CLF's bread & butter techniques

[Gowgee]

Hi,

I'm an interested observer of CLF, and since the WC guys are talking about bread and butter techniques in their forum at the moment, was wondering what you CLF folks would consider the bread and butter techniques of your style in sparring/confrontations? I'd like to know more about your art and what the tactics you use at a high percentage are. Comments?

[Infrazael]

First off, you might wanna take a look at this site here. VERY good explanation of what CLF is:

http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/choylayfut_concepts.htm

Ok, they explain Sau Choy, Kup Choy etc. . . . . now let's get to the pugilistic science of CLF, shall we?

I'd say our "bread & butter" technique are the most basic of punches. . . . you have your straight punches (remember CMA doensn't really differentiate between a 'jab' and a 'cross' as boxing does), your arcing punches, your uppercuts, your elbows, your knees, your locks, your throws and sweeps.

A HUGE part of CLF is the "panther fist," which is a fist formation created by making a flat fist by curling only your foreknuckes into THIS shape:

http://www.stavangerkarateklubb.no/GifJpg/Teknikker/hiraken.jpg

http://www.irimi.it/image10/qt_hiraken.gif

I use that punch to throw my jabs (of course not when I'm wearing gloves though). . . . . very powerful. You don't need much energy to hurt someone with that baby.

When you think CLF, think kinda in western boxing terms except with wide, sweeping techniques. . . . . well, sorta. . . . it looks alot different in fighting. . . . . .

[JAZA]

I think that if you use that shape full speed you can break some of your hands bones.
You need to connect your thumb to make a structure.

[Gowgee]

Infrazael

Nice, and thanks for those links! I'd like to take this a step further now. I can see with most of the linear strikes how the teacher in those photos is moving in on his opponent there, but what kind of footwork is used typically in setting up gwa, sau, pow, kup or biu type circular strikes?

JAZA

Is hand conditioning such as pushups on body weapons like that leopard punch part of standard CLF workouts?

[hskwarrior]

those panther fists were not shaped by clf people. its funny how all clf people will notice the same thing.

i'm talking about the way the panther in these photo's should have the thumb connected,pressed into the side of the hand while the thumb tip pushes into the tip of the forefinger.

The panther fist is truly one of those techniques that have to take time to condition. If you think about the power behind your punches, and the destruction it can cause your hand if your panther isn't up to par. If you seem to have any doubt, try throwing a full blast panther at a punching bag and make sure the bag moves.

Now about the footwork..........I was just teaching this to my students the other day. We were going thru some "moving" or Mobile drills and and one of my students thought he would trip me up by changing directions constantly. one minute he was in front and i strike, then he shoots behind me to throw me off track, but because of CLF all it took was the turn of the waist and i took care of him behind me without any extra movements.

The footwork isn't all tha tricky, i feel more lies on the upper body techniques, but having full body awareness is great. but our footwork encompasses all angles of attack or defense. Since i studied escrima i can effectively fight either south paw or orthodox style stances, but when it comes to launching SOW CHOYS and such,
i use what we call 7 star stances. Bsically we follow the pattern of the 7 star flag, which is basically 45 degree angles.

What i mean is from your fighting stance you step out into a 45 degree angle lets say with your left foot and strike with a right sided sow choy. i've seen some choy lee fut go linear with this, but i prefer the angles more.


hsk

[Infrazael]

those panther fists were not shaped by clf people. its funny how all clf people will notice the same thing.

i'm talking about the way the panther in these photo's should have the thumb connected,pressed into the side of the hand while the thumb tip pushes into the tip of the forefinger.

The panther fist is truly one of those techniques that have to take time to condition. If you think about the power behind your punches, and the destruction it can cause your hand if your panther isn't up to par. If you seem to have any doubt, try throwing a full blast panther at a punching bag and make sure the bag moves.



hsk

That's strange. I couldn't actually find any CLF pantherfists, so I found some Karate pages instead.

But the way I hold it, I've never connected my thumb to the tip of my index finger if that's what you mean.

My thumb has always been on the side, and it's never failed me in that position before. My hand is almost completely flat when I hold a panther.

I've talked to a few Hung Gar players and they hold theirs differently, more of a in-between between a flat panther and a closed fist. Is that what you're talking about? Care to share any pictures?

[Eddie]

yep, those pics are pretty close to the way we hold panther fist in the LKH branch. and no, you wont break your hand. a flat fist is more solid than when you curve your knuckles (when you use your thumb as support). if you hold your first in the right way, your bones will allighn properly, and your fist should be solid. again, there has been a post about this before.

[Fu-Pow]

yep, those pics are pretty close to the way we hold panther fist in the LKH branch. and no, you wont break your hand. a flat fist is more solid than when you curve your knuckles (when you use your thumb as support). if you hold your first in the right way, your bones will allighn properly, and your fist should be solid. again, there has been a post about this before.

Agree. If you half-close your fist then the fist will collapse. Better to focus on lining up the bones of the fingers and hand.

Incidentally, the leopard fist is a soft target implement. Its too unforgiving to be used for hard targets. Hence, you shouldn't have to support your leopard fist with the thumb because you're not hitting hard targets in the first place.

Kung fu lesson # 1. Soft hits hard, hard hits soft. Meaning, hard anatomical weapons hit soft targets. Soft anatomical weapons hit hard targets. That's the only way that you don't end up hurting yourself in the process of hurting someone else.

Your wrists need to be very strong though. Mak Sifu can do push ups on his leopard fists.

[hskwarrior]

Infrazel,

basically what im saying about the way i shape the panther fist is this. The fist is almost competely flat, except for a very slight bend in it. Just a hair. you take the thumb and squeeze it down to the hand, and take the thumb tip and push it into the index fingertip. at the same time you focus on the last knuckle to the tip of the pinky squeezing in both direction (inward) and your panther fist will become a little more solid.

I am not sure how i can post a photo or if i should just tell people to check out my website when after upload the photo's but i will show in detail what i mean.

and if you want i just got video mail, so i can send an email with what i mean on video.

but try it out and see if you think its works. it does for me, very nicely.


hsk

[yutyeesam]

yeah my fist is completely flat when i hold my thumb to the side, in fact, since i'm so used to holding my fu jows with my fingers really bent back (same thing with knife hands position), that if i hold my leopard fist without thumb support, the fingers bend back just a tad.

but i know i have long thumbs, so i can do it. i see other folks who don't and they do that half curve fist thing. for them it's a good idea to just nix the thumb support.

panther fist isn't only for linear strikes to soft areas. you can also sow choy (downward) with a panther fist to cut.

-123

[hskwarrior]

yut yee sam,

are you talking about he inverted one, thumb side down. yeah, my sifu even uses the panther fist while doing the biu jong.

If the panther fist is too straight it will do what i call "Buckle". either downwards or upwards. but with a slight bend very slight you take care of that problem. and pressing with the thumbtips really helps in strengthening that fist. with the fingers flush with the back of the hand you take the risk of jamming your joints.

hsk

[Infrazael]

Infrazel,

basically what im saying about the way i shape the panther fist is this. The fist is almost competely flat, except for a very slight bend in it. Just a hair. you take the thumb and squeeze it down to the hand, and take the thumb tip and push it into the index fingertip. at the same time you focus on the last knuckle to the tip of the pinky squeezing in both direction (inward) and your panther fist will become a little more solid.

I am not sure how i can post a photo or if i should just tell people to check out my website when after upload the photo's but i will show in detail what i mean.

and if you want i just got video mail, so i can send an email with what i mean on video.

but try it out and see if you think its works. it does for me, very nicely.


hsk

Haha Frank. . . . don't worry I know EXACTLY what you're talking about now that I've thought it through.

It actually feels very decent, I'm gonna be trying it out real soon, so I'll post the differences I feel, and end up using whichever feels stronger to me.

Peace

[Eddie]

even the slightest curve can damage the bone. if you keep it flat and level with no curve, the bones will aline, and your fist will be more solid. thats just my opinion tho

[Gowgee]

Hope you guys won't mind me throwing in a few more questions here..

In the link Infrazael posted at the top of the page, there are a few limited body weapons shown: standard fist, panther fist and the forearm. I'm assuming the elbows and knees come in at closer range, but what other staple body weapons are used?

My other question is about CLF bridges. Mr. Ng shows some nice clear traps and strikes in his article, but I'm also interested in how CLF might use their bridges as a - for want of a better word - throw. From those pics, the bridge can get in pretty close to the opponent's trunk, and I'm assuming that by shifting your opponent's limb out of the way you could break their balance in any number of ways using those bridges. So... is this a fairly common tactic too?

[Eddie]

you mentioned all the weapons already?!, fingers, fists the round joint at the wrists (when you pull your hand in - for crane), forarm, elbow, shoulder (for push), hips (even your bum) mostly to uproot someone, knee, shins, instep, feet, ball of foot, heel... pretty much everything on your body. if you are fat, you can probably also roll on someone too .... we call that fatjitsu :rolleyes:

[JAZA]

I agree with my friend Frank.
In my opinion if you close the doors of your hand to make a flat leopard fist you are making a solid beam like structure ready to support compression strains, but this structure is prone to fail on the doors( knuckles, wrists) if you apply little momentum like when you hit with an angle or the target moves when you connect it.
In the other side if you make a romboidal structure (like in the picture) you can hit hard "soft" targets and in the case of apply momentum or even hit a "hard target" you can collapse your leopard to a clenched fist quickly. It like a sismical structure, solid but mobile.

http://www.choyleefut.de/graphics/clf_mc41/5_PauChoy2.jpg
http://www.choyleefut.de/pages/masterclass4.html

In my opinion, it's not a question of mine is correct, yours is wrongs, just different perspective of the same style.

[hskwarrior]

see,

on a heavy bag tested out which would be the most effective way to throw a panther fist without injuring myself. So in the past i've tried a straight/flat handed panther fist and on more than one occasion after putting a little power behind the punch i found that one of two things were happening.

1) with a flat panther (no bends at all) my would collapse downwards and actually begin to hurt.

2) again with the flat panther, after striking a heavy bag i noticed my fingers would buckle upwards and felt as if they would break.

***Now, remember- i'm trying to strike with the same power as i would with a solid flat fist.

But after some fine tuning, i tried different degress of bends before i discovered that all it took was a very slight bend downwards (just a hair) and the panther fist became more powerful, and my fingers weren't bending in either direction at all. that is why im confident with the way i do the panther fist now.

Seriously, if your panther fist is too straight you are more likely injur yourself, and possibly never throw another one again.

peace.

[hskwarrior]

Jaza-your're the man!

That's exactly what im talking about. That first link is 99% the way i do it and found it to be a little more solid than your average panther.

the only thing i find fault in the way chan yong fa is holding that fist is his ring finger and pinky are sticking out just a little too much. amongst my classmates that is what we call the "UGLY" fist. His panther looks a little different than most.
but the idea is there.


try this. Make your panther fist. now pull the middle and ring finger away from the palm where only the index and pinky remain. Feel the pressure of those two fingers pressing into your palm. then add the other two fingers. Pressing inwards with the thumbtip and the pinky tip (all Inwards).

Can anyone tell me, if i take some photo's and save it on my computer, can i link the photo's from there or should it be on a website?

hsk

[Infrazael]

Thanks for the input everyone. I guess we still have alot to learn.

[hskwarrior]

okay, i tried to take some pictures and post it here but i don't know how to link just the photo instead of the whole website. but if you check out my site and go into "general applications" photo album you will see the photo's of the way i shape my panther fists.


http://www.hsclf.zoomshare.com

[Mano Mano]

My preference is for the panther fist with the thumb against index finger because of its stronger structure, however my Sifu uses the other panther fist.
From personal experience as I’ve been on the receiving end of both types from some of my si-hing’s and also some of my si-di (that Shaka Brown can be dam unpredictably fast), I found the panther fist that my Sifu uses does hurt more than the other and seems to be a lot more of a piercing strike.

[Eddie]

http://www.hsclf.zoomshare.com

nice view from your house. I love that mountain in the back. where do you live? do you live just outside the city?

[Shaolindynasty]

Gowgee- yes it is a fairly common tactic for us to "uproot" with those techniques. Especially the second one labeled "na".

[hskwarrior]

thanks eddie.

i live right outside of san francisco. to the right of that picture is the San Francisco airport. But yeah its a nice view, lots of planes flying over though.

can't lie, beats having to listen to gunshots all night long while wondering if one of them are going to him me.

But it gets so foggy here sometimes you can't even see the street below. but thats the way i like it. i love cold weather.

hsk

[Eddie]

cool. looks nice.
you must come and visit me sometime. :cool:

your pantters look very solid, ill give it a try.
do you ever practice panthers on boxing style focus mitts/ targets? they usually are pretty hard, and helps to condition finger knuckles

[hskwarrior]

eddie,

one of the ways i train my panther when not practicing is to lets say cup my left hand while striking it with my right panther (hard enough to buckle fingers).

Then when i worked in a warehouse i used to practice piercing cardboard boxes on the shelves as i walked by. there's nothing like the snap of a cardboard as you're walking by punching holes in them. lol

with my personal students yeah we use the little focus mits, sand, or even punching bags. I encourage my students to develop their panthers slowly, not too quick. Don't want any mishaps happening. For example, i was drinking one day at a picnic, and i saw a big chunk of ice and thought to myself "can you break that piece of ice with your panther?" so i hit it! Didn't break it one bit.

But i did manage to have a big chunk of meat torn from my knuckle. Lesson learned.! LoL

At my sifu's eddie, we have a big 8 foot banana bag about 100 pounds and i would strike that with my panther until i got it to move.

I do practice my panthers regularly, it is one of my favorite techniques next to tiger claws and sow choys. Love dem sow choys! Man i would hit that 100 pound banana bag with all i got doing sow choys until that bag begn to bend in half.


peace eddie.

hsk

[hskwarrior]

"Ice Don't Hit Back!!!"


LOL

[Eddie]

ja, i read before that you said you hit your panther fist into your hand, and i think its a pretty good exercise too.

heavy bag drills with panthers are also cool.

a month or so back, at the club i was working, Smirnof (sp?) had a promo and at the door, they had this big block of ice with a smirnof bottle inside and some slogans written in snow - you know, usual promo things. anyways, some of the guys at the door started talking about how they want to break the block of ice and started playing around with each other. Now this bloc of ice was about 15 cm thick, 70cm x 50cm big. i didnt think i would ever be able to break that, so i told the skinniest guy to give it a try. did all the usuall mumbo jumbo stuff where I tell him to hit throw the block of ice (my mr miagi impersonations) etc, and then stood back so he can hit the block of ice. thought he will hurt himself and then we can divert our attention elsewhere :D . Now this dude is a skinny Goth (I work at a Gothic/Electro Alternitive club), and really not into exercising or anything. He hit the ice block once, and broke the block of ice, it was so funny. made me realise its actually not so difficult to break the ice :rolleyes: so to speak. anywways, thought it was a funny story to tell.

[Fu-Pow]

okay, i tried to take some pictures and post it here but i don't know how to link just the photo instead of the whole website. but if you check out my site and go into "general applications" photo album you will see the photo's of the way i shape my panther fists.


http://www.hsclf.zoomshare.com

Frank, judging from your pictures, it looks like we are pretty much saying the same thing. In the picture where you touch the thumb to your first finger .....the fingers are lined up with the top of the hand. When you don't touch, the fingers aren't lined up and when you hit they will fold back.

However, you can line up without touching the thumb. I think its the alignment of the fingers, bones in the hand and wrist that are important. If putting your thumb there helps you do that then more power to ya.

Nice discussion. Thanks for the pics.