How long it take you to learn all of wing chun's forms?

[blackdragon]

Just out of curiousity, how long did it take you to learn all of wing chun's forms such as siu lim tau, chum kiu and biu gee as well as the weapons?

[stonecrusher69]

To learn the movements not long,maybe a few days or weeks you can learn it but you still wont have anything.

[Anarchangel]

So what is it exactly you're learning afterwards?

In karate, after the execution is correct, it's only really Bunkai (application) you need to learn. But in WC, it seems there more physical depth to get into after the form is "learnt".

Could you explain?


Mark.

[YongChun]

You can learn each form in an hour or two but to develop the skills to apply all the forms in an intergrated way against true fighters can take many years (that's why you don't see many compete against high level competition).

In one program the teacher taught all forms, chi sau, freestyle fighting, weapons, dummy etc. in a period of about seven months. Students came twice a week for 4 hours each session. At least a solid hour was devoted to getting the right feeling in the sticking hands. Half the training was chi sau and the other half was distance fighting. Complete freestyle Wing Chun with fingerless gloves, headgear etc. was engaged in after the dummy, pole and knife training. We also did freestyle weapons fighting. After a year some students entered into tournament competition. The same teacher now stretches the material out over a three year period. There were 10 students in the class. The twice a week format also assumes the student trains by himself the other days. A typical lesson was something like:

1. Warm ups
2. Little Idea form
3. Single sticking hands
4. Lap sau exercises with various changes
5. Rolling hands - no fighting mixed in - 30 minutes at least to 60 minutes.
6. Rolling hands plus various techiques or sentences (string of linked techniques)
7. Competitive Chi sau - including takedowns etc.
8. Chum Kiu form
9. Drills related to the form - stepping, kicking
10. Distance fighting or drilling e.g. closing in, defence against various kicks.
11. Weapons forms
12. Freestyle spear fighting or freestyle knife fighting (padded knives).

The theory behind this method was that all parts of the Wing Chun art relate and work together like the parts of a well tuned engine. Each year all topics would be revisited from square 1 with more and more detail picked up each time as the student matured from fighting experience and lots of thinking about the art.

Ray

[Matrix]

So what is it exactly you're learning afterwards?Mark,
I think the answer to your question is in another thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=646384#post646384).
As Ernie said "there is only speed ,timing ,distance , power , change and position , these things are constants in any fight , how you train you ability to navagate these is your bread and butter " These are the skills we must learn to develop once the basic mechanics of the forms are known. SC69 correctly points out that you can learn the gross movements in a short period of time. However, true understanding and application can only come with development of all these attributes in one complete package over an extended period of time - I would say years. I would also add that we train to develop sensitivity (mainly through chi sao) so that we can feel where to apply those attributes for maximum effectiveness.

[reneritchie]

It might help to think of it like sculpture.

You could probably be shown or even figure out on your own how to carve a roughly 'snowman'-like shape out of a rock pretty quickly, maybe in hours or days.

To be able to fine-tune it and hone it down to the level of a Michael-Angelo could take years or even a lifetime.

Likewise, you can memorize the gross choreography of WCK in a few hours or a day depending on your personal aptitude, but optimizing each and every movement, doing the body development (nei gung), honing the path and developing the power, usually takes a lot of hard work and dedication.

[Hendrik]

Just out of curiousity, how long did it take you to learn all of wing chun's forms...


IMHO,


it varies due to lots of different condition and expectation. Even the content of the form itself has a purpose and different form by form. So form by form must not be generalized as one.
IE:
Form has the body cultivation form, the application form....


Furthermore, the Goal/attainment/state of condition (iE: settle, stabalized, and Nature flow) of what to be achived for the training with the form needs to be specified.



So, one needs to define what is the form, what is the state one wants to attain, what is one's condition, before one ask how long it takes.


May be we even want to ask for the basic platform stuffs since we are beginners.

1, how long needed to get the lower part of the tosso relax?
2, How long needed to get the lower back naturely function?
3, How long needed to understand how to get the spine naturely align?
4, How long needed to get the mid/upper back relax without hunch backing?
5, How long needed to get a familiarity between the Dan Tien lower abdorment breathing and the normal chest breathing ?
6, how long to get the thought to quiet down so the Yee can be used to implement IE: Nim lek?
7, how long to have a body/breathing/intention coordination in good precision?

[sobela]

Wing Chun forms don't take long to learn. To learn them correctly though could take a few years each. The forms teach correct structure and power. Siu Lim Tao teaches correct placement and structure of the basic techniques in Wing Chun, this is why it is the foundation of Wing Chun and the most important form. Without a foundation how can one build to great heights? The rest of the forms build upon each other. Without knowing Siu Lim Tao your Chum Kiu won't be very good. If your Chum Kiu isn't very good then your Bui Gee isn't very good. Your weapon forms won't be good either. Pretty much your Wing Chun will be useless, because you don't have correct power and structure. Take time to understand the forms and learn the principles of Wing Chun.

[Jam_master]

Just out of curiousity, how long did it take you to learn all of wing chun's forms such as siu lim tau, chum kiu and biu gee as well as the weapons?

In less than a year, but it depends also on the student how fast he learns or wants to learn it. And sometimes it also depend on the course structure of the school and it's teach.

Originally Posted by Anarchangel
So what is it exactly you're learning afterwards?

Your learning then how to intergrate your techniques so it can become more freeflowing and natural, and perfect. This can take years to achieve, and requires indepth knowledge that can only be attained through proper and extensive trainning and/or with the help of a qualified intructor or highly experience long time practitioner.

Your pobably already familiar with one problem most practitioners face, especially in the beginning, and that is, not knowing what to do next, and losing your sense of where you are while in the middle of a heavy exchange. Not knowing how to recover or how to avoid this in the first place. You find yourself also fumbling and getting stuck and none of your techniques are coming out after the first counter, and you draw back a lot! (Sound Familiar???)Things like this you are endevoring to not do, and to learn how, will take patience, carefull self-analysis, breaking down of techniques from a theoretical point of view, and a lot of applied science that your not going to get right away or commit to muscle memory anytime soon either. May take years to finally get it, but a good teacher will help you achieve it in perhaps a shorter amount of time through careful coaching and spotting of techniques, or lack there of so you can improve much sooner hopefully!

[Liddel]

I notice people are giving detailed answers and opinions but heres my literal answer.

Siu Nim Tao was taught on the first lesson. the next few lessons were correcting actions.

Then when this is done, you learn to step. Then Chi Dan Sao is taught.
others things are taught ruffly around here also, like Kwan Sao Pak Sao etc to be used in chi sao. You already know them from the form this is now application.

Around this time i was taught the first 20 actions of the dummy. All those actions you know from the first form.

Poon Sao is taught around here....

I then learnt Chum Kiu which was "about" a year after the first form (it was a while ago now)

Here i was taught the next 20 dummy moves

Then after about another one and a half (ish) years i was taught the first section of Bui Jee.

After completing the third section, i was just concentrating on that then i was taught the Arrow Horse for the pole.

When Sifu was satisfied with my horse i got my hands on the pole and learnt Dan Kwan,
Now we gety to today
When i can make the tip of the pole move the right amount when i Dan Kwan - it will mean my power is enough and Sifu will show me the first section of the pole form.

Sifu is old school he is retired and we have no formal grading system, No belts, no sashes...No payments for gradings - when Sifu is satisfied he says yes good and teaches you the next step. Hard work gives results not money :D

Its difficult to say what the time between the forms were with acuracy its long ago now and each student is different. Sifu teaches the new students faster now days but they spend more time within each section to fine tune, so it evens out.
Step by step and in the right order is Key IMHO.

I hope this is getting closer to what info you were looking for.

Kung Fu = Hard Work ! :cool:

[blackdragon]

I should be more clear. I just started with wing chun and was wondering how long it would take for someone with good foundation to learn all of the wing chun forms. I know it depends on the individual and all.

[Hendrik]

I should be more clear. I just started with wing chun and was wondering how long it would take for someone with good foundation to learn all of the wing chun forms. I know it depends on the individual and all.

IMHO,

using the Yik Kam SLT as an example;

(In case you missed my post in other forum.)

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=132

Good foundation is relative.
One can memorized and tracing the form even within weeks.

However, true mastering of
form learning is a life time journey with lots of continous fine tuning.....

Thus, I have heard,
As soon as one still needs to use the intention to do the form, one is not yet truely master the form.

[Matrix]

I should be more clear. I just started with wing chun and was wondering how long it would take for someone with good foundation to learn all of the wing chun forms. What do you mean by "good foundation"? In my case I found that previous experience in other marital arts can at times actually be detremental to Wing Chun training. I had so much to 'unlearn' that it seemed to make things more difficult.

[wei wu wei]

Forms are merely one dimension of the Wing Chun system.

You never "learn" the Wing Chun forms with any sense of completeness.

Instead, you spend a lifetime trying to grasp a deeper understanding of the forms.

If however, by 'learning the forms', you are referring to how long it will take you to mimic the movements in a cohesive pattern in a way which retains some aesthetic semblance to Wing Chun Gung Fu, then not too long at all.

[David Jamieson]

learning and knowing being seperate things....

The hand forms of wing chun can be learned relatively quickly.
But to know them front to back, back to front, sideways and upside down can take a little longer.

Time to learn also depends on the learner and their own eagerness and ability to learn and adjust as they go through the process.

This is prety much the same in any given field of study.
The learning is not the knowing, it is the foundational tools to being able to know once you're done with teh learning part. After the classes is when the real learning takes place. In your practice.

[AmanuJRY]

Do you want to know how long it took to learn them...or how long it took before someone would teach them to me.:)

[Lindley]

Blackdragon,

Good luck on your start of Kung Fu training! Depending on which system you are studying (in terms of testing, sashes, or just forms), you should be fairly accomplished in 5 years or so. The forms change through a maturation process. We go from robotic imitation to understanding. The forms possess a lot of "possibilities" that we can explore upon the right knowledge and experience. You should film yourself doing the Siu Nim Tao now and then a year later. It will be different, even if subtly. Also, discuss with your sifu should you have any concerns

Good luck with your kung fu!

[anerlich]

In my academy:

SLT is taught at level 2 (after 2-3 months)
CK after level 4 (12-18 months)
BJ after level 6 (maybe three years)

dummy and weapons forms are not taught in regular classes, but in seminar format, maybe 3 times a year, open to all grades.

Various forms and dummy sets or parts thereof, are included in grading tests. For instructor level, level 10 gold sash, you are tested on all forms and the 108 dummy movements.

You are tested on sword and pole forms at post-instructor-level gradings, as well as material with short stick and single blade.

There are a number of dummy sets which are not taught to students until after gold sash level.

Our forms underwent a complete deconstruction and renovation about five years ago, so arguably those that were there relearnt them entirely. And the forms are presented to senior students as patterns for exploration and extemporisation rather than stone tablets, so arguably the learning goes on as long as one's WC career.

[sihing]

In my academy:

SLT is taught at level 2 (after 2-3 months)
CK after level 4 (12-18 months)
BJ after level 6 (maybe three years)

dummy and weapons forms are not taught in regular classes, but in seminar format, maybe 3 times a year, open to all grades.

Various forms and dummy sets or parts thereof, are included in grading tests. For instructor level, level 10 gold sash, you are tested on all forms and the 108 dummy movements.

You are tested on sword and pole forms at post-instructor-level gradings, as well as material with short stick and single blade.

There are a number of dummy sets which are not taught to students until after gold sash level.

Our forms underwent a complete deconstruction and renovation about five years ago, so arguably those that were there relearnt them entirely. And the forms are presented to senior students as patterns for exploration and extemporisation rather than stone tablets, so arguably the learning goes on as long as one's WC career.

Just curious Andrew, are those dummy sets after instructor level, are they the one's Victor was talking about that Cheung changed after that demo he did in 82' for all of his seniors to see? Appartently the set was too hard for most to pick up so he changed it. What are the differences between these sets and the public version?

Thanks.

James

[BRIAN]

Learning the memorization portion of any of the forms is the easiest part. But, being able to apply all of the concepts and theories is quite another task. That can take years. All too often I hear people say that they learned their SLT in two months and I say that's BS. Because I then watch them and I can almost immediatly pick out that these students are not keeping a fist distance roughly from their body on the single arm techniques. There shoulders are not squared, or their hands don't move in sequence with one another on the double hand portions.

What many begginers don't understand is you need to look deeper into the system. As the saying goes, concentrate on the meat and not the potatoes. Ask most of the senoir people on this board and I can guarantee you that they will tell you when they first started they had a different outlook on the same movements that they are doing today as compared to when they started. The same will happen to you should you stick with it long enough. Just as you mature so does your perspective on the system it's philosphy and the application of the system in real combat.

The real question you should be asking is how do I make my form a clean as possible and concentrate on quality not quantity.

Good luck in your training

[anerlich]

Just curious Andrew, are those dummy sets after instructor level, are they the one's Victor was talking about that Cheung changed after that demo he did in 82' for all of his seniors to see? Appartently the set was too hard for most to pick up so he changed it. What are the differences between these sets and the public version?

I'm not familiar with the reference you are discussing.

The sets I am talking about are not alterations to the "public" sets, whatever that means, but additional sets.

Most I think would have seen the oft-taught "additional" set which is largely tseun sao based.

Of the others, I do not have the authority to discuss details. Some are just mixing of different elements from other sets, of those that are not, they involve (by set)

kicking (in addition to the 10th/11th sets)
chi gerk
garn/tsuen

if this rings a bell, you know what I'm talking about. If not, I'm not at liberty to discuss further at my Sifu's request, even with my sidais below level 10.