wing chun video clips [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Mr Punch

12-17-2005, 07:20 AM

OK, fisrt: not bad. not bad at all.

But, you asked for constructive criticism so thats what I'm gonna try and give you... bear in mind the written word is sometimes a bit clumsy and I'm gonna have to be very nit-picky to get across a couple of simple points we'd be able to talk about and clear up very easily face to face.

I'm not quite sure what I'm looking at here...

the website says on the 'applied fighting techs' section that
There is no "sparring" as such; the applied fighting techniques are preparation for the real thing (see the full contact section).... if we go to the 'full contact' section
it says
The aim is simple: to defeat an attacker within five seconds using this famous Kung Fu system popularised by Bruce Lee.
.... and yet when we watch the vids it looks like sparring! In fact the second one goes on for 35 secs, so we can guess they've missed their 'aim'...?!

And yeah, the third one has a nice punch. So what?! (Sorry, that's prob not v constructive... but I'm in a hurry so i wanna get my point across quickly)... check out a boxing sparring session: there'll be twenty or so of those in three mins. If the 'aim' is 'to defeat an attacker within five seconds' they've failed again... the punches are not using any hip movement, and therefore are relatively powerless, which is why despite the aim the attacker does not seem to be 'defeated'.

Also, this sentence...
These bouts are unique to White Lotus. No other Wing Chun school in the UK offers this level of reality training.is not true... it seems fairly standard wing chun pattycake to me... no offence but again, looking at the second clip, there are a couple of chain punch sequences with no ****ing target and a pak sao with no power behind it at all, prob because it's not using any hip motion whatsoever and is coming from too far out to effectively hit the opponent's elbow towards his body, which is then repeated despite its obvious failure from the first time. Also technically everyone seems fond of the snap kick (almost karate-style) to no apparent target or effect to start off each bout.

This kind of chambered snap kick has its place, but closing the distance and entering is not it: that's what we have the 'walking' kick in chum kiu for.

This just made me laugh (constructively of course! :D )
All bouts are carried out under strict supervision due to the ferocity of the techniques used. a) Didn't see anything particularly ferocious. b) What does the supervisor do? Step in and stop the ferocity half-way?! :D... but that's just me being a cynical pratt and is nothing to do with the site or the constructiveness!

Minor points:

The site guy can't spell ninjutsu. Bit worrying for a ninjutsu practitioner.

The bong saos on the 'wing chun' page seem very far forward... look up the thread on progressive rotator cuff injury.

His philosophy is that 'no school is superior to another' yet he maintains (wrongly) that he practises things in a way that no other school does.

He doesn't say anything about his lineage.

His Lok sao vid has the punches going way over the partner's head... these drills are supposed to be for sensitivity and reflexes, not reality I know, but what7s the point of practsiing something so way off the target?

The old 'defence against a kick gag' where some guy comes in and kicks once before stopping in his tracks and allowing a catch and well, whatever he likes, is so passe! :rolleyes: OK, I know it's a demo, but it is still meaningless, except maybe to explain why in the full contact clip they come in with such useless kicks at the start of each bout.

I want a pair of baat: which ones would I be buying? There are two different ones in the photo on the page selling them which (silly me! :p ) I assumed would be a pair.

That's about it. Please don't take it personally, you asked for it, it's just my opinion and i don't have time at the mo to be diplomatic!

Sekabin

12-17-2005, 08:10 AM

Ooh there's a bunch of constructive criticism I could give to those clips, but I don't have time at the moment. However, I would say that for your sparring sessions it would be better to use different gloves as the bag gloves that you're using now prevent you doing some proper wing chun techniques (lop sau for example) - which may explain why the sparring looks like it does.

Quick points:
1. Dummy video - I know you don't want to move the dummy much as it's not nailed down, but I couldn't see very much connected energy at all. Lop sau again is an example.

2. Were you putting 'deliberate mistakes' in the knife form just in case someone tries to steal your techniques? ;)

3. I'm not saying I'm any better, but on the single sticking hand clip, the positioning is lost several times (bong sau being notable) - it might be worth doing it slower and concentrating more on getting that right.

Like Mat above, not personal criticism, just quick observations.

Matrix

12-17-2005, 08:37 AM

I like the 3rd full contact clip:
http://www.wingchunkungfu.net/videos/012_full_contact_3.wmv
The thing I like most about this clip is that it shows how futile it is to try and enter with chain punches. :D The opponent picked it up quite well and countered with a nice punch to the head.

kravi

12-17-2005, 05:53 PM

hey,

i actually was really impressed with one of your other videos, the "dan chi sao". I often practice this kind of chi sao, but not with such fluid/varying movements that seem more like a kind of low-end sparring.

I watched it a few times to try to understand what is going on... in my school it's very much just: palm strike - bong sau - reset. (or, jut sao - straight punch - reset)..

that would be going on with your video, at a faster pace, but then without word the sides would change, and extra movements would be in there..

just curious - could you explain what is going on ?

cheers,

Mr Punch

12-17-2005, 06:40 PM

the "dan chi sao"... that seem more like a kind of low-end sparring.
Oh yeah, that's another point... the dan chi sao seemed like 'low-end sparring' which pretty much defeats it's purpose. As Sek said, structure seems to be sacrificed, as does sensitivity presumably, esp since they are often moving around without entering at all.

The thing I like most about this clip is that it shows how futile it is to try and enter with chain punches. The opponent picked it up quite well and countered with a nice punch to the head.Yeah, nice counter to the futile trademark wing chun moves... wonder where he learned that!:rolleyes: :D Only kidding, it was a nice vid but... hang on, I DO wonder where he learned that: if that was in the school too good, but why is that guy trying to enter with chain punches, and why are there other examples of the same thing on the vid?

KPM

12-18-2005, 05:40 AM

The thing I like most about this clip is that it shows how futile it is to try and enter with chain punches. :D The opponent picked it up quite well and countered with a nice punch to the head.

Yea! What Bill said! :) And why is it that the most effective exchange on that clip....the part that was actually slow-motioned so we would be sure and see it...looked more like boxing than Wing Chun?

Keith

Sekabin

12-18-2005, 05:44 AM

Would I be right in assuming that no-one likes these clips then? :D

Matrix

12-18-2005, 08:30 AM

Would I be right in assuming that no-one likes these clips then? :DI think people are hesitant to offer "constructive criticism". It's a slippery slope that tends to get people's noses out of joint. The clips are interesting. I agree with the points that both you and Mat made, and could add a few more. But, since I'm not willing/able to post my own clips it might not be fair. It's much too easy to be a critic.
When was the last time you saw a film critic produce a film of their own? ;)

Ultimatewingchun

12-18-2005, 09:24 AM

First of all, props to Stormtrooper for even posting the sparring videos. Not enough wing chun folks are willing to do even that much, imo.

Won't add anything to what's been said so far about chain punching, destroying opponents in just a few seconds, etc. Those bases have been covered well.

But I will comment on this:

"Why is it that the most effective exchange on that clip....the part that was actually slow-motioned so we would be sure and see it...looked more like boxing than Wing Chun?" (KPM/Keith)

***THIS GOES RIGHT to the heart of the matter, imo, about wing chun. It's techniques work best only when you get very close to your opponent. It's basically a short range striking/kicking art. So supplementing that with longer range striking and footwork as it is found in an art like Boxing makes a lot of sense.

Matrix

12-18-2005, 12:53 PM

***THIS GOES RIGHT to the heart of the matter, imo, about wing chun. It's techniques work best only when you get very close to your opponent. It's basically a short range striking/kicking art. So supplementing that with longer range striking and footwork as it is found in an art like Boxing makes a lot of sense.It certainly does go to the heart of the matter. The real problem is that the chain punch, if it is to be used at all, would be used AFTER you have contact with the opponent and have taken control of the situation. It is not, IMO, something to be used to enter. When I look at the clip, I see someone making a wild attempt to 'hit', and yet they have not established the right to do so. Therefore they failed. Plain and simple.
Wing Chun is NOT a short-range art, unless that is all you use it for. ;)
You know, I can use a hammer to break a piece of wood into two pieces, however I find that a saw does a much cleaner job. In other words, use the right tool for the job.

sihing

12-18-2005, 01:13 PM

What I got out of the few clips that I watched, especially the sparring ones was that WC doesn't work well against a defensive fighter or one that is running away, but what MA does? In actual situations is there such a thing as a "defensive fighter". When you’re on the street the time to attack is when the person is coming forward towards you, right? If this is not what is happening then are you really being attacked for real? This is the basic problem with sparring IMO, the aggression level is not sufficient enough in most cases. You can dance around me all you want with the fanciest boxing footwork for all I care, until you are in range and attacking me with your weapons, I am safe. Forward aggression is needed for most all MA to work, unless you are a counter puncher and using the opponent forward momentum against them.

The Mok Jong was sloppy and the guy performing it didn't stick well to the arms. It looked mechanical to me and without flowing movement and continuity.

James

Liddel

12-18-2005, 04:36 PM

I agree with some of the stuff already said and victor hit it on the head -
Big Ups to you for Sharing :D

One thing that is abundantly clear to me is the kicks.

My VT holds to the theory that without the hands in contact we NEVER use the front kick.

Of course i use the side kicks for longer range but at close range i never use the kick without my hands in contact ( mainly to take balance) and i noticed people had difficulty with the kicks..... Try them with a hand in contact i.e after a Lop etc.

Chain Punches are Awesome in my opinion but some people just blast as fast as they can, they dont match the timing of the fight....people need to look at Vitor Befort VS Vanderlai Silva....Vitor has a similar action to the Chain Punch which VT men can draw from.....

Also there was some clips that had the guys tie up a bit and the attacks simmered down....where are the elbows VT men are experts at elbows !
But i guess this is a dangerous action - but its full contact ?

Nice stuff all round
Thanks for sharing
PS IM NO EXPERT :)

Edmund

12-18-2005, 06:08 PM

Yea! What Bill said! :) And why is it that the most effective exchange on that clip....the part that was actually slow-motioned so we would be sure and see it...looked more like boxing than Wing Chun?

Keith

I would not agree that it looked more like boxing.

While the other guy may have supposedly had better WC form, it was obviously not working. Any one can perform the motions but they have to be used appropriately. The nature of WC is that you pay attention to what your opponent is doing. That's much more important than looking "right". If someone throws a punch and you ignore it, you got a good chance of getting hit.

The guy with the red gloves used his hands to defend the other guy's punches and then punched back to the openings.

sihing

12-18-2005, 06:31 PM

My VT holds to the theory that without the hands in contact we NEVER use the front kick.

Of course i use the side kicks for longer range but at close range i never use the kick without my hands in contact ( mainly to take balance) and i noticed people had difficulty with the kicks..... Try them with a hand in contact i.e after a Lop etc.

Chain Punches are Awesome in my opinion but some people just blast as fast as they can, they dont match the timing of the fight....people need to look at Vitor Befort VS Vanderlai Silva....Vitor has a similar action to the Chain Punch which VT men can draw from.....

One concept that I like that relates to the above is the idea of controlling your opponents balance first before executing kicks, especially high kicks. IMO high kicking is all relative concerning the difference between your height and your opponents. Me, I'm 6'1", so kicking a 5' guy in the head is easier and not very high for me, but someone else that is similar in height to myself would be a different story. For this I would have to lop and then kick to control the reaction of the opponent when the kick is executed. Regarding only using kicks in contact, I do believe this is a sound concept, but as with anything you can use it at will depending on your skill with it and such. In my experience only a few kicks like the front kick or low side stop kicks or low round kicks work effectively, as to actually make good contact with these other kicks is hard to do in application. But it is still good to know how to execute them to be able to help out others with defending the attack and to see the strengths/weakness in the movement itself.

Concerning the comment about the chain punching and timing, I agree totally. Timing is very important concerning the effectiveness of any application used against someone else. People are not wooden dummies, so you cannot just use a techniqe any old time. In the end timing, control of distance, and perception skills are keys to success for anyone trying to defeat another in combat.

James

Edmund

12-18-2005, 07:36 PM

What I got out of the few clips that I watched, especially the sparring ones was that WC doesn't work well against a defensive fighter or one that is running away, but what MA does? In actual situations is there such a thing as a "defensive fighter".

Well that doesn't sound good either. You need to have an opponent who can't defend themselves and attacks all the time to make the art work well?

Obviously anything works great when opponents don't actually defend and not so great when they do.

Matrix

12-18-2005, 09:29 PM

The Mok Jong was sloppy and the guy performing it didn't stick well to the arms. It looked mechanical to me and without flowing movement and continuity. James,
I totally agree with your assessment of that clip.
There's some other questionable activity as well, such as leaning in with the upper body to strike as opposed to stepping in with the strike and using the whole body.

Like I said earlier, it's easy to be critical. :o
At least you James have posted clips in the past.

Cheers,

Paul T England

12-19-2005, 01:56 AM

The full contact clip wityh the good punch? It looked more like boxing technique.

At my school we have 5 second and 10 second sparring so to say you are the only school doing this is clever marketing?

Also I think Mt Setters comes from Kevin Chan's wing chun so why the William cheung style butterfly knives? If its TWC why the standard Ip Chun stlye dummy form?

its easy to criticise and opinions are like arseholes but for me many of the clips lacked free flow

its easy to do drills< sparring etc when the other person is not totally free to react

thanks for showing the clips and its always good food for thought

btw for all you uk people the second uk wing chun conference is coming off at the end of feb

more details soon

merry christmas
paul

KPM

12-19-2005, 04:21 AM

"Why is it that the most effective exchange on that clip....the part that was actually slow-motioned so we would be sure and see it...looked more like boxing than Wing Chun?" (KPM/Keith)

***THIS GOES RIGHT to the heart of the matter, imo, about wing chun. It's techniques work best only when you get very close to your opponent. It's basically a short range striking/kicking art. So supplementing that with longer range striking and footwork as it is found in an art like Boxing makes a lot of sense.

Hey Vic!

You know, one thought that has been forming in my mind is this: Why do so many Wing Chun sparring clips look like boxing? I'm begining to think that to some extent it is because the boxing "structure" is more loosely defined than the Wing Chun "structure." Therefore when one's "precision" degrades somewhat when put under pressure in a sparring situation it resorts to something like a boxing structure. Why is this loose boxing "structure" the predominant thing you see in just about every form of competitive stand-up fighting such as western boxing, modern thai boxing, american kickboxing, and san shou? Maybe it is because this looser structure flows more naturally while still providing an effective platform under pressure. When it comes right down to it, performance rules over precision. So if I were looking to "evolve" my Wing Chun, I would seriously consider grafting Wing Chun in-fighting onto this "loose" boxing-like structure. Which is what I believe you are doing! :) Now maybe this is a heretical statement. But look at the evidence. In nearly every Wing Chun sparring clip posted, the participants do not stick to a strict Wing Chun "structure" through-out the exchange. So we have to ask....why is that? If such a large percentage of your actual sparring exchange is outside of the Wing Chun "structure", then shouldn't we be training that portion as much as we train the actual Wing Chun? Just a thought. And I just had another evil thought.....what do you get when you graft Wing Chun hand techniques onto a boxing structure? Jeet Kune Do! :eek:

Keith

Edmund

12-19-2005, 06:06 AM

You know, one thought that has been forming in my mind is this: Why do so many Wing Chun sparring clips look like boxing?

(LOL) But they kicked!!! That's a huge difference already. No matter how badly they did it.

A lof of fighting looks the same to the untrained eye. Everyone is throwing the same punches and kicks mostly. Straight punch, hook, uppercut, front kick, roundhouse kick. That's a similarity between martial arts.

Now WC teachers will snow job people into thinking WC looks drastically different but we can see that it doesn't work so good to look drastically different a lot of the times, does it? Unless it's some fake demo.

I'm begining to think that to some extent it is because the boxing "structure" is more loosely defined than the Wing Chun "structure." Therefore when one's "precision" degrades somewhat when put under pressure in a sparring situation it resorts to something like a boxing structure. Why is this loose boxing "structure" the predominant thing you see in just about every form of competitive stand-up fighting such as western boxing, modern thai boxing, american kickboxing, and san shou?

Thai boxing is not like boxing. Not even close. The techniques are too different. Thai boxing "structure" is based off applying all their techniques not just punches.

Same should apply for WC structure.

In nearly every Wing Chun sparring clip posted, the participants do not stick to a strict Wing Chun "structure" through-out the exchange. So we have to ask....why is that? If such a large percentage of your actual sparring exchange is outside of the Wing Chun "structure", then shouldn't we be training that portion as much as we train the actual Wing Chun? Just a thought. And I just had another evil thought.....what do you get when you graft Wing Chun hand techniques onto a boxing structure? Jeet Kune Do! :eek:

If you mean a mish mash that don't mix, yeah!
Boxing structure is good for boxing hands. Why are you adding the crappy WC hand techniques onto it again? I don't see why they merit being grafted. Shouldn't you just box if it's the largest percentage?

Ultimatewingchun

12-19-2005, 07:45 AM

couch

12-19-2005, 09:44 AM

Good post, Keith...

But I think that in the final analysis it's all about distance.

Only at a very close range can you "square up your centerline" and use the typical wing chun structure.

But what did you use to fight your way into that very close proximity?

And what will you use if the opponent manages to force the fight to go back to a longer range?

Those are the keys questions, imo.

This is precisely the problem I had yesterday sparring with my JiuJutsu friend. I couldn't get inside or passed his elbows because he kept moving around and backing up. And then if by chance I got in...if I got in too close, he would clinch to takedown to rolling on the ground BJJ!

I also noticed that it just wasn't a matter of squaring up my centreline and stepping in to striking distance...I had to get my head (and torso) inside/passed his elbows as well...which is tricky while he's throwing a nice head-ringing hook.

It's funny that the thread has gone this way, because this is something that I'm struggling with...Finding that balance between ranges within my Wing Chun.

Plus, I find I can't block EVERYTHING that he's throwing. I'm better to move around, back up, whatever...not what I've been taught! Always been taught to drive forward...but you should have seen my head snap back when I stepped in to close that gap.

It's almost like I'm going more the boxing route right now while trying to adapt my Wing Chun to a sparring session.

All the best,
Kenton Sefcik

KPM

12-19-2005, 10:49 AM

Hey Edmund!

But they kicked!!! That's a huge difference already. No matter how badly they did it.

---Notice I said boxing "structure", not pure boxing. You can kick from within a boxing structure.

A lof of fighting looks the same to the untrained eye. Everyone is throwing the same punches and kicks mostly. Straight punch, hook, uppercut, front kick, roundhouse kick. That's a similarity between martial arts.

---A lot of fighting looks the same to the TRAINED eye as well. Part of the "structure" is the engine or powerbase you are using to throw those punches and kicks you mentioned. The engine within the Wing Chun "structure" is different from the engine within the boxing "structure."

Now WC teachers will snow job people into thinking WC looks drastically different but we can see that it doesn't work so good to look drastically different a lot of the times, does it? Unless it's some fake demo.

---What you are essentially saying is that it doesn't work so good to be drastically different from that more "natural" and more "loose" boxing "structure" that I mentioned. At least not in a sparring situation. :) But that boxing "structure" is somewhat different than what one learns within the Wing Chun forms.

Thai boxing is not like boxing. Not even close.

---Notice I said "modern" Thai boxing. Modern Thai boxing has adopted the punching structure of modern western boxing more and more as time goes on.

Boxing structure is good for boxing hands. Why are you adding the crappy WC hand techniques onto it again? I don't see why they merit being grafted. Shouldn't you just box if it's the largest percentage?

---Boxing rules dictate boxing techniques. At the in-fighting range where boxing rules disallow grabbing, grappling, and trapping is where Wing Chun would "kick in."

Hey Victor!

But I think that in the final analysis it's all about distance. Only at a very close range can you "square up your centerline" and use the typical wing chun structure.

---Absolutely agree! :) And the "grafting" that I was talking about was making that smooth transition from a "boxing" mindset to a "Wing Chun" mindset.

But what did you use to fight your way into that very close proximity?

---You just stepped into him with a Man Sau...didn't you?!! :rolleyes:

And what will you use if the opponent manages to force the fight to go back to a longer range?

---But he won't! Wing Chun will dominate on the inside and end the exchange within 10 secs! :eek:

Hey Couch!

It's almost like I'm going more the boxing route right now while trying to adapt my Wing Chun to a sparring session.

---As noted in my original post.....it seems that you aren't the only one!! :D

Keith

KPM

12-19-2005, 11:00 AM

So here's the "dirty little secret" that a lot of Wing Chun people don't talk about. In order to make their Wing Chun work in a sparring situation, they have to "box" with it! But the problem is that very few do it well because they don't spend much if any training time developing the skills and attributes needed to "box" well. Instead they spend the majority of training time learning forms and doing Chi Sau. IMHO, our Wing Chun ancestors did very little if any "sparring." That's not to say that they didn't go out and fight! But sparring is not fighting. As we put on protective equipment and spar, we create a new environment that forces some changes. If you try to force "traditional/original/whatever-you-want-to-call-it Wing Chun into this new environment without embracing those changes that are needed, it is never going to work well. That's one of the reasons you don't see Wing Chun guys excelling in combat sports....they are all a "sparring" environment.

Keith

sihing

12-19-2005, 02:17 PM

But the problem is that very few do it well because they don't spend much if any training time developing the skills and attributes needed to "box" well. Instead they spend the majority of training time learning forms and doing Chi Sau.
Keith

This is because IMO, most WC is just this, Forms and Chi-sao. When I see people perform WC or demo it, I see exactly that, no idea what to do outside the trapping range. When we teach in our school, chi-sao is not introduced until level 2, and the emphasizes is on stance, footwork and movement. Later on the strategies of what to do when on the outside kicking range, since this is where is all starts in most cases. IMO WC has a answer to this to without having to become a boxer & learn that sweet science also.

James

Edmund

12-19-2005, 05:27 PM

---Notice I said boxing "structure", not pure boxing. You can kick from within a boxing structure.

I can't agree.
I think your boxing structure is not boxing structure at all. More like kickboxing.

---What you are essentially saying is that it doesn't work so good to be drastically different from that more "natural" and more "loose" boxing "structure" that I mentioned. At least not in a sparring situation. :) But that boxing "structure" is somewhat different than what one learns within the Wing Chun forms.

So because the form is a certain way, common sense flies out the window?
WC people are like robots. Any natural movement and it's not WC.

Forms aren't the only thing you learn.
It would be like a karateka going into horse stance and reverse punching in sparring. It wouldn't work.

Thai boxing is not like boxing. Not even close.

---Notice I said "modern" Thai boxing. Modern Thai boxing has adopted the punching structure of modern western boxing more and more as time goes on.

No. Thai boxing adopted boxing hands and kept Thai boxing structure which is the complete opposite to what you have said.

They've got to deliver a kick or a knee or elbow or clinching. Boxers don't.
They've got to be ready to defend a kick or a knee or elbow or clinching. Boxers don't. When you don't have to do all those things, why would you move the same way?

Look at how Thai's train and how the rules of the sport are structured. It's more geared towards a real fight because of how they allow these other techniques.

Because of that, it's not even close to boxing.

---Boxing rules dictate boxing techniques. At the in-fighting range where boxing rules disallow grabbing, grappling, and trapping is where Wing Chun would "kick in."

Funny, why haven't we seen any clips where all this trapping is "kicking in"?
What's stopping them? That large percentage of time where it's supposedly inapplicable?

Actually they were getting plenty close enough to do it in those clips. How much further "in" do you need? They were completely in your in-fighting range on a lot of occasions (maybe they took a weak kick on the stomach getting there). Any closer and they'd be doing some man-love. But there's no need to trap when the opponent can't get their hand in between your punch and their head.

And when you can't get your hand between their punch and your head.... well what can you say. How's that good WC at all?

Matrix

12-19-2005, 08:00 PM

This is precisely the problem I had yesterday sparring with my JiuJutsu friend. I couldn't get inside or passed his elbows because he kept moving around and backing up. Why are you trying to get inside or passed his elbows when he still has his balance? Are you trying to re-enact 'the Charge of the Light Brigade'? ;)
You're looking to hit him and he's standing there on a solid base with a loaded canon. I don't like the odds.

Ultimatewingchun

12-19-2005, 09:09 PM

Hey Kenton..lots to talk about!

"This is precisely the problem I had yesterday sparring with my JiuJutsu friend. I couldn't get inside or passed his elbows because he kept moving around and backing up. And then if by chance I got in...if I got in too close, he would clinch to takedown to rolling on the ground BJJ!"

***IN MY OPINION, the best way to go is to punch/kick your way in with boxing type straight leads, low front kicks, low roundhouse kicks - and other "boxing/kickboxing type moves" until you've got limb-to-limb contact (unless you've already knocked him down with one of your punches or kicks ;) )...and then use your wing chun infighting strikes/traps/sweeps, etc.

As to getting inside his elbows...if he's preventing that then work from outside his leading elbow - but always trying to stick and pressure in order to take his space away - while hitting without getting hit back - if possible.

If he goes for a takedown - you need to develop some solid wrestling sprawls and other anti-takedown moves - as well as some wrestling/grappling pummeling to clinch...and some nice Thai elbows and knees from the clinch could be a welcome addition to your arsenal also.

.....................

"I also noticed that it just wasn't a matter of squaring up my centreline and stepping in to striking distance...I had to get my head (and torso) inside/passed his elbows as well...which is tricky while he's throwing a nice head-ringing hook."

***YOU SHOULD LOOK INTO the use of sidestepping with biu/lop against hook punches (as it is found in TWC).

.............................

"It's funny that the thread has gone this way, because this is something that I'm struggling with...Finding that balance between ranges within my Wing Chun."

***WELCOME TO THE CLUB! :D
Hint: Wing Chun is a close range striking/kicking art - and very little else. (See above about the longer ranges).

.....................

"Plus, I find I can't block EVERYTHING that he's throwing. I'm better to move around, back up, whatever...not what I've been taught! Always been taught to drive forward...but you should have seen my head snap back when I stepped in to close that gap."

***TWO THINGS about this, imo...Learn to watch the elbows and knees and you'll get hit less - and forget all the B.S. about never moving back.

.......................

"It's almost like I'm going more the boxing route right now while trying to adapt my Wing Chun to a sparring session."

***A BOXING FRAMEWORK (along with low kicks) as a delivery system for your close range wing chun is the way to go, imo.

And speaking of that, KPM/Keith had this to say:

"So here's the 'dirty little secret' that a lot of Wing Chun people don't talk about. In order to make their Wing Chun work in a sparring situation, they have to 'box' with it! But the problem is that very few do it well because they don't spend much if any training time developing the skills and attributes needed to 'box' well. Instead they spend the majority of training time learning forms and doing Chi Sau."

***ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ON THE MONEY!

.....................

"IMHO, our Wing Chun ancestors did very little if any 'sparring.' That's not to say that they didn't go out and fight! But sparring is not fighting. As we put on protective equipment and spar, we create a new environment that forces some changes. If you try to force "traditional/original/whatever-you-want-to-call-it Wing Chun into this new environment without embracing those changes that are needed, it is never going to work well. That's one of the reasons you don't see Wing Chun guys excelling in combat sports....they are all a 'sparring' environment.

***BINGO AGAIN! (This guy's on a roll. :p )

But here comes his best stuff:

"Why is this loose boxing 'structure' the predominant thing you see in just about every form of competitive stand-up fighting such as western boxing, modern thai boxing, american kickboxing, and san shou? Maybe it is because this looser structure flows more naturally while still providing an effective platform under pressure. When it comes right down to it, performance rules over precision."

***IT'S ABOUT THE FLOW. Real fighting/sparring is about constant movement..give-and-take...in-and-out...side-to-side...always looking for angles to go in and attack on. And if you're a wing chun guy - you stay in and go forward as long as you can - but always remain ready to let that strategy go if you're no longer in the very close range - or if you don't have enough control over his ability to strike/kick/grab your body.

And as for going in with "mon sao"...forget it.

Go in with longer range straight lead punches like boxers do - rotating the lead shoulder, and the hip, pushing off the feet with a little bounce in your step, etc. (Maybe even an occasional lead hook punch, a rear cross, a straight lead/rear cross combo, etc.)

In other words, learn a little boxing! :cool:

Phil Redmond

12-19-2005, 10:44 PM

. . . . .
2. Were you putting 'deliberate mistakes' in the knife form just in case someone tries to steal your techniques? ;) . . . . .
That BJD form on that site was a "VERY" rough version of the TWC BJD form. The sequences or almost the same. He had to have learned it from a TWC source.
Phil

Kassandra

12-20-2005, 02:01 AM

Define "very rough?"

Sekabin

12-20-2005, 03:37 AM

That BJD form on that site was a "VERY" rough version of the TWC BJD form. The sequences or almost the same. He had to have learned it from a TWC source.
Phil

Thanks a lot Phil. Is the jumping bit also in the TWC form? I have to say I was a bit surprised by that.

Sekabin

12-20-2005, 03:41 AM

Go in with longer range straight lead punches like boxers do - rotating the lead shoulder, and the hip, pushing off the feet with a little bounce in your step, etc. (Maybe even an occasional lead hook punch, a rear cross, a straight lead/rear cross combo, etc.)

In other words, learn a little boxing! :cool:

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I can't find it. What does going in with lead punches like boxers do that a WC punch that rotates the hip doesn't? Is it 'extra' protection with the elbow out that you're looking for?

Phil Redmond

12-20-2005, 06:07 AM

Define "very rough?"
That's a hard one.
I didn't mean to disparage the man doing the form. Maybe I could have chosen better wording. Very rough is my politically correct version. I'll leave it at that. I base my observation on having practiced the form since the 80's, having had numerous private lessons with my Sifu, and having two of my students who are now Sifus themselves, successfully pass the BJD form in front of Sifu William Cheung.
Phil

Phil Redmond

12-20-2005, 06:09 AM

Thanks a lot Phil. Is the jumping bit also in the TWC form? I have to say I was a bit surprised by that.
Yes, that evasive movement IS part of the TWC BJD form. You can see William Cheung perform the form with applications in the Black Belt magazine video series. If you'd like, email me at sifupr@wingchunkwoon.com and I can send you a clip of a student doing the form.
Phil

Kassandra

12-20-2005, 06:41 AM

Yes, that evasive movement IS part of the TWC BJD form. You can see William Cheung perform the form with applications in the Black Belt magazine video series. If you'd like, email me at sifupr@wingchunkwoon.com and I can send you a clip of a student doing the form.
Phil

You see, this is why I asked. I've got a few of those videos, and form looks exactly the same to me (and lets face it, its a lot more impressive than the Ip Chun version).

Unless there's something I missed of course.

More to the point - what's wrong with this form?

Nothing would be my guess.

Ultimatewingchun

12-20-2005, 08:41 AM

"I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I can't find it. What does going in with lead punches like boxers do that a WC punch that rotates the hip doesn't? Is it 'extra' protection with the elbow out that you're looking for?" (Sekabin)

***THE BOXING PUNCH provides a longer reach (and therefore covers more distance) due to the shoulder and hip rotating forward - and the bounce/spring off from the rear foot.

Different mechanics than the wing chun structure way of delivering punches...and faster*, more mobile, and easier to retract the whole body after throwing a punch (all very important factors when trying to fight your way in safely from longer ranges).

* Now before anyone takes me to task about the speed of wing chun punches - they need to understand that I'm talking about the speed used/needed to get in (and out) from a longer range...I'm not talking about the actual speed that each individual SHORT RANGE wing chun punch can be thrown with.

Phil Redmond

12-20-2005, 02:17 PM

You see, this is why I asked. I've got a few of those videos, and form looks exactly the same to me (and lets face it, its a lot more impressive than the Ip Chun version).

Unless there's something I missed of course.

More to the point - what's wrong with this form?

Nothing would be my guess.
The form sequence is somewhat correct. The positions would not pass a TWC test.
I'd have to elaborate at a later date. I sent a clip to Sekabin showing the way it should be done. Maybe he can see the differences. But the bottom line is when fighting with or against an edged weapon there can be no mistakes.
Phil

Kassandra

12-20-2005, 05:20 PM

Well, Sifu Redmond, I would hazard that that is up for debate. I certainly haven't sat in on any TWC exams, so I'm not qualified to comment. According to WC archives, Setters is 4th Gen Yip Man, via Ip Chun and Kevin Chan, so evidently he knows his stuff. However, this is the Cheung form, not the Chun one!

That said, I would like to thank you for your forthright honesty; evidently you are qualified to comment on the form and your criticisms are for the most part constructive. Which is all that the poster asked for.

I am certainly impressed that you have not indulged in the usual WC slagging (“his master is rubbish, mine’s better”) nonsense, but as you are a Sifu of some 20 years, I can’t imagine that any of that is news to you.

Also, I see that dissecting the combat side of things is beneath you; as you know, watching the match after the event having not played in it – it’s easy to pick it apart.

White Lotus at least “show and tell.” This is what they do and they’ll show it. And I don’t think they’re professing to be the best fighters in the world – they’re teaching their students how to fight. A big difference.

Something I think that many of the posters on this forum are incapable of comprehending – or at least, conscientiously incapable. As I noted in a previous post (which has been roundly slaughtered to my amusement), it is the Dim Mak of Wing Chunners to say anything good about any other practitioners. So, I guess, there’s a small challenge for you.

As a 20 year Sifu, did you find anything of merit, relevance, effectiveness or positive in the (I think) 14 videos displayed on that website. I hate to but I have to qualify (because of the nerds) – I don’t mean “oh, well he could have slipped the punch and unleashed “this” devastating technique (“this” being whatever **** the IW wants to make up at the time). I’m thinking more of the package.

Personally, I’d say I’m really impressed. The website is slick, it gives credentials, shows what it preaches and gives no bull****. I’d be interested to hear your take, Sifu.

Sekabin

12-20-2005, 05:23 PM

The form sequence is somewhat correct. The positions would not pass a TWC test.
I'd have to elaborate at a later date. I sent a clip to Sekabin showing the way it should be done. Maybe he can see the differences. But the bottom line is when fighting with or against an edged weapon there can be no mistakes.
Phil

Phil sent me the clip and after viewing it I can tell you that the version on the site that started this thread is downright sloppy compared to the clip I've seen. Phil's point that there can't be any mistakes is spot on - each move should be 'there' when it needs to and the transitions should be there too. Sadly, they weren't in the site's clip (but were in the clip Phil sent). There appeared to be more rooting directly after the leaps too.

Kassandra

12-20-2005, 05:29 PM

Phil sent me the clip and after viewing it I can tell you that the version on the site that started this thread is downright sloppy compared to the clip I've seen. Phil's point that there can't be any mistakes is spot on - each move should be 'there' when it needs to and the transitions should be there too. Sadly, they weren't in the site's clip (but were in the clip Phil sent). There appeared to be more rooting directly after the leaps too.

I've not seen the clip that you mention. I only have the William Cheung video to compare it to, and it looks the same to me.

Its also worth mentioning that the BCD video was not the point of the thread. There were loads of clips, the BDC one was only one of them. I think its a package.

couch

12-20-2005, 05:51 PM

Hey Kenton..lots to talk about!

"It's almost like I'm going more the boxing route right now while trying to adapt my Wing Chun to a sparring session."

***A BOXING FRAMEWORK (along with low kicks) as a delivery system for your close range wing chun is the way to go, imo.

In other words, learn a little boxing! :cool:

Appreciate what you have to say, Victor and others.

Could we say that each "martial art" way of thinking has limitations?
And that the rules of each system whether they be carved in stone (joke intended) need be learned, bent and broken?

Honestly, ever since I put on the gloves, I got enlightened! I couldn't believe what I was missing as far as application was concerned. We all know know that Muay Thai is "King of the Ring" as they call it. Is this because it works in sparring, the ring and the street? Where does my WC fall into this?

Does WC need help in different areas? As Victor has suggested and as seen in many clips, should we box/kickbox our way into that in-fighting range?

Now, I know in my experience that in the kwoon, everything works perfect!!! LAF.

But, the drills we do is with a committed attacker who bridges that gap for me, punches a minimal combo, maybe leaves shadows and that's it. Works great. But what about the WHAT IF senario. Where the attacker pops in, maybe you hit him-maybe you don't-maybe you hit him and it's not enough damage and he pops out and starts bobbing like a boxer?

Then I'm "almost" in a sparring situation where I need to clear the path and strike the centre.

Lots going through my mind, lots to write!!! All the best,
Kenton

sihing

12-20-2005, 07:14 PM

Appreciate what you have to say, Victor and others.

Could we say that each "martial art" way of thinking has limitations?
And that the rules of each system whether they be carved in stone (joke intended) need be learned, bent and broken?

Honestly, ever since I put on the gloves, I got enlightened! I couldn't believe what I was missing as far as application was concerned. We all know know that Muay Thai is "King of the Ring" as they call it. Is this because it works in sparring, the ring and the street? Where does my WC fall into this?

Does WC need help in different areas? As Victor has suggested and as seen in many clips, should we box/kickbox our way into that in-fighting range?

Now, I know in my experience that in the kwoon, everything works perfect!!! LAF.

But, the drills we do is with a committed attacker who bridges that gap for me, punches a minimal combo, maybe leaves shadows and that's it. Works great. But what about the WHAT IF senario. Where the attacker pops in, maybe you hit him-maybe you don't-maybe you hit him and it's not enough damage and he pops out and starts bobbing like a boxer?

Then I'm "almost" in a sparring situation where I need to clear the path and strike the centre.

Lots going through my mind, lots to write!!! All the best,
Kenton

Kenton,

Just a comment on some of what you said above. Concerning the WHAT IF scenario, and the "attacker pops in, maybe you hit him-maybe you don't-maybe you hit him and it's not enough damage and he pops out and starts bobbing like a boxer?" comment, to me when a student says something like this, I say it is obvious that you did not apply the Wing Chun correctly, otherwise how was the opponent able to pop into range and then out of range without you sticking to him. You see IMO this is the problem with some things said on this forum. Yeah I know that you cannot always perfectly apply everything learned and practiced from the kwoon in the reality world, but that rule and limitation apply to the other guy also, whether he is a boxer, MMA, JKD guy (but for some reason that is not a given on this forum, with them always being portrayed as perfect in execution and us WCners as imperfect most of the time. Just a observation). The key in training the applications we learn from the WC delivery system is to progressively increase the intensity and commitment when training it. Also you have to do this from perfect position and imperfect position regarding facing the opponent. Just last night I was teaching a class, I had them train footwork and positioning with partner while they were moving around the room trying to flank them, then I had them practice perception drills and warm up the eyes, then one hand vs. two, then at the end free sparring with punches only, putting it all together (obviously the seniors did better than the juniors, but still in application they all ended up doing it all well). I related that perfect execution in placement with the opponent is desired but is not always going to happen, but at the least step somewhere while defending/attacking simultaneously, this way you have at least given something back to the opponent to slow them down in their process to follow-up or continue on with their combination attack. My philosophy is to train to be perfect in the kwoon but be adaptable enough in application to deal with a imperfect setup or position, because in the street more than likely what you do (and they other guy) will be imperfect to some varying degree, depending on the skill of the person executing it.

James

Phil Redmond

12-20-2005, 08:22 PM

. . . . As a 20 year Sifu, did you find anything of merit, relevance, effectiveness or positive in the (I think) 14 videos displayed on that website. I hate to but I have to qualify (because of the nerds) – I don’t mean “oh, well he could have slipped the punch and unleashed “this” devastating technique (“this” being whatever **** the IW wants to make up at the time). I’m thinking more of the package.

Personally, I’d say I’m really impressed. The website is slick, it gives credentials, shows what it preaches and gives no bull****. I’d be interested to hear your take, Sifu.
I'm very impressed with the fact that they spar. All martial artists should train against a resisting opponent. And like you said. It's easy to pick out what could-a should-a been done after the fact, especially when one isn't in there giving and receiving blows. I give him and his school big props for that.

KPM

12-21-2005, 04:00 AM

Ultimatewingchun

12-21-2005, 06:46 AM

"Performance rules over precision. Boxing, MMA, and JKD have a more loose and informal 'structure' that does not necessarily rely on 'perfect execution.' When fighting or sparring a big factor is how well you can 'flow.' Trying to make too many things 'perfect' kills the flow." (KPM/Keith)

***THIS BRINGS UP A POINT that I constantly make to my students, but does not contradict what I've been saying about using a boxing/kickboxing framework (but still using wing chun central line principles and low kicking)...from longer distances.

Once you get to the close infighting range that I've been talking about - you do need to strive for near perfect execution, precisely because if you're that close to the opponent - then he can easily hit or grab you also.

Again I'm going to try and make the point - it's all about distance.

At longer ranges you can afford to have a looser structure; and in fact, it's more critical to have one from there - because you have more space to be accountable for, and therefore you can't afford to sacrifice seeing the forest in order to focus on the trees.

But from closer range you are less susceptible to kicks, for example, and can now afford to focus almost exclusively on what he's doing with his arms/hands.

sihing

12-21-2005, 09:23 AM

Hey Sihing!

when a student says something like this, I say it is obvious that you did not apply the Wing Chun correctly

---Ah! That's the rub and the usual response, isn't it! :eek:

Yeah I know that you cannot always perfectly apply everything learned and practiced from the kwoon in the reality world, but that rule and limitation apply to the other guy also, whether he is a boxer, MMA, JKD guy (but for some reason that is not a given on this forum, with them always being portrayed as perfect in execution and us WCners as imperfect most of the time. Just a observation).

---No. I don't think it is that at all. Performance rules over precision. Boxing, MMA, and JKD have a more loose and informal "structure" that does not necessarily rely on "perfect execution." When fighting or sparring a big factor is how well you can "flow." Trying to make too many things "perfect" kills the flow.

My philosophy is to train to be perfect in the kwoon but be adaptable enough in application to deal with a imperfect setup or position, because in the street more than likely what you do (and they other guy) will be imperfect to some varying degree, depending on the skill of the person executing it.

---I agree. So then how can you say that the situation that Kenton described was Wing Chun incorrectly applied? If you are training for the imperfect setup or position, then you should be training for such situations. When MMA first hit the scene lots of people said "they could never take me down!" And they got surprised! Sounds like you are doing something very similar saying "they could never get away from me once I made contact!" You may get some surprises from a resisting opponent as well! :) Performance over precision. Things must flow. I think we have too much emphasis on "perfect technique" and not enough on effective sparring against various types of opponents.

Keith

Hi Keith,

I think in the end, when you actually have to use the WC skills we learn in the kwoon on the street, executing perfect WC movements or applications is not the goal. Getting out safely is the goal. In practice if you don't TRY for perfect movement and application then anything less will hinder your progression in what you are learning IMO.

I honestly didn't try to give out the impression that I am perfect in anyway, sorry you saw it that way. But in regards to Kenton's or others remarks on this forum, I find it a common theme that the WC exponent is mostly regarded as imperfect, and when they try to apply what is considered a WC technique, someone on here always comes back and says that could easily be countered by this, that or the other thing. Well there are two sides to every coin, and the same applies to them also. Like I said in my previous post, more than likely the execution of things in actual combat will have errors in them, due to many factors. The only way I believe is to practice as precisely as possible in a less stressful atmosphere, then slowly increase that stress as time goes by. No matter what anyone says here, people do not train to kill one another in the class or outside the class, there are limitations to training in the Martial Arts, and you have to train as realistically as you can, but not killing yourself at the same time.

"when a student says something like this, I say it is obvious that you did not apply the Wing Chun correctly.

Ah! That's the rub and the usual response, isn't it!"

Keith, I never look at individuals regarding MA systems, I look at what the system/style teaches and if it is structured around efficiency and effectiveness, then it is therefore logical to assume that is will reflect this in actual application. As a teacher of Wing Chun, when a student performs incorrectly they are usually doing so by not sticking to the WC concept being practiced, so therefore YES, that is the usual response. Like I said earlier, because of the human factor, perfection is not always possible, but basic adherence to the systems concepts and principals is, as I and others in my association have proven this so. Sticking and following up is basic, unless of course the person retreating turns around and runs away. I would assume then that the fight is over and the aggressor changed his mind, therefore no more fighting required which is the desired result in the first place.

James

Ernie

12-21-2005, 09:46 AM

James -but basic adherence to the systems concepts and principals is, as I and others in my association have proven this so-

in the chrismas spirit i won't follow up on this one ;)

sihing

12-21-2005, 10:46 AM

James -but basic adherence to the systems concepts and principals is, as I and others in my association have proven this so-

in the chrismas spirit i won't follow up on this one ;)

Please do so, enlighten me.....

JR

stricker

12-21-2005, 12:51 PM

Appreciate what you have to say, Victor and others.

Could we say that each "martial art" way of thinking has limitations?
And that the rules of each system whether they be carved in stone (joke intended) need be learned, bent and broken?

Honestly, ever since I put on the gloves, I got enlightened! I couldn't believe what I was missing as far as application was concerned. We all know know that Muay Thai is "King of the Ring" as they call it. Is this because it works in sparring, the ring and the street? Where does my WC fall into this?

Does WC need help in different areas? As Victor has suggested and as seen in many clips, should we box/kickbox our way into that in-fighting range?

Now, I know in my experience that in the kwoon, everything works perfect!!! LAF.

But, the drills we do is with a committed attacker who bridges that gap for me, punches a minimal combo, maybe leaves shadows and that's it. Works great. But what about the WHAT IF senario. Where the attacker pops in, maybe you hit him-maybe you don't-maybe you hit him and it's not enough damage and he pops out and starts bobbing like a boxer?

Then I'm "almost" in a sparring situation where I need to clear the path and strike the centre.

Lots going through my mind, lots to write!!! All the best,
Kenton
hey kenton i feel what your saying!

i took the step from just doing wing chun to also training in mma, so doing boxing/muay thai sparring, stand up wrestling (pumelling, neck wrestling etc) and rolling on the gound.

enlightened may be a bit over the top hahaha but for me it was more of a slow steady but deep realisation. i think andrewS quote that lawrence has as his signature has really summed it up best so far (altho i'll give it a crack in a mo). Havent got it here, but look on any of lawrences post it was something like "wing chun isnt so limited that i cant do it when i box, wrestle or fight mma, and i'm not so limited as a student that i cant learn from boxing or wrestling".

i was thinking about it the other day, and basically the different ranges/styles of fighting are really training slightly different things. forget about this martial art or that martial art and free yo mind! Boxing is time and space, wing chun is energy and momentum and wrestling is pressure.

now sure wing chun deals in time and space too, but nowhere near the sick skills of a good boxer. wing chun also deals in pressure, but its not the same as wrestling, i think its really momentum we excel at dealing with, e.g. on the ground or in a heavy clinch your not really dealing with momentum but more slow 'grinding' pressure, so your slinky wing chun skills may not be applicable.

so hey im happy with wing chun and (thai) boxing and wrestling :D

get out and do some judo or wrestling too kenton ;)

Ernie

12-21-2005, 01:23 PM

Please do so, enlighten me.....

JR

James , you know you have next to no experience in dealing with the non wing chun element and speak on concept and hand me down info

do you really want to go down this road again ;)

sihing

12-21-2005, 04:51 PM

James , you know you have next to no experience in dealing with the non wing chun element and speak on concept and hand me down info

do you really want to go down this road again ;)

Hey Man,

I really don't know where you are going with this? I made the comment "perfection is not always possible, but basic adherence to the systems concepts and principals is, as I and others in my association have proven this so.” How does that comment suggest a superiority complex or some kind of false sense of reality? It is because you think the people tested against it are all WC kool aid drinkers with not enough experience to punch their way out of a paper bag? Well to me that would be a judgment plain and simple. The fact of the matter is that know one here knows really what any of us can apply, never mind myself.

If you think I have nothing to offer regarding real self defense or fighting, or that my information is just "copied and paste", please continue to believe that judgement you have made. To me it is unimportant to have your approval or anyone else's.

Peace;) ,

James

Matrix

12-21-2005, 04:58 PM

As to getting inside his elbows...if he's preventing that then work from outside his leading elbow - but always trying to stick and pressure in order to take his space away - while hitting without getting hit back - if possible.Victor,
I agree that you need to stay outside the elbows at that point in the exchange. I believe I said that. The problem with trying to 'hit' from there is that you will need to extend yourself to a point where you are vulnerable. You need to improve the odds in your favor. Letting him move around freely makes your job much harder. Stop that first, then you can hit. Until that point attempting to go in for the bit strike is much more of a gamble IMO.

Ernie

12-21-2005, 04:58 PM

chisauking

12-21-2005, 08:29 PM

If one must valididate one's fighting experience before they can post here, then I'm afraid no-one here qualifies.

Who have you fought of rupute Ernie? Have you ever fought someone that was genuinely trying his best to kill you, or intent on causing you major damage? Have you met some one that was totally ruthless and would take every opportunity to finish you without second thoughts or hesitation? Even if you had, how skilled was he?

Has anybody here fought a true Thai champion with no rules full out?...Or an opponent that out weighs you by 40lbs plus?...What about a BJJ black belt on the street? Or a pro boxer without the girly gloves? Tell me the truth now -- FULL OUT!

If no one can answer yes to any of the questions above, then I'm afraid your experience is just as valid as James'

There are so many variables in combat that it's very foolish to poo poo people's ideas simply because they may lack real world experience.

Mike Tyson had many fights on the streets, but what could he teach you about wc? Indeed, you could question Mike's experience in real combat... he coundn't even knock out Mitch Green in a street fight when he punched him so hard that he fractured his own hand!

In the end, who do we have to fight in order for us to be taken seriously on this forum?

Ultimatewingchun

12-21-2005, 08:36 PM

Jeez...I don't read Jame's posts anymore, but from what Ernie just said...I guess nothing's changed! :rolleyes:

...........................

"Victor,
I agree that you need to stay outside the elbows at that point in the exchange. I believe I said that. The problem with trying to 'hit' from there is that you will need to extend yourself to a point where you are vulnerable. You need to improve the odds in your favor. Letting him move around freely makes your job much harder. Stop that first, then you can hit. Until that point attempting to go in for the bit strike is much more of a gamble IMO." (Bill)

***NOT SURE if we're talkin' about the same thing, Bill. An example of what I mean by staying outside his elbows would be something like this:

I'm in a left front stance - he's in a right front stance. But it's important that I keep my lead foot slightly to the outside of his lead foot as I initiate the attack. (This helps preserve my ability to possibly outflank him and maybe even create a two-on-one hand to hand advantage...ie. - his left hand might temporarily get taken out of play).

If I'm not close enough yet for arm-to-arm contact - I might throw a lead right punch toward his right side and therefore try to feed off his response - or if I am within one quick half step of contact - my strategy then might be to try and jam up his lead right elbow with some combination of gum sao (like pak but more of a pinning/jamming energy than the slapping energy of pak)...with my lead left hand...and/or lop da...or even a very aggressive bong leading to pak/gum or lop da.

And the whole idea is not to let him move about freely - but to jam him up from outside his lead elbow - while hitting/arm locking/leg sweeping, etc. based upon whatever opportunity arises or openings I can make.

If he tries to step back - I'll follow him...either by maintaining a lead left leg or possibly taking a full step forward with my right leg now landing to the inside of his lead right leg - or possibly kicking with my right leg at his groin or abdomen...

In other words - I'm trying to jam him up, take his space away, and maintain the pressure on him.

And needless to say - this entire strategy might have to change in a heartbeat depending upon what he does.

Matrix

12-21-2005, 09:32 PM

And the whole idea is not to let him move about freely - but to jam him up from outside his lead elbow - while hitting/arm locking/leg sweeping, etc. based upon whatever opportunity arises or openings I can make.Victor,
Looks like we're in agreement here. :D

Matrix

12-21-2005, 09:34 PM

If one must valididate one's fighting experience before they can post here, then I'm afraid no-one here qualifies.It's not fighting experience per se, but rather experience with other martial arts and styles.

sihing

12-21-2005, 10:27 PM

It's not fighting experience per se, but rather experience with other martial arts and styles.

Well let me just say this. After 14yrs of teaching, wouldn't it be safe to say that one would meet a few Martial Artists outside of your own style, system, lineage? I wonder what happened during those meetings??

James

sihing

12-21-2005, 10:50 PM

James ,
you have admited
you do not spar
you don't go outside of your [Kwoon] and mix it up with even a poor little boxer
god for bid a good thai or MMA guy
yet you have all these definitive statements about the level of the quality of your Kwoon ,
with really nothing to base it on at all !
if were are talking Drills , or forms or isolated testing , then yep you know you $hit and i would never question you on it , hell i would listen and learn

but when it comes to getting in front of skilled dudes
please James
just be honest and speak from experience not what you ''THINK'' should happen that's all

that just adds on the to the same old wing chun arrogance that is killing the system all the way around :cool:

Yadda yadda yadda...this is becoming to predictable.....

Prove it. Please prove with absolute certainty to all those here my fighting skills. You can't because there has never been any personal contact between the two of us, so therefore the above is what, conjecture/guessing? Like I said please feel free to continue the judgement, feel free to believe what you want as this has no reflection on my or anyone's skills or performance in Wing Chun.

James

Ernie

12-21-2005, 10:55 PM

If .

Who have you fought of rupute Ernie? Have you ever fought someone that was genuinely trying his best to kill you, or intent on causing you major damage? Have you met some one that was totally ruthless and would take every opportunity to finish you without second thoughts or hesitation? Even if you had, how skilled was he?

---- grew up rough bro , been in allot of gang fights , been pistol whipped , jumped and had my face kicked in , had bottles broken on my head and then he tried to stab me with it , the lis is long if you have all day [ It's a LA thing man $hit can get real stupid out here !]] nothing i'm proud of just a reality filter i use , i have also done some of these things to people beaten dudes with bats , been locked up for stabbing a dude with a Sai [my karate days ] all before the age of 18 ,,,,, again nothing to be proud of .

Has anybody here fought a true Thai champion with no rules full out?...Or an opponent that out weighs you by 40lbs plus?...What about a BJJ black belt on the street? Or a pro boxer without the girly gloves? Tell me the truth now -- FULL OUT!

--- yes in my old gym there was Pro thai guys and semi pro boxers i sparred and once in a while it would get very ugly , i was often on the $hitty end of it[on my back or limping for weeks at a time] in the early days , I just re joined that gym to see if i can still work at that level and at my age ,,, not sure i'm a little scared of the idea but have to give it a go , see if my arm can hold up ,,,,, again just something inside , might be a huge mistake

If no one can answer yes to any of the questions above, then I'm afraid your experience is just as valid as James'

----[ James has stated he has very little experience in this area , yet he talks like he has the answers , that's the part that really sucks , if you don't know because you have no first hand experience then just say so , instead of typical WC answer page 62 in the WC bible ]

There are so many variables in combat that it's very foolish to poo poo people's ideas simply because they may lack real world experience.

----[ not really when you get in enough junk , you know that there are only to things luck and $hit changes ]

Mike Tyson had many fights on the streets, but what could he teach you about wc? Indeed, you could question Mike's experience in real combat... he coundn't even knock out Mitch Green in a street fight when he punched him so hard that he fractured his own hand!

[[[[ you are not mike so you point has no meaning ,,, so what i mean people borrrow other peoples experiences as if they were there own that is crap ]]

In the end, who do we have to fight in order for us to be taken seriously on this forum?

[[[ really just speak on what you as a individual have done , first hand , no one can take that away from you , it's your truth , really that's it ,,, there are allready to many ''stories'' in MA ]]]

oh and merry chrismas :D

sihing

12-21-2005, 10:58 PM

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun]Jeez...I don't read Jame's posts anymore, but from what Ernie just said...I guess nothing's changed! :rolleyes:
[QUOTE]

The same can be said about you Victor, for all to see on the main forum on the "San Da take 2" thread. Making more enemies again are ya........

Looking forward to more revealing video clips of your great Wing Chun/Wrestling skills...

This place is so clicky it is unreal....

James

Ernie

12-21-2005, 11:02 PM

Yadda yadda yadda...this is becoming to predictable.....

Prove it. Please prove with absolute certainty to all those here my fighting skills. You can't because there has never been any personal contact between the two of us, so therefore the above is what, conjecture/guessing? Like I said please feel free to continue the judgement, feel free to believe what you want as this has no reflection on my or anyone's skills or performance in Wing Chun.

James

Yadda yadda yadda...this is becoming to predictable.....
you have stated many times you are niether fighter nor have any real world experience
based on your own words ,,,,, you hang yourself everytime you speak on anything other then forms and testing

i'm only going by the facts 'YOU'' have given

if the truth hurts well you know the rest

;)

I would love !!!! for us to meet one day ,,,,, i get my passport in a few months so who knows :D

sihing

12-21-2005, 11:31 PM

oh and merry chrismas :D

Then all the books ever written about self help and learning from anothers experience mean nothing? They are useless tools? I disagree. People use others experiences all the time to relate it to their own lives. This is human nature and something good, if it is positive, but not to the point that they start believing it is their own experience also (identity problem), believing they are someone else. In life there can be good examples and bad examples, I've had both, and learned much from them to get me to where I am today. I'm not perfect by far, but I have lots to be proud of. There is no need to go through everything yourself, some lessons can be learned easier than that.

The point is you have judged another without ever really knowing what they have gone through themselves. You've mentioned before your past history and experiences, as yes they are much harsher than what I have ever experienced, almost opposite of my life experiences. I've been lucky to have never been in a life and death situation where I had to put it on the line. You would definitly have the edge in that department, but how many top line MA instructors have. The idea is to not teach people to kill or the absolute survival skills needed to get through a war, but teach them Martial Arts skills. To me WC skills translates to fighting skill of course but there is more than that. The idea is to avoid the whole idea of physical combat, VIOLENCE.. Resorting to using what we learn is the last resort. Maybe this is my forte.

Concerning this place, I teach people Wing Chun besides being a practitioner and it is something I know very well. This forum is a Wing Chun forum, therefore I have as much right to say what I feel as you do, regardless of what your experience is or if your skills in reality fighting surpass mine. I've never claimed absolutes, and if you reread my post you would see that. But since I'm a fantasy Martial Artist in your mind you can't.

Again, your fact is theory for me and visa versa for all of us. So please refrain from judging others you have never met because you believe in a certain way of things...You may or may not be the better fighter, but in the end if that is all you want then what do you have in the first place.

James

sihing

12-21-2005, 11:32 PM

Yadda yadda yadda...this is becoming to predictable.....
you have stated many times you are niether fighter nor have any real world experience
based on your own words ,,,,, you hang yourself everytime you speak on anything other then forms and testing

i'm only going by the facts 'YOU'' have given

if the truth hurts well you know the rest

;)

I would love !!!! for us to meet one day ,,,,, i get my passport in a few months so who knows :D

Your truth doesn't hurt because it is not mine....

It would have been nice to have met one day, but I am not so sure now....

Ernie

12-21-2005, 11:59 PM

the difference is i see fighting as life and death
not shades of colored sashes ,

how can you teach that which you have never fully experienced
you can read a book on flying a plane and even get in a simulater

but would i trust you to teach me to fly

hell no !

James often you make sweeping statements with nothing to support them besides faith

that's all i'm pointing at
not your personal skill or skill as a teacher or even passion for helping people

i would never wish my life on you or anyone , it sucked for a long time
but it keeps me honest to myself and what i say

may your bubble never be busted and every day bring you joy

perhaps it;s better if you never get to meet me ;)

TomasWTUK

12-22-2005, 02:03 AM

[QUOTE=sihing]Your truth doesn't hurt because it is not mine....

QUOTE]

James, I do not wish to get into a flaming session with you and having read many of your posts over time, you seem like a really genuine guy, but to be candid, the above statement sounds a little like the "ostrich approach".

I am no full contact competition fighter, but, I enjoy harder sparring with my training partners and we also attend periodic multi art training days so that we can pit our stuff against other styles just for the fun of it.

Sometimes, we get some knocks other times, we dish it out.

Words are words, but since we are all engaged in a fighting art, I would have to put my money on Ernie if I want advice about practical fighting.

It is more sensible IMO to trust in the tried and tested rather than the theoretical, if your life depends on it.

Best wishes,

Tom

KPM

12-22-2005, 04:05 AM

Hey Bill!

Letting him move around freely makes your job much harder. Stop that first, then you can hit. Until that point attempting to go in for the bit strike is much more of a gamble IMO.

---Let me repeat a point I tried to make to James. When the Gracies showed up on the scene all the stand-up fighters just thought....that won't work against me, they can't take me down, I won't let them shoot in on me. Now we have both you and James essentially saying in reference to a stand-up fighter who can move in and out well.....that work against me, they can't get away from me once I have contact, I won't let them get away from me once I've closed with them. Do you see the similarities? Just as it is extremely difficult to stop a good shooter from taking you down, it is also extremely difficult to control the range and keep a good boxer from disengaging and moving away. IMHO, the big thing that many Wing Chun fighters lack is this ability to freely and smoothly change the range or distance and work between in-fighting and out-fighting ranges smoothly....which is basically "boxing" with your Wing Chun.

Keith

chisauking

12-22-2005, 05:42 AM

Qoute: ---Let me repeat a point I tried to make to James. When the Gracies showed up on the scene all the stand-up fighters just thought....that won't work against me, they can't take me down, I won't let them shoot in on me. Now we have both you and James essentially saying in reference to a stand-up fighter who can move in and out well.....that work against me, they can't get away from me once I have contact, I won't let them get away from me once I've closed with them. Do you see the similarities? Just as it is extremely difficult to stop a good shooter from taking you down, it is also extremely difficult to control the range and keep a good boxer from disengaging and moving away. IMHO, the big thing that many Wing Chun fighters lack is this ability to freely and smoothly change the range or distance and work between in-fighting and out-fighting ranges smoothly....which is basically "boxing" with your Wing Chun.

Keith end qoute.

Based on Ernie's logic, on what PERSONAL experience do you qualify the above statment? Have YOU ever fought a black belt BJJ on the street full out? Have you ever challenged a skillful wing chun practitioner to a full out street fight, after you have insulted and attacked his family? (this part is very important in order to get the wc fighter to focus on his INTENT to really injure you)

NO! thought not. Then your ideas is just pass me down, third hand information based on your own ASSumptions, just like most others on this forum.

At the end of the day, all our experiences is questionable unless we have personally challenged the best to a full out fight ourselves. It's true that most would listen to someone with real world experience over someone with none....And herein lies the problem....NOBODY on this forum that I know of has had real world experience to a high level. NOBODY here has beaten a world class thai boxer on the street; nobody here has beaten a world class boxer to a full out fight. You may have sparred with a mediocre boxer, but what works in a ring environment may not work on the street; what may work on a mediocre boxer may not work on one that's good; what works on a good boxer may not work if the INTENTION of rage is in the equation.

Part-taking on this forum is just a bit of fun -- nothing more. If you want to learn wing chun or real world fighting.... well, this would be and should be your last port of call. Based on real world experience, no one here is worth listening to (that includes myself)

sau chi sau mo dak jow :)

Ernie

12-22-2005, 07:39 AM

Just to be clear and before this turns into a ernie against James thing :D

i just can't stand the WC assumption , BS
James just happens to often make such assumptions
this represents a very large part of the MA marketing machine

a good sales pitch and and answer for everything or situation , yet no training methods at that level

it's the idea i'm taking shots at more then the person

when you step out of your imaginary comfort zone you will see that things are not what you were told and do not work like the wing chun brochure said they would .

and it's not that the concepts in WC can not get you good ,,, just the training methods are lacking and the arrogance is of the scale ;)

Oh and kung po shrimp with fried rice sau , there i added my wise chinese saying !

sihing

12-22-2005, 10:55 AM

I think the biggest thing to remember is the fact that most of us have not had personal contact and never will with one another. Yeah, it would be great to do so in a perfect world, but for me this is not a priority and I'm not going to shell out big money to do so. So, if this is the case, theory is all we have to share on a forum like this. Ernie has lots to offer for sure, just like Phil does, Hendrik, Tony, etc...and in certain ways this is what I like about the forum. No one should take what we all say as gospel, because in the end you have to figure it out on your own. For example, back in 89' my Sifu left Thunder Bay to start a school in Calgary. So here I am 1 yr into the training regimen and my mentor leaves. Yes there were a couple of seniors left behind, but there was no comparison. Looking back on it this was a good thing, as the senior left behind to teach us would literally kick the sh!t out of us on a regular basis until we improved enough to know how to fight. It was good thing also for me because I had to figure most of it out alone initially, or until I had the opportunity to confirm things with Sifu.

For me this forum is a community of some sorts with people that have something in common. Yeah, some of us have strengths in areas that the others do not have, but we can all contribute in our own way. If your here to learn literally how to street fight, you are in the wrong place, as only personal instruction and practice can teach you that. IMO, since WC was created for combat, not something flowery or nice to watch, it translates to quality fighting skills if your WC skills are high. Not meaning we are all perfect, deadly fighters, because this is not what all of us are looking for.

James

P.S. No marketing BS either involved with any of my statements (once again Ernie your making a judgement). Some of us have a stronger faith in the system than others. Assumptions are the first mistake in a fight, so the idea of Assuming this or that in relation to a fight is false. The system works if you work the system. You have students, I have students, we all teach them something, some sort of way of movement/training/concept/application, so who's to say that your way works and mine doesn't without personal interaction and investigation? Have all of your students gone through the same sh!t you have? If not then are they are theoritians and useless tools? This is not about fantasy thinking, watching kung fu movies and hoping that it all comes out in the end. Hard work, understanding what you are doing and progressively testing it are some of the things needed to put it all together. Nobody is perfect, least of all me, but basic adherence to something is, once it is absorbed and understood.

ghostofwingchun

12-22-2005, 11:14 AM

Mr. Ernie I hope you don't mind my intruding into these discussions . . . but you provoked me into thinking . . . thank you.

Just to be clear and before this turns into a ernie against James thing :D

i just can't stand the WC assumption , BS
James just happens to often make such assumptions
this represents a very large part of the MA marketing machine
!

I am thinking that often we all make and rely on assumptions as premises. . . and it is a good thing when they are pointed out to us . . . because if premises are unsound then conclusion may not be true . . . in other post Mr. James used expression on paper . . . and on paper some things may seem perfectly reasonable . . . but real world evidence may show this not to be the case . . . so it is important I am thinking to constantly check and recheck our assumptions . . . and our reasoning process . . . and to test if they are sound or not . . . this is also why testing is so important I am thinking . . . and how the testing is done . . . poor testing leads to unreliable results . . . which can lead to reliance on poor data . . . please understand I am not taking sides in this particular discussion for anyone . . . just commenting on topic of assumptions. One thing I learn about any sort of testing . . . I do research for job so this is my life. . . lol . . . is do not fall in love with your ideas . . . or you may end up very unhappy . . . instead fall in love with process of testing . . . process of research . . . which is process of learning.

Thanks,

Ghost

couch

12-22-2005, 11:25 AM

Thanks to all for your thoughts and suggestions.

Looking back on the events of the sparring and after talking to my Sifu, I've come to realize the problems I'm facing. And since we're all about sharing our opinions and experiences, here we go:
1. I didn't give enough forward pressure. I didn't hit my opponent when I had the chance.
2. I have a hard time hitting someone. I believe that getting hit enough by an opponent will cause me not to want to get hit. I need to find that inner hunger to destroy my opponent.
3. I'm scared to get hit. It's gonna hurt, but I've got to learn somewhere. I've lived in the no-contact, stop-one-inch-before-karate bubble too long.
4. I've never received such a stimulus before. In the kwoon, we're friendly. We drink rum. Talk about our day. There's no real threat. I need to spar and take it to the closest level where my friend and I won't be too damaged without taking it to the local bar. I've never seen "the shoot." Just had people theorize or tell me it's easy...just do this. I've never felt a strong right hook and had it send me realing backwards looking out for basement furniture.

Basically, my blinders came off and my bubble got popped. Granted...I don't poke my friend in the eyes with the deadly kung-fu eye poke...or rip his throat out...or break his knee. But I should be able to apply the Wing Chun as best as I can in this friendly environment. I need to hit my opponent. Disrupt his balance. And not be afraid to get my block knocked. I need to practise getting this stimulus that I've never had before and find that fire inside to want to win.

Some people seem to think that coming to martial arts is not about fighting. Wing Chun is teaching you how to fight. Fighting isn't pretty. It's brutal. If you wan't to be a football player, you can talk about the plays and go to practise, but you need to get your head in the game to really know what it feels like. Throwing a football in practise is different that when you throw a football when a 6'6" 240lb guy is trying to kill you. How come when it comes to fighting...to get better...we don't fight?

All the best,
Kenton

ghostofwingchun

12-22-2005, 12:56 PM

Mr. Kenton I applaud you . . . not because I agree with everything you say . . . but that you are learning about yourself . . . and your abilities. . . this may be more important than anything else. I am thinking that wc or martial arts can be for what ever goal you want . . . so do not concern yourself with what goals others have . . . if your goal is to become good fighter that is enough . . . keep learning in that direction . . . work with others that share same goal . . . talk with others that have same goal . . . but please do not think that others with other goals are wrong . . . they are going on different path . . . diversity is is wonderful thing. One last thing . . . it is great you had this experience since it will also allow you to better understand others . . . who may be as you were . . . without that sort of experience . . . keep this in mind when dealing with others . . . it helps us all I am thinking to remember what it was like . . . before we knew better . . .lol. Thanks so much for sharing your experience with us . . . I found it very thought provoking.

Thanks,

Ghost

Matrix

12-22-2005, 03:12 PM

Well let me just say this. After 14yrs of teaching, wouldn't it be safe to say that one would meet a few Martial Artists outside of your own style, system, lineage? I wonder what happened during those meetings??You shared some tea??

Ernie

12-22-2005, 03:21 PM

Kenton ,
you were my inspiration to get involved in this thread :D
you have reached that place that many of us have , we took the stuff for a test ride [all the prety concepts and idea's] all the things we can pull of with great ''skill'' in school even when out buddies were going all out .

yet the second you left the womb , the cold hard world gave you a wake up call ,and man i am totally proud of you !

you are now finally really begining to ''learn'' based on your individual abilties . you could spend 20 years caught in the school system reach the highest level
and never ''wake up''

your post have been the only real honest thing i have read on this forum in a very long time , thank you for sharing .

and keep moving ahead once you can ''see'' no ones sales pitch or BS will ever have a hold on you again .

James ,
i don't have students , i just coach people [no strings attached]
and they ''will'' all have to spar full contact and mix it up with other people as part of there training , and i will require them to leave the nest and go out on there own
i don't need to keep the rice bowl full and have x amount of ''students '' to make the rent payment ;) i'm not a baby sitter :D

different strokes for different folks

Ghost - i don't like to speak with people that hide behind fake names

there should be a disclosure under peoples post [mine as well in some cases ]
what was written was simply an opinion and the writer may in fact have absolutely no experience in the matter but assumes and hope things will work out this way
please don't try this at home :D

Matrix

12-22-2005, 03:23 PM

Now we have both you and James essentially saying in reference to a stand-up fighter who can move in and out well.....that work against me, they can't get away from me once I have contact, I won't let them get away from me once I've closed with them. Keith,
That's not quite what I'm saying. I'm saying that it should be your objective to take the opponents balance before you go in too deep for the sake of a hit. How successfully you can do this may be another matter. ;) I would stay outside until I could. As Kenton's experience shows, going in too soon can come at a high price. That's all I'm saying. He may move and get away, but until I feel I've put the odds more in my favor I'll bide my time.

Does that make any sense??
I'm certainly willing to admit that I am wrong if that's the case.

Matrix

12-22-2005, 03:44 PM

Kenton,
What an excellent post.
Believe me, you are not alone in feeling this way.
Great observations, great questions. :cool:

Ultimatewingchun

12-22-2005, 06:23 PM

Very interesting dynamic that chisauking was using to argue his case:

He defends someone's rants who admittedly (James) doesn't do ANY hard sparring by saying that unless you've fought a Thai or Boxing or BJJ CHAMPION on the street - who's trying to KILL you...

unless you've done that - you've no right to take someone to task who thinks he knows everything but doesn't even spar...much less fight for real on the street.

BUT THERE ARE AT LEAST A MILLION SHADES OF GRAY in-between the two extremes - and chisauking tries to make believe they don't exist! :confused: ;)

Like I said...some things never change. :p

KPM

12-23-2005, 03:54 AM

Keith,
That's not quite what I'm saying. I'm saying that it should be your objective to take the opponents balance before you go in too deep for the sake of a hit. How successfully you can do this may be another matter. ;) I would stay outside until I could. As Kenton's experience shows, going in too soon can come at a high price. That's all I'm saying. He may move and get away, but until I feel I've put the odds more in my favor I'll bide my time.

Does that make any sense??
I'm certainly willing to admit that I am wrong if that's the case.

Gotcha Bill! :) No problems!

Keith

ghostofwingchun

12-23-2005, 07:45 AM

Ernie

12-23-2005, 08:22 AM

Mr. Ernie it is your right to speak with who ever you want to . . . if you do not wish to speak with me I am sorry for that . . . I do not wish to give out personal information over internet for many reasons . . . including that there are crazies out there . . . and I do not know any of you either . . . I would hope that how I comport self and the content of what I say would be enough for people to weigh what I say . . . if I am troll or if I am serious . . . I do not know you . . . I do not even know if Ernie is real name . . . if it is using this real name does not make your views more or less valid . . . what you say stands on its own merit . . . at least to me . . . I would hope you would give me same chance . . . but if not I understand . . . we all have our own standards to live by . . . and in any case I wish you well.

Thanks,

Ghost

Ghost ,
psssssssssst i see dead people !
Ernie Barrios is my real name http://wingchuncoach.com/ is my website with all my information ,

there are to many fakes and handbag swingers that hide behind fake names so they can spit venom

or pretend to be more then what they are ,

there allot of very cool and honest people on this forum , hell I will go a few rounds with James because he has the balls to put his stuff out in the open and even if I disagree I have to respect that .

so don't take it personal , bro , lady or apparition
but more then likely your just a reincarnation of some existing member hiding behind a ...MR. .... typing ....... pattern....... :p

ghostofwingchun

12-23-2005, 08:40 AM

Thank you Ernie . . . since you don't like the Mr. . . . for responding to me even though you do not like talking to screen names . . . I do not pretend to be anything here . . . I do not claim to be anything at all so how can I pretend to be something . . lol . . . I am what I do . . . some one that asks questions and discusses things in hope of getting better understanding . . . I do not try to spread venom . . . and will not say anything bad about anyone . . . if I did these things whether I use real name or not I would expect people to treat me the same . . . I could lie and give a name and personal info to make you think I was being open. . . but I prefer to be honest . . . it is interesting that while I am paranoid about giving out information over internet you are paranoid that I am reincarnation of existing member . . . lol . . . it is nice to know we at least share being paranoid . . . I will not bother you again since this is your request.

Thanks,

Ghost

Ultimatewingchun

12-23-2005, 10:14 AM

Phil Redmond

12-23-2005, 11:24 AM

Hey Ghost...

You're seeing things in Ernie's remarks that just aren't there. Is he really saying that because you refuse to give your real name that he doesn't want to communicate with you again?

He said that he doesn't "like" talking to people without names - but that doesn't mean he won't do it from time to time! :cool:
Hi Victor, I'll have to side with Ernie on this one. I prefer to post on a group that requires people to use real names. I'm very suspicious of a person that posts and hides their name. Adults have to be responsible for their actions. People who post anonomously avoid that responsibility. I belong to one WC group that requires members to post their school, lineage, Sifu's name, and their real name. This probably isn't perfect but it's easy enough to contact a Sifu and ask if said person is a student or not.
Phil

stricker

12-23-2005, 11:31 AM

hey ernie your site is cool as hell. i liked especially that you were using focus mitts etc which i dont think are really a traditional wing chun wing chun thing but since doing a lot of thai padwork i think its really immensely beneficial for any martial art that strikes, especially the coaching aspect of it. i just really liked your whole approach etc.

also im more than happy to private message anyone who i am where i train etc (already pmed a few people so they can vouch for that) but i dont like it out in public as people like to attack things and i dont want to make my wing chun teacher or mma coach look bad for what i post on the internet. its out of respect.

ghostofwingchun

12-23-2005, 11:53 AM

If I misunderstood Ernie I apologize to him . . . thank you Mr. Parlati for pointing out my error. I do not want to belabor this . . . but how does using real name assume any responsibility? . . . I can use real name and say all kinds of nonsense . . . make all kinds of trouble . . . and what can you do about it knowing real name . . . do you think real name will stop me if I want to do these things . . . I am all for code of conduct on forums . . . so that civility is maintained . . . because I think civility is all important . . . and person who behave poorly can be dealt with . . . but I do not want to give out personal information to people I don't know . . . how do I know some person on forum or lurking isn't a crazy . . . a collegue had some real trouble like this . . . internet is world wide . . . I am thinking that my questions and views and behavior can stand on their own . . . if this seems suspicious to some then I am sorry . . . but this is how I feel.

Thanks,

Ghost

Knifefighter

12-23-2005, 06:04 PM

Every time I read one of sihing's posts, I want to jump on a plane, go to the class he teaches and tell his students they are wasting their money.

sihing

12-23-2005, 06:20 PM

Every time I read one of sihing's posts, I want to jump on a plane, go to the class he teaches and tell his students they are wasting their money.

Well since I have recently moved back home here to Thunder Bay, Ontario, I'm sure as a California boy you would love it here with the 10' high snow banks, lol...
I'm sure they would welcome you in and welcome you out politely..

James

chisauking

12-23-2005, 06:34 PM

Victor sez: He defends someone's rants who admittedly (James) doesn't do ANY hard sparring by saying that unless you've fought a Thai or Boxing or BJJ CHAMPION on the street - who's trying to KILL you...

Not at all. I wasn't defending James as much as our freedom to speak on this forum -- with or withour sparring expereince. Ernie cited that only people with sparring or real fighting experience (personal experience) should post on this forum...I simply pointed out that if that were the criteria, then nobody is qulaified to post here, since nobody here has beaten anybody of repute, and the attributes aquired from so-called sparring sessions is questionable in a REAL fight.

Victor sez: unless you've done that - you've no right to take someone to task who thinks he knows everything but doesn't even spar...much less fight for real on the street.

That's my point. Who on this forum has actually fought for real on the street with a highly skillful fighter with full intent? Have you, Victor? If so, what was his name and style?

Victor sez: BUT THERE ARE AT LEAST A MILLION SHADES OF GRAY in-between the two extremes - and chisauking tries to make believe they don't exist!

Again, not at all. With me, I'm not interested in in-betweens; I'm only interested in whether it works or not. Everybody that knows me knows I don't make excuses. Unlike many, I don't delude myself that the results I obtain from so-called sparring with boxing gloves, padding and a bird cage on my head would be replicated in a real fight with no rules, bare knuckles, real INTENT, and my hard Dr. Martin boots. The results would never be the same.

My main point I'm trying to get across is, this forum is only for a bit of fun for fellow wing chun people. If we start to impose conditions of only experienced fighters with actual personal fight experience should post here, then most -- if not all -- wouldn't qualify.

In my 20 years' plus in wing chun, this journey has taught me, if nothing else, that there are many paths leading to the same destination. Just because James haven't followed your path doesn't mean he will never reach the destination. Indeed, he may even get there before you.

besides, if you don't even read Jame's post any more, how can you argue any points he has stated?

Don't tell me -- you have been secretly reading his post even though you don't find them interesting and informative ;) :D :D :D

Ernie

12-23-2005, 06:55 PM

cking
[[Not at all. I wasn't defending James as much as our freedom to speak on this forum -- with or withour sparring expereince. Ernie cited that only people with sparring or real fighting experience (personal experience) should post on this forum...I simply pointed out that if that were the criteria, then nobody is qulaified to post here, since nobody here has beaten anybody of repute, and the attributes aquired from so-called sparring sessions is questionable in a REAL fight]]

please let me clarify ,
I said don't speak on what you don't know ,,, meaning when I see people saying text book WC crap like well if the boxer does this I will do that ,,,, and they **** well know they have never and will never even jump in a ring to test it out ,,,it just makes me sick !
and they go on and on and on and on just quoting the WC bible ,,,,, again with no first hand experience in the matter
it's like dude , shut up long enough to find out for yourself ,,,,,, then kick some real life knowledge

that's it really or at least have the common decency to say well I have never really tried this but it is supposed to work this way and I assume it should turn out like this ,,,,,,

just be honest

Sticker ----- thanks buddy

Knife fighter ---- dude you just straight bust me up ,,,, hey my arm is getting a little better ,,, so we should get together in the future ,,, I could use a wake up call

James --- my snowboard is right in front of me as I type this !!!! sorry to keep bangin on you , it's more the idea then the person

Knifefighter

12-23-2005, 09:10 PM

Not at all. I wasn't defending James as much as our freedom to speak on this forum -- with or withour sparring expereince. Ernie cited that only people with sparring or real fighting experience (personal experience) should post on this forum...I simply pointed out that if that were the criteria, then nobody is qulaified to post here, since nobody here has beaten anybody of repute, and the attributes aquired from so-called sparring sessions is questionable in a REAL fight.

What is frustrating about his posts to those of us in the "clique" that regularly mixes it up with other fighters is that he never even spars in his own school (let alone going out and scrapping with others), yet he tries to talk with smug authority on how all his theoretical techniques will do against other styles.

Those of us who do regularly mix it up know that a large number of theoretical techniques go out the window when you are going all out against someone who is also doing the same. The longer one goes without getting in there and trying things out, the further one goes into the realm of theory and the larger the number of theoretical techniques that don't work becomes.

It's fine if the theoretician wants to speak from a theoretical point of view, but the thoeretician should stay in the realm of theory rather than trying to preach about what works and what doesn't to those who are actually doing.

Ernie:
I've got a few injuries of my own to heal up over the next month or so after several weekends of crashing dirt bikes, fighting at the Dog Bros. and doing a grappling tourney. I'll probably be back into the mix full speed in February or early March.

Ultimatewingchun

12-23-2005, 10:28 PM

"Victor sez: BUT THERE ARE AT LEAST A MILLION SHADES OF GRAY in-between the two extremes - and chisauking tries to make believe they don't exist!

Again, not at all. With me, I'm not interested in in-betweens; I'm only interested in whether it works or not. Everybody that knows me knows I don't make excuses. Unlike many, I don't delude myself that the results I obtain from so-called sparring with boxing gloves, padding and a bird cage on my head would be replicated in a real fight with no rules, bare knuckles, real INTENT, and my hard Dr. Martin boots. The results would never be the same." (chisauking)

***AND ANYBODY who knows me knows that I've had many a real fight on the street...which is precisely why we train with full protective gear in the school - because when you're going FULL CONTACT - and you're kicking full power while wearing shoes/sneakers - and you're punching full power (including headshots) with thin gloves...it's very easy for injuries to occur.

Too easy.

The street teaches you humility and prudence when it comes to REAL sparring.

Not the B.S. "drills" that some people are content to do - and then they come on here and "theorize" as if they really know what they're talking about when it comes to applying wing chun to real fighting.

That's the whole point. No one is saying that people can't comment about this or that - but they should not try to pull the wool over other people's eyes.

KPM

12-24-2005, 05:10 AM

My main point I'm trying to get across is, this forum is only for a bit of fun for fellow wing chun people. If we start to impose conditions of only experienced fighters with actual personal fight experience should post here, then most -- if not all -- wouldn't qualify.

In my 20 years' plus in wing chun, this journey has taught me, if nothing else, that there are many paths leading to the same destination.

I gotta agree with CSK here. :) We are all here to have fun discussing things and to learn from each other when we can. No one should be here under the pretence of "representing" some specific lineage or teacher. No one should be excluded just because they have less knowledge or less experience in some particular area. No one should be taking the "kung fu teacher" attitude with others here. But then as Victor has pointed out, everyone should be honest about where they are coming from as well. If we all did the same thing and thought the same way the discussions would be rather boring! :eek: Diversity is key! I am becoming somewhat "disillusioned" with the "traditional" approach to learning and training. Does that mean I want the "traditional" approach to go away? Absolutely not! Different strokes for different folks! There's room for everyone. Just be honest in everything you do. There....Christmas lecture over! :D

Keith

sihing

12-24-2005, 08:25 AM

What is frustrating about his posts to those of us in the "clique" that regularly mixes it up with other fighters is that he never even spars in his own school (let alone going out and scrapping with others), yet he tries to talk with smug authority on how all his theoretical techniques will do against other styles.

Those of us who do regularly mix it up know that a large number of theoretical techniques go out the window when you are going all out against someone who is also doing the same. The longer one goes without getting in there and trying things out, the further one goes into the realm of theory and the larger the number of theoretical techniques that don't work becomes.

It's fine if the theoretician wants to speak from a theoretical point of view, but the thoeretician should stay in the realm of theory rather than trying to preach about what works and what doesn't to those who are actually doing.

Ernie:
I've got a few injuries of my own to heal up over the next month or so after several weekends of crashing dirt bikes, fighting at the Dog Bros. and doing a grappling tourney. I'll probably be back into the mix full speed in February or early March.

It's fine to believe what you want about someone, but if no personal contact has never been made, then how do you really know? Are you really that c0cky to believe with 100% accuracy that you could defeat me in combat? I don't think anyone can say that really. For me I really use this stuff when it is a life and death situation. When I played competitive sports I was the worst practice player but rose to the occasion when it mattered. That is my personality and the way I am, I know this about myself. Sparring would not bring out this intensity for me, so therefore the act of doing it would not be as helpful as it is for others. People that comment here have to realize the fact of the matter is I don't spar anymore, but that does not mean I NEVER HAVE, or that situations don't come up that require me to prove what I have to offer. Its almost like people think I sit here at the computer all day, thinking about WC and reading about what it is all about then recite what I've learned on here, lol. You know I do teach the stuff, have done so for 14yrs. Met a ton of people from all walks of life and many Martial Artist from lots of different styles. When this happens, my first impression is NOT to prove WC superiority, but to get to know the person and help them anyway I can, make a friend. I could care less what they think about WC. Now, concerning sparring and reality training, I'm not saying that what some do on here is not a good thing. Putting yourself and what you do on the line and truly testing it is a good thing, but not for everyone on a daily or weekly basis. How many times have we heard about injuries and such happening to those that follow this doctrine. So you spar hard for 2 months but then get injured and take 5 months off, with limited ability to train. To me this is not efficient, and using mass amounts of protective gear doesn't make the situation better, but less real IMO.

When it comes to being a "Theoretian", all of us here whatever we write is just that, theories. One person’s fact is another's theory till they prove it is fact for them. Plus in this medium, internet forum, what else is there? Now one can prove to another on here right now what they say is truth? Until people meet person to person, all you can do here is theorize, based on your experience and knowledge.

James

Jeff Bussey

12-24-2005, 09:23 AM

sihing

12-24-2005, 09:40 AM

Hey James,
Just to put in my 2 cents.
One of the things that I've gained from going full out with protective gear is that my punches are not as hard as what I *thought* they were before trying it. The padding and gear is a neccesity so we can limit our injuries.

For some reason, not talking about you specifically, most people have an idea in their head of what their punch or kick would do. When you test it out, that's when you realize that your thoughts are just that, ....thoughts and then it's time to get to work and fix it.

That's just my experience, not talking down to anyone.

Another thing is my stamina sucks so that's what I'm working on :D

J

I think that is correct thinking Jeff, overestimating your abilities (too extreme to one side) is something to try and avoid. For example hitting stationary things like the Mok Jong or heavy bag tell you that the power is there, but hitting a moving object is a different story, especially when that moving object has a brain. That is where the tactics and set up come into play IMO. The idea is the timing and if you can setting up of your opponent. Of course I realize this is sometimes easier said than done.

James

chisauking

12-24-2005, 09:47 AM

Jeff sez: One of the things that I've gained from going full out with protective gear is that my punches are not as hard as what I *thought* they were before trying it. The padding and gear is a neccesity so we can limit our injuries.

If you need to fully pad up and spar to realise your power limits, you are in deep ding dong!

Padding up with boxing gloves, shin proctectors, and titty pads may help injuries, but at the same time it would distort the reality of truth. In other words, you trying to replicate a false image, and, worst still, embedding false responces to your subconscious. When those false experiences are called upon in a real situation, you will be confronted with the reality of truth....but guess what? Boo.hoo.hoo it is toooooooo late! Learnt responces doesn't work!

Mind you, sparring in this manner is really good for your cardiovascular system.

sau chi sau mo dak jow

Jeff Bussey

12-24-2005, 10:16 AM

chisauking
So how do you know if your punch or kick will have what it takes?

J

Ultimatewingchun

12-24-2005, 03:55 PM

"Padding up with boxing gloves, shin proctectors, and titty pads may help injuries, but at the same time it would distort the reality of truth. In other words, you trying to replicate a false image, and, worst still, embedding false responces to your subconscious. When those false experiences are called upon in a real situation, you will be confronted with the reality of truth....but guess what? Boo.hoo.hoo it is toooooooo late! Learnt responces doesn't work!"

***PURE RUBBISH !!! :eek:

The image is ten times closer to reality fighting than pulling one's punches and kicks down to semi-hard, light, (or perhaps no) contact. Unless you've been punched and kicked by someone using FULL power...

And unless you've done those things yourself...EMBEDDED FALSE RESPONSES IS INDEED THE NAME OF YOUR GAME!

The only alternative is to just simply fight all out without any gear - in which case the school will close down very quickly since virtually everyone will have incapacitating injuries.

lawrenceofidaho

12-24-2005, 04:15 PM

chisauking
So how do you know if your punch or kick will have what it takes?
Hard sparring, or fighting against a conditioned and skilled opponent is the only way to know if you have what it takes. -Anything else is pure speculation or fantasy.

Seeing CSK's obvious didain for use of protective gear (such as; mouthpieces, boxing headgear, groin cups, and MMA gloves) he either;

1) Never spars (though maybe he considers chi-sau & pattycake drills to be sparring).

2) Wants us to believe that he "spars" in the Bloodsport / Kumite / Van-Damme style.

:rolleyes:

-Lawrence

chisauking

12-24-2005, 07:13 PM

Lawernce sez: Hard sparring, or fighting against a conditioned and skilled opponent is the only way to know if you have what it takes. -Anything else is pure speculation or fantasy.

May I ask, which conditioned and skilled fighter have YOU sparred with, and what did you do to convince youself that YOU had what it takes?

Your reply would surely help this fantasy fighter

lawrenceofidaho

12-24-2005, 08:47 PM

which conditioned and skilled fighter have YOU sparred with?
Within the past few months:

Matt May (Idaho State Golden Gloves Boxing Champion at 152lbs & Competitive Muay Thai fighter)

Jacen Flynn (My Jiu-Jitsu coach)
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterid=337

Taz Warner (MMA fighter who also won his debut bout as a pro boxer 13 weeks ago)
http://myweb.cableone.net/jango/team.html

and at least a dozen other competitive MMA, Boxing, & Muay Thai fighters from the amateur ranks, not to mention the non-competitive guys I train with, -many of whom are extremely tough and very experienced (including Justin, aka "AmanuJRY").

what did you do to convince youself that YOU had what it takes?
I managed not to get knocked out, beatdown, or (excessively) submitted....... I had enough answers in the stand-up, clinch, and ground games to maintain a somewhat respectable level of competitiveness in most of those situations. -With the exception of Jacen Flynn, who could tap me out or put me to sleep pretty quickly. (Jacen is a very high level fighter and could be a force in the UFC middleweight division if he focused his training toward that end.)

-Lawrence

p.s. - I walk around at 155lbs, but would fight competitively at 141-155, depending on the sport.

chisauking

12-24-2005, 09:51 PM

Lawernce sez: I managed not to get knocked out, beatdown, or (excessively) submitted....... I had enough answers in the stand-up, clinch, and ground games to maintain a somewhat respectable level of competitiveness in most of those situations. -With the exception of Jacen Flynn, who could tap me out or put me to sleep pretty quickly. (Jacen is a very high level fighter and could be a force in the UFC middleweight division if he focused his training toward that end.)

So, basically, you are telling me that because you didn't get knocked out or submitted, you found out what it takes? Sorry if I find this extremely funny, but I fail to see how you actually learnt anything about real life combat from your experiences above. A man running away from a fight would have obtained the same result as yourself without so much bother! And none would be the wiser in regards to their power or ability.

Look, Lawernce, I think you had better do a little soul searching and honestly question yourself how your way of so-called hard sparring is more 'truthful' in assessing your real fighting skills than James'

Ultimatewingchun

12-25-2005, 12:49 AM

"So, basically, you are telling me that because you didn't get knocked out or submitted, you found out what it takes? Sorry if I find this extremely funny, but I fail to see how you actually learnt anything about real life combat from your experiences above. A man running away from a fight would have obtained the same result as yourself without so much bother! And none would be the wiser in regards to their power or ability."

***YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING, chisauking...!!! :eek: :confused:

If you actually think that someone who's sparred the kinds of people that Lawrence just described HASN'T LEARNED A MULTITUDE OF THINGS that the man who ran away will NEVER learn...then...

Dare I say it ???

You're more deluded than James is! :rolleyes:

Jeff Bussey

12-25-2005, 03:20 AM

chisauking,
If you advocate running away then why even take a martial art.
Just practice running.

So if you were to get into a fight, what would you bring with you?
chi sau
drills
...

That's a serious question, I'm not making fun.

J

KPM

12-25-2005, 05:19 AM

This time I gotta agree with Vic!!! :) You can learn alot and go far by doing "softwork." But eventually you have to put in the "hardwork" as well to balance out.

Keith

"Padding up with boxing gloves, shin proctectors, and titty pads may help injuries, but at the same time it would distort the reality of truth. In other words, you trying to replicate a false image, and, worst still, embedding false responces to your subconscious. When those false experiences are called upon in a real situation, you will be confronted with the reality of truth....but guess what? Boo.hoo.hoo it is toooooooo late! Learnt responces doesn't work!"

***PURE RUBBISH !!! :eek:

The image is ten times closer to reality fighting than pulling one's punches and kicks down to semi-hard, light, (or perhaps no) contact. Unless you've been punched and kicked by someone using FULL power...

And unless you've done those things yourself...EMBEDDED FALSE RESPONSES IS INDEED THE NAME OF YOUR GAME!

The only alternative is to just simply fight all out without any gear - in which case the school will close down very quickly since virtually everyone will have incapacitating injuries.

Matrix

12-25-2005, 10:15 AM

So if you were to get into a fight, what would you bring with you?
chi sau
drillsThe good habits and skills that you learned while training in chi sau and drills. As an analogy, when you use weights to develop strength and then you go to apply that strength, you don't need to go back to the gym and pick up the weights. Don't confuse the tools with end results.

lawrenceofidaho

12-25-2005, 10:53 AM

So, basically, you are telling me that because you didn't get knocked out or submitted, you found out what it takes?
I train MMA at Gold's in Boise, and I have some great coaches there. I'm also lucky to have opportunities to workout alongside good fighters like Matt May and Taz Warner (who I mentioned above) that are very cool and helpful guys who are willing to share what they've learned with less experienced people. Overall, it's a great environment to learn about realistic combat, -but if a guy with your attitude went in on a given night with "something to prove" about classical Wing Chun, you get put to sleep, real quick.......

Sorry if I find this extremely funny, but I fail to see how you actually learnt anything about real life combat from your experiences above.
Every time I spar I'm learning new things, and it's especially cool to recognize something I would have gotten caught with weeks before, but know better now to keep from being so vulnerable to it. That's why I feel I'm on the right track, -not because I can beat the top fighters at my gym (which I can't).

I think you had better do a little soul searching and honestly question yourself how your way of so-called hard sparring is more 'truthful' in assessing your real fighting skills than James'
I always question and look for better ways, and this is the best I've got so far.

-Lawrence

Jeff Bussey

12-25-2005, 03:46 PM

Hey Bill,
How's it going?
I agree, I would bring my training with me, but my training has changed or should I say put into perspective after sparring or any of the encounters that I've had.

I never said, or ment to come off, as a big sparring guy. I just don't have the time. But I used to spar a lot, and that gave me a different look on things.

Also to use your analogy on strength, when you go to the gym and lift weights to develop strength and then you try to do a chin up, but can't :eek: that put's things into perspective :D

That's the kind of comparison that I was trying to make.

J

Matrix

12-25-2005, 04:30 PM

Jeff,

All is well. I'm really looking forward to a good year in 2006.
I hope our paths cross so that we can compare notes.

All the best to you and your family.
Merry Christmas!

Jeff Bussey

12-25-2005, 06:03 PM

Hey Bill,
Thanks!
and a Merry Christmas to you.
I'm hoping my training is going to really pick up this year. Looking forward to it.
I'm sure we'll meet up at a seminar or something :)

J

chisauking

12-25-2005, 08:14 PM

First of all, let me state that I'm not against sparring -- just some of the approaches towards it.

Sparring with boxing gloves, shin and titty pads, and a bird cage over your head may sometimes advance your skills.....but it would also instill bad habits to your real world fighting skills in other areas. More accurately, I openly laugh at people that don't go BEYOND this low level format of sparring, but at the same time critercize others for not training in a REALISTIC manner (what a joke!)

In response to my comment regarding fully padded up sparring, Lawernce said you required this form of sparring to find out what it takes, and he said he found out what it takes by sparring with certain individuals that didn't knock him out or submitted him too easy. Lawernce also stated that anything else is pure conjucture.

I tried to explain that this method of evaulating one's real fighting skills is just as reliable as Jame's no sparring model, and anyone running away from a fight would have obtained the same conclusion as Lawernce, since running away would also mean you were either not knock out or submitted -- 2 aspects which Lawernce stated that found for him what it takes.

Lawernce, unless you can be more specific, I'm afraid I have to stand by what I'd said -- your method of gauging your real world fighting skills is no more accurate than Jame's and certainly just as speculative.

Ultimatewingchun

12-26-2005, 09:07 AM