San Da take 2 [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Ray Pina

12-10-2005, 09:35 PM

Simply: I got my a$$ed kicked today.

It wasn't the ring. It wasn't the gloves. It wasn't the head gear. The guy I fought was very good. The best fighter I have crossed in a long time. He moved very well and was able to do something no one has done to me since I was a little kid, strike my face at will. Busted me up pretty good.

I will say though, that this guy must have soked every once of water out of his body. Because when he weighed in, my friend and I though it would have been at a very reduced 197 ... thinking he walks the earth at 210. How he made 185 is beyond me. But he did. I was there.

Somehow God, or whoever set these matches, was against me and that's who I drew. He was the only fighter in that place I found intimidating and somehow that was my first match. The first match of my weight division. I'm going to be surprised tomorrow to find out that Stephan Cloud did not win it all at 187.... a very good fighter.

Ralphie

12-11-2005, 02:04 AM

that doesn't surprise me a bit. This reminds me of something ST00 said, "train smarter". Preparing properly for a fight, and maximizing the time you trained for it by using sound methods seems like not such a bad idea to me.

Wong Fei Hong

12-11-2005, 07:35 AM

This doesnt suprise me one bit either, for one simple reason remember when i posted that exactly the same things happened to me as happened to ray , fiancees moving out car crashes bike crashes illness bankruptcy yadda yadda ,wanting to go fight alone too.
Well thats how my story ended :D i didnt get bust up but i was put in the ring with a guy a little over 20 pounds heavier and im a middleweight he was 3 weight cat higher and had about 8 fights more than me hehehe . I lost too !

Anyhow the moral of the story is simply that if everything is going wrong in your life, it doesnt mean that somethign will out of the blue go right :D
Congrats for posting and fighting.

wiz cool c

12-11-2005, 10:09 AM

Sounds like your getting some good experence under your belt. Whats that now two San Da and two sparring tournaments. Much more than 95 percent of the kung fu world is doing. I just did a Judo tournament two weeks ago. I am only a white belt in Judo. I probably have done maybe 10 mounths total of judo training but went to compete anyway. I had two matches and lost both but it was fun. A juy with 12 years of wrestling pined me and won the match. The other went the distence and I lost on points. But Ill tell you knowone could throw me. Besides two sacrifice throws that I went along with to avoid any injurys my root was strong.

rogue

12-11-2005, 10:11 AM

Ray,

We want to hear the blow by blow. How did your training method work out for you? No matter what kind of crap we all tossed at you I think most here want to know. :)

Ray Pina

12-11-2005, 10:37 PM

Well, I watched the video today with my friends. I got my assed kicked. That didn't change. But if I had to pull some positived out, I'd say:

1) The first heavy shot to land broke my nose. Got the x-ray today. That happened very early in the fight. With that, the blood, I still had fight in me. I took a kick across my nose on the ground at the last Throwdown last Sun and still submitted the guy, so it's nice to see I still have the fight there after taking a shot. I wasn't sure about that because it never happened before.

2) The only thing that I did do that was worth bragging about, is at one point I capture one of his kicks, take him down, and had striking position. I actually striked at out habit and got a warning. Just everything took over.

Then he struck me and put me down, though one was more a slip from what I saw than a power shot. Down 3 times, fight over. I still had more fight in me, and my breath was good, but I was busted, and that guy just had a lot more killing in him left then I did. It was good it ended when it did.

I'll send the video to anyone who wants to host it. Going to AC tomorrow and will be back Wed. If soemone PMs me an adress, I can overnight them a disk on Wed.

Lot's to see with my master tomorrow and sure I'm going to get some hell but that's post game after a loss and expected. I'm going to heal a bit, go to Vegas in late Jan. and see about the cage this summer. I was down three times, but all but the first in a position to keep fighting. That first show I ran straight into after bouncing off the ropes. Guy had great, short, crip power. Good punching. He moved like a boxer. To lose to a guy like that makes it a little easier. Big... huge ... move well with power.... no surprise I get matched up with him. Wish I could say it was a good fight. Wasn't. But I was humbled somewhat, and back to training Tues. night.

Finny

12-12-2005, 07:08 AM

Well done Ray.

I don't think I've ever spoken to you online, and sometimes I find the tone of some of your posts over the top, but I give you heaps of respect for actually getting out there and doing it. And being honest enough to report back about a loss.

Again, beaucoup kudos.

SevenStar

12-12-2005, 08:53 AM

I can see the excuses, but right now, that's beyond the point. Good job for competing. Now, what did you learn from this experience in terms of:

1. the quality of these guys vs the ones at the throwdowns

2. The methodology that should be used in training for the ring

3. Him striking your face at will. After watching the tape and reflecting, what was he doing that you weren't catching on to? Or was he just that fast in regards to speed and timing?

4. How effective was your striking, grappling, or the "special something" that your master has taught you? What can you do to hone it so that next time, you break HIS nose with that first strike?

These questions and others can help aid you in training for your next fight, be it in the cage or a ring.

Fallout

12-12-2005, 10:28 AM

lol. This happens so much. People think they can actually use traditional kung fu in competition. Your going to have to learn boxing, muay thai, TKD, and wrestling if you want to compete in san shou.

Mortal1

12-12-2005, 10:32 AM

I was a spectator at the tournament.

First I'd like to mention Ray was also in the forms part of the comp. What I thought was great about it was all the other guys were stretching in these ugly, nerdy, shiny, kungfu uniforms. Ray had on cargo pants and a hoody. He comes out and does a form that lasts about 20 seconds and basically was like shadow boxing with forward moving foot work. As he is doing it he charges forward and goes right at the judge. These guys have never seen this form before so they didn't know where he was going with it. The judge actually looked scared for a minute as he frantically shuffled to move his seat out of the way. All in all he looked better then the other guys. It was very fast and very martial.

I give him mad credit for stepping in with any of the guys that fought that day. His guy was one of the best and the biggest. I can't imagine how that guy weighed under 200 pounds. He was an animal. I think he did end up winning his division too.

At one point they clinched and fell on the floor where Ray mounted him and punched him when he was down. Or at least it looked that way. People in the crowd couldn't believe it. I thought it was funny.

I'm not sure what happened at the end but Ray ended sitting in the corner with a bloody nose after being knocked down. I don't know if the round ended or he just gave up.

Ray I would have came over to say hi but I never met you and I was with a girl. Also I didn't want you to think I was a stalker. :p

bodhitree

12-12-2005, 10:40 AM

Good job for competing. I'm sure you'll have learned something, although you may not see it now.

lkfmdc

12-12-2005, 12:25 PM

Ray, I am going to be blunt. It is cheap and rude to try and infer that you were set up... your comment about "or whoever set these matches" is what I am talking about.

Let's state the facts and we'll see what the forum thinks

Ray Pina and Stephane Cloud weighted exactly the same weight at weigh in. They were weighed in on the same scale and literally minutes apart from eachother.

Ray listed his record as 0-1. Stephan's record is 0-0. The third competitor in that weight class, David Rapp, was also 0-0.

Stephan actually has a wrestling background, but currently trains at James Simrell's MMA gym in PA. I can double check if you wants, but I believe he has trained in striking with James for abound 7 to 8 months. For those who don't know James, he was a golden gloves boxer and is a black belt in both Sambo and BJJ.

Ray vs Stephan lasted one round, I have to check the exact time. I also don't remember if the ref stopped it or Ray waived it off. I'll be happy to check as I have ALL the paper work.

Stephan advanced to fight David Rapp, a student of Gus Kapros' Green Cloud Choy Lay Fut school (yes, a training brother of mine). David had no fights prior to this and was in the beginner kung fu forms divisions. David went about 5 minutes with Stephan. IE he lasted the entire first 3 minute round and stopped in the middle of the second due to a combination of being gassed out and a bloody nose.

No one set you up. There was no "ringer" and there was no conspiracy. For you to imply such on here is bizarre. you seem to have wild swings in attitude, really cool dude one minute, and then astounding in your comments the next.

I'm going to suggest that in the future, you fight MMA. This will give you no excuses about not being able to elbow and hit on the ground. In my completely professional opinion, Donnie Carolei was generous in not DQ'ing you for the punches on the ground. They were not a single slip, they were many.

Face2Fist

12-12-2005, 12:52 PM

so does that mean ray cant do san shou anymore?

fa_jing

12-12-2005, 01:01 PM

I'm curious as to how the guy was able to hit you in the face at will. He doesn't appear to have much experience in striking but is obviously athletic with the wrestling background. Was it his attributes being very superior? I would think that would be a problem, it sure was when I would try to stop my sifu's punch. I'm reminded of your comment on pak sao "not being enough to stop a grown man's punch." Do you think that some of your techniques fell short in the same manner you were alluding to? Also, do you use head movement defensively when you fight?

Mortal1

12-12-2005, 01:08 PM

Pak sau is used to deflect not stop the punch. As a matter of fact all wingchun blocks are deflections.

MasterKiller

12-12-2005, 01:27 PM

With music strong I come,
with my cornets and my drums,
I play not marches for accepted victors only,
I play marches for conquer'd and slain persons.
Have you heard that it was good to gain the day?
I also say it is good to fall,
battles are lost in the same spirit in which they are won.
I beat and pound for the dead,
I blow through my embouchures my loudest and gayest for them.
Vivas to those who have fail'd!
And to those whose war-vessels sank in the sea!
And to those themselves who sank in the sea!
And to all generals that lost engagements,
and all overcome heroes!
And the numberless unknown heroes equal to the greatest heroes known!

--Walt Whitman

rogue

12-12-2005, 02:18 PM

Ray, I am going to be blunt. It is cheap and rude to try and infer that you were set up... your comment about "or whoever set these matches" is what I am talking about.

Let's state the facts and we'll see what the forum thinks.

I didn't read Ray's post as meaning he was set up, but that it was the bad luck of the drawer for him.

I also didn't read him as making excuses other than the other guy was just plain better than he was and he got his ass kicked.

One forum member votes no harm no foul.

Rockwood

12-12-2005, 02:38 PM

No doubt, I think Ray is right on to give props to his opponent. The guy was better than him on that day and won that fight, with class. These are the types of events that teach you more about yourself than you could learn in any other way.

Ray, congrats on stepping up. Keep analyzing, exploring and experimenting. It will really pay off in the long run.

-Jess O

Wong Fei Hong

12-12-2005, 03:53 PM

mortal 1 - Amen to that comment all wing chun blocks are deflections !

Also i didnt think ray was implying anythign about being setup, if anyone can make it a vid clip i would be really happy to see this pls, Im on 56k so its a bit difficult to d/l a massive file.

SevenStar

12-12-2005, 04:31 PM

I also didn't read him as making excuses other than the other guy was just plain better than he was and he got his ass kicked.

"Somehow God, or whoever set these matches, was against me and that's who I drew. He was the only fighter in that place I found intimidating and somehow that was my first match."

"I still had more fight in me, and my breath was good, but I was busted, and that guy just had a lot more killing in him left then I did."

"To lose to a guy like that makes it a little easier. Big... huge ... move well with power.... no surprise I get matched up with him. "

These are what I took to be excuses / justifications.

Finny

12-12-2005, 06:11 PM

"Somehow God, or whoever set these matches, was against me and that's who I drew. He was the only fighter in that place I found intimidating and somehow that was my first match."

I can see how one could infer that he is implying a set-up or conspiracy here, but I personally think he was just lamenting his bad luck. Especially taken in conjunction with this quote:

"To lose to a guy like that makes it a little easier. Big... huge ... move well with power.... no surprise I get matched up with him."

I think Ray was just saying: "just my luck eh?"

rogue

12-12-2005, 08:46 PM

Well 7, ray does say he got his ass kicked and that the guy was better than him. I don't see that as an excuse and it's a valid justification for his lose.

Face2Fist

12-13-2005, 06:33 AM

ray

who was in your corner?

Mr Punch

12-13-2005, 06:59 AM

Props Ray.

I don't think you were being an arse in your description for once btw, fwiw.

Do you think your possible lack of conditioning made a difference in the end? (And the same question to David Ross and Mortal and anybody else who saw it...) I probably won't believe you if you say 'no' !... but what do you think anyway?

Cheers for the report Mortal1.

Ford Prefect

12-13-2005, 08:57 AM

Props for stepping into the ring and fighting people who are competitors. I hope it has openned your eyes to skill of those who tore through many similar amateur fights/fighters and are now fighting pro.

SevenStar

12-13-2005, 09:28 AM

Well 7, ray does say he got his ass kicked and that the guy was better than him. I don't see that as an excuse and it's a valid justification for his lose.

That part, I agree with. But then later he makes the "Big....huge..." statement. Ray is the main one saying attributes training doesn't matter and fighting a bigger, stronger guy means nothing. Then he talks about losing to this huge, strong guy...

rogue

12-13-2005, 09:50 AM

I agree with that part 7, but let's let him explain that himself. I'm for giving him a chance to come to grips with what happened and then explain where he thinks his training failed.

Mortal1

12-13-2005, 10:07 AM

"mortal 1 - Amen to that comment all wing chun blocks are deflections !"

It's good to agree!

"Do you think your possible lack of conditioning made a difference in the end? (And the same question to David Ross and Mortal and anybody else who saw it...) I probably won't believe you if you say 'no' !... but what do you think anyway?
Cheers for the report Mortal1."

The fight did not go on long enough to test his stamina. So I couldn't tell Mat.

I have to say I find it hard to believe his opponent never fought. He was a ripped titan and he had skills. He overwhelmed Ray completely. I think it is very possible some of these guys weren't comlpetely truthful about how many previous fights they had. Or they fought in other arenas besides sanshou and then said that was their first fight. lol if that really was his first fight he certainly was well prepared. I'm not making excuses for Ray. Just being honest.

On a side note the mongolian team was feirce. They easily won their fights. Many of the american fighters looked all sterioded up. I mean these guys were ripped. The mongolians looked like a bunch of skinny asian dudes. Their timing and power generation, as well as their overall technique was a lot better. They knocked out quite a few guys easily. Many times the non mongolian fighters would just throw a high kick into the gaurd with no set up what so ever. I still don't understand this tactic. I also see no use for the spinning back fist. its sloppy sacrifices all structure and leaves your back totally exposed.

My two cents.

Face2Fist

12-13-2005, 12:12 PM

"
The fight did not go on long enough to test his stamina. So I couldn't tell Mat.

I have to say I find it hard to believe his opponent never fought. He was a ripped titan and he had skills. He overwhelmed Ray completely. I think it is very possible some of these guys weren't comlpetely truthful about how many previous fights they had. Or they fought in other arenas besides sanshou and then said that was their first fight. lol if that really was his first fight he certainly was well prepared. I'm not making excuses for Ray. Just being honest.
.

My two cents.

maybe the guy had fight experience or maybe not, maybe he just trained hard, he was well prepared by his teacher/coach.

remember ray, has fighting experience too, he says he does throwdowns.

so saying that the guy had prior fighting experience and ray didnt is not true. if you look at it, ray had the advantage because he fought san shou before and he does throwdowns.

as for weight difference, the guy made weight so theres nothing wrong with that.

SevenStar

12-13-2005, 12:28 PM

I have to say I find it hard to believe his opponent never fought. He was a ripped titan and he had skills. He overwhelmed Ray completely. I think it is very possible some of these guys weren't comlpetely truthful about how many previous fights they had. Or they fought in other arenas besides sanshou and then said that was their first fight. lol if that really was his first fight he certainly was well prepared. I'm not making excuses for Ray. Just being honest.

He was a wrestler, according to coach. So he's competed before, but probably not in a striking venue. However, that being the case, ray was not truthful either. he listed 1-0, but that doesn't include all of the throwdowns he's been to.

I still don't understand this tactic. I also see no use for the spinning back fist. its sloppy sacrifices all structure and leaves your back totally exposed.

It's a very powerful technique. it's not sloppy when done correctly, but it does momentarily expose your back. That's a trade-off you have to be willing to make if you use it.

Mortal1

12-13-2005, 12:28 PM

"maybe the guy had fight experience or maybe not, maybe he just trained hard, he was well prepared by his teacher/coach.

remember ray, has fighting experience too, he says he does throwdowns.

so saying that the guy had prior fighting experience and ray didnt is not true. if you look at it, ray had the advantage because he fought san shou before and he does throwdowns.

as for weight difference, the guy made weight so theres nothing wrong with that."

He definitly trained hard. I'm not defending or making excuses. Just saying what it looked like to me. I'm sure the guys weight was fine but I thought he looked a little big. I wouldn't want that guy to be my first ring fight though.

Your right there was a lot of talk that wasn't backed up. I'm just trying to be objective. Its not like Ray lost to some puny girly man with boobs. The guy was carved out of granite. :p

Djimbe

12-14-2005, 02:15 AM

Umm , let me make a Comment about "Throwdowns"

They arent Fights .

Not even REMOTELY .

At BEST they MIGHT be compared to an Open Sparing session at a school , or a BJJ "Open Mat" time , if youre familiar with that Structure . Guys arent Peaking , theyre not Making weight , its not a competition Environment , and they "Go" at varying levels of intensity and Ruolesets determined by the participants on the spot , and there arent really any Set ANYTHINGS , even Equipment can Fluctuate .

I understand the Misconception , because i had the same one before I ever attended one , but franklly most of the ppl at Throwdows REALLY REALLY Suck , ESPECIALLY At Striking . Theyre Typically Grapplers that just want to "Roll" and wnt put gloves on at ALL , or at best they WANT to bvecause htey dont typically GET to , and thus have very little in the way of Skill or Experience at it . So the difference between a guy that has 15 Sambo matches stating that hews "0-0" at comps because hes never done a single San Da rules match is WAY different than a CMA stylist doing the same , especially since its OUR ruleset ! Thats like saying that a Second year BJJ student has a Record of 150-150 because hes Rolled 300 times in classes ! Its just Extra Training/Sparring for ppl whos schools dont do enough of it for whatever reason , really . And from what I know about it Ray does these things like once a MONTH , and dosent spar much at his school , so its not exactly like hes doing more Sparring total than anyone at any other San Da Gym , Im sure Sifu Ross' guys spar far more Regularly than Ray gets to , and he dosent cout all of THOSE instances as "Fights" .

Djimbe

12-14-2005, 02:28 AM

Sifu Ross :

The guy said :

Somehow God, or whoever set these matches, was against me and that's who I drew. He was the only fighter in that place I found intimidating and somehow that was my first match. The first match of my weight division. I'm going to be surprised tomorrow to find out that Stephan Cloud did not win it all at 187.... a very good fighter.

You REALLY took this as a LITERAL indictment on your Integrity ? How ? Are you Psychic , and you somehow KNEW he Intimidated Ray ? Or do you think youre God , perhaps ? Im not exactly Rays biggest fan , but youre just stirring up crap here , Intentionally , and thats not the way that members of this community should act tward one another . You dont like the guy , fine . But he showed up and payed you your Fees and competed in yoru event , keeping YOU in business another day . You tok the THINNEST of Skeins and wove it into a whole TAPESTRY of Ill Will tward you , when none was Intended in the first place . Its like a Napoleonic Complex or something . I mean , Why do you NEED so badly for him to have been Abusing you , personally ? I say that because he WASNT , but you went WELL out of your way to make it that way .

rogue

12-14-2005, 05:44 AM

Pass the popcorn.

Face2Fist

12-14-2005, 06:34 AM

well said djimbe.

wiz cool c

12-14-2005, 06:53 AM

My teacher was at the event as well. We had a guy from our school fight. And he said the guy that Ray fought was a monster. He said he looked like his walk around weight is about 215.

Ray Pina

12-14-2005, 07:40 AM

First, I have no excuses. I lost to the best fighter I have ever fought in my life. He would have beaten me that day in the ring, the street corner or the cage.

I did not quit. I was knocked to the canvas 3 times, TKO. The first one, the one when my knose broke, was a fight stopper. Most likely he would have submitted me with a rear, naked joke, being that I was kissing the canvas.

The other two knock downs were more slips/off balance while taking a shot but I was still able to fight. But I'm glad it ended the way it did. I saw what I needed to see. Know what I need to do.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't care that he weighed in at 185 and I wieghed in at 179. I don't care that he's naturally 210 easily and I'm 187. I want to be able to fight this type of good, well built, highly-skilled and attributed fighter.

Ross, I thank you for this opportunity. I'm going to train, build up some more attributes, and ask this man for a rematch at his gym. He's a great fighter. I also want to apologize to him for that ground action.

As for you, I lost what respect I have for you.

You set weigh in at 3:00 p.m. and when I get there your fighters are apparantly weighed in already .... me, the guy who beat me, and the other fighter not from your school never saw those guys weight in. That's why I know my guy was 185. I saw it with my own eyes. You dismiss us all to go put weight on and we all walk out.

Also, I know you saw that guy. Everyone did. I know you set the matches. I can't help but think of you and the way you are and how I, and not one of your fighters, gets the first crack at that fresh guy who was obviously 210 but cut to 185 somehow.

This doesn't bother me though. I saw the guys fighter below me. To think if I cut 3 more pounds I could have been the Goliath, but that aint my way. I'm glad I fought that guy.

I got knocked off balance by a good kick and bounced off the rope into a heavy right hand that broke my nose. I still had fight in me and never backed up. Down 2 more times and TKO.

Next time I'll have a corner. Next time I'll be more fired up.

I lost a fight to a very good fighter.

As for you, you almost split your pants doing a single leg takedown demo in pre-fight instructions. I was not in that guys class this Sat. You are not in mine. No way.

Ray Pina

12-14-2005, 07:40 AM

Ray Pina

12-14-2005, 07:52 AM

To answer some questions I saw raised.

My conditioning was actually fine. I wasn't winded. Though it was only 1 round. But we didn't dance at all. It was all fight.

I had no one in my corner other than my friend with a camera.

I was most impressed by two things in regards to the other guy: he moved really well, I could never really get my hands on him. Or rather, I couldn't jam him up. He kind of leaned back and circled like Ali.

Also, the speed and power of his shots. I bounce off the rope and his right hook, bam... very short power, but crisp. Very good.

In the end, the guy was good and bigger. But I feel I didn't raise me spirits enough. I was ready to fight. But not to kill. Don't know why. I was pretty nervouse the night before. MOre than usual. Because I was fighting more to make a point for everyone else, lot of pressure. But that's a good lesson too.

But like I said, boils down to" got beat by a better fight. Need to train more. Chillin for like 30 days because of work travel, will keep with the underground fights and will like to fight that guy again in May.

Face2Fist

12-14-2005, 08:03 AM

Wong Fei Hong

12-14-2005, 09:39 AM

Props to ray for saying exactly what happened and for what he believed.

If i could ask a simple question , not to hijack the thread but do any of these events or similar ones , ever get tested for roids cutting substances or stimulants ?

lkfmdc

12-14-2005, 11:00 AM

Ray, you've completely lost it...

First and foremost, you didnt' fight one of my fighters, so why even try and claim they didn't weigh in???

Nor were any of my fighters in your bracket. Actually, I would have loved for one of my guys to fight you... but I didn't have any 187 lbs ready...

There's no point in talking about my fighters at all... except to note that we went 6-1 that day...

You were there when Stephan weighed in. Are you claiming he didn't weigh in EXACTLY THE SAME WEIGHT AS YOU? He weighted in at 179 also. I can post if need be the weigh in sheets.

You weighed in about 2 minutes apart from eachother, the same scale, the same weight.

If you could have cut more weight, why didn't you? Excuses...

There was only three guys in your class, yourself included, in the back, everyone's papers were put face down and we randomly chose two guys for first fights. It could have just as easily been you vs David Rapp... or David Rapp vs Stephan...

Face it, you have excuses for everything

If you had lost to David Rapp you'd be on here with the same excuses...

If you had beaten David Rapp, you would have had to face Stephan, then your excuse would have been that you were tired...

If Stephan is such a "monster" then why did David Rapp last more than TWICE AS LONG AS YOU DID?

You lasted a total of 1:39

David Rapp, in beginner forms, with no fights, lasted until 2:28 of the second round, ie a total of 5:28 seconds...

Most people in attendance felt that the shots on the ground were intentional. You were clearly losing and you looked desperate. Is your teacher proud of that sort of behavior?

Do we need to dig up the posts about how you were going to be a whirlwind of violence and take the guy out in the first round?

You posted very egotistical claims prior to this event. Is your teacher proud of that sort of behavior? Especially when you didn't back them up??

So, in conclusion, despite your very loud posts about your advances and new secret techniques, you didn't do any better in this match than you did in your first match. All you can do is comment on how the guy LOOKED

Anyone who was there saw a lot of very cut up and nasty looking guys, who got their BUTTS KICKED... so he was in shape? He had NO FIGHTS and you are supposed to have been learning all this advanced fighting technique?

You've been talking about how much you've advanced since you last San Da match. But a wrestler with no fights and 8 month of striking hit your face at will?

I suggest that if you want anyone to take you are all seriously in the future, you stop posting and actually get in the ring and win a match...

GOOD DAY

Mortal1

12-14-2005, 11:00 AM

Judging by the size and muscle definition I don't think there is testing. Some of those guys were ripped and huge.

lkfmdc

12-14-2005, 11:09 AM

Djimbe ....

It is self evident from Ray's own post that he thinks he was "set up"

Though, the obvious question is, how was he set up being put in against someone with less experience, less fights and who weighed in EXACTLY THE SAME WEIGHT AS HIM...

2nd point, if Rya's guy was such a monster, why did a guy with less experience than Ray, LOTS less experience, go 4 minutes longer with the guy, and only quite because he was tired...

BY Ray's own posts, this guy with 8 months of striking training hit him in the face at will....

Prior to this, all we heard about was how Ray had learned all these new techniques, had advanced so much and how he was going to destroy ANYONE he fought in this event...

Maybe we should dig up those posts, where Ray said that with his new skills none of it would matter, he was going to beat anyone...

As for Ray's pathetic attacks on me or my fighters, also pretty self evident. We don't claim any advanced, secret internal yet seem to be winning all the time. We've said that Ray's ideas on fighting can not be proven. So far, we've been right

In two matches, both against guys who are pure beginners, both of whom never fougth before, Ray didn't last even a round....

If Ray wants us to believe he has the "answers" to fighting... he should at least be able to last a round with newbies with less than a year's experience

I predict Ray will enter more events, keep losing, and keep posting excuses why...

rogue

12-14-2005, 11:18 AM

Also, I know you saw that guy. Everyone did. I know you set the matches. I can't help but think of you and the way you are and how I, and not one of your fighters, gets the first crack at that fresh guy who was obviously 210 but cut to 185 somehow.
I guess I was wrong about what I thought Ray meant. :o

SevenStar

12-14-2005, 12:23 PM

Judging by the size and muscle definition I don't think there is testing. Some of those guys were ripped and huge.

or they can just have low body fat and a lot of muscle...

Ray Pina

12-14-2005, 12:29 PM

That part, I agree with. But then later he makes the "Big....huge..." statement. Ray is the main one saying attributes training doesn't matter and fighting a bigger, stronger guy means nothing. Then he talks about losing to this huge, strong guy...

No. That is not what I said.

I said I want to train in a way that does not rely on attributes.

That guy was better than me. He moved better than me. He came in strong and anytime I jammed him he escaped before I could get a clean shot off. And when I couldn't jam, he had good, crisp, short punching. Very good!

What I need is some more training, a deeper focus, a corner and 15lbs wouldn't have hurt either.

My main point though, is that it wasn't his conditioning, it was his attributes. How do I overcome someone 10 years younger, 20 lbs heavier who is a better athlete?

I can cut 30lbs and push around guys who are 170lbs. That wouldn't help me with this guy. I didn't do anything wrong actually. I stopped most of his attacks.

I', watching the footage again. I break out of a clinch and chase him down and he did an awesome job of kicking out my lead leg, which spun me, through me into the corner, and after I bounced around and back out, I ran right into the shot that broke my nose and put me down. After that, the fight was more close, but I went down twice more -- none fight stoppers, I just didn't fight to stay up, made more sense to go down at the time (crunched in the corner).

So, I'm back where I started. Do I try to train to match this young guys ability? Dude, he was Ivan Draggo. I'll post the video before the week is out. Or do I continue down the road that I see? How my master can beat me, a younger, tougher, faster kid who, believe it or not, can fight.

I see it. I'm still chasing it.

But I'll post some video this week. My entire loss -- it aint long:) -- and some wins too. JUst for some street cred;)

Ray

PS
Ford, you're right. This guys ability humbled me a notch or two. What a great fighter! I'm actually glad that this happened. It's inspiring..... and I got the X-ray technitians number. Date #2 tonight:p

MasterKiller

12-14-2005, 12:29 PM

I imagine these guys cut to make weight. In that case, they would look pretty ripped because they would have shed a lot of water weight. That's part of the game. I cut down from 167 to 159 for Lavato's tournament this summer so I could compete in the lightweight division.

Ray Pina

12-14-2005, 12:46 PM

I don'thave much to say, because I lost and I lost fair. Better yet, I got beat by a better fighter.

So don't accuse me of making excuses. I'm talking about something else. I'm talking about how I wouldn't think of cutting more weight so I could be the big guy among smaller guys. I fight who you put in front of me.

Stephan Cloud did not weigh in at 179 .... I did. I know he weighed in at 185 because your man, the doc taking the weight, said it. I was there. next to get on the scale. I don't care about his weight. He weighed what he weighed when he beat me. And he did beat me. No excuses, just lessons learned.

But you, claiming 6 wins but nobody saw your guys get on the scale. Your judges. You decided what time we get started after you say 11:00 and we all wait till 3:00 ..... these are all advantages you set up for your guys, at your event, under your rules. I did get that guy down. But he was fighting for position, and all evidence suggests he would have gotten top position and beat me some more. That guy was good. And strong. And fired up.

I wish I was more fired up. That's my only regret. My technique actually did alright. Just that the shot that got in was an earth shaker. I'm proud for getting back up and fighting with a broken nose. He wasn't trying to straighten it for me after that.

But my real problem with you Ross is that you're still talking. I went there to fight because you talked $hit and wouldn't back it up. But I heard you did the same thing with a Sambo guy. Totally punked out. So you send others to fight for you.

I'll fight you or any of your guys with no gear and no ring. They don't have to be 187.

Also, as far as Throwdowns, YES, they take many forms depending on who shows up and what they want to do. The ones I fought in were fights.... in that two guys with no gear went to do the same thing I just did Sat. Just, instead of me beating someone I got beat.

Don't say what something is if you're not there. Jim, maybe you went to some Philly throwdowns, maybe Maryland. I've held 4 or 5 ina row in NYC and don't disrespect the guys who got broken ribs, opened heads, ect. They didn't think that was sparring.

lkfmdc

12-14-2005, 01:25 PM

If it helps you sleep at night Ray, go on believiing my students only win because of some trick...

Try hard not to remember that they won in the Full Contact and Muay Thai divisions also, which I had nothing to do with

Try hard not to remember the times they have gone to Cung Le's events in CA, beaten Cung's own guys and with CA state commission judes

Try hard not to remember that last weekend, Yohei won with a 1st round KO, because that would make the judges argument sort of silly

Or that the only guy who lost was due to a decision, I guess my hand picked judges got it wrong?

Try not to remember the guy who went to Las Vegas and got offered the K-1 contract....

Must take a lot of effort to block out so much reality

Ford Prefect

12-14-2005, 01:35 PM

lkfmdc,

So Cloud is 33? Interesting. I'd edit that picture. I would be extremely ****ed if a promoter posted my personal information like that on the internet. Are those his home address and phone number?

lkfmdc

12-14-2005, 01:38 PM

Ford, thanks, didn't relaize that, so I just took it down

But you noted two important things I guess,

1) weight

2) he's a 33 year old guy, no superman

lkfmdc

12-14-2005, 01:43 PM

Here is just the top with his name and weight....

Again, thanks Ford

Djimbe

12-14-2005, 01:52 PM

I guess I was wrong about what I thought Ray meant. :o

Dittoe !

Apologies all around .:p

WinterPalm

12-14-2005, 01:52 PM

Lkfmdc, earlier you said the fighter weighed in at 179 but that card shows him weighing in at 185?? Which is it?

Sorry, I see two weights? Is that how you set up a pre weight class and actual weight?

lkfmdc

12-14-2005, 01:59 PM

Winterpalm, I see where you are confused... look again

The top boxes are what the doctor actually filled out so you'll see blood pressure, pulse and the actual REAL weight that he weighed in....

The top line he put what weight he THOUGHT he was....

Clear???

WinterPalm

12-14-2005, 02:01 PM

Oh, I see. When you cut it down it was confusing as to what it meant?

Thanks.

Ray Pina

12-14-2005, 02:05 PM

Look, fu(k the weight! Don't make it about that. This guy was the best fighter I have ever fought in my entire life. Great hands, great movement.

Ross, I don't want to take away from your guys either. I didn't see their fights, but to step in there, you have to have something .... and it's nothing you could give them Ross because you don't have it. You can give them technique that you learned. And they can run with it.

All of the above has to do with guys who showed up to fight. We all setteled our business with our fists.

Ross, you can discuss what I did or didn't do, what I should do. But I caution you, as soon as you make it about you and me, I want to settle it the same way. And I know and you know that's the last thing you want to happen. I stood next to Cloud, and I knew inside I didn't have enough. I could feel it radiating off of him. I knew about everybody as soon as I walked in that room.

You were there too. I know all I need to know about you. I'll fight you --- you still consider yourself a martial artist right --- anytime, anywhere, anygear, any rule format (though you know that don't mean a thing to me, especially if I'll get your a$$ in front of me).

After that, I don't have much else to say. Because I know there is a better fighter than me out there and I have to do something about that. I didn't feel that way about my first San Da match. I new if the gloves were off I would have killed that guy. He was protected by the gear and the fact that we stopped over and over again. Cloud is something else. I know he'd beat me. That's something different. I feel better about this. I got beat by a very good fighter. I'll figure out how to post it before the weekend.

lkfmdc

12-14-2005, 02:06 PM

I had to cut it because, as Ford pointed out thank lord, it had personal info on it...

But if I posed Ray's as well, you'd see both thought they were 185 but weighted in both at 179.5

It's funny how Ray just can't except that no matter what, he wasn't going to win that day....

If he fought Rapp in the first round, he might have lost. If he won, he'd still fight Cloud and he'd claim he was tired or injured from the first fight

If Cloud was such a "ringer" then why did a guy with a LOT less experience that Ray go 4 more minutes with him???

David Rapp has no "throwdowns", no san da, no Taekwondo tournaments, etc... he's a beginner who went 5:38 with Cloud... four minutes longer than Ray

lkfmdc

12-14-2005, 02:14 PM

Let's make this simple, you claim your master is great.... he beats you up right?

I'm not scared of you at all, I do think you've got some serious issues. For example, you can't come to grips with the fact that all the fighters coming out of my gym (this year makes 10 years I've been producing fighters) are a DIRECT RESULT of me...

You can't come to terms with the fact that no matter what, you were going to lose on Saturday and I had nothing to do with it.

Neither Rapp nor Cloud are experienced martial artists, neither had fights before this.

If you had beaten Rapp first, you'd just complain that the previous fight made it hard to fight Cloud.

If Rapp beat you, you'd be in an equal pickel wouldn't you?

Rather than rattling your sword on the internet and making yourself look silly, I have an EASY answer... I'll fight your teacher. If he's better than you and I'm willing to fight him, I'm clearly not afraid of you....

I'm afraid if I beat you up, people will call me a bully. After all, you've lost to two beginning level fighters in under a round so far....

So feel free to set up a match between me and your teacher, no gear, no rules, tap snap or nap.....

ANything other than that is just BS....

Ray Pina

12-14-2005, 02:16 PM

Listen Ross, I'm not you. I'm not comfortable setting up a fight for someone else. But if you want to come see my master's school, pay us a visit, I'll be very happy to bring you this Fri. Pretty please..... with a cherry on top.

SevenStar

12-14-2005, 02:23 PM

Ross, I thank you for this opportunity. I'm going to train, build up some more attributes, and ask this man for a rematch at his gym. He's a great fighter. I also want to apologize to him for that ground action.

Out of curiosity, why at his gym instead of in the ring?

lkfmdc

12-14-2005, 02:27 PM

Listen Ray and really try to understand what I am saying

I don't care about you one way or another. Neither positive nor negative.

I actually think I've been nice to help give you a forum to try and fight and learn something.....

Your response is to try and blame me for your outcome.... which of course you can't because like I've said several times, there were only three possible formats for a tournament with three people.... in all of them you would have had to fight Cloud.

Your other resonse was to yet again try and say that my fighters aren't what they are and take away from them....

In simple terms, unless you have success as a fighter or success as a trainer, you don't have much ground to criticize me.

I never make much of my fighting "career" but if you want to compare them I won the NY State full contact Taekwondo title two years. I also won third in the NACMAF open weight fighting in Baltimore, MD. That's at least 6 documented wins in sanctioned competition.

As a trainer, we both know very few people in the entire US have a similar record of success.

I've suggested you enter MMA because if you REALLY think that the gloves and no hitting on the ground are the difference, then in MMA you can prove me wrong and prove yourself correct...

I've even offered to get you in touch with those people...

Heck, you want a re-match with Cloud under MMA rules? I can make it happen if you are willing to travel to OH in January...

It's all on you man.... but you don't interest me in the least and the reality is you don't have any ground to criticize me or talk about me....

You got a training brother emailing me. I actualy prefer talking to him....

SevenStar

12-14-2005, 02:31 PM

My main point though, is that it wasn't his conditioning, it was his attributes. How do I overcome someone 10 years younger, 20 lbs heavier who is a better athlete?

Like ST00 said... you gotta train smarter.

So, I'm back where I started. Do I try to train to match this young guys ability? Dude, he was Ivan Draggo. I'll post the video before the week is out. Or do I continue down the road that I see? How my master can beat me, a younger, tougher, faster kid who, believe it or not, can fight.

In a sense, yes, you do want to train like that. Why? you want the attributes to be as close to even as possible. I would keep with your teacher's training, but I would supplement with some strength training and cardio.

JUst for some street cred;)

:p

and I got the X-ray technitians number. Date #2 tonight:p

Is she hot - like ming yue hot?

FatherDog

12-14-2005, 03:07 PM

Look, fu(k the weight! Don't make it about that. This guy was the best fighter I have ever fought in my entire life.

The fact that the best fighter you have ever fought in your entire life is a guy with eight months of striking training pretty much validates everything that's been said about the quality of people attending your throwdowns.

Djimbe

12-14-2005, 03:18 PM

Also, as far as Throwdowns, YES, they take many forms depending on who shows up and what they want to do. The ones I fought in were fights.... in that two guys with no gear went to do the same thing I just did Sat. Just, instead of me beating someone I got beat.

Don't say what something is if you're not there. Jim, maybe you went to some Philly throwdowns, maybe Maryland. I've held 4 or 5 ina row in NYC and don't disrespect the guys who got broken ribs, opened heads, ect. They didn't think that was sparring.

Dude , IF your Throwdowns produced broken Ribs ALL that tells me is that you werent wearing Proper Gear . I dont get hurt , or hurt pp unless Im getting Paid to do so . Its Irresponsible , especially since you , as Host of these things dont have Insurance for them , Im betting . However Ive seen FAR worse Injuries in Traqining . I just wouldnt be raging about my Recklessnes were I the cause of such a thing .

Ive been to QUITE a number of Throwdowns , Yould actually be suiprised . The fact that you cans seem to get that when youre Tiring out hat thats the DIFFEREENCE beteween Sparring wigh your Friends

Additionally , IF you happen to disagree with somethign I say , feel free to make that disagreement heard - HOWEVER - dont you EVER Tell me what I can and cant state , this is the second occasion that you have done so on a Message Board . The next time you do it it had not only better be Face to Face but at that level of Disrespect you had better be holding a Gun to my head . YOU do not Dictate Whom or What I am . You barely know enough about me to pick me out of a Lineup , yet you think you have me "All Figured out" , or what my Relationships are with other ppl . You do NOT , trust me in this . Please also never again compare yourself to me , as you did in your other thread . Ive NEVER come close to exerting a TENTH of my abilities or Power on you . You mistake Kindness for Weakness because I am capable of lowering my attributes to your level . Dont tell me whos Student I am And Am not - thats not for YOU to decide - Even iof I only show up once a DECADE that relationship is between ME and DBC . Not YOU . You presume FAR too much my man .

rogue

12-14-2005, 03:22 PM

Have you and Ray fought before?

Djimbe

12-14-2005, 03:30 PM

Have you and Ray fought before?

Hell no .

What would be the Point ?

rogue

12-14-2005, 06:58 PM

Not looking for a point Djimbe, but the way you were going off on him I thought you two had some history.

Ray, What did your sifu say? Have you thought about adding a little training at a sanda gym to fix the holes in your game?

Ray Pina

12-14-2005, 09:00 PM

I just came off a great awakening moment in my martial life and I'm not about to get side tracked by all this "martial art" politics.

Ross, my situation with you is that you are always dismissing my training. Your guys can fight, you can coach. My issue is I'm not sure your method can carry over into ones golden years. We can debate theories, ect. all day. Tell me what I should have done in the fight. That's fine. That's talking about the game. But if you say I suck as a fighter, then, we have to fight to prove who's right, who's wrong.

Now, like I said, I have things to work on. If you want to come to my master's place, I'll be there Fri. and so will my master. I'm sure he'd love to have you. He's more crazy about martial arts than me. Sure he'd love to see something.

Djimbe, school brother, I'm not going to drag our school stuff out here for everyone. And it's shame, because I enjoyed this place and now because of this I can't be a part of it because I never want my actions to reflect upon master purely.

I'll remind you, we did speak about that incedent in person. And perhaps maybe I said something that seniors wanted to say but were afraid because you're 400lbs. I didn't think I was being disrespectful.

And again, as for the Throwdowns, I think it is only respectful to those who showed up to fight to make sure their actions that day are not misrepresented by someone who was not there.

Djimbe, I think you are misunderstanding me. Think about my actions, think about the love of the school I have. Also, for the martial arts in general. Then you'll see my intentions came from a good place.

Now, I must move on. I just got beat by a great fighter and I need to improve myself.

Ultimatewingchun

12-14-2005, 09:49 PM

"I'm not scared of you at all, I do think you've got some serious issues. For example, you can't come to grips with the fact that all the fighters coming out of my gym (this year makes 10 years I've been producing fighters) are a DIRECT RESULT of me..." (Dave Ross)

***CAN'T TAKE ANYMORE OF THIS!!!

I happen to know that 10-12 years ago Dave Ross and his partner, Steve Ventura...were still doing Lama Kung fu style - because at the time they had a big space in Manhattan and we rented it a few times for some William Cheung Wing Chun seminars.

And all my suspicions about this "San Da" phenomena that Dave Ross now claims to be such a SUPER coach about were confirmed when I had a conversation this past summer with Mark Negron - who was a fighter affiliated with Ross's San Da place for a number of recent years and who now is a promoter here in the NYC area himself. (Met Mark when I went to buy some tickets to the event that Mark ran here at Gleason's gym in Brooklyn a few months ago...San Da matches...kickboxing matches...and some sambo matches).

As I said - Mark confirmed what I always suspected about Ross being some sort of San da coach "guru" - it's all done with smoke and mirrors.

Ross himself is not a fighter in any way, shape, or form...he's a clever businessman who has surrounded himself with OTHER people who have REAL skills - and spends most of his time going back-and-forth from his computer (where he spends inordinate amounts of time on the internet blowing his own horn)...and going to the workout area and shouting out some instructions to the people who are really doing 90% of the grunt work.

Had the nerve to go on a UG thread I was involved in some months ago and questioned my right to teach my wing chun students in the privacy of my own school the Catch-as-catch-can wrestling I've been learning from Tony Cecchine in addition to wing chun - since I'm one of Tony's long distance students (he's based in Chicago).

When I invited Ross to come to my school and check me out if he's so convinced I don't know what I'm doing - his response was to volunteer that his "students" fight my students with San da rules at some upcoming event at that time.

Sound like a familiar story?

shirkers1

12-14-2005, 10:16 PM

the plot thickens, rogue pass the pop corn. :D

lkfmdc

12-14-2005, 10:23 PM

Victor aka "Ultimate Wing Chun" must be smoking some serious crack if he thinks Mark Negron is a fighter, much less a NY San Da fighter....

Mark Negron has never had a fight in his life. He was an artist who was hired by us to do some designs. I'll give him his art skill, he is a pretty talented artist. He's also a pretty good con artist because after about 6 months of training with us he tried to set himself up as a trainer and a promoter....

Anyone in NYC, go to Kingsway Gym in Manhattan and watch or take Mark Negron's class. In 5 minutes tops you'll realize he doesn't have a clue.

Victor, do you think saying I studied Lama Kung Fu is an "expose"?? Pretty much everyone on this board knows that. Heck, one of the longest threads in the history of this forum is about my Lama teacher Chan Tai San. Read it and you'll also see he was a San Da instructor for the Chinese military.

Victor is pretty insecure about his "catch wrestling"... since he's here in NYC and Tony C is in Chicago, add to that the fact that Tony C claims to be seriously injured and no longer teaches, the obvious question was how long Victor trained with him...

Heck, give Ray credit, he isn't a liar in any way. He is 100% up front about what he's studied, with who and for how long.

Victor refuses to say how long he studied with Tony C, if at ALL in person. A former student of Tony C's who posts on MMA.tv says that Victor bought the video tapes and paid a fee and is now certified to teach....

All we ever asked Victor was how long he studied with Tony, the fact he ducked the question like the plague should say a lot

We also invited Victor and any of his students to the open mat MMA league we did. He claimed he was too dangerous, rattled on about some street fights he had etc etc... fine, he doesn't want to come to the open mat, that's fine...

I guess guys like Victor are attracted to guys like Mark Negron... birds of a feather

Victor, if you want to believe some silly conspiracy theory, go right ahead. Rational adults realize that good fighters don't appear out of thin air. The fact that since 1996 I've consistently produced skilled fighters isn't in question.

Hey, Ray and I have gone back and forth on here but even he admits that the guys from my gym can fight.

Hey, Ray, compared to Victor's rant, I have to say our discussion seemed like a quiet chat!!!!! LOL :D

Take care Ray

Take care Victor... but if you do want to put your students in any of our events they are in fact welcome

Face2Fist

12-15-2005, 06:49 AM

[QUOTE=Ray Pina]I just came off a great awakening moment in my martial life and I'm not about to get side tracked by all this "martial art" politics.[QUOTE=Ray Pina]

you got beat, thats not an awakening, it happens to everyone.

[QUOTE=Ray Pina]And again, as for the Throwdowns, I think it is only respectful to those who showed up to fight to make sure their actions that day are not misrepresented by someone who was not there.[QUOTE=Ray Pina]

throwdowns, dont train you. like i have said in the past its just CMA playing UFC and Pride. a perfect example you, you had a false sense of security thinking you could go into the ring and beat everyone. again, it was the big fish little pond mentality, a big gold fish in a little pond gets thrown in a big pond with bigger fish gets chewed up.

[QUOTE=Ray Pina]Djimbe, school brother, I'm not going to drag our school stuff out here for everyone. And it's shame, because I enjoyed this place and now because of this I can't be a part of it because I never want my actions to reflect upon master purely.[QUOTE=Ray Pina]

i think you brought this upon yourself, by your comments, you'rerepresenting your style and master in this forum and by saying the things you have said in the past it does make your teacher look bad. youre a grown man and you should know better.

Mr Punch

12-15-2005, 07:10 AM

The fact that the best fighter you have ever fought in your entire life is a guy with eight months of striking training pretty much validates everything that's been said about the quality of people attending your throwdowns.That's pretty funny... but it may just have an element of truth!

I just came off a great awakening moment in my martial life and I'm not about to get side tracked by all this "martial art" politics.Getting your ass kicked is NOT an awakening... you need to get your ass kicked more, or smoke more weed or something.

BTW, would someone with sufficent chi development blast that popcorn over here please?

Ray Pina

12-15-2005, 07:22 AM

1) Ross, you're guys can fight. No doubt about it. You must be doing a good job coaching. Again, my only problem is when you make personal attacks to another martial artist but don't put your own body on the line to back them up.

2) Throwdowns are an open forum. You can get what you want out of it if you arange for it before hand. When I go to a Throwdown I make it clear I am bringing 4oz gloves, a mouthpiece and a cup. I play to submission, either via strikes or locks. Who shows up and what they do is no different than the San Da fight I just had. They know what they're getting themself into. No gear .... to submission. FightHouse has a liability waiver we all sign upon enering. But martial code has prevailed above all. There have been a few slight injuries nothing major.

In the end, I fight where I can with whom I can to learn and progress. What I don't want to do anymore is "spar," because sore losers ultimately increase the intensity anyway and you wind getting hit with a cheap shot while practicing restraint. So I'd rather just have it be full from the beginning.

3) Djimbe, I don't know if you check your PMs or not. But I'll be completely open and honest with you. I thought it was unfortunate that you visited the school a handful of times, got a picture with teacher and somehow some BJJ guys posted that along with them submitting you.

You're a huge guy. If you get master's technique there's no reason why you couldn't be UFC Champ of the world. I hope you do see him often. I hope you can come train on the Tues. and Fri. because I could always use intensity in my training. Did you hear we are padding the floors and walls? Soon we'll really be able to play in that place. Have you been to the new place?

Ultimately, I mean no disrespect to you. Quite the contrary, I think you're a sweet guy for a guy your size, I respect your drumming ability. At know time did I think I was speaking down to you. But at the same time, I train with master so even while speaking upwards to someone of greater stature, I don't have to lower myself as well.

Be well everyone. Happy Holidays. I have a lot of nothing to do for the next week or two as I heal and travel for work.

If anyone needs me, I'll be lurking.
Peace
Ray

Ultimatewingchun

12-15-2005, 08:02 AM

I stand by every word I said.

Mark Negron confirmed every suspicion I had about Ross - and even mentioned an incident wherein Ross decided to go into a competition himself - and was tooled so badly that his partner, Steve Ventura, had to lecture him about NEVER DOING THAT AGAIN...as it would be bad for business.

Not surprised at your latest rant about Mark...about me...etc.

Just another attempt to blow smoke in people's faces so that they don't see the facts (about you) that are staring them in the face.

But you can't fool all the people all the time...

And when you attempt to 5hit on as many people as you do - sooner or later the STINK will find it's way back to your front door.

That's just the way it is, Ross.

David Jamieson

12-15-2005, 08:07 AM

Ray-

Im gonna say to you that I doubt you will be on your quest to fight for much longer.

the more times you get beaten, the less likely you will be so quick to rush in.

Eventually, you will peter out and your interest in proving yourself will diminish like your ego as it falls to the ground like the blood from your mouth.

You will age and as you get older, you will raise your eyebrows at the 20 somethings filled with p1ss and vinegar who call you onto the floor and then tell you you're an ass for backing down or not stepping up.

with age comes a little wisdom, I would hope. With experience comes a lot more wisdom.

the more you bleed, the less you're going to want to. The more you fight, the more you come to realize you are not all that and you certainly aren't what you thought you were.

You are what you are. There are 10,000 who are better than you at any given thing you think you are great at. You are only one of 10,000 who is better than someone else at what they are wrestling with mediocrity about.

The whole competitive thing will diminish and frankly, eventually you will not give a sh1t about fighting anymore.

lkfmdc

12-15-2005, 08:20 AM

Victor, the fact you think Mark Negron is a fighter is laughable.... like I said, he never fought once in his life and has about 6 months of training.

Want but one classic example of how Mark Negron is a giant fraud? Just visit his web site where he put up pictures of all our fighters. NONE of them have anything to do with him. He doesn't represent them in any way. But he tries to fool people into thinking those are his guys....

Somone should call him up and ask him how they can get in touch with all those fighters on his web page,,,, he'll stammer and hum and haw and make excuses

Or just visit Mark, watch him train and in 5 minutes you'll realize he's a raw beginner

Ray Pina

12-15-2005, 09:03 AM

You are right. Someday I will tire of going to fight barefisted. And on any given day anyone can best anyone else on anything. I surf because I love it. I'm pretty good, not the best.

I know I'm not the best fighter in the world. I want to prove that martial artist, particularly internal martial artists who train with Master David Bond Chan, can fight, hold their own.... and without steroids, cutting weight, lifting weights, sprinting, eating broiled chicken. Just by going to class twice a week.

I have proven that to myself already. I know how much I have grown. I still have some things I need to do for myself, and losing one fight to a very good fighter who won the entire day is not the end of the world. I still haven't fought my best fight.

What you want me to accept is a loser mindset. No way. That's for the mediocre. I'm an amatuer. This is my time to lose and learn. Rocky Marciano lost most of his matuer fights and then went undefeated as a pro. How old was Foreman when he regained his title?

Only your mind can limit what your body can do, especially at this stage in life. I've never been better. I learned my defense can be penetrated .... the good news is that it took a much better guy to do it. Now I need to refortify my defense, increase my offensive weaponry. I actually just started a new phase of my training a few weeks ago. I know I'll improve as much as I did last time after I lost.

This fight, even after the broken nose, cool as a cucumber. Relaxed. Even when I was knocked down that 3rd time (watching the tape, the 2nd was a slip) I was able to fight. I never gave up. I never backed up. Pushed back, yes. But I stepped to this guy on every encounter. And he was scary, let me tell you that.

But I aint close to done. I'm just getting started. Hell, I have time. Part of the point I want to make is that the old can beat the young. If it takes me to 40 I'll do it.

What's with this loser talk?

Reggie1

12-15-2005, 09:56 AM

Ultimatewingchun

12-15-2005, 10:14 AM

I'd like to pick up on what's being said here, Ray...

I've been reading some of your posts/threads over the last several months - and you are indeed very arrogant/brash/headstrong at times...and you haven't been able (yet) to live up to some of your claims and boasts.

However...

You do have something else going for you: BALLS !!!

You're not afraid to mix it up, risk injury (ie.- your nose was broken)...risk being ridiculed on a public forum after you lose a fight, etc.

That takes balls.

And I don't know about some of the other guys around here - but what you've got goin' for yourself goes a long way in my book.

Just keep on learning and growing and you'll be just fine in the end!

MasterKiller

12-15-2005, 10:29 AM

UltimateWingChun:

Out of curiosity, how long did you spend in person studying wrestling with Tony C?

SevenStar

12-15-2005, 11:47 AM

I know I'm not the best fighter in the world. I want to prove that martial artist, particularly internal martial artists who train with Master David Bond Chan, can fight, hold their own.... and without steroids, cutting weight, lifting weights, sprinting, eating broiled chicken. Just by going to class twice a week.

Ray, you will never be able to prove that... Even if YOU were able to do it, people would think it was just a once in a lifetime fluke. you simply cannot be a competitive fighter that way. Do you really think you coulda taken matt hughes based on what you said above?

I have proven that to myself already. I know how much I have grown. I still have some things I need to do for myself, and losing one fight to a very good fighter who won the entire day is not the end of the world. I still haven't fought my best fight.

I'm interested in a study... The guys at the throwdowns - find out how often they train, what their diets are, etc. Then compare them to these guys that beat you at the san da events. I bet there is a marked difference.

Only your mind can limit what your body can do, especially at this stage in life. I've never been better. I learned my defense can be penetrated .... the good news is that it took a much better guy to do it.

This better guy trained less than a year. This is why I am interested in the study above.

But I aint close to done. I'm just getting started. Hell, I have time. Part of the point I want to make is that the old can beat the young. If it takes me to 40 I'll do it.

What's with this loser talk?

this is the right attitude to have.

Ray Pina

12-15-2005, 01:14 PM

SevenStar, you were right.

If I'm going to fight guys like Cloud -- I doubt he's been training for only 6 months. I've been fighting, and saw the fighters there, he's better than most, if not all of them. Definitely natural attributes. But he's trained -- then I have to take on the competitor's mindset. I can't just be a tough-headed traditionalist.

I have to train harder. I also have to play the game that I want to win. I can't just show up with a friend holding a camera and a towel. I need to cut weight too. If I walk around 187 I shoulod cut to be a huge 176..... that is what all these guys do. I see that now. My first fight I stepped on the scale 30 minutes before my fight. I wasn't worried about making weight. I was a heavy weight. This time I just made sure not to get soft during the winter.

Now, these are not excuses. I got beat by a better fighter. But to continue I need to find reasons. I think my technique served me well. I put him down, I jammed many of his attacks. A few ruthless punched got in and one, the first one, creamed me as I bounced off the ropes.

So I need to focus more. I need to surround myself with people that will focus more with me. I need a corner.

I know what I have and I see what these guys have. I don't put them on a class above me. They have more ring experience and were focused on this game.

This was just one of the things I was willing to do. But now I have to win one of these for my head. My goal is to win in the cage next year, but I'll be fighting where I can.

Enjoying the holidays and traveling for work next month, and then hardcore eye of the tiger ****. This was an important fight for me. Like I said, eye opening.... even if it was my nose.

SevenStar

12-15-2005, 01:36 PM

So I need to focus more. I need to surround myself with people that will focus more with me. I need a corner.

This is an entirely different issue. You have to know how to work a corner. Do you know any experienced cornermen?

lkfmdc

12-15-2005, 02:11 PM

UltimateWingChun:

Out of curiosity, how long did you spend in person studying wrestling with Tony C?

LOL :D

(takes out popcorn and waits)

lkfmdc

12-15-2005, 02:16 PM

fa_jing

12-15-2005, 04:58 PM

I think that attribute differential can be made up for with superior skill, but only if you are within 5-10% of those attributes to start with. You shouldn't continue to compete at this level unless you can jump rope for 30 minutes straight, and you should be doing up to 10 3min rounds punching the heavy bag. Personally I was toast after 6 rounds, even with pacing. Try doing ab work between the rounds and you will see what it takes to get to the next level. My teacher, who used to fight full contact did this and also sick routines with the thai pads and the mitts. Or literally, train at a MMA gym. The time I went to Waterdragon's MMA club I was blown away by the amount of work they put in, like you're too sore to move the next day (until your body adjusts). It's just training, you won't pollute your fighting abilities. Who cares what people say. People who use traditional styles and win train the MMA way with MMA guys. Then they say that the traditional helped them win but the doubters say, "no they trained MMA that's what they used." But smart people that train TMA just take the fighter's word for it, after all they should know they were the one's fighting. Like when I said my teacher was able to use some traditional techniques in the ring and people doubt it. Well, you know what, you can't do it without giving some food to the doubters, there's no way to stop them from doubting and why do you care about giving them no room or basis to doubt. They already have that after your two losses so why give it any more thought. Do it for yourself and your teacher. If you came and beat someone at these events and you had the same or even better conditioning but you said that your style worked well for you, well you didn't exactly prove it but a smart person will believe you, I sure would.

rogue

12-15-2005, 07:55 PM

I'm just telling you what I tell my own fighters, do your talking in the ring. Win like a champion and lose like a champion....
D@mn nurturing touchy feely bastich. :D

Wong Fei Hong

12-15-2005, 08:49 PM

Well apart from this thread really being kinda gayed up, and to add flavour to the whole thing UWC is having ago at sifu ross and vice versa is hilarious i guess it all stems from the grandmaster of the twc system :D .

1 as i said props for ray fighting and speaking his mind.
2 sifu ross posted a pic on another thread and the other dude looks quite big but a weight category is a weight category. And that photo looks funny !

3 the dumbest **** ive ever seen is the fact that people are jerking off and spouting all this mma ufc pro fighters this fighters that fighters internal yadda yadda BUT the competition we are talking about is so amateur its held in a little room judging by the photo and the amount of entrants. 3 guys to 1 category
And also the headgear is so huge that you gotta be a total amateur to get your nose broken no guard !!!
Yet despite all this we are giving the depth of the discussion mentioning names of world class fighters , competitions of pro fighters and the like . This imho isnt only gay its downright retarded.

ray man my 2 cents is this , when you do chi kung it makes the stuff in your brain think that you are superhuman, in reality it doesnt make you superman not for a good 15 years or so anyhow. Also when you dont shoot your load it ****s with your head even more.
I used to think chi kung was the best thing since pot noodles, and i would go around teaching it left right and centre until i started to see people going fruit loops from it. Thankfully ive only seen one person who i taught go as crazy as a fruitcake all the rest werent so enthusiastic to do it to this degree.
But i would go to my acupuncturist and he was like dont **** about with chi kung it will drive you nuts, go to my chinese sifu and he would be like do tai chi but drop the chi kung real chi kung will make you go nuts. For years i thought wtf ???
Until i started to see it around me.
Other people who learnt from various sources were going just as wacko with time i would see people telling me about their dangerous chi flick which could crush through bone, people who would tell me about their great internal power where they can root and they are immovable where they could defeat all opponents etc etc.
In china they have clinics for ppl who have lost it from chi kung.

Then the other matter arises of the whole sex techniques separating orgasm from ejaculation will drop you deader than a ripe fig in a second if you dont know what you are doing.
You dont **** with stuff like that and think you are conserving energy, you arent, you are killing yourself by tottally upsetting the balance of your body. The mintue you orgasm without ejaculating you dry out all the yang in your body go overly hot and if you think you are doing some sort of microcosmic orbit or opening the crown with the excess energy its even worse it get jammed in your head and you start talking about being god and ****.
To add insult to injury your body breaks down the sperm so you still have to produce more,which means that your body is tired and working overtime still.
But the energy in that sperm is released so you have a load of energy flying about in you which has no grounding no solidity. Which if you are really really unlucky will also go straight to your head since youve become light.
If this worked the power of lightning would be harnessed to power the world with electricity.
Not having a go at you but its my 2 cents of how most ppl start to act when they do some chi kung and start to feel the effects.

Now if you want pm me more than happy to talk about this more,ive done more types of mental and body yoga , taoist chi kung, hard and soft medical chi kung, black and white tantra and ki work than ive had hours of sleep.
If you guys who dont believe in chi thats fine you dont have to read the above you can ignore it.
And those who think they know better well .......... :rolleyes: lets see you guys win the next ufc using your chi power ey ;)
Im not saying i havent seen energy do things some people might call miracles im saying the ratio of people ive seen in real life compared to the people that have lost it are really way out there.

WinterPalm

12-15-2005, 09:00 PM

I'm sorry, but that was the craziest thing I've read here...EVER!:D

Green Cloud

12-15-2005, 09:15 PM

Ray,

My professional opinion, simply, just keep training, keep showing up and doing your best. I'll never attack you for losing... I didn't here if you look at what I actually said. I DO respect that you got in there. I don't even think "badly" of your throwdowns. I just think they aren't getting you anywhere.

I'm just telling you what I tell my own fighters, do your talking in the ring. Win like a champion and lose like a champion....

I hope you can see what I am saying, it isn't a personal attack at all
Hey dave who are these guys??? Sounds to me in the previous threads thats these guys are not only ganging up on you but Implying that we don't train trap spar what ever??? And whats this nonsense about. You have to introduce these guys to me. I like testing other kung fu guys out. Show me your stances and I will show you mine. Don't need no gloves or gear or anything of the sort, just bring some goog kung fu you know what I mean! Oh yea me and my bro Dave only fight Sifu's everyone else has to pay for a private lesson. I opologize if I ruined this thread my first time on this site and felt like I just had to jump in and intervene. It's a hing dai thing ya now what I mean????

Merryprankster

12-16-2005, 07:01 PM

Jesus Christ there is a bunch of ****ing and moaning here about roids, diuretics and cutting weight.

Here are some helpful tips from a guy who's been around the block once or twice regarding competition in weight class sports.

In amateur competition they don't usually test for roids. Suck it up. Roids may or MAY NOT do you any good re: competition depending on what you are taking and how you are employing them. Steroids improve protein synthesis in the body. Apart from side effects, that's pretty much it. They don't have much to do with body fat - it's quite possible to be a fat ****er and be totally juiced. Body fat is a function of diet and exercise. Some steroids actually promote fluid retention and can increase fat storage. Others do marginally improve lean mass/adipose tissue ratio, but looking at a big, cut guy who is still within normal human weight limits won't tell you anything about it. I know two guys, both strong and cut for their weight, who don't go near steroids, and look a lot like Ray's match-up bodywise. So what.

Have I faced roided out guys in competition? Without a doubt. Guess what? It's part of the game. If they want to cheat, I don't really care. At the end of it all, it's just one factor among many.

Secondly, some people have naturally low body fat. Third, some people are weight cutting masters. I am not - although I have pretty good skills in that area, and I can tell you that 10-15 lbs is no big deal. I can do 20 with some work, and I've done 25. This is not cheating. There is nothing wrong with it. The "somehow," statement about getting from 210 to 185 implies there's something odd at work. There isn't. It takes discipline, focus, drive and some smarts. That's it. I walk around at 210 or so right now, and I've competed as low as 173 as an adult. I don't think I'll do that again, but that is a different issue.

Fourth - diuretics are shunned by most weight class athletes because of their severe effects on performance. Some WILL take them if weigh ins are the day before, but truthfully, a steam room and plastic bags work just as well for that and have fewer side effects. You won't find too many weight class guys willing to take diuretics for same day weigh ins. Turning into a human statue from a full body cramp isn't really the goal.

Fifth - sometimes you get bad draws. I've gotten ****ty draws at the Pan-Ams every year I've gone. I've lost in the first or second round in close matches to an eventual finalist. Similarly, I watched somebody I've taken apart go very far in their bracket, earning a medal.

Guess what? I don't ***** about it. In fact, the last time it happened, I was thrilled, because it was the very first time in a major competition that I had personally managed to compete like I wasn't afraid to lose (which, paradoxically, is what makes it possible to tap in to your best performances).

Do you want to know what those losses to those great guys make me? Just another guy the champion beat on his way to the title. Who knows who would have beat whom? More importantly, who cares? All that matters is what YOU did that day. When you start talking about draws and match-ups at a tournament, you're taking focus off yourself - your own performance - and trying to change the focus to OTHER people. As long as you look for reasons to/about winning or losing outside yourself, then you'll never maximize your own potential. It's not about what happened TO YOU, it's about what YOU DO. Anything else is delusional.

It's all part, like Coach Ross said, of winning like a champion, or losing like a champion, instead of competing like a whiner.

lkfmdc

12-17-2005, 04:37 PM

Victor Parlati, who has of course disappeared from this thread once the issue of how he became "a catch wrestling instructor" was raised, was trying pretty desperately to try and make it seem like there is some contradiction between my background and the fact my school is well known as a fighting school...

Chris Jurak, aka cjurakpt, has known me since college and can testify that my teaching has always focussed on fighting. Long before there was a 17th street school for Victor's school to rent for a seminar, I was teaching people how to fight, with kicks, with punches, with knees, with grappling, on the ground....

My "Lama Pai" background isn't a secret and he isn't "outing me"... and, of course, the fact I have such a strong fighting school comes from the fact I am a student of Chan Tai San...

These days, I just prefer to identify myself with the fighters and not with the politically correct, granola crunching, new age so called "traditonalists" who are in fact totally dis-connected from what TCMA used to be about, ie FIGHTING

Chris, please do feel free to tell them about how I taught way back in the day..

You might also want to tell them about the bare knuckle brawl I had at old NYU....