chan tai san boxing

[Green Cloud]

Hey dave were you aware that sifu was a pro boxer back in the day. I new that he was one of a few CMA guys to KO s western boxers using roxbery rules. Chip chip cheerio what da ya think. I herd that he competed on the regular.

[lkfmdc]

While Mike was surprised to learn this, I wasn't in the slightest. Sifu always taught hands up, up on the balls of your feet, and jab your way in :D

I knew he had "played" or fought some western boxers, wasn't aware he had done any sanctioned matches though until Mike came back recently...

Sifu's entry into boxing is probably the best story though. He lost the first match, saying he had trouble with the gloves....

Now listen kids, because this is quite relevant to some related BS going on here...

Sifu said, "fine" and set up another match A WEEK LATER with the same guy. He had simply never put on gloves before and said they "felt funny", but a week with a pair was enough to get the feel

IN the second bout, sifu was doing fine, except was cautioned for hitting behind the head (rabbit punching). Apparently, and Mike didn't get the whole story, the referee even stepped in, held sifu's hands, and that's when the guy landed a hard shot that KO'd sifu....

It is possible the referee was favoring the other guy, or just a bad referee... but it certainly wasn't very fair... regardless, sifu returned to teh ring many more times, including being part of a three man team that represented Toi San at the provincials

[Green Cloud]

Hey Chris, I'm sad to say That I finally got sucked in by the madness. My students sparked my curiosity about the kung fu forum. They aproached me in class and said hey yor training bro Dave Ross is on this site talking about stuff. Well I checked out the threads about Sifu and thats it. My students said, hey sifu why dont you join the forum. My response was a reluctant yes, but I dont have time to spend on line. Finally got sucked in by the Pina sanda contoversy ;). Not really sure what anybody is talking about??? But when everybody started ganging up on dave I jumped in ready to fight till I realized I couldn't punch or kick on this forum I can only type so here I am. At least I have a feww minutes a day to see how you guys are doing when it seems impossible to have time to converse by phone. Hope all is well Joy Gin

[Green Cloud]

When Mike told me about Sifu boxing, I was aware of the fact that he had some fights and that he was one of the few to easilly defeat western boxers. Mike just made it seem like a lot more. According to Mike, that was the new info that he got from China. Based on Mike's visit, no one in Canton knows Lama that is still alive. Anyone that we might want to train with... He also Baisid with low ga yun, you know the teacher from Mad Monkey Kung fu. Not that it means anything since $5 bucks and a song can buy you a bai sii in Hong Kong, oh yea for only 3 million U.S. you can also be in one of Lao ga yun's movies. Don't get me wrong, Low ga yun is one of my favorite actors. Based on his skill and experience in the movies I do consider him a great sifu. I'm just dissapointed that any American with 5 bucks, a fancy song and a dance can get Bai Seed, or become the Ambasador of Shaolin, like Steve Tabasco. According to Mike we have been all wrong The Bai si ceremony means nothing. Anyone can get one for a song and a dance. Now here is what I think that a lofan is a lofan. This is nothing new the Chinese have been playing the no tickie no shirty for years. All I know is that lots of sifus need to make a buck so they exploit the American Ego. Attention all the Bai si ceremony does not mean that you are any good at kung fu or that you're special. It is simply a pledge that you as the student are pledging loyalty to your Sifu. Unfortunatly most button heads use it as a way to get prestige. A students reputation should based on how good their Kung Fu is, not on who their Sifu is. Not to say that I'm very proud of my Sifu.

[TenTigers]

Hey, GC-great to see you on the forums! Seeing that you guys are the last of your lineage, what are your thoughts on tge benefits to learning a relatively "obscure" system as opposed to a "standardized" system.
I , being of the Tang-Fong Hung-Ga school find myself as one of the few that do this particular branch. Everyone and their uncle does Lam Sai-Wing style, which means that a person can basically go to any Hung-Ga school and the forms and fighting ideology is the same.Kind of like TKD in that respect. Our sets, while not radically different, are still quite distinct, as far as the energy, and some of the techniques. The fighting philosophy is still different as well. Frankly, I like it, because for me-it works. The problem is of course, if I have a student that moves-there is nobody teaching what we do-which can be frustrating.
What are your views?

[hskwarrior]

If i may jump in on this one.

I agree that the Bai Si in American Society has been cheaped by the all mighty dollar. What most don't realize is if you have made a personal vow to stay with your sifu, take care of your sifu, do what needs to be done about your sifu, your bai si ceremony takes place much later when the sifu is ready to take you after you have proven to be worthy of the cermemony. It is a decision soley up to the sifu, not the student.

I'm 37 soon to be 38, and i have been with my sifu since i was 14 years old. I have never done the Bai Si ceremony with him, but because i have spent my whole life dedicated to him and my school i never felt that i had to. It was a given that i am one of his senior students, and no piece of paper that says i am would make a difference.

Much like you chan tai san guys who were close to him got to learn some of his so called "secrets" or personal ways, i have been blessed to have gotten the chance to aborb my sifu's old ways, and ways of thinking, how he would approach his gung fu in his mid 30's as opposed to his age now where he doesn't think about hurting people, just living.

What im saying is that no money or piece of paper can substitute the experience of someone who has actually spent the majority of his life dedicated to that one sifu, learning and absorbing all that teacher had to teach. Money -for a brief second overtook my sifu when a certain student was laying it on him, and my sifu allowed this "stranger" to our school do the ceremony. I will never do it now because i feel that it was cheapened by money.

If a sifu is willing to cheapen the ceremony over money choose another sifu. But there are some teachers out there who appreciate the meaning of the ceremony and won't just do it with any old Joe.

Thanks folks, and im out!

peace.

[Green Cloud]

To be or not to be that is the question. I think it's a matter of preference. Most hung ga people I know might teach one and know the other one based on what lineage they are under. As far as learning obscure martial art systems I tend to agree with you it is a drag when it comes to poular styles that offer more locations around the world. In my case me and my training brothers have the daunting task of beeing the keepers of our style. It is more fun to have more people at your party. Then again I do have Choy lei fut, even though its different than everyone else sao deng soa jung gwa cup peck is something that they all have in common. Sometimes tradition gets in the way of progress, but it comes to the obscure I've alway subscribed to the train of thought that it's harder to block a technique when you haven't seen it before. Organizationally it's better for buisness to do a more popular system. That just my opnion.

[Green Cloud]

Hey there hskwarrior I agree, the bai si ceremony is important, but ufortunately many Sifu's do it for the cash. My sifu's quote was jun ging ju do (follow the teacher follow the way). In my case that was the condition of my bai si. Not a big price to pay considering what sifu Chan tai san gave me. As far as the clear cloud monestary sadly it has been abandoned. As far as the name my sifu always called it the Green cloud monestary. With so many chinese dialects it probably is called green cloud in some dialect but we are all in a cloud about that because with all the confusion its not clear:) Temples names are also subject to change because of governmental issues.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Hey Gus, just to clarify.


I didn't reveal NEW intel about Baai See ceremonies to you last week on the phone. I shared with you the fact (which I assummed you knew for a long time) that a Baai See ceremony is just the teacher is accepting the student. You are also thowing stories and names (which I have shared with you) around on this forum that are inacurate. I understand your excitment, wanting to share info I have given you, but please talk to me some more and get all the facts straight. For example;

Lau Ga Liang is the shaw bros. director who starred in the movie Mad Monkey.

Lau Ga Yung is his nephew, a well know movie star, fight choreographer, and director in his own right (He was the fight choreographer for J.C.'s Drunken Master II) He is also a great martial artist in my opinion.

On my visit to HONG KONG and China, I spent over a week with Sifu Mark Houghton (Great Guy for those of you who know him) and Sifu Lau Ga Yung. Sifu Lau Ga Yung decided to take me as a student (I obviously decided to become his student) and help promote the Lau family of martial arts in the West (America).

I got the opportunity to spend a few hours with Lau Ga Liang, the martial arts legend. It was an honor and a priviledge for me.

And who said anything about "$5" and a song? There are teachers in Hong Kong who charge thousands of dollars for you to become "Baai Seed." (American money!)

What you are referring to is the hype that you were told about when YOU, ME and DAVID were baai seed. It's not necessarily a big deal. To some Sifu, it's just for some extra money. For others, they honor the relationship that the ceremony represents. Everyone is different. It doesn't necessarily mean anything. Doesn't mean you get your teachers "secrets", doesn't mean you are great at KF, etc. It just refers to your relationship - Teacher/Student. It also doesn't mean anything if you SIfu and you do not perform the ceremony. But as far as you putting down the concept, that's up to you. But you are writing in such a way that you are putting down the fact that I chose to become a student of Sifu Lau Ga-Yung and he chose to accept me. You were not with me in HK and therefore should not make light of our relationship. We spent over 7 days together, eating, talking, training, before either of us discussed the next step in our relationship. It was a big step for me to take a new Sifu and a big step for his as well. He has never taught an American before, and only has about 10 students. The Lau family has never really taught openly before. It was always just movie people or teaching for movies. It was a big deal for both of us. I'm sure it's not your intention to belittle this, but read what you wrote,.. again.

And regarding what I told you about a movie? I shared some details about a project where the Lau family wants to make a movie using both American and Asian Martial artists. We talked about it when I was in HK and they are all very passionate about it. I asked if they had ever had investors in America for any of there movies. They said 'no' but would be open to it. I am going to investigate the prospects of this. That's all I told you. No one said anything about "Buying a role in a movie for 3 Million dollars."

And to compare me or mention me in the same post with Steve Demasco? Are you trying to insult me or just being silly?

C'mon brother, I thought I was talking to you on the phone to tell you some cool things I found out about our Sifu and my trip. If I wanted all this information spill onto the web, I'd have wrote it myself and skipped our phone call. You AND DAVE are putting all this info out there and it's not entirely correct. You guys are getting facts, dates and names wrong. At least wait until we speak face to face and I can give you the information accurately, okay? Then, when you write about it, you will be 100% accurate and authoritative.

I'll be glad to give you all the info I got when I was there, regarding our Sifu. If we see each other soon, we'll have a lot of cool stuff to talk about.

Until then,

Take care my Kung-Fu brother!

[Lama Pai Sifu]

And to clarify from another thread;

There was never a Green Cloud Temple in Canton where Chan Tai-San trained. It was called the Clear Cloud Temple. Ching Waan Jih. It sound like "Green" and the characters are almost identical (except for the water radical in Clear). Our classmate Steve Innocenzi found this out almost 15 years ago. We just ignorned the info.

The temple never changed names because of the government (Although this did happen in other cases with temples).

[Green Cloud]

yo mike you missed my point. I wasn't trying to make light of your great time in China. Sorry about misspronouncing names. The truth of the matter is loyalty. Getting romanced for a week by another teacher is what I'm talkin about. You kept on mentioning my teacher this my teacher that. I thought you already had a teacher. You think thats these guys are like Sifu they couln't hold a candle to Chan tai san's jock strap. Movie kung fu is movie kung fu I'm an artist so naturaly I like it, but cum on they never lived the life that sifu lived. These guys never experienced life and death combat like Chan sifu did. Listen I'm not trying to tell you not to get on with your life and try new things its just that If I were you I would have said met these guys that are very cool, they taught me some cool stuff and I will continue studying with them in the future. To call this guy my sifu is not what I would do since living or dead I was bi siid and take my vow seriously. I will always have one sifu, but learn and role model from many teachers. Sorry if you think I was talking negatively. As far as Green cloud thats what Sifu called it and thats the name of my school, and on the north east coast that is the recognized choy lee fut. Being that no one else reprsents my Sifu with the exception of Steve Dave and Inno. who throw full contact events. I will give you a call soon.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Gus,

I now understand what you meant.

But consider this; I am excited to finally find a new Sifu that I am excited to learn from. After studying with CTS for so long, it has made it hard for anyone to study with anyone else, agreed? CJ is the only other core guy who did that, and he's very happy with his decision.

He're some perspective for you. Baai See'ing with a Sifu doens't mean that you have one sifu for a life-time. What if Sifu died one year into your training? Do you just stop learning at that point? Of course not.

Plus, look at our Sifu, he learned from dozens (literally) of Sifu and friends. He learned dozens of styles. It never changed his relationship with his Sifu. Gee Chuyhnn never told him not to train with anyone else, and to be honest, I think he'd want all of his students to continue to further their knowledge and take on new Sifu's.

The Lau family may or may not have been 'killers' like CTS certainly was. But to say that their kung-fu is better or worse - without finding out for yourself- is a bit unfair, don't you think? You've never touched hands with any of them or met them for that matter. But you are probably practicing KF because of them.

Unfortunatly, many people think the Lau family is all about movies, and they are. They are truly passionate about makeing movies. But it doesn't mean their KF isn't real and isn't amazing. Lau Ga-Liang's father was a disciple of Lam Si-Wing - the top student of Wong Fei-Hung. Lau Ga-Liang is literally the highest ranking Hung-Ga Sifu in the world. He's been training since he's 7 years old, and let me tell you; after meeting him, I would say he's as fast as ever.

And my new Sifu, Lau Ga-Yung is almost 50 (looks 30) and is an amazing martial artists. These guys train like 3 hours a day and are for real.

Plus, do you think that with all experience, I would train with someone or people that didn't have a high standard? C'mon....

[lkfmdc]

There probably never were many people like Chan Tai San, and of course almost none left alive today. The only figure who really reminds me of Sifu Chan is the Shuai Jiao master Chang Tung Sheng...

Even when I studied with guys in San Francisco, it wasn't quite the same. Wong Ching was also a Lama guy, had great skills, was also a stone cold killer, but had less depth and diversity than Sifu Chan...

A few years ago, Ventura, Inoccenzi and myself ran into "iron head" who had been one of the coaches in Canton, he's in that group picture sifu had... I was completely un-impressed... He brought his senior student from China down and honestly, Ventura and I had trouble keeping a straight face.

That being said, if Mike found someone of skill whose method he likes, more power to him....

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Thanks for your support David. :)

GM CTS was an amazing martial artist. Upon my trip to Toi San, I got the chance to meet poeple that knew him well and hear some great stories about him. I learned a little bit more about the mindset he had growing up and found out more about his training. I met his friends, the sons of two of his senior classmates and his teacher's last surviving son. It was awesome experience. I can't wait until I go back in April.

David, I didn't say that no one in Toi San knew Lama Pai Kung-Fu; what I said was that Gee Chuyhn's son didn't know it, not that he didn't hear of it. And Lei Fei San's son said that he didn't think his father knew it (But we knew that already). The senior students of Gee Chuyhn, who died in 1946, had breakfast with me my last day in Toi San. I neglected to ask him about whether or not his father knew Lama Pai, or wether he knew it or not. I was listening to lots of stories and asked him lots of questions.

He is the president of the Toi San martial arts association and supposedly, a very accomlished martial artsist. I just sent him a letter asking him about Lama Pai, also asking him to train with the group I'm bringing in April. Gee Chuyhn's son will training with the group I bring to April as well, although he is not a professional martial artist, he will teach the group form, and then another form for the advanced/Instructors/School Owners that I bring with me on the trip.

I'll be bringing between 25-50 of my own students and I'm going to invite a few schools I know, to come on the trip as well. 4 days in Guangdong/Toi San/Fut San. Wong Fei-Hung Museum, Southern Shaolin Temple for a day, training with 1-2 instructors each day. 3 days in Hong Kong, training with the Lau Family at their school every day, then out to dinner at night with some of the Shaw Bros. Movie Stars. It will be a great trip. We're going from April 14-23, flying out of NY. If anyone has interest in going with us, you may PM. If any schools would like to come with us, please call me at my carle place location. Get numbers from my website at the bottom.

[hskwarrior]

So lama,

how was your experience in fut san? Did you happen to meet with hung sing people there? are you back now? hope you had a good trip.

From SF to china took 18 hours, what was your flying time?

hsk

[Green Cloud]

Gus, Hey mike no harm no foul you know I RESPECT those guys. When I was a kid I was in awe of them. That movie Mad Monkey had me at hello. Those guys were definatly a big influence in my studying Di sing peck gwa. I' still interested in meeting LGL and LGY, as far as giong to China in April I was more interested in doing a one on one not a field trip with a bunch of students. Not that I am not willing to entertaine the Idea. I thought if it was possible we could arange a hing dai trip. And just to clarify about the Damasco dude didn't mean to imply that you and him are the same. Your kung fu is real and his well I don't even want to spend the time going there. Joy gin bro.
I now understand what you meant.

But consider this; I am excited to finally find a new Sifu that I am excited to learn from. After studying with CTS for so long, it has made it hard for anyone to study with anyone else, agreed? CJ is the only other core guy who did that, and he's very happy with his decision.

He're some perspective for you. Baai See'ing with a Sifu doens't mean that you have one sifu for a life-time. What if Sifu died one year into your training? Do you just stop learning at that point? Of course not.

Plus, look at our Sifu, he learned from dozens (literally) of Sifu and friends. He learned dozens of styles. It never changed his relationship with his Sifu. Gee Chuyhnn never told him not to train with anyone else, and to be honest, I think he'd want all of his students to continue to further their knowledge and take on new Sifu's.

The Lau family may or may not have been 'killers' like CTS certainly was. But to say that their kung-fu is better or worse - without finding out for yourself- is a bit unfair, don't you think? You've never touched hands with any of them or met them for that matter. But you are probably practicing KF because of them.

Unfortunatly, many people think the Lau family is all about movies, and they are. They are truly passionate about makeing movies. But it doesn't mean their KF isn't real and isn't amazing. Lau Ga-Liang's father was a disciple of Lam Si-Wing - the top student of Wong Fei-Hung. Lau Ga-Liang is literally the highest ranking Hung-Ga Sifu in the world. He's been training since he's 7 years old, and let me tell you; after meeting him, I would say he's as fast as ever.

And my new Sifu, Lau Ga-Yung is almost 50 (looks 30) and is an amazing martial artists. These guys train like 3 hours a day and are for real.

Plus, do you think that with all experience, I would train with someone or people that didn't have a high standard? C'mon....

[Green Cloud]

Lama Pai Sifu]Gus, Hey Mike no harm no foul you know I RESPECT those guys. When I was a kid I was in awe of them. That movie Mad Monkey had me at hello. Those guys were definatly a big influence in my studying Di sing peck gwa. I' still interested in meeting LGL and LGY, as far as giong to China in April I was more interested in doing a one on one not a field trip with a bunch of students. Not that I am not willing to entertaine the Idea. I thought if it was possible we could arange a hing dai trip. And just to clarify about the Damasco dude didn't mean to imply that you and him are the same. Your kung fu is real and his well I don't even want to spend the time going there. Joy gin bro.[/FONT]
I now understand what you meant.

But consider this; I am excited to finally find a new Sifu that I am excited to learn from. After studying with CTS for so long, it has made it hard for anyone to study with anyone else, agreed? CJ is the only other core guy who did that, and he's very happy with his decision.

He're some perspective for you. Baai See'ing with a Sifu doens't mean that you have one sifu for a life-time. What if Sifu died one year into your training? Do you just stop learning at that point? Of course not.

Plus, look at our Sifu, he learned from dozens (literally) of Sifu and friends. He learned dozens of styles. It never changed his relationship with his Sifu. Gee Chuyhnn never told him not to train with anyone else, and to be honest, I think he'd want all of his students to continue to further their knowledge and take on new Sifu's.

The Lau family may or may not have been 'killers' like CTS certainly was. But to say that their kung-fu is better or worse - without finding out for yourself- is a bit unfair, don't you think? You've never touched hands with any of them or met them for that matter. But you are probably practicing KF because of them.

Unfortunatly, many people think the Lau family is all about movies, and they are. They are truly passionate about makeing movies. But it doesn't mean their KF isn't real and isn't amazing. Lau Ga-Liang's father was a disciple of Lam Si-Wing - the top student of Wong Fei-Hung. Lau Ga-Liang is literally the highest ranking Hung-Ga Sifu in the world. He's been training since he's 7 years old, and let me tell you; after meeting him, I would say he's as fast as ever.

And my new Sifu, Lau Ga-Yung is almost 50 (looks 30) and is an amazing martial artists. These guys train like 3 hours a day and are for real.

Plus, do you think that with all experience, I would train with someone or people that didn't have a high standard? C'mon....[/QUOTE]

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Frank,

Yes I am back, the trip was great. I didn't have the time to go to Fut San on this trip however. I am planning on going to Fut San when I go on my trip in April.

The trip was a flat 15 1/2 hours. Great flight, great airline, tickets about a grand. You are more than welcome to come with my school in April if you wish Frank. We'll be training in CLF about half the time, so I'm sure you'd enjoy it, feel free to let me know. :)

Gus, if you want to come on the trip, let me know. My students will be training in certain material, while any instructors I bring can train with them or on the side learning other stuff. I'll be going as a school once a year from now on, but I'll be going 2 other times a year myself. I'm going to invite some other schools that I am friendly with, certainly individuals (As upossed to school owners) can also join our group as well.

I'm just trying to figure out a package price. It will include everything, from airfare, 3 meals a day, hotels, training, trains, buses, etc. So I'm almost finished with the itinerary and I'll have the total price in a week or so. Most likely a lot cheaper than those other shaolin trips I see advertised. Closer to $2K, maybe a hundred or so more, maybe less. Other trips are like $2500-$3000 and just do the shaolin thing. We'll go to the southern ST, some other temples, train with 1-2 different masters each day and meet and train with some movie stars. It will be amazing!

Feel free to let me know if you want to go.