A Wild Thought About Tai Chi and Wing Chun

[YongChun]

Wing Chun is Digital
Tai Chi is Analogue

Ray

[Liddel]

From someone whos been in the TV industry for a number of years... and VT for 9 odd years, this makes no sence...

It is indeed 'wild' :D

care to elaborate ?

[MantisWarrior]

i think he means tai chi is old school traditional while wing chun is develop from it with new "gadgets" added to it. i don't just just my interpretation

[YongChun]

What I mean is this. When you do the Tai Chi pushing hands in a continuous way and do a freeze frame photo at various points of the cycle then you can see Bong sau, followed by Tan sau, followed by Lap sau, followed by Pak sau, followed by Lan sau. However Tai Chi also has the freeze frame techniques like rollback, deflect up, pull, push, and press.

If you take an analogue signal, then by sampling, you can chop it up into a digital format. The digital method approaches the characteristics of the analogue signal but is still never totally the same.

Ray

[Matrix]

However Tai Chi also has the freeze frame techniques like rollback, deflect up, pull, push, and press. And Wing Chun doesn't have these. Is that what you're saying? :confused:

[YongChun]

No I am not saying that. In my example I would put Kenpo/Kempo on one end of the scale, Wing Chun in the middle and Tai Chi on the other end. Of course arts are multidimensional and so can't be characteriszed so easily. Another famous saying along the same lines is that Tai Chi like a rubber ball, Hsing I is like a steel ball and Ba Gua is like an iron wire ball.

Ray

[Hendrik]

What I mean is this. When you do the Tai Chi pushing hands in a continuous way and do a freeze frame photo at various points of the cycle then you can see Bong sau, followed by Tan sau, followed by Lap sau, followed by Pak sau, followed by Lan sau. However Tai Chi also has the freeze frame techniques like rollback, deflect up, pull, push, and press.

If you take an analogue signal, then by sampling, you can chop it up into a digital format. The digital method approaches the characteristics of the analogue signal but is still never totally the same.

Ray


I think continous time / discrete time fit the describtion of your idea better then analog /digital.


since analog and digital involve in binary and hex based.....etc

[Matrix]

No I am not saying that. Sorry Ray,
When You said "However, Tai Chi has...." I inferred that you meant Wing Chun does not have similar "techniques". My bad.

[Kaitain(UK)]

The two arts are completely different - the fact that they train pushing hands is the only common ground. Yet if you push hands with someone from the other art, you realise that the only thing in common is contact.

Wing Chun is not a derivation or improvement of taijjquan - I find very little in common between them. The intent is different, the power generation and training is very different - it's like comparing boxing with wrestling or karate with judo.

[YongChun]

I think continous time / discrete time fit the describtion of your idea better then analog /digital.


since analog and digital involve in binary and hex based.....etc

I agree but it sounds less catchy.

Ray

[YongChun]

The two arts are completely different - the fact that they train pushing hands is the only common ground. Yet if you push hands with someone from the other art, you realise that the only thing in common is contact.

Wing Chun is not a derivation or improvement of taijjquan - I find very little in common between them. The intent is different, the power generation and training is very different - it's like comparing boxing with wrestling or karate with judo.

This Chinese friend of mine commented the other day that Chen style and Wing Chun seem to have a lot in common. This was after he watched many videos on Chen style theory and compared that with Kenneth Chung and Tsui Shan Ting's theories. I remember an Escrima teacher who commented that Wing Chun was very different and much more sophisticated than Escrima. Then after he studied Wing Chun for 3 years he made the comment that Escrima and Wing Chun are about the same and he can't really tell them apart. If you train a lot of Tai Chi pushing hands and Wing Chun sticking hands then it's very easy to blend the two arts. In the end you just fight and whatever from whatever art comes out naturally.

Ray

[couch]

This Chinese friend of mine commented the other day that Chen style and Wing Chun seem to have a lot in common. This was after he watched many videos on Chen style theory and compared that with Kenneth Chung and Tsui Shan Ting's theories. I remember an Escrima teacher who commented that Wing Chun was very different and much more sophisticated than Escrima. Then after he studied Wing Chun for 3 years he made the comment that Escrima and Wing Chun are about the same and he can't really tell them apart. If you train a lot of Tai Chi pushing hands and Wing Chun sticking hands then it's very easy to blend the two arts. In the end you just fight and whatever from whatever art comes out naturally.

Ray

A senior student in my Wing Chun class trained in Muay Thai and continually notices similarities. He's always showing us how core movements are so closely related. Too cool.

All the best Ray,
Kenton Sefcik

[Kaitain(UK)]

Sorry, but a Chinese friend doesn't give any further credence to the statements you're making. They aren't the same and they aren't similar. Core movements of all arts are closely related because there are only so many ways of moving the body - the differences are not necessarily in the outward appearance of a movement. It's like saying "we breathe out when we strike too!" - it's nothing to write home about.

If a person trains in one art and then trains the other, then of course they are going to end up being similar. Unconscious competence in physical skills makes that unavoidable - like a BJJ guy who also wrestles, he can't seperate the two, just blend them. Get someone who has only ever wrestled and someone who has only ever trained BJJ and sure you'll see similarities, but they will also be clearly different.

Take someone who has 10 years of Taijiquan and someone else with 10 years of WC and get them to spar and push hands. Ask them how similar they are afterwards.

[hen]

The spiral is comparable when it tends to a atraight line. When big circles become small circles. There are similarities, at minimum, they are both internal art.

[Kaitain(UK)]

In order to make that decleration you'd have to define 'internal' first of all, without using words like "soft". Softness and sensitivity are not exclusive attributes of internal arts. Sometimes I question the clarification of 'internal' anyway - it's senseless.

There are similarities between every martial art - it's nothing to write home about. It's like a karateka saying there's bong sau in his kata because his arm movement is the same. The body only has so many ways of moving.

Now if WC had defined systems of Nei Gong, trained Peng Jin as a specific energy and had a system of Zhan Zhuang - I might be inclined to say that they were similar (like Hsing-I, Bagua and Taiji are similar). But aside from the odd school that has incorporated this sort of stuff (for whatever reason), WC schools do not train like that. Nor should they - it's a different art that requires different attributes. It's like me putting WC footwork into taiji - there's no point because my techniques don't operate off of that footwork.

The "Where's the spiral?" is just my tag-line on my profile - I wasnt commenting on spirals within WC. Needless to say they are different to what is found in taiji (as a result of different training methods). Different, not better or worse.

I'm curious as to where this idea of similarity came from and why some people in WC try to propogate it. Maybe this is how you guys feel when Hung Gar people talk about WC being a subset of Hung Gar :)

[ghostofwingchun]

This Chinese friend of mine commented the other day that Chen style and Wing Chun seem to have a lot in common. This was after he watched many videos on Chen style theory and compared that with Kenneth Chung and Tsui Shan Ting's theories. I remember an Escrima teacher who commented that Wing Chun was very different and much more sophisticated than Escrima. Then after he studied Wing Chun for 3 years he made the comment that Escrima and Wing Chun are about the same and he can't really tell them apart. If you train a lot of Tai Chi pushing hands and Wing Chun sticking hands then it's very easy to blend the two arts. In the end you just fight and whatever from whatever art comes out naturally.

Ray

Mr Ray how does a person's race enter into the picture? More interesting is what were this person's qualifications? . . . the opinion of uneducated person looking at videos is not noteworthy . . . you include race but not qualifications . . . I am at loss trying to understand why someone would say this . . . can you explain? I am sorry but I also don't understand discussions comparing different martial arts . . . I am wondering if you are trying to suggest that wc should in some way be like tai chi? It is not surprising that Kenneth Chung's and Tsui Shan Ting's theories sound like tai ji . . . isn't it a fact that they have both been very influenced by contact with tai ji community? I am thinking that push hands and chi sao are exercises . . . not real application . . . and as exercises can be done in many different ways . . . so person influenced by tai ji might do chi sao similar to push hands . . . this does not provide evidence that two are similar. . . similar to person influenced by tai ji doing wc forms like tai ji does forms . . . then talking about how wc is similar to tai ji. Perhaps I am missing what you are trying to say . . . can you explain?

Thanks,

Ghost

[hen]

There are similarities between every martial art


I am saying exactly the same!!!

Internal Art - to me, focuses from within and not on the movements only. From within comes the movement. I find this (feel this) in both art.

This is my simple understanding.

Hen

[stricker]

A senior student in my Wing Chun class trained in Muay Thai and continually notices similarities. He's always showing us how core movements are so closely related. Too cool.Tell me about it! Pretty much every technique in muay thai is somewhere in wing chun (except the round kick) but of course the body use is different, like the long knees and front kick in muay thai they put the hips into the opponent more leaning the upper body back for balance where wing chun is more upright and conservative of balance. also if you get the chance to do some neck wrestling with a good muay thai guy theyre very soft, slippery but relentless, always messing with your balance and using sensitivity. of course its different to chi sao but still its really cool coming from wing chun.

anyway yeah its worth checking out some muay thai to put a different perspective on your wing chun. also they do thai pads work, which is AWESOME!

ps i used the word "conservative". i think that really sums up for me one of the biggest differences between wing chun and stuff like mma, muay thai, wrestling, and thats wing chun is more conservative. not only of balance but also in terms of the balance between attack and defence. wing chun is always attacking with your defence, defending with your attack, theyre really one and the same, where for example muay thai is a bit more balls out attacking, taking risks, or you shell up a bit more and go on the defensive.

[steeltoe]

The guy I train Tai Chi for does also do Wing Chun, and Escrima. He started with Tai Chi in 1958 while serving in the British forces in Malysia. And with Wing Chun for Greco Wong in London a few years later. According to him 'There is but one sun and it has been shining on man for thousands of years.' It is the principles of motion, power generation, balance, etc that matters. Form or system is just a way to teach and learn. He will show one movement from taichi and then the variation in wing chun and escrima. This is his way of interperting the systems. They are all the same but there are differences to them.

Regards
Jonas
Sweden

[YongChun]

Mr Ray how does a person's race enter into the picture? More interesting is what were this person's qualifications? . can you explain?

Thanks,

Ghost

Hi Ghost,

I didn't mean anything by it. I train with someone who learned Hung style in Hong Kong from age 5 or six until he was a teenager. Then he learned Wing Chun and trained with me since 1980. In between he got a black belt in Taekwondo. Also he has done a lot of Tai Chi push hands, applications, some Hsing I and has studied a lot of Chen style. We train regularly. He is not the best but is the best person I have trained with over the years. I was probably trying to say that my friend was very well schooled in Chinese martial art because he has been doing it for more than 35 years and trains constantly. Still he is not a professional in that he has a regular career.

My opening comment was to start some kind of discussion and was not meant to be some kind of deep insight. Sometimes interesting discussions can come from strange opening discussion lines such as the one I put forth.

On the subject of Tai Chi, someone has posted an interesting rare link to a long video clip of Cheng Man Ching doing the form, push hands and sword work. Robert Smith has an interesting writeup about him in the book Chinese Masters and their Methods.

Ray