The Benefits of Traditional Kung Fu

[WinterPalm]

I figured I would start a thread here where people could boast, or just comment about the benefits of their training. With so much backlash against martial arts originating from China now, and since we are seeing several generations now teaching Kung Fu from non-Chinese, and many eager to shift the focus more to simplified, or cage tested methods, yet others remaining true to what they've been taught. This also comes with Buddhist principles, which are really principles and could be called Muslim or Christian. Are these dwindling? Is the same person that gives you the pieces to become a competent fighter, the same person that should be giving you lessons on self-improvement? I think so... Are martial arts so dissected now that we have pieces all over the place and no real totality, ie, you go here to strike, here to joint lock, here to condition and strengthen, here to get some morals, here for socializing??

First and foremost, I have received much physical attributes and skills from my Sifu. I state this first because it was the primary reason I decided to start training. And I also need to continually work these skills and attributes. I am in better shape than ever, more energy, and when I spar or train, I can use what I've been taught under pressure. I still have a long ways to go, but I can feel it starting.

Second, I've learned much about respect, humility, and honesty. There are times when I would dismiss something with a little white lie, but then I think that if it was Sifu would I dismiss it like such? Now I find myself being direct and more to the point and not telling those little white lies.

Third, through Kung Fu and my Sifu's Kwoon, I have made some great friends and how to listen, to teach (Somewhat!), and to handle a variety of situations.

Although I've only listed a few that come to mind, I do feel that Kung Fu is a very promising endeavour and that the improvements I've seen are countless. As I start to instruct classes I realize how darn tough it really is to teach and I start to see my own skill level, and the demands I place on my fellow students, and I realize that it is some hard work. I guess that is what Kung Fu is all about.

David

[David Jamieson]

I figured I would start a thread here where people could boast, or just comment about the benefits of their training. With so much backlash against martial arts originating from China now, and since we are seeing several generations now teaching Kung Fu from non-Chinese, and many eager to shift the focus more to simplified, or cage tested methods, yet others remaining true to what they've been taught. This also comes with Buddhist principles, which are really principles and could be called Muslim or Christian. Are these dwindling? Is the same person that gives you the pieces to become a competent fighter, the same person that should be giving you lessons on self-improvement? I think so... Are martial arts so dissected now that we have pieces all over the place and no real totality, ie, you go here to strike, here to joint lock, here to condition and strengthen, here to get some morals, here for socializing??

While it's good to have community and access to a lot of different things in your school, it is also good to keep open to the world around you and what it has to offer even some of the things that may be contrary to what you are being taught or learning. Keep the mind open, keep the eyes open and it's almost never a good thing to keep all your eggs in one basket. Ask your sifu how many teachers he had and what else in life influenced him. All kungfu is not necessarily of buddhist origin and much of the ways of focused practice on different styles under different teachers is how many sifu of now and of old have done things for centuries.

First and foremost, I have received much physical attributes and skills from my Sifu. I state this first because it was the primary reason I decided to start training. And I also need to continually work these skills and attributes. I am in better shape than ever, more energy, and when I spar or train, I can use what I've been taught under pressure. I still have a long ways to go, but I can feel it starting.

your sifu provides you with a method of training and a system of practice that when applied by you should work according to the plan. Don't sell yourself short. If you do not practice what he has to show you, then you will gain little or nothing at all. the more diligent you are and remain in your practice, the more it simply stands to reason that you will make more and more success as time passes. The sifu takes what he has learned and devises a way for you to gain from the overall practice of kungfu. The work is entirely up to you to do or not do.

Second, I've learned much about respect, humility, and honesty. There are times when I would dismiss something with a little white lie, but then I think that if it was Sifu would I dismiss it like such? Now I find myself being direct and more to the point and not telling those little white lies.

I think this is just part of growing up and taking responsibility for yourself and your actions

Third, through Kung Fu and my Sifu's Kwoon, I have made some great friends and how to listen, to teach (Somewhat!), and to handle a variety of situations.

that's good. Friends are always good. Good friends are great.

Although I've only listed a few that come to mind, I do feel that Kung Fu is a very promising endeavour and that the improvements I've seen are countless. As I start to instruct classes I realize how darn tough it really is to teach and I start to see my own skill level, and the demands I place on my fellow students, and I realize that it is some hard work. I guess that is what Kung Fu is all about.

kungfu by definition is hard work :p, it's about a lot of things. Teaching will not only help yoru younger classmates in their progress, it will help you in yours.

David

My comments are in the quote above and bolded.

[viper]

I am a tree kung fu is the water and sunlight give me some and watch me gro

Through training kung fu has allowed me to forego many desires and ego driven trips. I am calmer in control more forgiving and see the world throuhg a different perception I train to fight so I dont have to but also my health is a vast improvment I have a eight pack (yeh baby) and am extremely athletic my reflexes have improved ten fold and I kinda have a sixth sense for my surroundings an bigger aura feel but yeh an everything you said.

[PangQuan]

My teacher is a traditional Sifu. As much as possible within the legal limits of the United States anyhow.

He is the only martial art master I have had, so far. So all of my martial development thus far comes from only myself and my sifu.

The personal discipline i have gained from my practice has shown me a different side of life than i had before realized existed.

Until I began my studies, I had little direction in life, no real passion for anything. It was the same thing in and out every day. Now that is different, I have a goal. Not only do i have a goal brought on by my practice, but my practice continually makes my goal more clear, attainable, and understood.

We all practice martial art for our own reasons. (or should)

I practice not only to fight, not only to better myself morally and physically, but for the future.

The future not of martial art, but the future of our people. Of Human kind. One day I shall touch another humans life with my knowledge, and they shall do so in kind, and so on.

This is a legacy that, even though there is not an inkling of rememberance for me, it shall none the less benefit life.


This is a small attribution I have noticed Traditional Kung fu has given me.

[yenhoi]

Is the same person that gives you the pieces to become a competent fighter, the same person that should be giving you lessons on self-improvement? I think so...

why?

As someone already said, many of these "self-improvement" methods and "instruction" is really about growing up, and the people you decided to surround yourself with. Why is this type of self-improvement so important to be paired up with the martial-fighting type of self-improvement?

Developing your moral-set is your job, not your teacher's. It has nothing to do with the geographical mythical legendary location of your "art's" creation and evolution. You will find out that chinese, filipino, american, and even europeans and canadians (thats gotta be most of the world, not counting those russians) of high character have come up with very similar ways of filtering out the bad apples.

Being a "good-person" on the "correct" path of "self-improvement" has little to do with being able to kick butt, or having the dedication and [utting in the hard work it takes to merit the label of "kung-fu."

:eek:

[WinterPalm]

I think if someone gives you a skill that can be used to harm others, it is their responsibility to try and show you the proper morality that comes with such skill. This doesn't mean the are responsible for you if you mess up, just that they should show you that side of things as well.

No, you don't need to be morally fit to be good at fighting, but if you are sharing it with people, this component should be integral to the teachings. This isn't just about beating people up...

[WinterPalm]

Further, it is ultimately up to the individual how they behave. And if these lessons just come about through maturity, which I don't believe, then what does it matter if someone showing you how to kill people is also showing you how to be compassionate, generous, kind, and maybe even humble??

[ShaolinTiger00]

and many eager to shift the focus more to simplified, or cage tested methods,

Gotta love the passive-aggressive put downs from the "superior and highly skilled" TMA crowd..

- A lowly, simple, MMA man

Keep the illusions alive boys. When it's all you've got, you gotta cling to it tightly.

[yenhoi]

Nothing is wrong with pairing them. Why do they have to be paired. It seems like your saying its wrong for it to be just about beating people up. Some of the best "kung-fu" out there is ONLY about beating people up.

;)

[David Jamieson]

Further, it is ultimately up to the individual how they behave. And if these lessons just come about through maturity, which I don't believe, then what does it matter if someone showing you how to kill people is also showing you how to be compassionate, generous, kind, and maybe even humble??

Yes, it is always up to the individual to take ownership of their behaviours and actions. But what that has to do with Kungfu training I'm not sure by what you're posting here. I mean, I can see you have a belief about morality and that you appear to believe that that morality should come from your sifu. THat's fine I guess. You have to realize though that morality is not the singular point of kungfu practice and it is also a relative thing. Good / bad, Right/ wrong, I would think that at your age you would know what these things are and they they would be self evident to you. If not, then the problem may be deeper seated.

I would also add that comments about killing others, learning to kill others etc etc are a little on the edge when it comes to discussions about kungfu. Firstly, you have no idea if anything you do makes you capable of killing someone. Secondly, no one in your school to the best of my knowledge has ever killed anyone in any circumstances using that kungfu which is taught there. People in your club don't even enter full contact competitions much less practice killing arts.

Dave, I know that your teacher and probably you by proxy have a dim view of a renegade like myself, but get a little perspective and before you start getting into the quagmire of murky content, take a breather and touch wood and take a look around you. Everything that there is, is a lot to look at and try to understand. You don't need to start tripping in to hypotheticals to get benefit from practice.

[monkeyfoot]

I am a tree kung fu is the water and sunlight give me some and watch me grow

god, ive seen better quotes on the back of kit-kats.

Craig

[David Jamieson]

god, ive seen better quotes on the back of kit-kats.

Craig

there's quotes on the back of kit kat bars?

[WinterPalm]

That comment wasn't a knock on MMA or cage fighting, in fact most of the proponents of that style and form will state that it is simplified, right? I understand you are looking for something to argue about, but I'm not.

Even if we aren't engaged in killing, we still have as part of the curriculum methods that could kill someone. We say, twist the neck this way, for example, there goes some vertebra, etc. Therefore I think it is necessary to instill a focus in mortality.

I understand that I have never met you, however I base my assumptions on you by the way you conduct yourself here.

Props to the guys that answered, Kung Fu is a great practice!

[lkfmdc]

That comment wasn't a knock on MMA or cage fighting, in fact most of the proponents of that style and form will state that it is simplified, right?



Actually study some Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for a few months and get back to us...

[WinterPalm]

I study a traditional martial art. Jiujitsu is a traditional martial art. I was speaking of MMA which, for the most part, takes elements of boxing, thai boxing, wrestling, jiu jitsu. This is the most often that I've seen. I'm not saying these arts are not complex, but in this context, it is the simple movements, the high percentage movements are what it's usually referred to, that are collected together to produce an athelete to compete in MMA cage or ring fighting.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I will wager that within the realm of MMA there are more techniques than in any single style of kung fu.

[Merryprankster]

WinterPalm,

There's no backlash against CMA. There's backlash against a peculiar mentality that some people have adopted in the "traditional" martial arts world, whereby they disparage sportive arts as "less refined," and "less rich" in their traditions and worth. There's a backlash against secretiveness and unproved claims. There's a backlash against the mythology and mysticism. There is a backlash against the "Mr. Miyagi," instructor, who is all knowing and wise beyond belief (turns out they're just human, and just as noble or flawed as the rest of us).

There is a backlash against martial arts as being a BELIEF SYSTEM, rather than being a skill set. You shouldn't have to have faith in an art or ability. You should have knowledge of them. Those are two very different things.

If those things happen to be present in a BJJ person or a CMA person, most MMA types will call them on it.

MMA/BJJ/related arts are not "simplified." Like all great ideas they are simple, but that is a different thing than simplified. It also implies that there was something to "simplify," when, in fact, there wasn't. (BJJ evolved from Judo, which evolved from Jiujitsu. There is no qualitative difference between them, just as prohominids were not "simpler" versions of modern man from the perspective of life as life.)

Einstein's general theory of relativity is so simple it's stupid. The ramifications from it are staggering. (I am not making a qualitative comparison between BJJ and the General Theory. I'm just using it as an analogy to show that tremendous diversity and extraordinary results can arise from very simple concepts.)

Or, as one of my friends likes to say "It's simple, but that doesn't mean it's easy." I mean, in BJJ you're either creating space or taking it away. The details involved in ensuring those things occur the way you want them to are really quite refined.

Roy Harris, by way of example, thinks there are something along the lines of 17 separate things you need to get right to do a triangle choke correctly. That doesn't sound terribly simplified to me.

[Sifu Darkfist]

Gotta love the passive-aggressive put downs from the "superior and highly skilled" TMA crowd..

- A lowly, simple, MMA man

Keep the illusions alive boys. When it's all you've got, you gotta cling to it tightly.

I for one do not put cage fighters down and i am very traditional as well as practical. You see what you guys are doing is ancient and very much in line with tcma whether or not you want to admit it. It is faulty on the part of the TCMA to not admit its down and dirty roots of hand to hand combat that in many ways never resmebles the gentlmanly art form taught in forms.

HOWEVER THAT SAID, it is also clear to me after years of both fighting and forms thatthe natural improvements to the bodies movement i.e. dynamic energy, raw power, speed, and fluidity are encapsulated in those forms and it takes perserverence on the part of the MARTIAL ARTIST no matter what ridiculous modifyier they choose to use.

You see the martial arts are alot like racism. Those that wish to separate themselves or hold themselves above martial arts with a certain claim to fame style or modifyer miss the opportunity to learn from other martial artists.

Remember alot of it was born out of ethnocentrism/ racism/ nationalism all incredibly self-destructive forces created by man.

It wouuld serve us all better to recognize all as martial artists (that is all that truly practice and dont just front) including soldiers, bouncers, bodygaurds, competition fighters, form experts, etc. I for one welcome all pratictioners to journey with me and so has my Master Yang Xaio Dong

On a lighter note Good Lord in heaven thanks for getting me through another batch of finals!!! i feel for all you guys that go through college young and not ancient like me
James:)

[viper]

monkeyfoot you and i are nearly the same age except im born in march how long u trained in wing chun for pm me if u dont want to say on here since its undisclosed in ur profile. Oh yeah its not a quote its a statement corny pherhaps but it is tru. Never thought there was another youngen on this forum ha. Sorry to side track a little guys.

[David Jamieson]

I understand that I have never met you, however I base my assumptions on you by the way you conduct yourself here.

Fair enough. But then, I am no friend of your sifu anymore for reasons that have nothing to do with you. So as you don't know me, haven't met me and furthermore have little idea of where I'm coming from, then it is only reasonable to see that perhaps your support for your sifu shouldn't involve comments about myself or what practice I do now etc etc.

Understand that as much as your sifu may feel I offended him, he has equally and as succinctly offended me. I take responsibility of my actions and inactions. We do not and likely will not see eye to eye on a lot of matters that deal with the 7 years I spent at his school.

I maintain a civil tongue about your sifu unless provoked or goaded into argument with him or one of his students such as you.

So, just know that.

[SPJ]

The benefits---

Your basic skills and practice are the roots.

The forms are the principles and trunks.

When you spar or enter a comp, they are branches and leaves. Or they are derivatives from the trunk or your learning and practicing.

One may say the branches and leaves are all that is there, important or one can see.

One may also say without trunk or roots, nothing will last.

So the question is that what do you see?

:D

[WinterPalm]

DJ-
I think everybody is tired of this. You came on and posted your thoughts as to how I feel about you. I told you I based my judgement not on anyone else's opinion but my own. You are still looking for arguments... In fact, any time I post a thread, or quite often even just a post, you are there ready to argue and set me straight. The only time I have brought anything up is when you intentionally or 'passive aggressively' put down my Sifu or school. I think any reasonably honorable person would defend that.
Let it go and try answering the thread, or maybe even being a bit thankful, because, after all, you still have a website of yourself performing some sets my Sifu taught you, but please, there is nothing to be said between us so leave me alone.

[WinterPalm]

I still feel that CMA offer more than MMA training does. I don't doubt their abilities which are displayed, but I do doubt the validity of the mentality of aggression and harming others for money, pride, ego, or even just competition. There's nothing wrong with competition, but I'm sure it serves a purpose and soon you're all about hurting people. That should be a last resort.
Where is all the positivity going? Doesn't anyone try and learn the values and principles along with the physical?

[ShaolinTiger00]

I still feel that CMA offer more than MMA training does. I don't doubt their abilities which are displayed, but I do doubt the validity of the mentality of aggression and harming others for money, pride, ego, or even just competition. There's nothing wrong with competition, but I'm sure it serves a purpose and soon you're all about hurting people. That should be a last resort.
Where is all the positivity going? Doesn't anyone try and learn the values and principles along with the physical?


Are you serious? It's hard to tell on the internet..


but just in case you're not kidding...


the positive? The truth is that you have absolutely no idea how we train in MMA, you do not understand the fellowship, the teamwork, the comraderie and the fmaily atmosphere that is provided in a circle of people who want to be the best at what they do but also want everyone to go home safe so that they can fight again tomorrow.

positive? I train disadvantaged kids at my gym in partnership with Big Bros & Sisters. I mentor kids who have issues with discipline and violence and turn their focus into something positive and constructive.

There is no moral or value in CMA that cannot be provided in MMA.

and regarding violence.. if I thought you had a clue I wouldn't even mention this but since you don't, I'll proceed and hopefully inform a lurker.

One of the best things about MMA is that thru positional domination both in the clinch and on the ground you have a myriad of options regarding how much force or violence you need to apply in the situation.

The same principles that work in dealing with the big cousin that likes to rough you up in the backyard work when you need to take the keys off drunk uncle teddy or stop a mentally ill person from hurting himself or saving yourself from an ambush tackle..

Stop talking about things that you don't know about. You can't help but look ignorant.

[Citong Shifu]

ShaolinTiger00
Tribal Elder Join Date: Jan 1970
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,883

I will wager that within the realm of MMA there are more techniques than in any single style of kung fu.
__________________
"Shaolin Tiger has my respect for his willingness to fight. Good job Shaolin Tiger. You are a kung fu hero. " -Ralek


I can honestly say that it's more beneficial to know one technique with twenty variations over twenty techniques for twenty different attacks??????????


Ron

[WinterPalm]

My post was in regards to fighting for money or belts or whatever. I don't doubt but hey, now it sounds like you're running a great school with some ideals in it. Funny, I thought that wasn't supposed to be in a martial arts school? I can respect that there are different types of martial arts, but this thread was about Traditional Kung Fu. So many people post here who do not practice kung fu, I don't understand.
So you are basically just practicing another martial art. Fine, I pracitice a different one from you, we both engage in training to fight, and we both support positivity.
ShaolinTiger, what you are doing is in the spirit of kung fu, good job. You could have just come out and said that in the first place.

I think it is appropriate to deal with delinquincy in a positive manner. My Sifu has taken in students that were criminals or had criminal pasts and try to help them much like you talk about. Part of the training is a focus towards the positive and a bettering of ourselves and helping others to turn from negative lifestyles, if they want to.

I think the problem here is that too much generalization seems to be happening. I can't help but generalize about MMA as cage fighting, and others cannot help but generalize CMA as mall strip training. People have to see that legitimate kung fu doesn't have to be displayed in the cage, and obviously many people are using MMA as a traditional art with community and positive focuses.

I can see why the sportive element appeals to many, and I can also see why the traditional element appeals to others. Different personalities and approaches, but we still get that comraderie and teamwork.

[Merryprankster]

Funny, I thought that wasn't supposed to be in a martial arts school?

Uh, no, that's not what we said. What we said was that there is nothing inherent in martial arts that cultivates that.

Martial arts are about fighting. Being a good person is about being a good person. You can be a great martial artist and a completely bad person. We don't look to MA to specifically develop positive ethical and moral qualities. You CAN, but you can also develop a similar level of those qualities by dedicating yourself to the practice of chess. Perserverance, hard work, focus, dedication - all are traits developed in many other venues.

My instructors do not automatically get my respect as people, beyond the basic level of respect I offer all people I meet. They have to earn it like everybody else, just like I expect to earn theirs. They don't get it by dint of their position. Further, I don't look to my instructors for spiritual guidance and moral development. That's not why I'm there. Nothing irks me more at class than going to class and listening to "Life according to sifu." Fortunately, I have had to deal with very little of that.



So many people post here who do not practice kung fu, I don't understand.


It's a public forum. Deal with it.

[yenhoi]

Kung-fu is not chinese, and it has nothin to do with these random "traditional" values and what not. Skill gained through hard work is still skill, this includes lockpicking, mugging, diversion, and many other skills and abilitys that fall past the ideas of "good people."

:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

DJ-
I think everybody is tired of this. You came on and posted your thoughts as to how I feel about you. I told you I based my judgement not on anyone else's opinion but my own. You are still looking for arguments... In fact, any time I post a thread, or quite often even just a post, you are there ready to argue and set me straight. The only time I have brought anything up is when you intentionally or 'passive aggressively' put down my Sifu or school. I think any reasonably honorable person would defend that.
Let it go and try answering the thread, or maybe even being a bit thankful, because, after all, you still have a website of yourself performing some sets my Sifu taught you, but please, there is nothing to be said between us so leave me alone.

lol. yep, there's bad blood between me and wes. What can I say. And it's become more tainted with time. But surely, you musn't think that in a conflict that only one side is the problem.

You've made many comments abouyt me across several forums and in many threads that were simply not yours to make.

So don't be giving me the "everyone's tired, leave me alone crap".

Live with it.

Just so you know, just because I am the most vocal in my detraction of wes and his club, doesn't mean I'm the only one who thinks of him and his stuff in that light.



So, if you can't take it, then stop posting "my head is up my sifu's ass because his sh1t is the best". It isn't and you'll get it one day.

[WinterPalm]

I am free to make my own opinions. I consider myself lucky to be under the guidance of my Sifu and learning a great art from him. I am at my school to learn an art that I see and feel has very high potential and value. Most who find this sort of thing are lucky to have it, some cannot take it, some cannot appreciate it, but I also understand that some find it elsewhere.


Merrprankster, I feel the same way about respect. When I joined my school I respected my Sifu based on his position, that alone. When I began lessons and started to get to know him and his skill, then that level of respect grew considerably. I think you might give respect to those that are your teachers automatically, after all you are coming there to learn from them as a student, and with time you come to respect them as people and for their high level of skill. Do you not agree with that?

[SPJ]

There are always do's and don't's in every style or any MA.

The trick is to find the balance.

If you hit the pad too hard for too long, you will injure or even cripple your self.

some people without shifting the weight right or putting too much weight on the moving knee develop "Tai Chi knee" injury.

some people do stamping feet too hard on hard surface, and destroy their knees and injure hindbrain.

The thing is that the skills and physically ability are gained or built up over time. Or a little progress at a time.

So if you say benefits, that would be to know the limits and how to advance safely and gradually or know when to quit for now.

:D

[Gold Horse Dragon]

lol. yep, there's bad blood between me and wes. What can I say. And it's become more tainted with time. But surely, you musn't think that in a conflict that only one side is the problem.

You've made many comments abouyt me across several forums and in many threads that were simply not yours to make.

So don't be giving me the "everyone's tired, leave me alone crap".

Live with it.

Just so you know, just because I am the most vocal in my detraction of wes and his club, doesn't mean I'm the only one who thinks of him and his stuff in that light.



So, if you can't take it, then stop posting "my head is up my sifu's ass because his sh1t is the best". It isn't and you'll get it one day.Hmm...

Happened to be doing some surfing and noticed this post from DJ aka Kung Lek about myself. Too bad this has to go on again, but Thought this needed a response (again):

David, if you don’t think what I do is good, then why do you still have vids on your site of you doing the Toisan Black Tiger sets I taught you? Why do you post links to these Toisan Black Tiger vids across boards, if you believe what I do is not good? Why do you not have sets on your site of yourself doing ANYTHING else but what I taught you?

If you truly believe what you claim (what I do and what you learned from me as being no good)…stop doing it…all of it…and move on to what ever. In fact, I challenge you to wipe everything I taught you from your mind and to stop practising all I taught you…forget it all…do something else. There are many who have gained benefit from what I teach.

Your words and actions are contradictory…one time this, next time that and then third time back to this…and on, and on and on…For example, in one of your posts above, you said you will have a civil tongue with regard to myself, then you make an uncivil post, as in the quote above, when I had not even said anything to you to precipitate it and nor did Winterpalm.

David, put your anger in your pocket, no one is interested in it or your abusive ways.

I told you before David, I do not hate you. You say you have bad blood towards me…well you are the one who has to live like that.

As far as your statement: “Just so you know, just because I am the most vocal in my detraction of wes and his club, doesn't mean I'm the only one who thinks of him and his stuff in that light”.

Well, your detractions are part of your pattern of contradictory statements…for example, below is an excerpt from a post of yours from not too long ago (2004)indicating just the opposite and I could post several other examples of contradictory statements on your part.... " the Black Tiger style that sifu Wes teaches is really high caliber Kungfu. Sifu Wes has had his detractors...But, if we hit the books and look at all the things on the table, it is easy to say that this Kungfu is is good strong southern sil lum Kungfu period"... link http://hungkuennet.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~2691.asp


Happily, I can say I have made many more good friends than enemies, but one does not move through this world without making some enemies…I can live with the latter, sonny boy.

Having said that, I can say that the only detractors I have had are you and a few people (on forums) who are associated with you in some way. In all my years of teaching in this city, I have never heard any detractions about me and no one has come to me in person face to face to tell me, as you say above, "...his sh1t is the best. It isn't and you'll get it one day"....now I wonder why it is David, that no one has told me this to my face...hmm...

Now, please, stop all this nastiness.

With all this misplaced anger in you…Have as Merry a Christmas as you can. If you are in contact with your brother Chris, wish him a most happy and joyful Christmas from myself and Simo…we have many good memories from those times. Also, wish your wife Josie, your son Alex, and your parents, a joyful and Merry Christmas.

SWC

[David Jamieson]

Hmm...

Happened to be doing some surfing and noticed this post from DJ aka Kung Lek about myself. Too bad this has to go on again, but Thought this needed a response (again):

David, if you don’t think what I do is good, then why do you still have vids on your site of you doing the Toisan Black Tiger sets I taught you? Why do you post links to these Toisan Black Tiger vids across boards, if you believe what I do is not good? Why do you not have sets on your site of yourself doing ANYTHING else but what I taught you?

If you truly believe what you claim (what I do and what you learned from me as being no good)…stop doing it…all of it…and move on to what ever. In fact, I challenge you to wipe everything I taught you from your mind and to stop practising all I taught you…forget it all…do something else. There are many who have gained benefit from what I teach.

Your words and actions are contradictory…one time this, next time that and then third time back to this…and on, and on and on…For example, in one of your posts above, you said you will have a civil tongue with regard to myself, then you make an uncivil post, as in the quote above, when I had not even said anything to you to precipitate it and nor did Winterpalm.

David, put your anger in your pocket, no one is interested in it or your abusive ways.

I told you before David, I do not hate you. You say you have bad blood towards me…well you are the one who has to live like that.

As far as your statement: “Just so you know, just because I am the most vocal in my detraction of wes and his club, doesn't mean I'm the only one who thinks of him and his stuff in that light”.

Well, your detractions are part of your pattern of contradictory statements…for example, below is an excerpt from a post of yours from not too long ago (2004)indicating just the opposite and I could post several other examples of contradictory statements on your part.... " the Black Tiger style that sifu Wes teaches is really high caliber Kungfu. Sifu Wes has had his detractors...But, if we hit the books and look at all the things on the table, it is easy to say that this Kungfu is is good strong southern sil lum Kungfu period"... link http://hungkuennet.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~2691.asp


Happily, I can say I have made many more good friends than enemies, but one does not move through this world without making some enemies…I can live with the latter, sonny boy.

Having said that, I can say that the only detractors I have had are you and a few people (on forums) who are associated with you in some way. In all my years of teaching in this city, I have never heard any detractions about me and no one has come to me in person face to face to tell me, as you say above, "...his sh1t is the best. It isn't and you'll get it one day"....now I wonder why it is David, that no one has told me this to my face...hmm...

Now, please, stop all this nastiness.

With all this misplaced anger in you…Have as Merry a Christmas as you can. If you are in contact with your brother Chris, wish him a most happy and joyful Christmas from myself and Simo…we have many good memories from those times. Also, wish your wife Josie, your son Alex, and your parents, a joyful and Merry Christmas.

SWC


Toisan black tiger? what's that? How many transformations in your kungfu before you'll call it what it is?

Wes, the difference between you and me is that I come across as me. And you come across as not you. You tell me to pocket my anger, but you know what, I'm angry and I'd rather express it than sit on it and let it boil down. You should try it. It feels much better to get that bad stuff out and to place it where it belongs.

Sorry I have no shallow holiday wishes for you, or superficial wisdom to help you feel better about what an ass you've been to me. As time has passed, I've had a chance to look at this and sort it.

We're not going to see eye to eye, your kungfu is ok, I've taken of it what is useful and dropped the rest. You say you tire of this and yet here you are, rebutting, interjecting, sticking up for your mini me. lol

Do you honestly think people have the same opinions as time passes and the situation changes? How did you view the world as a boy? You see it the same way as a man? What about later when logic and rationale dictated that you put down some views and pick up others.

Also, yin and yang are in all things. You can be nice as I can and I am certain that you can equally be not a very good person, as is the case with everyone.

Thanks for setting my mind straight on this. You're predictable in that way.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Well, the wishes were genuine, not shallow...nothing else left to be said about that.
Any of my students on this forum can attest that what I represent here, both pos and neg is truely me...
And who exactly are you now...one time this view, then turn 180 degrees with the opposite, then back to the first. Sure, everyone sometimes (and sometimes not) change their views overtime, but you swing so widely in a short space to time. I have no idea of who you are now...certainly not the person I use to know. The only thing I do know from your posts is that you are angry at the world, take it out undeservedly on others and every once in awhile make some reasonable and pleasant posts.

Transformations? The style comes from the area of Toisan, hence the term Toisan BT, same as Gene coining the term Canton Hung Gar to represent it in comparison to other regions. Toisan Black Tiger is a Hung Fist system, one amoung the many Hung Fist systems.
You are just a very angry person for whatever reason and your arguements shallow. The sets on your site are the same as I taught you...so I do not know what you have dropped, but it does not matter to me at this point whether you have dropped stuff or not.

Treated you like an ass? So you consider free private lessons, acupuncture treatment, herbal treatment, dit da jow, meals, gifts, etc, treating you bad in some way? Well, I do not understand that at all.

Yes, your personal agenda does become tiresome...but that does not mean I will not be rebuting your statements when it concerns me, the system or kwoon or what I consider misleading or inaccurate info.

[David Jamieson]

Well, the wishes were genuine, not shallow...nothing else left to be said about that.
Any of my students on this forum can attest that what I represent here, both pos and neg is truely me...
And who exactly are you now...one time this view, then turn 180 degrees with the opposite, then back to the first. Sure, everyone sometimes (and sometimes not) change their views overtime, but you swing so widely in a short space to time. I have no idea of who you are now...certainly not the person I use to know. The only thing I do know from your posts is that you are angry at the world, take it out undeservedly on others and every once in awhile make some reasonable and pleasant posts.

Transformations? The style comes from the area of Toisan, hence the term Toisan BT, same as Gene coining the term Canton Hung Gar to represent it in comparison to other regions. Toisan Black Tiger is a Hung Fist system, one amoung the many Hung Fist systems.
You are just a very angry person for whatever reason and your arguements shallow. The sets on your site are the same as I taught you...so I do not know what you have dropped, but it does not matter to me at this point whether you have dropped stuff or not.

Treated you like an ass? So you consider free private lessons, acupuncture treatment, herbal treatment, dit da jow, meals, gifts, etc, treating you bad in some way? Well, I do not understand that at all.

Yes, your personal agenda does become tiresome...but that does not mean I will not be rebuting your statements when it concerns me, the system or kwoon or what I consider misleading or inaccurate info.

Wes, you know as well as I do that there was a control issue between you and me. You wanted control and I would not be told what to do by the likes of you or anyone. as far as teaching learning, that was fine until we found out more about each other personality wise.

In short , we do not jibe and in the end I was not the student you wanted so you threw me away like yesterdays news instead of reforming your own thoughts on what it means to be a human being. I'm willing to bet that even to this day, you will not develop a balanced relationship with a student the recognizes them as anything more than 'your student' and underling, a virtual nobody if not for yoiu and your oh so wise ways. Gimme a break.

as for transformations, you know I was with you in the early days in fact the new beginnings after you drop the fei lung connection and started the shaolin west thing.

You also know that those sets on my site are not exactly what you've shown me, or for that matter what rob showed me. There are some significant differences in them, but that's here nor there. At least I have the decency to acknowledge where the base information comes from. As opposed to you and your lists of 'family'.:rolleyes: which is...well kinda sorry looking.

The student you have on this forum dave S is clearly just the kind of student you enjoy having. Will believe everything you say, has no knowledge of the past and doesn't care about it. He wants to be at your feet for whatever reason. Probably the lack of a stable father figure in his life and you fill that void. You have to be careful with these kinds of minds and be careful to not wound them. But again, I don't fully know and am just surmising.

As for treating me like an ass, you know d@mn well what I'm speaking of and it had nothing to do with the nature of our relationship as exchanging material things, allowing you to use me for clinical understanding and so on. I think we've each bought each other a meal or two and I've certainly paid you consistently for my lessons, put in huge effort in your school with everything from taking classes, making signs, getting you on the web, doing your brochures, bringing in students, drumming up interest, promoting your school, lion dancing etc etc. I think we're even at the very least on that front. Don't you? lol.

Anyway, I have no agenda, but I do think some of the things dave s has to say on these forums just reeks of bogusness and I will point that out to anyone and not just your students.

In the meantime, you and I may never settle on what was. It doesn't matter, but the forums here are for discourse and when I see a post that indicates someones head is too far up the ass of another, I'll comment on it as I have done before. That's the nature of these places afterall.

It ain't all sunshinme and lollypops. :p

[WinterPalm]

I have nothing to say that is bogus to me. I understand that people will disagree, however, I am always posting from what I believe. I have something to believe in, myself, and those around me. Sifu and Simo are very generous people that educate, teach, and help their students out. Obviously you cannot see this and that is unfortunate. It is also unfortunate that you speak so loud and on a large forum for everybody to hear. It gives an opinion that comes from one voice and one voice alone, by itself. There are quite a few more that have a different opinions but don't post here, or would let you rattle your cage and ignore it. Sifu and Simo have helped and taught many and it is sad to see such garbage coming from one such as yourself whom they tried to help.

I would hope that Sifu enjoys having me for a student. I certainly enjoy having him as a Sifu as I enjoy having Simo there to uplift my spirits.

And your surmises are ridiculous, are you trying to make me lower myself to your ridiculous level of childish online grand master converse? My father has always been here for me, anytime I've needed him, he has been there. I am not looking for a fatherly figure in my Sifu nor a motherly figure in my Simo.

I can tolerate what you write on these forums, and I usually ignore it, but when you address me personally or make assumptions about what I think, or outlandish claims and nonsense about the Kung Fu I practice and that my Sifu teaches, that is another story.

As to the sets on your site...
You need to practice Da Kune WAY more. Your shoulders are very tense and constantly rising up, your movements go beyond what is necessary or kinesological efficent, your stances are way too high and narrow. Remember that silly ART OF KUNG FU or whatever that you posted awhile back, work on using less rings so that your shoulders don't rise up so high, and again, work on the stances, basics, basics, basics, Jamieson! You also need to chamber the kick after you execute it. Also, that scraping on the ground, you shouldn't hear it!:) Tiger Stealth shifting 101...SO if your new made up way of training means you've mastered the online forum art and neglected your actual kung fu, then good job.

It's not my position to make others feel bad about how their kung fu is wrong, because I know that mine is far from perfect and Sifu certainly gives me corrections, but you get this special lesson. So other than those few things, you're still imitating Toisan Black Tiger and should practice a lot more before you post videos on the internet.

I certainly hope your new teachers come on here and see who you post as and how you treat others. You should have learned these basic socialization skills in kindergarden...:rolleyes:

And do you step on your mother and father as well? How about your family? I can say that I practice love and peace, and I find myself surrounded by it, I hope you can do the same one day when you grow up. Your circus has gone on long enough.

I apologize to Sifu for this as it is not who I am but is something that needed to be said.

[SevenStar]

I still feel that CMA offer more than MMA training does. I don't doubt their abilities which are displayed, but I do doubt the validity of the mentality of aggression and harming others for money, pride, ego, or even just competition. There's nothing wrong with competition, but I'm sure it serves a purpose and soon you're all about hurting people. That should be a last resort.
Where is all the positivity going? Doesn't anyone try and learn the values and principles along with the physical?

values and principles? I have always failed to understand why people feel this should be part of MA... I even felt this way when I trained TMA. I can get philosophy from books. I can develop my spirituality in church. I train MARTIAL arts for the reason that the name implies - they are martial. Positivity is everywhere - tma doesn't have a patent on it. Through mma training and competition, you develop a camaraderie that you can't develop anywhere else. We recently gave a demo for some "inner city youth" and have been asked back to work with them. We are also now being asked to do demos around the city. All of this is positivity.

Competition DOES serve a purpose and it goes well beyond merely hurting people. You are developing yourself and continually testing yourself. there is a certain positivity in that as well.

[IronSpine]

I thought that this thread was intended to be a discussion of the benefits of TCMA training?

I can no longer observe without posting. In terms of the original intent of the thread let me say that I have enjoyed the following benefits from my TCMA training:

1. Improved health and conditioning including weight loss etc.
2. I've gained some self defense and Kung Fu abilities (with much much more to learn)
3. My Spirit has greatly improved
4. I feel more confident and empowered in my daily non martial art life
(this has helped me with things like quitting smoking and training through injuries)
5. Improved respect for others including my family, friends, co-workers, and my Sifu and Simo
6. I have learned lessons in morality...yes morality from a Kung Fu school imagine that?
7. An increased knowledge of Martial arts.

In terms of the 'other' portions of this thread I would just like to say that I would consider myself to be a mature, educated, free thinking person, and a good judge of character (after many years of business and personal dealings)...and I happen to have a fantastic strong Father figure.

I am not under the spell of some mysterious and powerful svengali. I happen to be fortunate enough to be able to willingly participate in a traditional Chinese martial arts class from which I have received many benefits.

Including the ability to discuss the outside world, other styles (MMA, Wing Chun etc. etc.), and even question the style that I am lucky enough to be taught.

I have made my share of Faux pas and I have even been able to disagree with Sifu and Simo, yet I am still welcome back in the Kwoon and continue to be taught. How can that be? Simple, the school is led by a caring, gentle, and generous man and his wife who I happen to call Sifu and Simo out of
respect...one of the most important benefits that I have garnered from TCMA training.

It’s not all roses on the internet, that is a given. It is far too easy for people to toss out words from behind the curtain of a keyboard. I started reading these threads hoping that they would be a haven from the usual internet nonsense. Being martial arts oriented I would hope that one could have an intelligent discourse here with disciplined individuals,
Apparently not.

Perhaps more people should study TCMA?

[WinterPalm]

Sevenstar, I agree that competition does serve a positive purpose for the reasons you've listed. My argument is against those that think that only cage or ring tested methods are valid. And I think you would use a little morality in your teaching if you were teaching someone that was going to use the skills to go and hurt somebody for the wrong reasons. Just like you would teach others that using this skill for ill is wrong. IT seems some here practice MMA with some morality and principles, and others do not. Fine, I am sure there are many TCMA schools that do not as well. Fine, but I think it adds to an art and the experience.

[SPJ]

The benefits:

Over time, it will be that we do Kung Fu practice so that we do not get "rusted".

If lack of practice, we will get rusty so to speak.

:)

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Wes, you know as well as I do that there was a control issue between you and me. You wanted control and I would not be told what to do by the likes of you or anyone. as far as teaching learning, that was fine until we found out more about each other personality wise.

In short , we do not jibe and in the end I was not the student you wanted so you threw me away like yesterdays news instead of reforming your own thoughts on what it means to be a human being. I'm willing to bet that even to this day, you will not develop a balanced relationship with a student the recognizes them as anything more than 'your student' and underling, a virtual nobody if not for yoiu and your oh so wise ways. Gimme a break.

as for transformations, you know I was with you in the early days in fact the new beginnings after you drop the fei lung connection and started the shaolin west thing.

You also know that those sets on my site are not exactly what you've shown me, or for that matter what rob showed me. There are some significant differences in them, but that's here nor there. At least I have the decency to acknowledge where the base information comes from. As opposed to you and your lists of 'family'.:rolleyes: which is...well kinda sorry looking.

The student you have on this forum dave S is clearly just the kind of student you enjoy having. Will believe everything you say, has no knowledge of the past and doesn't care about it. He wants to be at your feet for whatever reason. Probably the lack of a stable father figure in his life and you fill that void. You have to be careful with these kinds of minds and be careful to not wound them. But again, I don't fully know and am just surmising.

As for treating me like an ass, you know d@mn well what I'm speaking of and it had nothing to do with the nature of our relationship as exchanging material things, allowing you to use me for clinical understanding and so on. I think we've each bought each other a meal or two and I've certainly paid you consistently for my lessons, put in huge effort in your school with everything from taking classes, making signs, getting you on the web, doing your brochures, bringing in students, drumming up interest, promoting your school, lion dancing etc etc. I think we're even at the very least on that front. Don't you? lol.

Anyway, I have no agenda, but I do think some of the things dave s has to say on these forums just reeks of bogusness and I will point that out to anyone and not just your students.

In the meantime, you and I may never settle on what was. It doesn't matter, but the forums here are for discourse and when I see a post that indicates someones head is too far up the ass of another, I'll comment on it as I have done before. That's the nature of these places afterall.

It ain't all sunshinme and lollypops. :p

I do not seek control over anyone but myself. How can anyone control another, unless it is in some form of institution. I do apply control though in such areas of my profession where I deal with offenders on probation and where they are required to meet court mandated conditions...but then you already know about that, right.
Like any Sifu, I have certain standards to be followed if a person wants to learn from me, these are courtesy, not being abusive, hopefully some caring for others, support and not misusing what I teach. Standards are a part of any group of people from a family to any organization. If a member cannot abide by the standards of a club, then they will cease to be a member of that club. You were a member up until you began making disparaging remarks on various forms about the art I teach, myself and now other members of the Kwoon. I gave you numerous chances and you choose the path such as you now exhibit in these posts. As far as the teaching/learning model, you in the last two years at the kwoon and after a mere 5 years of being in the Kwoon, began to show signs that you though you knew better about the art than your Sifu (who mastered the art and with over 30 years experience). As a result, you no longer absorbed the teachings, for example I said many times to you “in sparring, do not stand there and take shots, you do not have to defend that little bit of turf you are on, be mobile, evasive, do not use brute force, but instead use skill or you will take punishment in the form of being hit hard during sparring…and you were!” – you would not listen. What is it to me if you do not want the lessons? Not my loss but yours. I cannot force someone to learn.
Students have their own areas of expertise and wisdom, I have mine, we share when required, but they are there to learn what I have to offer. When needed, they share their areas of expertise with me...
There is that word again…transformation. Websters Dictionary defines transform(ation) as; 1: to change in structure, appearance or character. So I do not see what relevance changing the name of a school has to that word. You are grasping at straws. The school principles remained the same, the teaching remained the same, hence no transformation. Anyway, changing the name of a club has no relevance whatsoever, unlike if a family member such as a son or daughter changes their surname, which has great relevance.

The Toisan Black Tiger sets in the vids you made which are on your site are portioned to not take up to much bandwidth and/or to fit with space restraints in the performance area or to not show the set in its entirety. So, in some sets, you show a section of the set, miss another and then show another. However, each and every section you show of any set is what I taught you. So your statement that the sets are “not exactly what you’ve shown me” is not accurate, nor true. In viewing these sets recently performed by yourself, I have observed that your performance of them has degraded somewhat over the years. Again, if you do not like what I taught, do not think it is good, then wipe it all from your mind and do something else.

Family…it appears you do not know the true concept of the word. There are numerous definitions in the dictionary of the word, one being; a group of related persons or things having common characteristics. Hence, as used in my kwoon, it means; a family of students, a family of Black Sashes etc. As well, traditionally the hierarchy in the kwoon is based on Confucian and familial concepts, but I use it as stated above. Yes, sorry looking for you, because you are not on it.

Yes, I like to have true and supportive students such as Winterpalm. What Sifu would not!? It is a heck of a lot better than having one as such as you yourself an how you now present. Who are you to tell Winterpalm what type of relationship he has with his father. Rather, look at your own relationship with your own father.

Treating you like an ass!? You are acting like an ass in these posts of yours, but I have not treated you like one…perhaps I am being too civil with the likes of you though.

You allowing me to use you for clinical understanding!?...what an dumb statement that is sonny boy. I completed my clinical training back in 80/81. You came to my house, barely able to walk after injuring your back in a Lion Dance performance. I gave you two treatments and you were up and around.
Giving a treatment is not so much about something material. It is about having compassion for another human being, one who is a student and wanting to alleviate their suffering.
Having a student over for a meal or out to lunch is not about the cost of the food, it is about sharing of nutrition, heart and spirit.
Yes you did do a number of services...often not alone but in tandem with me and do not forget, Simo and I did a heck of a lot for you. “Even”…it is not about being ‘even’….where has your understanding of spiritual gone?…or perhaps you were just faking it before.

You certainly have an agenda…one mostly of negativity, destruction, half truths, lies.

You on the whole, do not base your opinions on facts...which just makes you ...well, I will just say that.
It is up to you if you want to go on deluding yourself…it is your life, your mind and your spirit.

Well, thats enough with this. Tomorrow is Christmas Eve.

[lkfmdc]

I do not seek control over hampsters, they just run the wheel no matter what you do, unless you drug them, and that is against the Tao

I do apply control though various leather devices, when I deal with sexual deviants who come to my house for "kinky Mondays", they are required to wear lacy under things

Like any Sifu, I have certain standards. Bone is for the dog, meat is for the man. Standards are a part of any group of people, my standards are the bigger the cusion, the better the pushing. My member cannont abide by any other standards

Siful Able has been a bad monkey and I gave him numerous chances to chose the correct path. He made the wrong turn and ended up at Pismo Beach

The hampsters would not listen. What is it to me if hampsters do not want the carrots? Not my loss but theirs

There is that word again…lubricant. Websters Dictionary defines lubricat(ation) as; well, I'm sure you all know

Well, thats enough with this. Tomorrow is Christmas Eve. Why the heck am I reading this dumb thread anyway? :confused:

[Reggie1]

I don't doubt their abilities which are displayed, but I do doubt the validity of the mentality of aggression and harming others for money, pride, ego, or even just competition
I thought both of these quotes were interesting. I've recently switched from a TCMA to an "MMA" (I guess you can call it that) school. There is less ego and pride at my MMA school than at the TCMA school I went to (not that there was a lot of ego at my CMA school). There is just as much of a feeling of brotherhood in both schools. Nobody in the MMA school is doing this for the money. Yes, people do compete, but it's more to test their skills and because they love to it than it is to pump up their egos. In fact, the instructor is big on making sure people check their ego at the door. If not, they answer to him.


IT seems some here practice MMA with some morality and principles, and others do not.What do you consider to be "MMA morality and principles"? We all care about our training partners and try not to injure each other.

[David Jamieson]

I do not seek control over anyone but myself. How can anyone control another, unless it is in some form of institution. I do apply control though in such areas of my profession where I deal with offenders on probation and where they are required to meet court mandated conditions...but then you already know about that, right.
Like any Sifu, I have certain standards to be followed if a person wants to learn from me, these are courtesy, not being abusive, hopefully some caring for others, support and not misusing what I teach. Standards are a part of any group of people from a family to any organization. If a member cannot abide by the standards of a club, then they will cease to be a member of that club. You were a member up until you began making disparaging remarks on various forms about the art I teach, myself and now other members of the Kwoon. I gave you numerous chances and you choose the path such as you now exhibit in these posts. As far as the teaching/learning model, you in the last two years at the kwoon and after a mere 5 years of being in the Kwoon, began to show signs that you though you knew better about the art than your Sifu (who mastered the art and with over 30 years experience). As a result, you no longer absorbed the teachings, for example I said many times to you “in sparring, do not stand there and take shots, you do not have to defend that little bit of turf you are on, be mobile, evasive, do not use brute force, but instead use skill or you will take punishment in the form of being hit hard during sparring…and you were!” – you would not listen. What is it to me if you do not want the lessons? Not my loss but yours. I cannot force someone to learn.
Students have their own areas of expertise and wisdom, I have mine, we share when required, but they are there to learn what I have to offer. When needed, they share their areas of expertise with me...
There is that word again…transformation. Websters Dictionary defines transform(ation) as; 1: to change in structure, appearance or character. So I do not see what relevance changing the name of a school has to that word. You are grasping at straws. The school principles remained the same, the teaching remained the same, hence no transformation. Anyway, changing the name of a club has no relevance whatsoever, unlike if a family member such as a son or daughter changes their surname, which has great relevance.

The Toisan Black Tiger sets in the vids you made which are on your site are portioned to not take up to much bandwidth and/or to fit with space restraints in the performance area or to not show the set in its entirety. So, in some sets, you show a section of the set, miss another and then show another. However, each and every section you show of any set is what I taught you. So your statement that the sets are “not exactly what you’ve shown me” is not accurate, nor true. In viewing these sets recently performed by yourself, I have observed that your performance of them has degraded somewhat over the years. Again, if you do not like what I taught, do not think it is good, then wipe it all from your mind and do something else.

Family…it appears you do not know the true concept of the word. There are numerous definitions in the dictionary of the word, one being; a group of related persons or things having common characteristics. Hence, as used in my kwoon, it means; a family of students, a family of Black Sashes etc. As well, traditionally the hierarchy in the kwoon is based on Confucian and familial concepts, but I use it as stated above. Yes, sorry looking for you, because you are not on it.

Yes, I like to have true and supportive students such as Winterpalm. What Sifu would not!? It is a heck of a lot better than having one as such as you yourself an how you now present. Who are you to tell Winterpalm what type of relationship he has with his father. Rather, look at your own relationship with your own father.

Treating you like an ass!? You are acting like an ass in these posts of yours, but I have not treated you like one…perhaps I am being too civil with the likes of you though.

You allowing me to use you for clinical understanding!?...what an dumb statement that is sonny boy. I completed my clinical training back in 80/81. You came to my house, barely able to walk after injuring your back in a Lion Dance performance. I gave you two treatments and you were up and around.
Giving a treatment is not so much about something material. It is about having compassion for another human being, one who is a student and wanting to alleviate their suffering.
Having a student over for a meal or out to lunch is not about the cost of the food, it is about sharing of nutrition, heart and spirit.
Yes you did do a number of services...often not alone but in tandem with me and do not forget, Simo and I did a heck of a lot for you. “Even”…it is not about being ‘even’….where has your understanding of spiritual gone?…or perhaps you were just faking it before.

You certainly have an agenda…one mostly of negativity, destruction, half truths, lies.

You on the whole, do not base your opinions on facts...which just makes you ...well, I will just say that.
It is up to you if you want to go on deluding yourself…it is your life, your mind and your spirit.

Well, thats enough with this. Tomorrow is Christmas Eve.

This is the true you wes.

[David Jamieson]

p.s

Ross, you like many others are reading these posts because it's like watching a car crash.