Why do that with a staff?

[Judge Pen]

I've seen a couple of southern staff forms that have a particular move in it that I don't understand. They spin the staff above their head with one hand and with an open palm. the staff is just spinning unsupported but for the open palm. It has no power or stability. I've only seen it in some CLF forms and on David Jameson's website. Can someone tell me why you would do that and why it is in these forms?

[PangQuan]

cause its purty?

[MasterKiller]

Is the move preceeded by them yelling "Go Go Gadget Helicopter"?

[mantis108]

It would help to have the context of the move such as what comes before and what's after. I have a few explanation for that.

1) In modern term, it looks cool to use that move and it will score higher with the competition judges. :eek:

2) In training term, it helps to see the control of the staff by the exponent.

3) In pratical/traditional term, it was design not to be flinging loosely. Rather it should be well controlled spinning so that you can create space between you and opponents riding on horses. The southern staff or spear for that matter is after all considered more or less a long range weapon. This would also applied if you are in a city/town setting (ie restaurant) where multiple people can make use of tables to jump down on the staff user. It's rare these days but it could happen in the old days where the conflicts between the government and underground societies were more common.

Just some thoughts

Mantis108

[sean_stonehart]

Is the move preceeded by them yelling "Go Go Gadget Helicopter"?

****!!!!!! THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN MISSING!!!!!!:D :D

[David Jamieson]

In training term, it helps to see the control of the staff by the exponent.

*ding*

weapon control is a large part of weapon training. there's lot's of drills and practices that don't apply to usage but do apply to control of the weapon and overall balance, strength, etc etc.

in the instance of the clip from my site you mention, it's a control method but also part of form closure which is generally stylized techniques denoting where the set came from or who it came from.

[Sow Choy]

Judge Pen,

In the Lee Koon Hung school of Choy Lay Fut we do not have this move, maybe it was taken out or maybe other schools developed it....

Every once in a while in various styles you will see a move that was added somewhere down the line to show the control of the weapon, either for a show or just basic handling...

But I have seen this move before, usually by someone who is not very good, so I am not a good judge... But I like practical more than pretty...

I have seen some people use the tiger fork where they roll it around there arms and shoulders to get the fork to spin and look cool... Again another move for looks... And we dont have that one either...

Joe

[- Human]

Is the move preceeded by them yelling "Go Go Gadget Helicopter"?

:D LOL, that's the funniest thing I've read on this forum to date.

Yeah i'ev seen this also wone with that weapon that looks like a devil's pitchfork... Tiger fork?

I agree, although it's a "controlled" spin, when its just rotating on your palm I can't see much actual use in that move in combat.:confused:... But I guess general weapon control is always a good thing to have.

[David Jamieson]

there is no use for it in combat.

just like your school bow really doesn't have a practical combat use, or bowing, or lighting incense or some other ritualistic practice that is part and parcel to every single school of chinese martial arts that ever there was.

not everything that is in martial arts practice has martial application and people who say everything should are taking the anus point of view of martial arts. lol

ask about combat stretching. :p everyone does it, no martial application, or how about combat situps and pushups? combat cardio anyone? combat sand can lifting? combat weight lifting? anyway...you get the inference.

There are entire forms that are more or less a string of different chi kungs. Then, amonst the gongs, a couple of combat moves, then back to the string of gongs. These types of practices are quite common across many styles of chinese martial arts. It is a design of efficient use of time in practice more than anything.

If you have 50 moves in a set and you practice that set 1000 times, then you have practiced each of those moves 1000 times. Now, this build takes a while, but you will effectively have more usable things in the long wrong an hence the variant heavy nature of chinese martial arts.

[TenTigers]

a palm spin in forms usually is used to show mastery of the weapon. However, it could be used to reverse the end of say a spear, or another weapon with an edge on only onne side,not a staff. When I was learning Sayoc Kali, we learned to palm spin the knife from sabre grip to reverse (ice pick) grip, and back with a flat palm spin, as well as other methods, until it became natural and can be used during transitional moves. That being said, what applies to a small hand held weapon might not also have the same application to a larger weapon, and I am completely wrong and a total whack job!:eek:

[CLFNole]

I have seen it in northern spear, more specifically in a pek kwar spear form I learned called lien wan cheung.

As far as being in a southern staff form it doesn't make much sense. The majority of southern staff sets are with longer single head poles (shui may kwun - rat tail staff) and there is typically very little if any spinning moves. There might be an occational flower but I have never seen what you described in a staff set especially CLF.

[greensage22]

I thought of a use for the move: arrows falling straight down on you
so you spin the staff in hopes of not getting impaled. what do you think?:D

[shuaichiao]

The move your describing originated with horse back kwan do. It's a way of changeing your grip with one hand while you control the horse with the other. In application you would only give it a half spin to turn your grip around but for training balance and control they let it spin a couple times in forms.

[ZhuiQuan]

there is no use for it in combat.

just like your school bow really doesn't have a practical combat use, or bowing, or lighting incense or some other ritualistic practice that is part and parcel to every single school of chinese martial arts that ever there was.

not everything that is in martial arts practice has martial application and people who say everything should are taking the anus point of view of martial arts. lol

ask about combat stretching. :p everyone does it, no martial application, or how about combat situps and pushups? combat cardio anyone? combat sand can lifting? combat weight lifting? anyway...you get the inference.

There are entire forms that are more or less a string of different chi kungs. Then, amonst the gongs, a couple of combat moves, then back to the string of gongs. These types of practices are quite common across many styles of chinese martial arts. It is a design of efficient use of time in practice more than anything.

If you have 50 moves in a set and you practice that set 1000 times, then you have practiced each of those moves 1000 times. Now, this build takes a while, but you will effectively have more usable things in the long wrong an hence the variant heavy nature of chinese martial arts.


OK. How can you completely write off the possibility that twirling a staff above your head could be functional in combat? Have you experimented with it? Have you done research? Have you ever had to defend yourself against a cavalry?

And in reference to your comment stating, "not everything that is in martial arts practice has martial application..." what about natural stance? I've learned three different natural stances so far, and two of those three have been demonstrated to show me their practical use in combat. Natural stance with the hands to the front, can block the groin; natural stance with the hands in prayer position can be used to either knock an attackers hands away if they are grabbing you, or to sandwich a punch or weapon attack (if you're incredibly advanced of course). Even if you were to bow with your right hand at your chest, you could use that hand to block or strike with a Buddha palm.

I've only just started, but I know what I've seen. Any time we learn anything, we usually get a little demonstration of it's practicality in combat. I've been taught 3 forms so far, and every movement in each of those forms can be effective in a fight.

[Judge Pen]

I've been in the martial arts for over 16 years. I could not think of any practical application for spinning a staff or spear over your head with the palm open. That's why I started the trhead, hoping that someone else could provide more insight.

As for showing "mastery" over the weapon.... I don't know. It's not that hard to learn to do.

[Ben Gash]

I once asked one of my teachers about some of the more flambouyant twirling moves with staffs, and he explained that they were often separate applications practiced together in the form. So you practice the big overhead spin with the palm open (which I must agree, I've only done with a horse cutter), and you're actually practising 2 grip changes. The advantage of this is that it's harder, so you become better at doing the small grip changes. It's the same with a lot of the big overhead twirls, they're really little hooks and digs linked together to give you a better feel for the energies.
Hate to disagree with you David, but I could teach for 3 hours on bow applications.

[David Jamieson]

I
Hate to disagree with you David, but I could teach for 3 hours on bow applications.

yeah, me too but that doesn't mean anything. Try applying it with a live resisting opponent and see how far bow applications get you. This outmoded kind of thinking is in my opinion a waste of time.

Also, the spinning on an open palm has no use as a striking or defending application. It is likely that despite all teh chit chat about it that anyone could actually demonstrate the move being used in a live environment.

there are a great deal of movemonets across a great deal of forms that have application that is not of the ways of fighting but instead are to increase, tonify, decrease etc etc energies or strength et al.

Classical weapons training is fun and it's for show. There are techniques that will map over so that you could use a chair or a garbage can to defend yourself etc etc. I don't put a lot of stock into the minutia of classical kungfu. A lot of it is pretty and ineffective when it comes right down to it.

One has to be realistic in their approach. Cl;assical exercise is good for you and traditional martial art is fun practice, but try not to get too caught up in thoise things tht you don't have definite knowledge of.

IE: I can use and handle a staff. I can hit really fecking hard with it and with relative accuracy. It is fun. I do not focus on it as a reality fighting tool because it isn't. For that I train repititiously only a few technique for striking, kicking, throwing and submitting. THose are the things I would use in a fight. THe kungfu just is practice and augmentation for me for the most part.

[hskwarrior]

The move where he twirls the stick on one hand with an open palm is also in Professor Lau Bun's Spear set as well. When you consider whether it is applicable its not. Any time you take your hands off or loosen your grip on a hand held weapon you take a chance on loosing your weapon.

But, we add in a little hop in place (like jumping over something) and land in a tip toe horse while using the blade to slice the throat. But, you have to get a good grip of the stick, and with your wrist torque the turn using the blade to cut.

hsk

[Ben Gash]

Can and have :rolleyes: I do wish you'd stop transferring your insecurities onto others. Also, no-one at any point suggested that the technique in question had a striking application, it's a grip change and / or a gratuitous display of skill.

[Chief Fox]

I don't put a lot of stock into the minutia of classical kungfu. A lot of it is pretty and ineffective when it comes right down to it.
What would you consider to be "classical kung fu"? Forms? Ive learned a lot of forms and I've drilled applications for most of them. I've then used those same techniques when sparring. I do find that I have my favorite techniques that I use in most situations and they work well for me. I look at everything else as just increasing my arsenal and I continue to try new things to try to improve.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that spining a staff over your head has any combat value. What it does teach you is agility with a weapon and that is a valuable skill to have in your arsenal.

[hskwarrior]

I have to disagree with what david J said about classical weapons are only fun or for show. The Butterfly knives are a good example. No you can't carry them around with you, but you can substitute the knife for lets say a short stick you can apply the same principals minus the slicing and dicing.

I have studied Latosa Escrima for some time now, and prior to that i felt i had a good understanding of how to use them (butterfly knives), but after learning escrima i have a whole knew respect for that weapon because if can be applied effectively regardless of what you hold in your hand.

another thing i've learned thru escrima is the necessity of never losing your weapon.

but, all sets, hand or weapon have pretty glamorous techniques, and like the chinese say..."if its too pretty it doesn't work". 8 x's out of 10 techniques need to be modified to make it work according to American needs. The way techniques are strung together in sets are nice, but are in no way shape or form intended be executed in exact sequence.

At most the best you will ever be able to get off in a real combative situation is mainly basics. If you and another had a spear fight you wouldn't have the time to do any fancy twirls, or even have the chance to make risky grip changes. But, when performing in front of a crowd, pristine (sorry 4 mis-spelling) crisp and fancy techniques are the definte crowd pleaser.

It all has its place, its just up to you to dissect it and make a fancy technique applicable, much the same way you should with your gung fu.

peace

[IronFist]

Is the move preceeded by them yelling "Go Go Gadget Helicopter"?

rofl :D

10 character limit.

[David Jamieson]

Can and have :rolleyes: I do wish you'd stop transferring your insecurities onto others. Also, no-one at any point suggested that the technique in question had a striking application, it's a grip change and / or a gratuitous display of skill.

you seem to fall back on this insecurity thing a lot ben. something you wanna tell us? :rolleyes: :p

Here's the long and short of it.

oens talking about a form I am doing that I am demonstrating. I know that form inside and out and seeing as much can make commentary about what it is and what it is not.

If you guys learn that form, break it down, extrapolate it and figure out what it is what in it, then by all means, let's discuss it. Otherwise, take my word in regards to the film of me when I say that what I am doing here or there is coming from a viewpoint of "I" am doing it, not watching it, not mindlessly ambling about etc etc.

[Ben Gash]

you seem to fall back on this insecurity thing a lot ben. something you wanna tell us?
I'm not the one running other's skill down and declaring that the training methods of people don't work at all. I'm pefectly comfortable with my kung fu, its saved my skin on numerous occasions, and because of that I'll freely admit that I don't have all the answers all the time.
You tell everyone to think outside the box, and then proceed to A) make assumptions about everyone else's kung fu training based on your own experience and B) Refuse to acknowledge that anything outside of the narrow spectrum of what you've decided is "real" is valid.
I am good at Chin Na becuase I am good at bridging because I am good at Chi Sau. I know I'm good at Chin Na because I have used it many times in real situations where I have been in real physical danger, often against people with increased pain tolerance due to drink, drugs or mental illness (I have a pretty high risk occupation, indeed, I'm statistically more likely to be assaulted than a policeman). Therefore I can teach for 3 hours on bow applications and I know they'll work. Will they all work for everyone? Possibly not, but they'll all work for someone.
BTW, have you been on the meth? Your writing style has really gone downhill in the past few weeks, and in some paragraphs I have no idea what you're trying to say :confused: