How effective is Wing Chun?

[ไRui_Jingδ]

I am very interested in the style because I have seen the fast handmovements used, but how effective would wing chun be against someone who has had other martial arts training. I know it's a stupid question because a smart martial arts practitioner would never have to prove himself and end up in a fight anyways.

I'm just curious though: How well would Wing Chun work against a street thug? I live in the city and my area constantly has people getting beat up and robbed. Would wing chun training be the best choice for street self defense?

And I know this has probably been discussed here before, but: How would a Wing Chun practitioner go about fighting against a BBJ guy. It seems they would just have to take you off your feet and you'd be finished. These big strong BJJ guys, how would you go about them? I'm not a huge guy with big muscles, thats why I find Wing Chun so interesting...But does it really work?

Thanks. I'm not trying to start any arguements or say that WC is inferioir, I'm just curious. Could someone explain it to me?

[ไRui_Jingδ]

And I'm not trying to learn some fancy move that I can just perfectly apply when someone decides to rob me. (like some jackie chan movie scene) It's impossible. I just want to know that I'm not completely helpless if something did happen though.


edit: and no, im not trolling. I'm seriously try to decide what style I should study.

[ghostofwingchun]

ไRui_Jingδ I can only respond to some of your questions . . . I am thinking wc is not for everyone just like nothing is for everyone . . . your martial art should play to your natural strengths . . . but it takes time and experience to find those natural strengths . . . just like how do you know what sports you are good at? If you want to know how wc can be used go find good wc group that fights . . . they will show you and you will see for yourself . . . seeing with own eyes is always best evidence. You may look at recent thread about Alan Orr group winning NHB fights . . . this sounds like group that fights with wc . . . and there are others . . . but must search for them. If worried about defense for street it is much easier to carry weapon.

Thanks,

Ghost

[edward]

wing chun is okay, but its no match against Tae Bo..

[viper]

wing chun is nothing against shaolin do

[Nick Forrer]

And I know this has probably been discussed here before, but: How would a Wing Chun practitioner go about fighting against a BBJ guy. It seems they would just have to take you off your feet and you'd be finished. These big strong BJJ guys, how would you go about them? I'm not a huge guy with big muscles, thats why I find Wing Chun so interesting...But does it really work?


Actually BJJ is a lot like WC in that if you're good at it you can beat people who are bigger and stronger than you.....Both are fairly easy to find in any big city....why not try both......many people on this forum such as Rene R, Andrew N, Andrew S, Terence N, Lawrence and myself practice both. Wing chun for stand up, BJJ for the ground.:cool:

[Fajing]

Actually BJJ is a lot like WC in that if you're good at it you can beat people who are bigger and stronger than you.....Both are fairly easy to find in any big city....why not try both......many people on this forum such as Rene R, Andrew N, Andrew S, Terence N, Lawrence and myself practice both. Wing chun for stand up, BJJ for the ground.:cool:


Good post Nick. I agree. You should give both of these arts a try. This way you will know which suits you better, in addition to which you prefer. Like Nick said, you may prefer to combine the two. In my opinion, both are effective. A lot depends on the practitioner. :cool:

[couch]

Good post Nick. I agree. You should give both of these arts a try. This way you will know which suits you better, in addition to which you prefer. Like Nick said, you may prefer to combine the two. In my opinion, both are effective. A lot depends on the practitioner. :cool:

I will also echo this after posting my findings this passed weekend. Even if you don't want to join a BJJ school, at least get someone who is very good at it to attack you to see their side of things. After all, stimulus that you've never seen or felt before can definately take you off guard.

From my understanding, BJJ is complementary to any system of fighting.

[anerlich]

For street defense, read "Strong on Defense", it will be much more useful to you than learning a martial art (though do both).

As for BJJ guys, do people get regularly taken off their feet and armbarred in the streets where you live? No? Why obsess about something that's unlikely to ever happen other than in a sporting contest.

Both BJJ and WC are fascinating martial arts. Their effectiveness depends on the teaching and training methods and training environment.

If you're concerned about staying alive, you are far more likely, a factor of about 1000, to die of lifestyle related heart disease than from a violent assault. Find something to keep you fit. And read "Strong on Defense".

[zooki]

Actually BJJ is a lot like WC in that if you're good at it you can beat people who are bigger and stronger than you.....Both are fairly easy to find in any big city....why not try both......many people on this forum such as Rene R, Andrew N, Andrew S, Terence N, Lawrence and myself practice both. Wing chun for stand up, BJJ for the ground.:cool:

REally, i like the way you guys think :p

[lawrenceofidaho]

REally, i like the way you guys think :p
Nick, Kenton, and Andrew are correct.

Wing Chun Master Samuel Kwok teamed up with BJJ Master Carlson Gracie for a seminar tour which also showed that Wing Chun and BJJ are very compatible and complimentary arts:

http://www.wcarchive.com/store/items/samuel-kwok-wing-chun-seminar-videos.htm

-Lawrence

[zooki]

I get doubts as to whether or not Wing Chun is truly effective.. i dunno, im still new to it..

Muay Thai seems to be more accepted in the MMA community and has a fiersome rep.

I guess i can do the conditioning at home.. but what about sparring?? My school is traditional one.. no sparring at all. Sifu says its not needed. He is student of Ip man.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"My school is traditional one.. no sparring at all. Sifu says its not needed. He is student of Ip man."


***AS SOMEONE who's been doing wing chun for the last 30 years, (and teaching for the last 21 years)....let me say this to you, zooki:

GET OUT OF THAT SCHOOL AS FAST AS YOU CAN!

You'll be wasting your time and your money; and if there are no other wing chun schools in your area that train realistically - then go join the Muay Thai school you mentioned.

My two cents.

[lawrenceofidaho]

GET OUT OF THAT SCHOOL AS FAST AS YOU CAN!

You'll be wasting your time and your money; and if there are no other wing chun schools in your area that train realistically - then go join the Muay Thai school you mentioned.
I agree 100% with Victor's advice above.......

-Lawrence

[lawrenceofidaho]

.. no sparring at all. Sifu says its not needed.
This is a huge red flag....... :(


He is student of Ip man.
That may be true, but it won't do anything to help you learn fighting skills.......

-Lawrence

[Matrix]

This is a huge red flag....... :( So you're saying that choosing a school is based on whether they spar or not? You know nothing else and yet you are advising him to leave. I would call that a red flag.

[stonecrusher69]

zooki I get doubts as to whether or not Wing Chun is truly effective.. i dunno, im still new to it..

Muay Thai seems to be more accepted in the MMA community and has a fiersome rep.

I guess i can do the conditioning at home.. but what about sparring?? My school is traditional one.. no sparring at all. Sifu says its not needed. He is student of Ip man.



I like to ask you a question?do you think your sifu can fight? if he can't Fight then why are you there?If he can then maybe you should listen to him.I'm sure he knows alittle more then you do...

[Matrix]

doyou think your sifu can fight? if he can't Fight then why are you there?A MUCH better question, IMO. :)

[lawrenceofidaho]

So you're saying that choosing a school is based on whether they spar or not? You know nothing else and yet you are advising him to leave. I would call that a red flag.
Bill,

This topic started with a gentleman expressing an interest in learning fighting skills, -not following (what Ray described well on another thread) an "artist" program.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39499

Why shouldn't someone be suspicious of a school (that is supposedly teaching you a skill) discouraging you from ever testing your performance in that skill?

-Lawrence

[Matrix]

This topic started with a gentleman expressing an interest in learning fighting skills, -not following (what Ray described well on another thread) an "artist" program.Understood, but I stand by my comments never the less.

Why shouldn't someone be suspicious of a school (that is supposedly teaching you a skill) discouraging you from ever testing your performance in that skill?Suspicious? That may mean that you should look deeper as any good student would do. There are more questions to ask before you bolt for the door. Something brought him there in the first place. If things have changed that much then so be it. I'm just saying that there's more to it than one factor.

[lawrenceofidaho]

do you think your sifu can fight? if he can't Fight then why are you there?If he can then maybe you should listen to him.I'm sure he knows alittle more then you do...
The problem is, -how will he find out?

If you asked the sifu if he can fight, he might tell you a story or two, but that's not going to help much in really finding out what kind of skills he possesses, and it's doubtful he has medals or footage from full-contact kung fu invitationals that he's participated in if he's a "no sparring" guy.

So where does that leave him if he desires an answer to that question? -Maybe he could look to see if the sifu is producing fighters out of his school? (How would a guy at his kwoon stack up against a guy of equal experience from the Muay Thai gym up the street?) Problem again. -If sifu says; "No sparring." we'll never see his guys in action to be able to judge their skills either.......

:(

-L

[stonecrusher69]

I would never join a school if I thought a sifu could not fight.Simple test him or a senior out.If they refuse I would head for the door.Th esifu I'm with now.When I went to see him I told him I did not think he could teach me anything by looking at his students,so he simple said attack me!! so I did,and I found out fast this man had something I needed to learn.that was 3 years ago.

[lawrenceofidaho]

I would never join a school if I thought a sifu could not fight.Simple test him or a senior out.If they refuse I would head for the door.Th esifu I'm with now.When I went to see him I told him I did not think he could teach me anything by looking at his students,so he simple said attack me!! so I did,and I found out fast this man had something I needed to learn.that was 3 years ago.
I think you've brought up good points, but maybe the prospective student doesn't have any previous training like you did when you walked into your current school....... An untrained person might be impressed by the sifu demonstrating completely unrealistic techniques.

-Lawrence

[stonecrusher69]

lawrenceofidaho.....I agree 100% what you said.The best thing would be for him to bring a friend who has experience and get feed back from him if possible.If you can't do that then you will have to educate your self as best you can about WCK(read books etc) and ask good questions and ask the sifu to demonstrate.One is he should be able to do what he talks about,so if he says I can knock someone back 10 feet with a single punch ask hi do do it on you.Aslo even if you can't fight at least you can get some idea about his skill if you attack him.If he has a hard time with you then you simply leave you've seen enogh.A good teacher should be miles ahead of you.This is a tuff spot to be in when you have no experience. I went throught that myself.I joined a few crappy schools way back but that is how you learn.

[sihing]

ไRui_Jingδ I can only respond to some of your questions . . . I am thinking wc is not for everyone just like nothing is for everyone . . . your martial art should play to your natural strengths . . . but it takes time and experience to find those natural strengths . . . just like how do you know what sports you are good at? If you want to know how wc can be used go find good wc group that fights . . . they will show you and you will see for yourself . . . seeing with own eyes is always best evidence. You may look at recent thread about Alan Orr group winning NHB fights . . . this sounds like group that fights with wc . . . and there are others . . . but must search for them. If worried about defense for street it is much easier to carry weapon.

Thanks,

Ghost
Ghost,
I have to whole heartedly disagree with your assessment that WC is NOT for everyone. IMO it is for everyone, tall/short/big or small. Yes, everyone will express it differently based on their own individuality, but the core of the system is based on efficiency and effectiveness (movements that require less effort to perform and they work). WC transcends limitations that the individual brings to the table. Most people I know have some sort of physical problem with them (bad backs, neck, knees, etc...), and they still perform well in the art. If you can still perform well in the art, regardless of your disabilities, then all you have to do is learn to read your opponent, what is his set up and interrupt it. This applies to all MA applications but not all of them have the ability to do this effectively or without injury or damage on the way in to the person using it (take one to give one mentality).

Concerning the sparring thing, well you have to eventually test what you have learned. The intensity & randomness of the attacks you are practicing against have to increase incrementally as you progress thru the system. If all you do is forms, dummy and chi-sao, you will have no idea of what to do outside of the non contact range. Entry, positioning with your opponent, reading his intentions, gauging distance and structure are all important concepts to learn and apply when wanting effective combat skills, never mind having the ability to use your own tools well, with speed and stopping power.



James

[Matrix]

I think you've brought up good points, but maybe the prospective student doesn't have any previous training like you did when you walked into your current school....... An untrained person might be impressed by the sifu demonstrating completely unrealistic techniques.Just to be devil's advocate, that same person could just as easily be impressed by a club where everybody spars but does not do so with any real skill.

[zooki]

Hi thank you guys ...

Stone Crusher, nice reply, I think he is a good fighter! lol. I dont think im at the stage where i can challenge MA Instructors.. :p

I guess i feel weary because of the way the class is held.. its a traditional Wing Chun School, different to everything i have done before.

I did do martial arts before, and they were pretty "Hard" MA where strength was valued, there was a JKD guy who loved showing off his stab wounds.. lol.. He would literally go around throwing people on to their backs on the hard ground... Ok.. I left them behind ages ago!! I did enjoy doing Silat and Kali with a MAlaysian student in university, which i enjoyed a lot but he had to leave back to Malaysia.

Perhaps i need time to get in the wingchun mindset where brute force isnt exactly what is needed.


Apart from my "beginner's doubts" regarding Wing Chun, I like the Instructor and Class in general as they appear to be polite and humble, and talk with good knowledge, unlike some people i have trained with in the past.

[stonecrusher69]

Some people don't like traditional training and some do.I perfer traditional training my self.give your new school a change and if your sifu is good you will see the treasure of WCK unfold.With traditional training it's not all about fighting there is much more you can get out of it if you want it.There is the health/healing side and the spirtual side of the training as well.With other arts which might be great for fighting sometimes they lack the spirtual side.There mind set is kill kill kill.When your 60's do you still want this mindset or do you want something more out of your art....

Good luck with your training..

[Samuel Fong]

The answer really depends on how you measure.

First the best martial art is the one that you best understand.

Next Wing Chun is the best there is!

Wing chun is a joke!

I train twice a week and beat up the drunk jerk bully in a bar. Yeah its the best!

I train twice a week and a thai boxer kicked my butt. Wing Chun is a waste!

I only train wing chun. Its the best! If you havnt expierenced anything else how would you know?

I trained several arts until I found wing chun and its the best I found for me!

Whats your standard. Want to beat ken SHamrock? no problem train like Ken.

Part time Sifu cant beat Ken. Does that mean Wing Chun is no good?

Question can only be answered based on your goal and standard.

[Phil Redmond]

zooki I get doubts as to whether or not Wing Chun is truly effective.. i dunno, im still new to it..

Muay Thai seems to be more accepted in the MMA community and has a fiersome rep.

I guess i can do the conditioning at home.. but what about sparring?? My school is traditional one.. no sparring at all. Sifu says its not needed. He is student of Ip man.



I like to ask you a question?do you think your sifu can fight? if he can't Fight then why are you there?If he can then maybe you should listen to him.I'm sure he knows alittle more then you do...
If you're in or near South Jersey try here:
Sifu Keith Mazza : 3747 Church Road, Mount Laurel, NJ, 08054 : 856-231-0352
Phil

[stonecrusher69]

Phill was that post directed for me or zooki?

[ghostofwingchun]

The answer really depends on how you measure.

First the best martial art is the one that you best understand.

Next Wing Chun is the best there is!

Wing chun is a joke!

I train twice a week and beat up the drunk jerk bully in a bar. Yeah its the best!

I train twice a week and a thai boxer kicked my butt. Wing Chun is a waste!

I only train wing chun. Its the best! If you havnt expierenced anything else how would you know?

I trained several arts until I found wing chun and its the best I found for me!

Whats your standard. Want to beat ken SHamrock? no problem train like Ken.

Part time Sifu cant beat Ken. Does that mean Wing Chun is no good?

Question can only be answered based on your goal and standard.

This discussion I am thinking seems to revolve around two things . . . Mr. Fong I am thinking you have gotten to crux of matter of one . . . it comes down to how you measure . . . or how you test . . . or to put another way . . . how you define ability . . . Socrates say beginning of wisdom is in our definitions . . . and this I am thinking is why so often people talk past each other . . . they use same expression but define it differently . . . and thus test it differently . . . second thing I am thinking is that many come to art with expectations . . . or preconceptions . . . or wishful thinking . . . rose colored glasses . . . and then fall in love with art . . . and only see what believe is beauty in art . . . not the warts . . . hey what is wrong with me to say wc has warts! . . . lol . . .now combine these two things . . . and person can define fighting ability in such a way to only expose beauty and not warts . . . effectiveness is using straight line . . . why . . . because I define it so . . . straight line has less movement and is beautiful . . . wc punch is effective . . . why . . . because I define it so . . . and so on . . . now if I define effective as works against opponent in NHB fight things change . . . but I don't like that definition since it expose warts! . . . lol . . . rose colored glass tells me wc is better martial art that other things . . . so it must be so . . . if someone tell me wc like any other martial art I get upset since you talk about warts . . . I am thinking that until we all have same definitions it will be difficult to discuss things . . . also difficult for people without rose colored glasses to discuss with those that do . . . so I am thinking until barriers are removed communication will always be tense. This is my thinking at present . . . please criticize my views. . . I want to see my warts!

Thanks,

Ghost

[sihing]

This discussion I am thinking seems to revolve around two things . . . Mr. Fong I am thinking you have gotten to crux of matter of one . . . it comes down to how you measure . . . or how you test . . . or to put another way . . . how you define ability . . . Socrates say beginning of wisdom is in our definitions . . . and this I am thinking is why so often people talk past each other . . . they use same expression but define it differently . . . and thus test it differently . . . second thing I am thinking is that many come to art with expectations . . . or preconceptions . . . or wishful thinking . . . rose colored glasses . . . and then fall in love with art . . . and only see what believe is beauty in art . . . not the warts . . . hey what is wrong with me to say wc has warts! . . . lol . . .now combine these two things . . . and person can define fighting ability in such a way to only expose beauty and not warts . . . effectiveness is using straight line . . . why . . . because I define it so . . . straight line has less movement and is beautiful . . . wc punch is effective . . . why . . . because I define it so . . . and so on . . . now if I define effective as works against opponent in NHB fight things change . . . but I don't like that definition since it expose warts! . . . lol . . . rose colored glass tells me wc is better martial art that other things . . . so it must be so . . . if someone tell me wc like any other martial art I get upset since you talk about warts . . . I am thinking that until we all have same definitions it will be difficult to discuss things . . . also difficult for people without rose colored glasses to discuss with those that do . . . so I am thinking until barriers are removed communication will always be tense. This is my thinking at present . . . please criticize my views. . . I want to see my warts!

Thanks,

Ghost

Yes, the way we test, look at the art bla bla bla is different. The way we learn the art is different and what are instructor's taught us is different. Most importantly I think is the fact that we are all not doing the samethings (Tan sau's are different, positioning's are different, strategy and concepts are different). I know that my WC is differnent from lots of people are here and so forth. This fact doesn't help matters either when discussing things because are we really talking about the same things? Where one person's WC system is strong in one area, it may be weak in someone else's WC.

Concerning the Rose Colored Glasses, this may be so in the beginning but after examination and being truthful with yourself and what you are doing, this attitude 'should' fade away. I think in today's MA world there will be less and less of this as people are always looking for proof, something they can see that confirms what they are hearing.

Barriers arise because some people get personal. The way I found this forum was through Victor's negative comments about my Sifu, a year and half ago. I had to respond, and what was said was unacceptable to me. He basically made comments about my Sifu's ability, when in fact he had not seen him do anything(funny thing was that Victor's seniors had opposite opinions on that subject, as well as his teacher). On the contrary I saw him do lots(I was there to watch his Sifu level test and I have the test on video tape) and therefore have the right to comment on that. Again, try not to look at individuals but look at what they do, in terms of what does their WC teach them. All of the WC works and is effective, that is the base idea behind the system. But there is alot of variation out there and some systems are totally different from others, making it hard at times to discuss between us.

James

[GungFuHillbilly]

This thread has some interesting questions being asked.

The context of the original question was the effectiveness of wing chun in a combat situation where your opponent is a “street thug,” a “BBJ guy,” and a ‘martial artist who has studied something other than wing chun.’

It is interesting to me how a few of you seem to have glossed over the question and immediately began to inject their perspectives on what the question should be.

IMHO, it is not a “style” that is effective; rather it is the individual who is effective.

Unless you are talking about summoning the spirit of Wing Chun and having her fight for you, then it is YOU that is going to put your life on the line, not wing chun.

If you will indulge me for a moment and allow me to rephrase this question: “How effective is Jazz piano for improvisation?”

If you are a musician who plays piano, studying jazz from a good teacher would be good exercise. Conversely, studying jazz from a poor teacher could cause some bad habits that could take years of re-training to correct.

Simply because you study jazz piano doesn’t mean that you are going to be able to improvise well, or be a great jazz piano player, or be able to compose great music. THIS IS NOT (necessarily) THE FAULT OF JAZZ PIANO or YOUR TEACHER!

No matter how hard some people try they will never be great painters, or musicians, or physicists. (Please let’s not get into a discussion now about what makes someone a great ________ (insert vocation/skill here))

And what’s more, if you aren’t a great physicist but you love physics then enjoy and do what you love AS A HOBBY. However, if you are going to charge money teaching physics then perhaps you should truly asses your skills/knowledge/competency so as not to mislead students.

My point is simply that I find all too often people that believe because someone has studied a certain “style” then they are the baddest of the bad! THIS IS COMPLETE NONSENSE! I have met individuals who haven’t studied fighting a day in their life but put them in a fight and watch out. Or for that matter someone who has practiced some street boxing or a high school wrestler.

So please let’s stop talking about wing chun as if it is this objective style that somehow takes possession of someone during a combat situation and realize that it is the latent skill that a person possesses PLUS the time/energy/sweat/dedication that said student brings to the practice PLUS the context of the engagement, when and if it does happen, that will ultimately decide the outcome (and thus effectiveness) of the training.

Also things largely depend on the evolution of the student at the time. Different learning models are better for different students at different times.

Thank you,
GFH

P.S. Ghost, actually Socrates said that the beginning of wisdom was in the realization of our ignorance (and if you want to be specific it was not Socrates who said it, but Plato who wrote that Socrates said…so we kind of have to take his word for it).

[Lindley]

Jingo

I am very interested in the style because I have seen the fast handmovements used, but how effective would wing chun be against someone who has had other martial arts training. I know it's a stupid question because a smart martial arts practitioner would never have to prove himself and end up in a fight anyways.
Your question is not stupid, but lacks clarity. Are you talking about art vs art or person of the art vs person of the art? We can find true masters in any martial art. Those who train at Olympic levels will perform at Olympic levels. An art vs another art is only on paper. The reality is within the combatants and their level of emotion, skill, and intent. You are impressed with the "fast" hand movements? They are not fast, but the results of studying timing and using efficient movements. Our style is often compared to other styles scientifically with reason. It is not better than other styles, but uses its nature and philosophy based on facts.


I'm just curious though: How well would Wing Chun work against a street thug? I live in the city and my area constantly has people getting beat up and robbed. Would wing chun training be the best choice for street self defense? The only defense against a street thug is your ability to be aware and your courage. Wing Chun's true advantage would be time. It is fair to say that one studying Wing Chun is exposed to realistic applicable techniques than most other arts. Again, this is not the art. This is the person.


And I know this has probably been discussed here before, but: How would a Wing Chun practitioner go about fighting against a BBJ guy. It seems they would just have to take you off your feet and you'd be finished. These big strong BJJ guys, how would you go about them? I'm not a huge guy with big muscles, thats why I find Wing Chun so interesting...But does it really work? Wing Chun, as mentioned, should be studied in general concepts with the eventual goal to transcend from Wing Chun to your own Kung Fu ("Jeet Kune Do"). This is your enlightenment as to what your purpose of training is. Two people at the same school and same family may not train the same. There should never be such ignorance to think that students come out the carbon copy of their Sifu. A true Sifu allows the student to express themselves. There will be some who are soft and those who are hard. Their strength as a school and family is the Yin/Yang balance of both.

I do not agree with the statement that you should only learn from a Sifu who can fight. This brings in the concept that Martial Arts training is all about physical training and winning and losing. Learn from a Sifu who can allow you to develope what you need, not make you into something you might not be.

Sparring? Well, this is something I believe a martial arts school owner or teacher should embrace. Again, this should be done in the context of some value. Sparring is an excellent teacher for some things and gives one an experience in a protected combat evironment. Can be good for those seeking that experience, and must be clear that reality fighting is only during that moment when it happens - one cannot simulate truthfully the life and death emotion you experience in a "real" street fight. However, if you play Kung Fu and treat fighting as a game (enjoyment), your chance for success may increase.

Good luck in your Kung Fu

[Lindley]

"...It is fair to say that one studying Wing Chun is exposed to realistic applicable techniques than most other arts. Again, this is not the art. This is the person."

I meant to say "...one studying Wing Chun is exposed EARLIER to realistic (USABLE) applicable techniques than most other arts.

[Phil Redmond]

Phill was that post directed for me or zooki?
My bad, I thought Zookie was from NJ. It was directed at him. I see that you are the one from Jersey. BTW I'll be in S. Jersey in Jan. If you'd like to meet let me know.
Phil

[zooki]

My bad, I thought Zookie was from NJ. It was directed at him. I see that you are the one from Jersey. BTW I'll be in S. Jersey in Jan. If you'd like to meet let me know.
Phil

UK :)

this is the school im plannin on joining

http://www.wingchun.co.uk/index_1.htm

[stonecrusher69]

It looks like a good school.I would give it a try.How many options do you have?check out all the schools and them make a decission.

[stonecrusher69]

My bad, I thought Zookie was from NJ. It was directed at him. I see that you are the one from Jersey. BTW I'll be in S. Jersey in Jan. If you'd like to meet let me know.
Phil




sure maybe..are you going to be in Atlantic City in Jan for the MA masters expo?

[Phil Redmond]

sure maybe..are you going to be in Atlantic City in Jan for the MA masters expo?
Yep, I'll be there with my WC brothers. I'm only going for one day though.
Phil

[zooki]

It looks like a good school.I would give it a try.How many options do you have?check out all the schools and them make a decission.

Hi, i think there is only one other Person who teaches Wing Chun in and around Birmingham and that is Sifu Abid Mahmud,

But, his Associations Website kinda put me off.. it seems weird how his teacher, James Sinclair talks about his teachers Ego..

http://www.ukwingchun.com/Master_James_Sinclair.htm

maybe i will have a look at his class as well..

Also, Sifu Shaun Rawcliffe seems to be much more close to Ip Man then these guys.

[stonecrusher69]

Phil Redmond Quote:
Originally Posted by stonecrusher69
sure maybe..are you going to be in Atlantic City in Jan for the MA masters expo?

Yep, I'll be there with my WC brothers. I'm only going for one day though.
Phil



Great..I'll be there also on saturday with my sifu..I'll look for you when I'll, there.

[andy williams]

Hi
***I'm just curious though: How well would Wing Chun work against a street thug? I live in the city and my area constantly has people getting beat up and robbed. Would wing chun training be the best choice for street self defense?
---I believe Wing Chun can only be part of the answer when discussing defence against a street thug, but is only one element in the defensive/offense scenario. Same goes for BJJ and any number of other MA's. I would strongly recommend that you find a school that truly tests and develops your observational and fear management skills, and very importantly, puts you in as realistic poisitions (as is possible) so that you can monitor your reactions to stress. If you know little about your fear management all the skills training in the world will make little difference as stress chemicals course uncontrolled through your body.

***And I know this has probably been discussed here before, but: How would a Wing Chun practitioner go about fighting against a BBJ guy. It seems they would just have to take you off your feet and you'd be finished. These big strong BJJ guys, how would you go about them? I'm not a huge guy with big muscles, thats why I find Wing Chun so interesting...But does it really work?
---BJJ men have a fearsome reputation, and a big strong attacker, regardless of their MA training, can be dangerous. But no more dangerous than a small man with a weapon, or one that uses surprise etc etc. Read the book Andrew N. suggests and you may be better able to judge wheather a MA is able to supply you with the requisite emotional and physical skills to deal with an attacker.

Andrew W.

[Wing Chun Dummy]

I would say there's no martial art more practical for empty handed combat than wing chun.

By the way, I just noticed:

Phil Redmond; SEMPER FIDELIS; Join Date: Jan 1970
now that's what I call a faithful member :eek:

[Liddel]

You seem to have mentioned a few times about getting close to students of GM IP but this is not the be all and end all. Judge the Sifus you go try out on thier own merits - and i certainly agree with an earlier call - do you think your sifu can fight ?

Just for another perspective -
My Sifu had a similar experience with GM Ip to STONECRUSHERS.

GM Ip asked him to attack him and he drew his own conclusions from the outcome.
for the next ten years he followed Lok Yiu a student of GM Ip and often touched hands with the old man and every time the did, Ip Man asked him to Hit him, no pads, full power.

Also they Did Full contact Gor Sao and the equivalent of sparring with no Gloves OFTEN.

To just learn a martial art, fine dont spar, but to learn a self defence - sparring is a MUST !

So if your Sifu advocates no sparring - dont run for the door - ASK WHY ?
Then draw your own conclusions based on what you want to use it for . :rolleyes:

No point learning to ride a motor bike and then driving a Car to work every day - your setting yourself up to CRASH IMO :)

[Wing Chun Dummy]

at the end of the day i dont wanna get hurt in training .... i'm pretty good at avoiding fights in real life so chances are i'll never need to fight... but training whilst not getting badly hurt is still an advantage over not training at all... still worth doing. :o

question: what if you get an injury in training then have a real confrontation the next day? you're gonna wish you stayed safe the day before in training, right?

[Kapten Klutz]

at the end of the day i dont wanna get hurt in training .... i'm pretty good at avoiding fights in real life so chances are i'll never need to fight... but training whilst not getting badly hurt is still an advantage over not training at all... still worth doing.

I agree with this attitude. I'm willing to risk the occasional injury, but it gets tiresome to feel like I got hit by a car day after day, week after week. It's where I'm happy as long as I can sleep on my right side OR my left side. When both ache like heck it's gonna be a long night. I eat aspirins like popcorn.Maybe it's just a phase and I'll get tougher, but right now I'm struggling to hang in there.

[Wing Chun Dummy]

Taoist quote:

Measure and pound it: it will not long survive.

[Knifefighter]

I like to ask you a question?do you think your sifu can fight? if he can't Fight then why are you there?If he can then maybe you should listen to him.I'm sure he knows alittle more then you do...

It doesn’t matter how good a fighter the instructor is. If he never has the students spar THEY will never become good.



There mind set is kill kill kill.When your 60's do you still want this mindset or do you want something more out of your art....

Absolutely! When you’re in your sixties, this is an even more important consideration. As you get older, an assailant’s attack can have longer and more devastating repercussions to your physical and emotional well-being. That mindset will make you less likely to become a victim.





PLUS the time/energy/sweat/dedication that said student brings to the practice PLUS the context of the engagement, when and if it does happen, that will ultimately decide the outcome (and thus effectiveness) of the training.

The training IS the style.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Their mind set is kill kill kill.When your 60's do you still want this mindset or do you want something more out of your art...."


"Absolutely! When you’re in your sixties, this is an even more important consideration. As you get older, an assailant’s attack can have longer and more devastating repercussions to your physical and emotional well-being. That mindset will make you less likely to become a victim." (Knifefighter)


***DON'T KNOW how old Knifefighter (Dale Frank) is...but as a 55 year old man - I can second his comments. My mindset is much more dangerous to potential assailants/opponents now than it's ever been, precisely because I know that at my age injuries can occur easier and take much longer to heal. Therefore if I have to fight someone/defend myself - I want to take them out really fast and really hard...and so I'd be much faster now to try to do something serious to the guy.

[Liddel]

'Wing Chun Dummy' & Kaptain Klutz i certainly can see your POV and i also dont want to get hurt during training.

However its seems your view of sparring is quite constricting.....
You dont have to go full power / hard out - you can tame it down and still throw punches and kicks with less power.

My sparring is most of the time 80 - 90% anyway - but thats just me.
If i do get injured or sore even, i can easily tame it down or work on something else - this attitude seems like a cop out IMO. (with relation to ME :) )

I sliced my index finger to the bone recently and i still went to training to watch and talk with sifu.... he said - "you still have three other limbs you can use...."
I spent the rest of the night doing leg strength and kicking training. :eek:

And i felt good after too :p ( my finger throbbed a bit though :( )

You know there is some merit also in training when you feel sore or tired or just not 'in the mood', i believe in Murphy's Law - Life will throw a confrontation your way just when you dont feel like it , when you've had a few to drink or just finished traininng and are dog tired or you just dont feel like it.
A fight will rearely come when your full of energy very alert, and in the mood for some biffo....

[Wing Chun Dummy]

My sparring is most of the time 80 - 90% anyway - but thats just me.

Well I won't be worried about getting attacked by you then if you're opponents are still happily sparring after u've given them you're 80 - 90% :rolleyes:

My 100% is a finger in the eye - sparring is over in a second because the opponent is blind. You can't condition your weak spots nomatter how hard u try. Training all the bruises is not realistically gonna help you much. Techniques worth training don't need to be hurtful to your training partners.

[Kapten Klutz]

You know there is some merit also in training when you feel sore or tired or just not 'in the mood',

Definitely. I always go to the scheduled trainings regardless of how I feel except for two times directly after I broke a rib. I don't see it as an option, 'should I go train or not?'. It's not up to moods, it's about comittment. I also train extra with a friend about once a week.

Don't get me wrong, I like the 'almost sparring' training that I've done with a friend and we're working towards sparring for real, though it won't be 100%. It's been a very humbling experience, and I want to keep at it because I realized how many hard lessens there are to learn. I just want to keep the injuries to a minimum, esp since I'm a bit on the old side.

[Kapten Klutz]

My 100% is a finger in the eye - sparring is over in a second because the opponent is blind.

There are some tactical/moral considerations involved. I practice eye strikes, not to hurt my training partner of course, but in case I ever need them.

However I see eye strikes as a desperation measure for an asymmetric situation.

If I am unfairly attacked by someone stronger, nastier or crazier than me, or are otherwise at a disadvantage and at risk of serious harm then I would strike at eyes and testicles.

However in a fair fight, those techniques just are not okay IMO. Training with a friendly partner it's of course out of the question. Doesn't mean you couldn't go 100% within these parameters.

If you have the advantage and are in control of your opponent (like cops or guards taking down a perp) then you can even consider using relatively gentle techniques like locks and throws. The right level of force depends on the situation.

I agree with those that say that some sparring is essential to get a feel for the pace and energy of a fight, even if you hold back the nastiest techniques you've practiced, or can't even Pak Sau because of the gloves. There are all kinds of lessons in trying to hit someone who's trying to hit you, regardless of whether it's strictly your style or not. If you don't practice this at least a little, you might find it harder than you think to even hit your opp's eye. Reminds me of one of murphy's laws of combat: if they're in range, so are you.

[Wing Chun Dummy]

well that was a reasonably agreeable post. there is the need to feel what the fight is like in a bit of pressuring sparring... so long as the sporty style doesn't rub off in a real fight.

[Liddel]

Well I won't be worried about getting attacked by you then if you're opponents are still happily sparring after u've given them you're 80 - 90% :rolleyes: .

Well thats quite a big assumption Mr dummy.



My 100% is a finger in the eye - sparring is over in a second because the opponent is blind. You can't condition your weak spots nomatter how hard u try. Training all the bruises is not realistically gonna help you much. Techniques worth training don't need to be hurtful to your training partners.

A kick to the groin is a similar move (with relation to your eye jab) that should drop MOST MEN in a fight.
However if you actually put a reasonbly skilled fighter in a box (groin cover) and try to kick him full power while sparring you will find its not as EASY as you seem to think.

And just for arguments sake - UFC 57 - Frank mir got cut right above his eye - bled all over the show and couldnt see out of one eye - subsequently he DID loose the fight - BUT he wasnt out right away, he still fought on for a bit........

George St Piere (sp?) was poked in the eye when he fought BJ Pen and he still fought out another few rounds to WIN.

I only fight to SURVIVE, not to compete - if my life was at stake and i got a eye poked it would hurt and severely put me at a disadvantage but it would not FINISH ME....

Its funny because SPARRING would give you a good measure to distinguish between your attacks that are FINISH actions and just Harrasments.

Different strokes for different folks :cool:

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good points, Lidell...

Depending upon eye pokes and groin shots to win an encounter is not a good plan.

[Wing Chun Dummy]

i couldn't disagree more. i just made a long post to continue the argument and this website lost it in some problem so i wont repeat it all. basically though, you can't replicate the awareness of the real fight in competitive sparring. groin and eyes are the best targets. don't believe me? too bad :)

[couch]

i couldn't disagree more. i just made a long post to continue the argument and this website lost it in some problem so i wont repeat it all. basically though, you can't replicate the awareness of the real fight in competitive sparring. groin and eyes are the best targets. don't believe me? too bad :)

Just to add my little bit:

We've been down this road before. This argument, etc. Round and round we go!

You say that you can't replicate what happens in a real right with sparring. Agreed. but I ain't starting any fights anytime soon. Are you? Do you go out and start fights, put yourself out there with your life on the line to fight the "real" fight?

Sparring (light and hard) is that answer to the problem. So are the drills, the chi sau, the forms. All one complete package. Can't have WC without a little from all the categories, I believe.

Best,
Kenton

[Ultimatewingchun]

Of course they're the best targets...that's not the issue.

It's getting to them that's the problem.

And without constant hard contact sparring/grappling/self defense moves against a SKILLED RESISTING opponent on a regular basis - and without a whole bunch of moves (and targeted targets) in your arsenal and game plan...

you're not believable. :cool: :p

[Liddel]

Sparring (light and hard) is that answer to the problem. So are the drills, the chi sau, the forms. All one complete package. Can't have WC without a little from all the categories, I believe.

Best,
Kenton

This is a very open minded view which i agree with 100%. Good Call. :)



you can't replicate the awareness of the real fight in competitive sparring.

Its as though you only see sparring giving one benifit when i see it as improving many elements of fighting other than an "awareness of the real fight ".

Dont get me wrong WCdummy - i do agree with this point - however this reason alone doesnt warrant dismissing sparring in training like you have mentioned IMO.

[Kapten Klutz]

I like to compare it to learning a language. Suppose you want to be able to converse freely in your new language on any subject, but you're not in the country where the language is spoken.

First you study grammar and vocabulary. Does this reproduce the awareness and feel of free conversation?

Then you create simple sentences and respond to preprogrammed questions from your teacher. Does this reproduce the awareness and feel of free conversation?

Then you train by conversing on a particular subject, say 'bicycles'. You learn the words for inner tube, handlebars and so on and have a nerdy little conversation with your fellow students. 'My bicycle is red, what color is your bicycle?' yadda yadda. Does this reproduce the awareness and feel of free conversation?

Finally you converse freely with your fellow students even though none of you has ever been 'in country'. The teacher helps you along in a controlled environment. To a native speaker you all sound like you just descended from UFOs without any feeling for slang or how people put things, but you keep at it. Does this reproduce the awareness and feel of free conversation in that foreign country?

Maybe it doesn't. But will it help you when you finally arrive in the country and try to speak freely? Yes. And the more you train it, the better you'll be.

[Wing Chun Dummy]

Just to add my little bit:

We've been down this road before. This argument, etc. Round and round we go!

You say that you can't replicate what happens in a real right with sparring. Agreed. but I ain't starting any fights anytime soon. Are you? Do you go out and start fights, put yourself out there with your life on the line to fight the "real" fight?

Sparring (light and hard) is that answer to the problem. So are the drills, the chi sau, the forms. All one complete package. Can't have WC without a little from all the categories, I believe.

Best,
Kenton

i agree with this. Round and round we go with something to agree on now ;)

[MyDrills]

WC is effective only for experienced fighter. THats why its best to practice the drills on foreign opponent to learn the variations. Thats how i do my drills.

WC practitioner without enough fight exp are more likely to lose.

[Wing Chun Dummy]

after 7 years of karate i couldn't fight at all, then after 1 year of wing chun i had an awareness of personal space and was able to guard me space and i felt confident enough to use the pak sau. i think wing chun's benefits are very quick and wing chun is very good for teaching people self defence in a very short amount of time. i'm sure you've heard that before.

[MyDrills]

after 7 years of karate i couldn't fight at all, then after 1 year of wing chun i had an awareness of personal space and was able to guard me space and i felt confident enough to use the pak sau. i think wing chun's benefits are very quick and wing chun is very good for teaching people self defence in a very short amount of time. i'm sure you've heard that before.

good point :)

[tjwingchun]

This thread reads just like my mind, going off on so many tangents, where do I begin to post a reply.

Like Victor I began some time ago, started training 1974 and teaching professionally 1983, 7days a week. I worked on the doors of Nightclubs in Newcastle UK, so I have lived and seen the 'harder' side of life. I remember when Shaun Rawcliffe joined Sifu Kwok's Association proir to his alignment with Sigung Yip Chun and can whole heartedly recommend him as an instructor.

To the 1st question 1st and the related reply's; Wing Chun in my biased viewpoint is the one of the most effective of the martial arts when dealing with the reality of fighting, several students who had been training only weeks have used it to overcome bullies simply by applying basic centreline puching, what I term as LESSON 1.

To me Wing Chun was designed to fight people who know how to fight as 3-400 years ago the Shaolin system was being taught openly so there was a need to fast track street fighting skills from the start rather than let them develop over 10-40 years.

I am of the opinion of 'NO SPARRING' but if you saw the way that our Chi Sau is sometimes trained you may say that we do. To me it is in the mindset or visualisation of how you are training and what specifically you are trying to develop from the exercise.

It is important to know how to 'ENTER' that is to close the distance, Chum Kiu (Bridging the Gap), get from no hands to one hand, then from one hand to two, to control your opponent so they do not have a viable structure to hit you while you open them up for an 'OFF LOADING' technique, ie hitting them with a full power strike.

In Chi Sau we can easily practice the first stages of this method but not the last, understanding 'off loading' is left outside Chi Sau, once you know you have got into the position you can fire the strike out relaxed so that when it hits you training partner it does not injure them, to get a feel of the real contact training of the strike is what we use the dummy and bags for.

Kicks to ankle, shin, knee and pubic bone (not the groin as it is only pain whereas breaking the pelvis has more physical effect!), striking to the eyes, neck and throat are good entry techniques to get you into range for elbows to sternum, head or throat.

It has been mentioned about the situation you are in and levels of violence is certainly an issue, from the lippy teenager and youthful drunk to the drug-crazed psycho, these require differing levels of response and it is only with experience that you can quickly make those decisions when the dynamic of a street confrontation takes place. I always say that the most difficult situation you can face is the drunken friend/relative at weddings/funerals when they are trying to hit you but you don't want to knockout your Granny!:(

I believe in the understanding of SELF that is why I teach my student how to know their personal body mechanics related to fighting the way that I do. It has taken me over 30 years to get to my level of understanding and I see it as my job to get them there faster.

As far as Tae Bo, Shaolin Do, Thai Boxing, BJJ, NHB, or any other art, though I give them my respect as I do all arts trained seriously and well, I honestly believe my Wing Chun would hold me in good stead, though to add to this I have a student who if he did Origami hold leave you in the shape of a swan, he is just that sort of guy who is a natural fighter, he did 13 years full contact Ju Jitsu and has been with me now for 5 years and becoming rather a handfull even for me lol.

This is my first real post and I look forward to more, sorry it is a bit long winded but there was a lot of things to try and cover.

Respect to all travelling to path, take care and remember the only rule in Ed Parkers fight book was "Never kick a woman in the balls!"

Keep smiling Trevor

[sir-elrik]

Its not about the art its about the fighter! thats a quote thats fit with conclusions i reached through my fair share of fights during highschooll and army (even though i never liked to fight it was something with my face,attitude that tracked all the bullies on me). Even though those fights never enclosed a life threating situation they where normal street fights with punchs and grapplings. back then i dnt knew wing chun (neither i know now im quite new in the art)

first of all try to avoid it, is not such a bad thing someone to insult you.

When you get in fight, fight; fight hard and end it as fast as possible.The longer the fight is keep going the more probable is to get hurt. You can save your ass for one or two or three punches-kicks but you can not keep doing it the whole day.

do not let the opponent to grab you if you are not stronger than him or familiar with grapplings techniques. especially your hand, they only time i was beaten up was cause the guy graped my right hand(my good hand) and i ddnt now what to do.

hit first and keep going

looking back in those fights and thinking how different things would have been if i knew wing chun i conclude that i would had cause them much more damage before even they realize what had hited them. probably their knees would hv been my first target following some punches and some elbows.

I have to point out that where i live(greece) people they dnt carry semi-automatic weapons(USA) or knifes(UK) when they are going to school. In addition some kind of honour code prohibits you for keep hiting you opponent when he is in the floor(something that in UK where i studied is not applicable).

is my first post so hi to everyone

[MyDrills]

my advise to you all fellow martial artist, master defense first so you can master offense.

you cannot master offense if you dont master your defense. this applies to all MA :) to be effective

[bcbernam777]

I am very interested in the style because I have seen the fast handmovements used, but how effective would wing chun be against someone who has had other martial arts training. I know it's a stupid question because a smart martial arts practitioner would never have to prove himself and end up in a fight anyways.

I'm just curious though: How well would Wing Chun work against a street thug? I live in the city and my area constantly has people getting beat up and robbed. Would wing chun training be the best choice for street self defense?

And I know this has probably been discussed here before, but: How would a Wing Chun practitioner go about fighting against a BBJ guy. It seems they would just have to take you off your feet and you'd be finished. These big strong BJJ guys, how would you go about them? I'm not a huge guy with big muscles, thats why I find Wing Chun so interesting...But does it really work?

Thanks. I'm not trying to start any arguements or say that WC is inferioir, I'm just curious. Could someone explain it to me?

The power in Wing Chun is through the proper execution and harmony of biomehanics, it is only effective if you can master this

[namron]

offence is the best form of defence.........................................

[tjwingchun]

offence is the best form of defence.........................................
So that is that why people call me an offensive bar steward, my defensive attitude! ;)