Late Grand Master Wei & Present Grand Master Shyun

[ChaoticMantis]

I had the opportunity of visiting http://www.babutanglang.com. It is a nicely designed website and very informative. I comment the site developers on a job well done.

There were some impressive old rare video clips of the late Grand Master Wei and his student (Master Wang Jie).

One clip that stands out is Grand Master Wei performing 摘要一路拳 (zhai yao yi lu quan). Grand Master Wei in his 80’s was still performing with great speed and power. It reminded me of when Master Shyun was teaching me that same fist form. Master Shyun performed the fist form movements exactly as how Grand Master Wei was performing it in the video clip. I am proud to be part of the 8 Step traditional lineage that was taught to me and my other classmates by Grand Master Shyun and him by the late Grand Master Wei.

To all my 8 Step family, let us all continue to form a common goal and help proliferate the 8 Step Preying Mantis style as was started by the late Grand Master Wei and continuing by the present Grand Master Shyun.

:)

[EarthDragon]

Chaotic mantis,
I realize you have been out of the loop for a while but some of the things you have said confuse me a little bit. Could you please explain them? thanks in advance.

you said To all my 8 Step family, let us all continue to form a common goal and help proliferate the 8 Step Preying Mantis style as was started by the late Grand Master Wei and continuing by the present Grand Master Shyun.


you said 8 step was started by Master Wei?

and then called Shrfu James Shyun Grandmaster?

may I ask what you think qualifies a teacher to become a grandmaster? or master for that matter?

thanks again brother...

[ChaoticMantis]

“Proliferate the 8 Step Preying Mantis style as was started by the late Grand Master Wei and continuing by the present Grand Master Shyun.”

Proliferate: To increase or spread at a rapid rate.

I am saying Grand Master Wei started spreading eight step by teaching it to many students. Grand Master Shyun continued the tradition of also teaching it to many students.

Here is a cut and paste portion directly from your website. Should I need to say anymore about Grandmaster Sun or Shyun? You also support the claim that James Sun is the present Grandmaster of 8 Step. If you don't feel this way, please update your website. ;)

http://www.eightstep.com/kungfu.php
“In 1990 Grandmaster James Sun (the sole inheritor of the Eight Step Praying Mantis System) made the decision to further protect the system. He adopted the name of Shyun Style Praying Mantis so that people could discern the authenticity of this system's heritage and lineage from those that are in imitation.”

Please get over the issues you have with James Sun, his school and move on. Please! Please! This bitterness and hatred are ugly and is eating you up alive.

:)

[EarthDragon]

chaotic,
Unfortunatly my website was created by one fo shyun's ex- students who created the 8step website and I have not been able to update it because i have no way to get the adminstrators info. it nees serious updates i have old stuff on there that needs to be brought up to the year 2000.

you dont have to explain the defination of Proliferate. that was not my question.

I simply asked why you said master Wei started 8 step. and what your defination of a grandmaster was and who was ranked a master under shrfu shyun.

Please elaborate on your comments thanks again.

[ChaoticMantis]

Let me try and simplify this for you regarding "Started spreading 8 Step".

JHL only spread 8 Step to ONE student (FHY).

FHY only spread 8 Step to ONE student (WHT).

WHT spread 8 Step to MANY students. (SKL and other classmates).

SKL spread 8 Step to MANY students.

In spreading I meant to say to teach many students not just one.


:)

[Forkintheroad]

Wow, I never thought in a million years I would agree with EarthDragon. Present Grand Master Shyun (that sentence just leaves a really foul taste). I was trying to bite my tongue, and remain silent based on the fact I have still so much to learn, and those helping me haven't said any thing (I think their too busy training, and have more important things on their mind... but I don't so I was curious as to when the essential forms find their way to Shuyn's system? I thought Shyun was teaching 10 body coordination praying mants, and finally leaving the 8 step mantis to those who practise the 8 steps as basics, and not the 8 low kicks, 8 high kicks, 8 blocks, 8 kicking blocks 8 hand postitions 8 fists and all that other jazz (aka filler). I thought there was a thread a wile back stating most likley where Shyun got his mantis from based on the form Lan jie. I also remember a more recent thread where Shyuns 10 form where listed (minus # 10) and there wasn't a single mention of the essentials. No disrespect meant (although challenging the grand master claim I guess is a little wrong based on the fact that his skill is still far above mine, but regardless a lie is a lie). I see this discussion going no where, as both parties truely believe what they are saying, and with out stating reasons why he is or isn't this convo will most likley be cut short by an admin. I feel he isn't based on the fact his basics are not mentioned by any other person who studied with Master Wei, I find it hard to believe Master Wei created an entire group of exercises to teach his park students (who are also featured in his books, and even helped him write and edit his books) versus those Shyun teaches as basic (as Mast Chang stated in a MQ article, Master Wei taugt 8 stances, 8 steps, and 8 kicks as basics). Also how shuyn is never even mentioned in any Master Wei's books. I also have a hard time believing that all of Master Wei's students are just trying to fatten their pockets by dispelling Shyun when they've never asked any thing from me or anyone else I know that they have helped, and are still helping. Most don't run schools. They teach a few dedicated students who they want to teach based on attitude, not for monetary gain.

Thanks

[Forkintheroad]

Jiang did not create 8 step soley, it was a joint effort, and it may be possible that Feng learnt from all three masters.

[ChaoticMantis]

Hi Forkintheroad,

Let me clarified some points you mention. Please note I am not looking to start an argument and because of that I will not address other parts of your post. I wish to remain respectful to all on this board.

1. Master Shyun has all the 6 essential forms. It was included as part the early instructor training program manual. I still have the materials which I will gladly scan to show proof. If one ask Dean E., he can verify. I was taught by Master Shyun the 1-4 essential forms. For all who knows the forms, I will be glad tell you certain movements in these forms for verification. Also Tony Puyot, Michael D.'s teacher can also provide verification as he was taught the 1st essential form.

2. Master Shyun was in Grand Master Wei's book and his name was mentioned. In the book there is a group photo that Master Shyun is standing behind Grand Master Wei. It is the book that was out of print and now back in print. I have a copy of the book that I photocopied from Master Shyun.

I am here to help promote 8 Step and I do apologized if I have said anything wrong to all of you. I am sharing what I was taught from my sifu. Again I am here to help others know about 8 Step.


Respectfully,

:)

[Forkintheroad]

Thank you for your responses,
I wasn't aware that Shyun has th 6 essentials, I'll take your word for it and not waste Mike, or Tony's time. I received your other message, and likewise if you have any questions feel free to ask. It's good to see answers to questions and not pointless bashing.

Thank you again for your responses.

[Three Harmonies]

Can you show us all where the text and pic of Shyun with Wei are in the book? You would think he would get more than a "mention" if he was designated to carry on the lineage eh?
Jake :)

[lulusweeps]

From what I was told by one of Master Wei's students, James Shyun is mentioned in the book as a financial contributor to get the book published. I could not verify for myself as I don't read Chinese. James Shyun is supposedly in a photo for one of Master Wei's birthdays. However there are about 30 other people also in this photo.

[ChaoticMantis]

Here are the 2 attachments. One is a group student pictures with Master James Shyun standing behind Master Wei. The second file has all of Master Wei's student including Master James Shyun.

Again I am not here to start any flame war, but I only want to clarify misconceptions about Master Shyun and to discuss 8 Step. If you ask me a question that I don't know, I will be first to admit I don't know.

Lulu - I do not know if Master Shyun is a financial contributor to get the book published. I thought it was mention from previous posts that Lin Chun Fu and his other kung fu brothers helped publish the book. Please correct if it is wrong.

:)

[EarthDragon]

Chaotic mantis,
you said that part of the cirrculum when you trained from Shyun was the
Zhai yao?

If this is true Could you then please explain the hard and soft method's for defeating the weavers shuttle? or at least the methods for immortal takes the hair?

it seems as when I asked Dean Shyun's only 5th generation and 25 year student about this Dean told me Shyun never learned them. So I am cuirous as to how he was able to teach you 10 years later. thanks in advance

[ChaoticMantis]

EarthD

Regarding your posts, alright I may have been a bit judgmental. My BAD.

I have no idea what they are "Could you then please explain the hard and soft method's for defeating the weavers shuttle? or at least the methods for immortal takes the hair?" If you know the Chinese translation of it, maybe I might know. But as far as what you said, I don't know.

The Zhai Yao are forms 1-6 road. From Shyun's teaching, they are in the later forms. ForkInTheRoad know about these forms. These forms showed a lot of 8 Step's core techniques. As I said previously I know 1-4 of the Zhai Yao.

Dean does not know about the Zha Yao because he never learned it from Sifu. Before Dean left SF, I think he only learned the first 5 or 6 8 Step forms. I don't recall what else he learned aside the Tai Chi form.

If you see the tape that sifu gave to Dean and which you also have a copy, it includes the 1st Zha Yao form. Tony and Kin also knows the 1st Zha Yao form and possibly many more.

I learn these forms before you even joined the federation. I was around when Dean was around. To prove that I was around and that I know Dean, ask him about his photo album collection that he showed some of his classmates. If you are his best friend, you probably saw the photos in his album collection. Also when Dean came back to visit SF with his students for the 1st time since moving back to Buffalo, he brought along his new girlfriend with him. I believe she was previously divorced.

That should be enough to stir your curiosity. Later,

[lulusweeps]

Hello Chaotic,

On a previous post you atttached the 8 Step forms in Masters Wei's book. You mentioned Dean learned the first 5 forms but not the Zhai Yao. What is the 5th form he learned. The reason I ask is my teacher learned from Dean many years ago (he no longer does 8 Step but I do) and Master Shyun taught Lan Jie which we all know is not part of 8 Step. What is the 5th form Sifu Dean learned. Also my Sifu learned two additional forms after Lan Jie that had different names besides Zhai Yao. Did Master Shyun give the Zhai Yao forms different names. I would love to compare notes privately about the essentials. Take Care.

[ChaoticMantis]

Hello Lulu,

LanJie can be a big debate as to whether it is or not part of 8 Step. I will not comment further on LanJie.

If you give me the names of the forms or describe movements, I can tell you if it is familar to me or not. The Zhai Yao forms always had the same name from 1-6.

Please feel free to talk to me in private regarding the Zhai Yao and the other forms, I will do my best to compare notes with you.

:)

[lulusweeps]

Hi Chaotic,

I guess there is no debate about Lan Jie, as Master Wei never mentioned it and the Lan Jie as I learned as 8 Step is not really close to the Launjia I learned as Grand Ultimate Plum Blossom which traces back to Master Chiang Hu Long. Its not on the list of forms you posted before so it must have been added by Shyun for his reasons. Why not talk about it?:) It think would be a great discussion on how it made its way into 8 step. Talk to you soon.

[ChaoticMantis]

Hi Lulu,

I do not want to get into any heated arguments with others regarding 8 Step. There are many past 8 Step related arguments. I tried to remain netural to the point that I did not list the additional 8 Step forms from Master Shyun fearing it might start a flame war.

The Lan Jit that master Shyun teaches does have a strong flavor of 8 Step as evident in the footworks. I personally find this form to be a very nice form comparing to 7 Star's Bung Bo which is also a very nice form.

:)

[Three Harmonies]

There is no Lan Jie in Babu's original curriculum. Period. IF SHyun has it, it has been added in.

Thanks
Jake :)

[ChaoticMantis]

Jake,

That's why I will not speak any further about it. I will discuss what is publicly known in the 8 Step community. If anybody wants to discuss more indept about Master James Shyun's lineage of 8 Step, I will be glad to do in private or in public in a way that will not start a flame war.

I am here to contribute to and learn from this forum. Also to present a different picture of Master James Shyun to all. I have the deepest respect for all you.



:)

[Forkintheroad]

Not to beat a dead horse back to life, but there was a good thread where Kevin gave 2 of the highest possibilities of where Shyuns Lan Jie came from based on some of the markers in the form.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30317

[ChaoticMantis]

Fork,

Thanks for showing the old post. It is very informative and I have not read this archive post. I appreciate everybody's post regarding what is or what isn't in 8 Step, but I do have to stand by my sifu's curriculum simply because he is my teacher. I hope you all can understand where I stand and at the same time do not wish to start a flame war. I only want to share and learning with all of you.

Tainan Mantis does bring out good points and I really appreciate him coming to my sifu's defense.

:)

[EarthDragon]

Chaoticmantis..... Just curious as to how long you trained in 8 step? you mentioned that you studied in 1992 but for how long? what grade did you achive? You seem very adament about yor opionon which is fine, I am just wondering how well you actualy knew Shyun. I was in the system for 16 years in Buffalo then was accepted to train under Shyun and lived at his for school from 1995-1996.
While i appriciate your respect for his teachings as i also do i am curious as to how much depth you have with him. thanks in advance and happy holidays

[ChaoticMantis]

I started 8 Step training from 1986 to 1992 and afterward whenever I get a chance to visit sifu. Please don't worry about my grade level which I don't think it is important for now. I will tell you if I do or don't know about 8 Step. While I know a lot about 8 Step, there is a lot that I don't know about 8 Step.

If you want to say you are higher ranking than me than by all mean go a head. I have a very good feeling if I reveal my 8 Step level, that you will try to find a way and discredit me from 8 Step. I saw the patterns previous posts. Again this is my opinion and if you feel offended than I apologize. All I am concern about is sharing, learning more about 8 Step and learning about other northern mantis styles.

I know sifu very well and that is why I am here to share my perspective of him. There are many more things I can tell you about sifu, but I am starting to feel like I am being interrogated. If this continues, I will LEAVE this forum just like many of Sifu's student instructors. You can than be a sole source spokesperson for 8 Step. Please let's move on with talking about mantis martial arts!

Have a happy holiday!

:)

[ChaoticMantis]

EarthD,

Your dates are slipping. Please correct your timeline. You said Dean is a 25 year student of sifu.

2005
- 25
--------
1980 (Sifu was still in Taiwan and his son was just born) :confused:


Your dates with the school???

1995
- 16
-------
1979 ???


"it seems as when I asked Dean Shyun's only 5th generation and 25 year student about this Dean told me Shyun never learned them. So I am cuirous as to how he was able to teach you 10 years later. thanks in advance"
__________________

[old8step]

Earthdragon that is a question I am also wondering as you state

I was in the system for 16 years in Buffalo then was accepted to train under Shyun and lived at his for school from 1995-1996.

If my memory serves me right Sifu didn't start teaching teaching in the US until 1983-1984? So yes the amount of time you have stated does seem a little off to me. I don't doubt you trained for many years but exactly what year did you start training with dean? I mean as far as memory serves me didn't dean start traing around 1986 which whould of made him a 10 year student when you went to live with Shyun?

[EarthDragon]

sorryabout that please allow me to clarify. I am speaking of the beginning of 8 step training till present as we both are still practicing and teaching. I started in 1989 in buffalo NY to present 2005 = 16 years. Dean started in 1986 till 2005 = 20 years sorry not 25.

[ChaoticMantis]

EarthDragon,

I hope this answered your question. The questions you asked sounded familar. I remembered I read it before on a post, but didn't remember where. I did a search and it was a post from Kevin Brazier (11-01-05). Some of the moves seems familar in the Zhai Yao sets. I am not 100% sure because my chinese is really bad. I sent a message to Kevin inquiring about which of the mantis family this is applicable to.

:)

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38973&page=2

Defeating weaver’s shuttle.
There is the soft and hard method for this.

“The hard defeating of weaver’s shuttle.
I attack with my right hand.
He applies weaver’s shuttle.
I turn my right palm along his face(yang zhang shun mian). My left hand divides his left elbow. My right palm strikes his left shoulder.
The soft defeating of weaver’s shuttle.
He applies weaver’s shuttle.
I go along with him and apply a right groin strike in the rear mountain climbing posture.
Or, I adhere to his hand, hook down(nian shou gou xia) and apply the weaver’s shuttle.”

Grasping hand enter with chin na. Immortal takes the hair.
For the solo version we can simply follow the end of first Zhai Yao.
Here is the other way to apply it,

“Application of the adhering method.
His right hand firmly grasps my right hand or neck.
I seal with the left and do right bumping elbow(zhuang) to bend his fingers.
I swiftly apply the right inner forearm(ge zhou) and strike his neck.
He blocks my elbow.
Then I can do left seal right planting elbow. The head of my fist faces down and I apply inner forearm elbow to his chest.”

[EarthDragon]

chaotic
yep those are the ones. I persoanlly am eager to learn the Zhai yao as Shyun never taught them to anyone or so it is said. I was wondering why these were not taught in his cirriculum. But you said you learned them years ago so i am curious as to why he would take them out of the cirriculum........ even after certifiying a student to sifu level one would think you would have been taught most of the system and then on your own to perfect what you have been taught to master level. after conversating with kevin as he said these are the essentials of 8 step. and would love to learn them. thanks be well

[old8step]

Earthdragon: now I understand the timeline so i see that you still teach 8 step. I have a question since it is clear that others teach 8 step can you tell me have you ever taken lessons from anyone else, if so did they show you something different? what was the difference I am very curious to know. Also is it your belief that Shyun just added to 8 step or where did his 8 step come from if not grand master wei as i remember you posting that none of wei's student's remember shyun. So where does his eight step come from in your opinion?

Also and I know this may seem like a tough question but since you question the validity of the 8 step you have learned what do you tell your student's do you let them know that you may be teaching a system that is not the true 8 step? Do you inform them that you were taught from someone who is in your own words a "liar" Please don't take this as a personal attack I just would like to know why you would take the time to teach others a system that you have continually questioned and that you learned from a teacher who betrayed you. I mean i have read many of your posts and you discredit much of Shyun's knowledge yet you still teach and practice the system? why is that? I remember clearly one post where you brought up the fact the Shyun was only in public classes and they were kids classes at that. and only for 1 year. If this is trully the facts that you believe in why would you consider teaching anything you learned from him to others and why would you consider the fact he certifed you an accomplishment? it just seems very odd to me that someone who feels so strongly that you were betrayed, lied to and not taught the real system would not take so much pride in what you learned under him.

[ChaoticMantis]

EarthD,

To be netural about it, I would recommend if you look to Master Su in NYC for further 8 Step instruction. I think he is the nearest teacher who can teach you the Zhai Yao. According to Master Sun, he knows all the 8 Step forms except for the low mantis form.

Old8Step,

Let's encourage EarthDragon to move on and not continue to reflect on his bad experiences. I think it would be both beneficial for him and this forum.

[lulusweeps]

What is the low Mantis Form?

[ChaoticMantis]

It is the same as ground mantis.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39186

[EarthDragon]

Chaotic,
no worries i will try not to dwell on the negitive as i know it bothers you. But yes I have considered taking some trips to NYC but unfortunatly due to work and family I cannot possibly take the proper amount of time to train and learn all over again.

Old8step,
you bring up some very good questions and I wil try my best to answer them. you said
have you ever taken lessons from anyone else, if so did they show you something different? what was the difference I am very curious to know.

I hold a BB in Go Jyu Ryu karate before I ever got into mantis. But if you are speaking soley of 8 step then yes I have been shown, taught and posess video's of another master perfroming 8 step that looks quite diffrerent. Alos form corosponding with others some things that are taught early in ones learning was never shown or taught even up to shru level.

Also is it your belief that Shyun just added to 8 step or where did his 8 step come from if not grand master wei as i remember you posting that none of wei's student's remember shyun. So where does his eight step come from in your opinion?

there are o many things in shyuns ciriculum that other 8 step players have never heard of like the kicking combinations, the 10 body cordinations, the lead in's for the 40 throws. the mantis kick boxing, many fo the joint locks, etc etc. as to where this stuff came from I have no idea and have been trying to discet where and when and for what reason it was added. What was wrong with 8 step in his opinon? why would one add to it unless of course you never had the whole system in the first place.

Also and I know this may seem like a tough question but since you question the validity of the 8 step you have learned what do you tell your student's do you let them know that you may be teaching a system that is not the true 8 step? Do you inform them that you were taught from someone who is in your own words a "liar"

The 8 step that i know still works well in actual combat and the techniques are extremly effective and i am able to fight and defend with them. So yes it works, i guess i am just being a tradtionalist and would like the pure thing. water is drinkable and quenches your thrist but I would rather dring from the natural spring. does that make sense? yes my students are all over this board most of them have met Shyun when he would travel to my school to give demos and seminars. But many were turned off when I was told to send a check for 25,000 to him and that i must enroll 5 of my students in the sifu program in order to continue teaching 8 step.
When i refused my name was taken off the website and I was treated like I never was certified, learned not ranked not recognized or taught by him. that was a kick in the booty do you not agree? If others feel i am bitter i am sorry but how would you feel???????????/

I hope this answers some of your questions. be well

[Ou Ji]

It seems to me that what upsets you is probably that your MA life did not go the way you planned. Unfortunately that's how it goes for many of us.

For the most part you should be thankful for getting what you did (talking about MA's in general, not just you) and make the best of it.

Personally I don't get worked up about lineage. I would like to have learned a complete system and carried on the tradition but that didn't work out for me so I do what I can with what I learned.

I think this focus on complete systems and lineage is a modern thing. Systems evolve over the generations, they branch off, so I don't think there really is such a thing as complete.

I don't mean to say you're wrong for wanting that but I think you should be flexible enough to roll with the punches and come out on top. You can easily add in the things you feel were missing plus you have the extra stuff that others don't. Think of it as trading material.

Other than that being lied to trying to turn you into an ATM would **** anyone off but that's more a personal issue.

[EarthDragon]

Ouji, yes thank you I am trying. Dont get me wrong I am greatful for what i have learned and i still teach the same way. However I left my karate teacher, sold my car and quit my career and moved across the US under an impression and many years later come to find out that impression might have been wrong. i feel dorothy after pulling back the curtain...........LOL thanks to everyone for the postivitve comments... my knew avatar quote should be LET IT GO................LOL

[ChaoticMantis]

EarthD,

I have to disagree with you on certain things. Please let me present a different point of view.

Whether he added to the system or it was taught to sifu can be an endless debates. But like you said the system is effective and it works. I don’t know if you ever saw the sifu circulum from the early days, but it was well structured. It laid out in details of everything a student were to learn from grade 1-5 which includes all the 8 body corridations to throwing, joint locking techniques, forms and applications. Ask Dean about the early circulum, he will tell you that it is well structured.

In today’s world, most of us do not have the luxuary of training full time like the olds days. We would have to follow a teacher for more than 10 or even 20 years in order to learn an entire or most of a martial system.

Master Shyun modernized 8 Step and at the same time still kept the traditional training, so that a student can be proficient within 5 years to become an instructor.

His structurized systems works. As you get further within the 8 Step system you will see more traditional training because the foundation has already been laid to prepare you for the more advance training. Myself and a few other old students can testify to the more traditional training because we have reached that stage. I don’t know about his present instructors, I would have to ask sifu about it. Most likely his high ranking instructors have already started to receive the traditional training in the advance stage.

Master Shyun’s circulum is what attracted a lot people to his school. I was attracted to the intensity of the training. He has satisfy my hunger of martial arts and I do not feel any needs to look for another instructor for training.

One thing that blew my mind was that I was one of a few priviledged students to witness him performing the advanced fighting sets of 8 Step and the ground mantis. The fighting sets are not beautiful like the public sets that he teaches. It has a lot of the zhai yao movements and many more techniques that I have not even seen. The fighting sets needs to be performed with power and speed in order to be effective. The ground mantis form contained 360 movements and it takes a good half an hour to 45 minutes to perform. After seeing these advanced form, I finally understand why all the early physical training was a prerequisite.

[old8step]

earthdragon:

Once again I thank you for taking the time to answer my questions thoughtfully I am glad that the system does work for you. I think all of us talking together has helped shed alot of light on the system. Some good some bad but alot of truths have come out which is always good.

Chaotic: I have a question maybe you can answer as earthdragon has said Dean was the only 5th generation? do you know this to be true? I may not remember things as well since I was young at the time and it has been over a decade but I thought i had heard of other 5th generation? I like to think I was pretty close to Sifu during my training time and was priveledged to see some things that may not have been shown to the public. As you have confirmed when I relayed a set of moves that my Dai Low and Sifu used to go through as indeed part of ground mantis. and the fact i trained old school with the 1000 punches etc.

[ChaoticMantis]

Old8Step,

Please see the thread 8 Step Lineage Holder as my response would be more appropriate in that thread.

:)

[EarthDragon]

Chaotic,
you assumption that I perhaps have not learned the system confuses me. I learned all the fighting applications, the 5 set applications, all the joint locks 40 throws, the Wu taji and its applications. as well as the anatomy tui na, bone setting, and 365 accupuncture points as well as 3 years of herbology.

i learned the old way through the grades all the way up until the sifu level 16 years worth. So i am confused why you said i havent learned the old and full way. I was the 5th highest ranking student in the US. above me was only dean, kevin loftus, george listjak, steve spoth and jack stuknik. that is all.

may i ask what level you reached? and if you are not a sifu which I know your not how can you say you know the whole system or at least more than I?

[ChaoticMantis]

Mr. Michael Haley,

I don’t understand how you can think I made an assumption about you. I only talked about the old days during the time Dean and I was around.

Whatever you said you learned, I will not dispute you because I was not there. I will let sifu and his other instructors validate your credentials.

Before I leave this forum, please check www.8step.com. I am sure you can identify who I am and my credentials. ;)

Happy New Year!


:D

PS - I guess you are wrong. Since the cat is out of the bag, I may still visit to forum from time to time and contribute. If any of you have questions, please feel free to send me a private message.

[EarthDragon]

Chaotic, i am confused, I dont understand what you mean when you said check the 8 step webiste. what am I looking for? are you lieng and your not from PA? who are you ? please tell me here or in private. Therefore i can figure out what this cat is that you speak of. Please stop eluding and elaborate , thanks be well.

[ChaoticMantis]

My name is Kin Mak, an old student taught directly by Master James Shyun. My rank is 3rd duan level instructor and I am listed in 8step.com website under instructors. I was certified around Dean's time, but I chose to be inactive until now.

Prior to this I was posting as ex_8step. I did not post anything specific at that time because I was reestablishing myself with sifu's school.

All of the instructors listed on the website are very qualify and skilled in the 8 Step Preying Mantis system and have help Master Shyun built a strong foundation.

They all have trained and studied hard to achieve their present ranking just like any of sifu’s students both past and present.

I am here to help bring to light a different perspective on Master James Shyun to all of you.

Respectfully,

[old8step]

Sifu Mak:

thank you for answering some lingering questions as always I am glad to have heard from both of you and Michael as there are always two sides to any story and I respect both sides.

Sifu Haley: I think i must disagree on one point that you made and this has nothing to do with discrediting you because i do believe everything you said and fully understand your point of view and yes Dean may have been the first to open a school and spread 8 step but there are other student's not including Sifu Mak who trained with Sifu Shyun in SF and reached very high levels and these student's did not train under Dean: I have seen their rankings and certificates personally. Once again this is by no means anything against you or your training I have met Dean and i know both of you are certified Sifu's in your own right and left Sifu for your own reasons but the five students you named are not the only ones of high level and some have never been mentioned on sifu's website for whatever reasons I do not know the only thing i can say is what I know from personal experience.

[commoner]

This is getting quite pathetic with all this 8 Step feuding going on. Yes, it was interesting in the beginning and I am at fault for taking part of fanning the flame.

But it is getting tiring. It is like watching all these reality shows. Interesting in the beginning, but it gets boring or even sickening after a while.

I don’t want to point fingers, but everybody (myself included) who has contributed to this feuding to please stop. Please contribute the good things about 8 step praying mantis or other mantis martial arts. MOVE ON PLEASE! :mad:

[old8step]

commoner who is feuding i feel that we are all exchanging a good deal of information and filling in some blanks that alot of us had. I mean chaotic actually gave sifu haley the name of another 8 step master and sifu haley has answered all my questions very graciouslly.

[commoner]

Old8step,

Please spend some time read all related 8 Step archived articles until now, you will see a pattern. It is not just within Shyun's school, but with Shyun's kung fu brothers' students as well.

[EarthDragon]

old8step.
perhaps I did not explian myself correctly. I did not mean to impose that there are no others out there that did not learn from dean, were not high ranked or anything else.

I said that none of those old time students opened there own school and promoted others to shrfu level. of the many students high ranking included from irving street please list the shrfu's.
then list any that opened their own school, then list the ones whom actually taught others to shrfu level.

there are none other than dean in the US.

chaoticmantis.
there are many shrfus that shyun ranked and certified that are no longer listed on his 8 step site myself included.... WHY???? becuse we left the federation and stopped paying ridiculous fess, and dues. if you had opend your own school you would understand why 11 of his shrfus left his federation for thier own personal reasons. And if i remeber correctly you were never listed on his site am i correct? when I was listed you name was never mentioned other than the letter you had written in chinese he found in the garbage...

[ChaoticMantis]

Mr. Haley,

I don't know about those crazy rumors back years ago.

I grew up here as a child and my chinese is so bad I could bearly write my name in chinese let alone write a letter. I was born in Hong Kong, not Taiwan. The only time I was in Taiwan was with Master Shyun and his students back in '88 for a Tai Chi tournament.

Like I said in a previous post I chose to be inactive until now. Anybody can verify this with Master Shyun. Again, I am now listed as an active instructor. That should solve your mystery.

[EarthDragon]

I know you are not tainwanese. but you are familar with the letter I am talking about? it was Shrfu that told me the story. I told you I have a vidoe of you in the irving street of him teaching you the sets 5-9 then he told me you wrtoe a letter to your old shrfu. Is that rumor? or is shyun lieing? I hold nothing against you but I have been active in teh federation for some time and much has changed. if you are listed you will have to promote 5 studetns a year for the shrfu program and send him a check for 25,000 mark my words.

then you must purchase all your sashes, certificats and dues to him to supposedly pay for flights and lodging to the yearly sifu camp.......... then you sleep on the floor of the school so bring a sleping bag my friend....

[ChaoticMantis]

Michael,

I don't know the letter you are talking about because I never wrote one. My chinese is terrible. As for the rumor I don't know, but that was the past. I am more concern about today.

When I first spoke to him, I asked him for permission for me to teach my son and nephew because of their interest in martial arts. I told him I have no interest in opening a school, but that these 2 would eventual want to open a school someday. Sifu told me that he wanted to make if official and put my picture on the website. So that is part of my story of getting involve with the federation.

I never asked him to make me an instructor. Sifu gave me a certificate because he felt that I learned and trained enough to become a proficient instructor. Also I have helped him teach some of the classes in the old days.

I don't know about this large amount of money that you are talking about. But like you said I will find out. I will update all of you.

Regards,

[commoner]

ED,

After thinking about it, I would have to agree with you to some extend. After reading ChaoticMantis's post, I think he is quite honest about his involvement of 8 step.

Then this leads me to believe that Shyun might be the root of his lies. It does not make sense when you said that Shyun kick Kin out of the school and then he was able to go back to Shyun.

Kin is too much of a traditionist protecting his teacher even when there are good amount of evidences out in the open exposing Shyun. Either that or he is a real sucker for Shyun.

[EarthDragon]

I dont want to make judgments about anyone only state my personal view and facts that I have come to find.

I cant speak for Kin and his reasons but I too stood behind and backed up Shyun for a number of years even when things were brought out into the light. Untill recently were my eyes opened adn my posistion changed.

As far as the old school was concerned......

Originally back in the day the only way you were certified to be a Shrfu and taught the "real stuff" by Shyun was if you promised to open your own school , promote the system and teach others to the level of Shrfu.

This he said was his way of not letting 8 step die. Great! no problem.

If you promised to open your school you were put under his wing. This seemed innocent and held value,and made me feel loved by him as a father to a son.

years later his ulterior motives showed and were to get rich of this plan.

If you wanted to lean for yourself you were treated differently becuse he knew you would never open a school, teach others and enroll students into the shrfu program. This was what happened to Kinmak robert, Bruce, ashid, Danny and others.

He wanted a school in every state. 50 schools x 100.00 dues per month =5,000 per month then 5,000 for shrfu program =25,000 per school per shrfu thats 125,000 per year plus sashes and certificates at 40.00 a pop adds up to a lot of money.100's of thousands..OK it seemd like a great goal.

Then wanted to build "mantis mountain" a resort for students and family.

This also semed like a great vision........... until the first shrfu camp then the real deal came out. and the colors were shown.

The 100.00 per month for dues per school. 16 active schools = 1,600.00 per month X a year 19,200.00 was put away for travel, dinners and lodging expenses for all attendies which was stated on the letter sent out from Edward drimmer the ACMAF secretary........... then we had to pay for the flight he ordered a party pizza and everyone slept on the floor of the school were the shrfu camp was held.

what happened to the 19,000 dollars????? that was just the first year!

If what I said is not 100 % true of that year or what I have said I challange any active shrfu that was there tell me something different!

Many people still pay and beleive in this vision but most the the older/smarter non brainwashed students were shocked, flabbergasted, and felt cheated myself included obviously, and we all got together and talked about what transpired... since then most have wised up and seen past the facsade and left the ACMAF.

I wish him luck in his dreams I just hope its not at the expense of others innocents and pocket books....

what are MA lessons worth to you ??????