Cardio w/ WC flavor?

[Logan Macleod]

Hello everyone, this is my first post. I've been training in Wing Chun for a little over a year now and absolutely love every aspect of the system and the training. In regards to cardio training ( an invaluable part of any training program ) I was wondering if anyone knew of a cardio workout(s) that also served in developing WC attributes? Aside from running, skipping rope, and shadowboxing, etc., anything WC specific? I'd love to hear some of your training methods.

Thanks,

Logan

[viper]

Highly reconmend chain punches in the air 2 min burst hard and in low horse stance also chain punches aginst a kicking sheild as hard as possible for 30 seconds 5 seconds rest. small low round kicks against a sheild or heavy bag as fast as possible in 1 min count how many you can do good fun. knees against kicking sheild for min elbows against shield 1 min be imagientive about it alot of things can be used for cardio all the techniques can be made to get you tired this is just a rough guide low horse stance does it good too.

[Logan Macleod]

Thanks for the reply viper, those sound like great drills. I do use my imagination quite a bit in my training, my favorite for cardio is shadowboxing in 3 min. rounds, or high/low kicking in a one legged stance ( that's a killer ). I was just curious to hear what others might come up with.

[viper]

do u live in australia at all. Also ive got this belt thing with rubber rope things on it it adds resistance to my body its awesome for workouts also u could use like weights in ur hands to get same efect. I practice somtimes in my pool for bout 2 hours great resistance also another tip is to do all ur cardio exercises with no rest in between it gets u way mro rooted.

[anerlich]

This protocol is widely accepted for conditioning by pro combat athletes:

http://www.trainforstrength.com/Endurance1.shtml

The problem is that if the drills or exercise you use for cardio are too technical, they cease to be intense enough. And also you may by practising technical drills under duress, you may end up substituting gross movements for fine ones and ingrain poor technique into your nervous system.

I tried doing some reasonably technical grappling drills for cardio, but they weren't nearly as intense as doing burpees, sprints, or full speed continuous punching of a heavy bag, though I could ramp up the intensity if I did the grappling drills on a heavy bag with lots of Ground and Pound.

Bagwork is great to get the burn for cardio, but horse training and one legged kicking are more muscular endurance exercises than cardio. They are good developmental drills, but not for cardio.

A dril I like is with a partner on a heavy bag: you do 50 punches fast as possible while he holds the bag, swap, then 40,30, 20,10. Repeat. or work from 10 back up to 50.

[viper]

but horse training and one legged kicking are more muscular endurance exercises than cardio. They are good developmental drills, but not for cardio

You do have a point to this but its is cardio none the less so im just trying to cover all areas. Hip escapes raise the heart beat a bit the true fact of the matter is it all provides a cardio workout to some extent because it all requires blood movemnt but yeah i do c your point of view.

[Mr Punch]

but horse training and one legged kicking are more muscular endurance exercises than cardio. ... True, so what so you mean by:
low horse stance does it good too.?

[Nick Forrer]

continuous burpees/sprawls........they are the worst:eek:

Skipping?

Swimming?

These are all good

[Hendrik]

Hello everyone, this is my first post. I've been training in Wing Chun for a little over a year now and absolutely love every aspect of the system and the training. In regards to cardio training ( an invaluable part of any training program ) I was wondering if anyone knew of a cardio workout(s) that also served in developing WC attributes? Aside from running, skipping rope, and shadowboxing, etc., anything WC specific? I'd love to hear some of your training methods.

Thanks,

Logan


IMHO,

Since WC is a chinese martial art and thus it follows another type of body /intenal organs building/enhancement/improvement path.

The Chinese path is about Harmony of internal organs. Thus, The Chinese always work on a path which based on the five elements of internal organs to strenghten, tuning, balance/ harmonized them all instead of just working on just one individual. such as the heart related to the stomach and then to the lung....etc one organs support the other....


So, the first and most foundamental of strengthen the internal organs is about cultivate a Nature Lower Abdoment Breathing. That way, the blood circulation and oxigent In take are both improving.

Thus, if SLT/SNT was doing properly. This Nature Lower Abdoment Breathing is cultivate within it.

To fine tune or test for the capability of the cultivation, in my lineage, Thus I have heard, one can doing different type of set, such as the fast set , woodern dumy......etc.




So, it is a different type of training based on different core philosophy and the handling of SLT/SNT is based on Nature lower Abdoment Breathing and build up from there--- slowly increase the breath in take, increase the oxigen intake, activate the diapham (sp?), massaging the internal organs to help circulation due to the moving of the diapham...


Thus, I have heard,
since not everyone is super fit or fit, since we are human, we come with different characteristics, and we might temporaly develop sickness while aging. An acute Cardio or skipping rope type of intense physical exercise might not suitable for everyone.

While the Nature Lower Breathing cultivation type of training, in general will improve one's health and having a less side effect then those intense physical exercise.


Thus I have heard,
A rule of thumb to be remember based on the SLT cultivation is that anything which makes one abruptly hold breathing or stop breathing to boost or bust force, such as hold/Stop breathing doing punches is a bad deal that can damage internal organs.


Thus, mixing different philosophical based type of training needs to be careful because diffifent type of training can effect different handling outcome.


Merry Xams

[Nick Forrer]

BTW Logan Macleod

Congratulations on having possibly the coolest name in the entire world;) :D

[anerlich]

A rule of thumb to be remember based on the SLT cultivation is that anything which makes one abruptly hold breathing or stop breathing to boost or bust force, such as hold/Stop breathing doing punches is a bad deal that can damage internal organs.

Opinions vary. Some sort of intra-abdominal pressure is necessary to avoid injury for heavy lifting, explosive movement, and the like. Scott Sonnon et al prescribe that often the best time to move is in the "control pause" after a full exhalation.


Thus, mixing different philosophical based type of training needs to be careful

Basing your training on a single ideology without considering more recent scientific knowledge in the field and those related would be very careless indeed, IMO.


because diffifent type of training can effect different handling outcome.

Different methodologies have different goals and outcomes? Not exactly revelatory, is it?

[Hendrik]

Some sort of intra-abdominal pressure is necessary to avoid injury for heavy lifting, explosive movement, and the like.----

Thus, I have heard,
how much pressure the body can take in different part of the body and which part of the body is taking the pressure is a good question. With good handling in Nature Lower Abdoment Breathing, Thus I have heard, One can smoothly control the pressure of chest and lower Abdoment at will with knowing the pressure condition due to the type of breathing pattern.

One can advocate pressure is necessary to avoid injury for heavy lifting but that same pressure might cause hernia too. So why take the chances if one has no clear understanding and /or good control/handling? Not to mention those who has higher blood pressure or heart conditon.....




Scott Sonnon et al prescribe that often the best time to move is in the "control pause" after a full exhalation.-------

Thus, I have heard.
Pausing the breathing might influence the blood flowing to the brain. One might have a "Freeze Frame" mind which is a "slower" processing mind due to weaker blood circulation in the Brain at this time.

[Logan Macleod]

BTW Logan Macleod

Congratulations on having possibly the coolest name in the entire world;) :D
Thanks for the compliment Nick, I got teased quite a bit when I was younger because of my name. However....the ladies seem to like it so it makes up for it in SPADES. If I had a dollar for every time someone said "There can be only one" oh well...

Thanks to everyone for your replies. While training methods may differ between individuals ( as they should ), you all raise good points. I started this thread to gain insight into different approaches to training and that is just what I got.

Thanks again,

Logan

[lawrenceofidaho]

Try riding a stationary exercise bike for 20-25 minutes (varying between 50% and 80% intensity), -all the while performing SLT / SNT form and / or simultaneous attack & defense drills (e.g. - Pak-da, Gaun-da, etc.)

I did this three days a week for about four months straight, and noticed a big improvement in my fitness level.

-Lawrence

[reneritchie]

Andrew,

One of the guys I train with recently started doing kettlebells for strength, but he claims his endurance has shot up as well and that's the only 'new' training he's added. Have you tried them?

Logan,

Conditioning is not interlinked with MA. You can hammer a nail with a screw-driver, but it's not the best solution. WCK movements are suited for very specific martial arts development, not for cardio. Cardio is suited for cardio, and there's no mystery, just lots of generational and scientific knowledge behind it. Andrew is correct in that any type of HIIT (high intensity interval training) will best improve your cardio, be it wind-sprints, burpees, versa-climber, etc. Check out the link he provided.

Hendrik,

The modern training model has spread everywhere. Chinese soccer athletes don't train Shaolin-style anywhere but Steven Chow movies :)

[Tom Kagan]

Anyone who thinks Burpees are "the worst" has never experienced the uphill buddy carry sprint and return races. We didn't call them genocide runs for the sake of irony.

If you want "cardio" with a MA flavor, then just start working more if it into your lifestyle instead of something you have to go do separately. For instance, you could ride your bicycle to work.

However, within the context of a Ving Tsun paradigm, JinChoi is the drill for which you are looking.

[anerlich]

Rene,

I've got a 16kg, pretty light but it is good for strangth and muscular endurance. Unfortunately due to old back injuries I can't do too many of the more interesting and specific KB exercises - windmills, side press, bent press, etc.

I'm thinking of buying a 24 and a 32, but as you probably know they are not at all cheap, and I can do most (but not all) swings and presses with an equivalent dumbbell, though the KB adds different stresses and aspects to the exercise.

I still found that even with full speed KB swings in the Tabata protocol, it still doesn't generate the same cardiovascular intensity as burpees, sprints, etc. I've been doing a lot of hill and stair sprints lately.


The modern training model has spread everywhere. Chinese soccer athletes don't train Shaolin-style anywhere but Steven Chow movies

Indeed. With all the money and fame involved in international sport, if qigong (WC based or otherwise) and the like really enhanced performance in any sport all the elite athletes would be doing it. That it's not happening is telling.

Is there any real evidence that any of those practices prolong life, or active life?

I'm going to stick with qualified medical opinion and keep doing cardio, rather than listen to unqualified self-styled latter day Kwai Chang Caines on the web.

Yes, there's no evidence cardio prolongs life either, but plenty that lifestyle-related heart disease shortens it.

[reneritchie]

I read in a Chinese newspaper once where the reporter asked a sifu if all the stuff in the old legends was true. The sifu said that if it were, China would win every olympics.

Now, I do think there is holistic and health benefits to Qigong and Neigong (even modern athletes have found benefits in Yoga and Taiji-like exercises). Many professional athletes sacrifice long-term health for immediate performance (everything has an opportunity cost), so does the average person need to train like a world-class wrestler? Probably not. But the principles are beneficial, and some Chinese or Indian health principles are probably a good complement along with modern physio, postural, and nutritional principles.

Breathing is still essential :)

BTW - We have a local kettlebell supplier now, but they're still expensive.

[Edmund]

BTW - We have a local kettlebell supplier now, but they're still expensive.

You seen those websites where they have homemade kettlebells?

They used some plates and connected together some pipes to make a handle.

Here's one I just found although I recall a lot of different ways of putting one together:
http://www.ikettlebell.com/homemadekb.html

[anerlich]

Ed,

Have you, or do you know anyone that has, tried them, and/or how they compare with the real thing (TM)?

Rene,

I agree, I still do my breathing drills and lots of yoga, like, as you say, a lot of top athletes.

If you did everything you're told you should to preserve health and prolong life, you have to wonder how incredibly drudgery-laden and boring it would become.

I don't buy the attitude that you have to study breathing to the nth degree before you attempt ANY sort of exertion - animals have being doing it just fine for millions of years, or that getting it slightly wrong will damage you irreparably - and particularly that I have to take unchallenged the advice of unqualified "experts" on the subject.

I don't accept that the main purpose of WC is health cultivation, either. IMO on its own it is a pretty average regime for health. For fighting, yeah, great, but for health cultivation, naah.

[Edmund]

Ed,

Have you, or do you know anyone that has, tried them, and/or how they compare with the real thing (TM)?


No. I'm not a user and don't know of any users around my area.
It's not the easiest thing to find around these parts.

[Logan Macleod]

Rene,

Thank you for your reply. I agree that trying to replace good WC training with fitness conditioning would be like hammering a nail with a screwdriver, but that was never my intention. Rather, I like the way my friends' former Sifu expressed it , he said, " to get in shape, workout...to learn AM, train MA...". I was hoping to spice up my cardio with elements of WC to make the cardio more enjoyable for me, but I should just shut up and do the road work...

As far as martial arts and fitness being interlinked, I'll use a swordsmanship analogy to express my feelings on the subject. The rapier is a highly effective weapon by itself, able to execute very precise movements with deadly results. However, when you pair the rapier with a main gauche, the rapiers' potential is increased in many respects Wing Chun is the rapier, fitness the gauche, it should enhance WC but never overshadow or interfere with it.

Thanks again,

Logan

[Logan Macleod]

anerlich, thanks for the web address...very cool site!