruce Lee meant by learn concept, abide by concept, dissolve concept . . . although he left wc he did not leave martial art . . . and he saw this process working this way from his experience. Of course I know that I can be entirely wrong, partly wrong, and so on . . . this is why all this is tentative . . . and work in progress . . . and why I ask questions . . . I only seek better understanding. I thank you for sharing your view with me as it causes me to reconsider my own views in light of what you say . . . I really find plurality of views useful.

Thanks,

Ghost

Matrix

12-13-2005, 10:39 AM

. . . this is of course entirely mental process. I am thinking the same is true for solving problems of wc or fighting . . . we must understand nature of problem and have skills to solve it . . . beginners don't have good understanding of nature of problem so are given concepts to help them find solution to problems . . . with experience dealing with problems they come to better understand nature of problems and no longer need crutch of concepts . . . I disagree.
Concepts are not a crutch. If you have techniques that are not guided by concepts and principles, you simple have a collection of techniques that are used in an ad hoc fashion.

Attempting to use your mind to solve the problem is too slow - you do this when you train something new, but you have to evolve beyond that. Thinking gets in the way. When you walk, you do not think about how you move your legs one in front of the other in succession, in order to carry yourself forward. If you did, you would probably move in a very robotic manner. So it must be with your WC. At least that's how I see it.

Ernie

12-13-2005, 10:44 AM

and thus the dog chasing it's tail ,,,,,,,,, round and round and round ;)

Matrix

12-13-2005, 10:52 AM

and thus the dog chasing it's tail ,,,,,,,,, round and round and round ;) I'm getting dizzy. ;)

Ernie

12-13-2005, 10:53 AM

I'm getting dizzy. ;)

it's why i gave up on that little game aloooong time ago ;)

Matrix

12-13-2005, 11:01 AM

Ernie,
I guess I'm a lot further down on the learning curve than you are.
At least it feels better when you stop smacking your head against the wall. :D

ghostofwingchun

12-13-2005, 11:31 AM

I disagree.
Concepts are not a crutch. If you have techniques that are not guided by concepts and principles, you simple have a collection of techniques that are used in an ad hoc fashion.

Attempting to use your mind to solve the problem is too slow - you do this when you train something new, but you have to evolve beyond that. Thinking gets in the way. When you walk, you do not think about how you move your legs one in front of the other in succession, in order to carry yourself forward. If you did, you would probably move in a very robotic manner. So it must be with your WC. At least that's how I see it.

Matrix I thank you for your response and I am glad you disagree! . . . it promotes discussion . . . and free exchange of ideas . . . it also helps me to think about these things. You are of course quite correct . . . thinking is slow and often cannot be used in fighting where things happen fast . . . concepts are ideas and thus are thoughts so you have just proved why concepts cannot be used in fighting! . . . they are too slow . . . lol. I am saying that as I presently am thinking about it concepts are ways to promote or organize techniques into physical skill sets in training . . . take simple concept of gates as example . . . gates don't really exist but is an idea and different people can have different idea of gates, number of gates and so forth . . . but beginners can use the concept or idea to help them organize various techniques into skill sets . . . skill sets that will be used to solve problems in fighting . . . of course you are right that when fight happens can't think about gates but rely on physical skills that you have trained to solve problem. This is my present thinking but am thankful for your disagreement as it gives me more to think about . . . as I say I may be wrong . . . and I like being proved wrong because that means I'm learning something . . . lol!

Thanks,

Ghost

ghostofwingchun

12-13-2005, 11:49 AM

and thus the dog chasing it's tail ,,,,,,,,, round and round and round ;)

Ernie you are a wise soul . . . I think you are right . . . sharing ideas can often be round and round . . . because there are often different ways of looking at things and they can all be equally valid . . . like gate example . . . we can discuss 4 gates, 6 gates, 9 gates, or do we need gates and so on round and round like dog chasing tail.. . getting nowhere except dizzy. . . but sometimes it is good to see that there are other reasonable views besides your own . . . I see this on this forum. I have friends who have very different political views than mine and I like discussing politics with them more than I do talking with friends with same views . . . it gives me different perspective than if all I did was talk with like minded friends . . . it helps me better clarify my thinking . . and I have learned many things this way . . . including respect for those with other views . . . but sometimes these go round and round too. Thank you for reality check.

Thanks,

Ghost