to earth dragon and others

[old8step]

Ok as you all know i was way gone before any of this happened so I don't understand it. I am also no longer a student of Sifu Sun or affiliated in any way with any 8 step so I am not defending anything either. But I have read in posts where several people discredit shyun's 8 step as having added things or not having certain things. I have also read where you basically say Shyun is not a Grand Master or Master??? correct me if I am wrong. Now here is where I am VERY confused. I understand the personal and montetary issues that happened but is Shyun's 8 step not 8 step?? Because I have read where you have proudly stated that he cannot take away your accomplishments and that you will always be a registered shrfu and I know you still teach 8 step. now that being said it is my understanding that by your own words you learned you 8 step from Shyun?? is that correct or did you go to another teacher after you left Shyun. Because if the first part is correct that you learned your 8 step from him shouldn't you be defending the system as the correct one? I mean not defending him personally as i know some bad things happened between you two and dean and him and etc. But his Kung Fu is what you teach is not. you were certified under him were you not? So if his kung fu is not the true 8 step than aren't your credentials just as unreal? Now once again please do not take this an attack it just seems strange that if Shyun is not a Master ok I will agree after studying the various threads he may not be the Grand master but the fact that he was able to teach and certify students such as Dean and yourself and Kevin if he is not a Master then what gave him the right to certify other sifu's such as yourself.

[EarthDragon]

old8step.
This is a great question........ most of which I too am trying to find out.
The reaosn for my bitterness is i left my back ground in GoJuRyu to persue 8 step after atteding a seminar form Shyun in 1988. I learned from Dean for 6 years and every year asked Shyun to train directly under him. after being accepted i moved to SF and was trained and certified through him as a Shrfu as well as becomming a lineage so basiclly 16 years of my life. A few years later i come to find out that what i was taught was not the real 8 step and the man whom taught it to me may very well not have even learned from the 3rd genderation teacher Wei. How would you feel to be lied to for 16 years?

so there is no documentaion, no pictures, no records and the men whom trained with wei never for 30 plus years daily dont remember Shyun in the classes.... he was too young, he used to be in the kids class to keep him out of trouble.
public classes to boot and only for a year.

Shyun said he trained in the mountains with wei for 19 years privatley. He also he dad was a 5 star general in the taiwanese army........ his dad worked as a gardener in the school were wei was a cook.

But all this would never have been known unless the internet brought it out into the light.
He was sued by the Wu family for teaching Wu style taji which he changed 2 movements and calls it Shyun for legal rights as well as Shun 8 step. is this the character of a true master?

I have love for him and he is a far better martial artist then I.......... however there is no need to embellish or make claims that are out right lies just to become rich and famous.

be liked and respected for who you are not what you lie about to be...............

[old8step]

earthdragon I can entirely understand how you feel I too would feel betrayed. But not comes this question that is just as confusing. Ok if he only trained in public kids classes for a year. How in the Hell did he get so good?? as this is one aspect i'm sure everyone can agree on is that James Shyun is a very good martial artists. his movements his throws his body strength and flexibilty. If he did not learn from Wei than where did he learn all his techniques etc from. Why did Adam Hsu and Brendan Lai and other masters endorse him? and what style is he really teaching?

[ChaoticMantis]

Michael,

It is not that I don't want to hear it. It is because you dominate all the postings regarding 8 Step. It is your constant attacks on Master James Shyun and his school that have turn away 8 Step practitioners both from Master James Shyun's school and Master Wei's student and their students.

I try my best to be diplomatic and present a view based on the facts I have regarding the 8 Step that Master Shyun teaches, so they can get a different view.
I am trying to stay away from saying anything that will start a flame war. I am about to give up on this forum because I don't think I will get a chance to present a different view based on your response.

I do have a lot to share based on what I was taught regarding 8 Step.

Please let stick to talking about 8 Step and stop all this flame post. I am pleading to you Michael. If I give up on posting I don't think anybody else from Master Shyun's camp will ever do any posting. I think that will be a lost to everybody on this forum.

:)

[Forkintheroad]

Alright, I'll play along,
I stated Shyun is not the Grand Master, that doesn't mean he didn't master 8 step. I don't feel his basics are the same basics that Master Wei taught (althou I've never met master Wei). As for adding things, I belive he added a few 8's (blocks punches etc.), some body coordinations, some locks, and some throws. as for removing things the most basic of basics wheren't taught (the 8 moving steps), instead he taught 10 body coordinations. He may have mastered 8 step, but he wasn't teaching it in it's entirety to those he ranked as Shifu. I know that the 8 moving steps where taught as advanced techniques after shifu level, yet they are what comprise the base of the forms. When Jiang Hua Long mixed his mantis with Ba Gua, Hsing I, and Tong bei, he didn't continue calling it Mei Hua. Shyun has added quite a bit (not necessarily a bad thing, as he has added ground fighting and other throwing, and locking techniques), but by doing that it isn't 8 step any more. I don't mean to say it's worse or better, only different, and that he should acknowledge his changes, and stand by them. Honestly the only thing that annoys me is that he still uses that word Grand Master, had he dropped that title after the law suits alot of this argument would be deaded.

[ChaoticMantis]

Forkintheroad,

This is why I am here to present more informations on James Shyun to you folks, so that you can get a different point of view. I need your help and help from everybody so that I can contribute to this forum.

Thanks,

:)

[old8step]

fork in the road thank you for clearing that up so now i understand alot let me make sure I am getting this right. alot of the problems are over the title Grandmaster? and Shyun does know eight step yet he added some techniques so it is in fact a hybrid 8 step and not Master Wei's 8 step is that correct? I guess this is more an argument of tradition as I have been involved in mma for the last 6 yrs and switching teachers and adding techniques is never seen as a bad thing.

[Forkintheroad]

Yea it's an argument that will never have a winner, because no side is really wrong. It's really just opinion on weather or not the changes helped the system or not. And even that is biased as to the actual practitioner, if I can use the locks effectively, then naturaly it was a good addition. There are reasons I like the traditional, and choose to learn that system, but I don't feel I wasted my time, or was cheated by learning Shyuns methods. The only comment I will make is that I like the way the traditional focuses more on defending the center, instead of opening it for maximum chi flow, which when fighting equates to leaving the Jewels slightly more open for a kick (which is where the kicking blocks come in I guess). But on the positive side by having a more open stance you can use both the front and rear weapons much easier (perhaps easier wasn't the right word, but none the less both are right there ready to attack).

[ChaoticMantis]

Forkintheroad,

I was taught by master Shyun to defend the center as the foundation from early on. Based on his past experiences he also taught the opening of the center, but focusing heavy on the various steps of 8 Step which is very effective. He used the openness to lure the opponent in and use the 8 steps to go in and attack.

:)

[Forkintheroad]

Now that we got the politics out of the way, lets start discusing training methods, and other good stuff. I'm glad to hear you where taught to protect the center from day one. I know we both focus quite a bit on conditioning (that's one of the reasons I was attracted to 8 step, no beer bellied, flabby armed instructors teaching the classes). Any conditioning methods you use outside of 8 step? I like the knee to elbow sit ups, without letting your feet touch the ground (Althou I've been slacking lately trooping it through the snow takes alot out of me).

Have a good one,
Rich

[ChaoticMantis]

Hey Fork,

Here is something I used to do outside of my training years ago. Please DO NOT laugh. Years back when Billy Banks came out with his martial arts cardio workout tape, I bought the tape to check it out. I did the workout on the tape and found it to be a very good 1/2 hour cardio workout. I used the tapes for about 1 year and it did help improve my mantis training.

[EarthDragon]

old8step and fork,
Fork I think you know my point here and you made some valid comments.

old8step.
the reason for my bitteness is just that! I spent many years learning something that i thought was the real thing/tradtional/Wei's/Jianghualong's babu.
only to find out after being certified/lineage holder that perhaps i am not learning the real deal nor will become a true lineage holder. but so be it.

I am totally into exchanging, sharing and helping promote 8 step. for chaotic mantis you have read 10% of my posts but 90% of them are positive you only seem to shed light on the negitive. if you review my threads and posts you will see many things i have contributed to 8 step maybe not grandmaster shyuns 8 step recently but 8 step in general. be well.

[EarthDragon]

Chaotic mantis,
you said that part of the cirrculum when you trained from Shyun was the
Zhai yao?

If this is true Could you then please explain the hard and soft method's for defeating the weavers shuttle? or at least the methods for immortal takes the hair?

it seems as when I asked Dean Shyun's only 5th generation and 25 year student about this Dean told me Shyun never learned them. So I am cuirous as to how he was able to teach you 10 years later. thanks in advance

[Forkintheroad]

I know you asked me not to laugh, but that is actually pretty funny, as long as it got the job done I won't laugh.

Earth Dragon, you are right in that I do understand how you would feel, as many others around me have/had similar feelings. However you can't change the past, and dwelling soley on the negative aspects of your past training can't be healthy. Your time was only a wasted if thats what you want it to be. It's hard to move forward wile holding alot of baggage.

[ChaoticMantis]

EarthD

Regarding your posts, alright I may have been a bit judgmental. My BAD.

I have no idea what they are "Could you then please explain the hard and soft method's for defeating the weavers shuttle? or at least the methods for immortal takes the hair?" If you know the Chinese translation of it, maybe I might know. But as far as what you said, I don't know.

The Zhai Yao are forms 1-6 road. From Shyun's teaching, they are in the later forms. ForkInTheRoad know about these forms. These forms showed a lot of 8 Step's core techniques. As I said previously I know 1-4 of the Zhai Yao.

Dean does not know about the Zha Yao because he never learned it from Sifu. Before Dean left SF, I think he only learned the first 5 or 6 8 Step forms. I don't recall what else he learned aside the Tai Chi form.

If you see the tape that sifu gave to Dean and which you also have a copy, it includes the 1st Zha Yao form. Tony and Kin also knows the 1st Zha Yao form and possibly many more.

I learn these forms before you even joined the federation. I was around when Dean was around. To prove that I was around and that I know Dean, ask him about his photo album collection that he showed some of his classmates. If you are his best friend, you probably saw the photos in his album collection. ;) Also when Dean came back to visit SF with his students for the 1st time since moving back to Buffalo, he brought along his new girlfriend with him. I believe she was previously divorced.

That should be enough to stir your curiosity. Later,

:)

[commoner]

Before I go into my post, I just want to say have a safe Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Now to my post:

Dear EarthDragon,

I have been keeping a low profile and have gather a whole bunch of information for my project. But I have to voice an opinion, but not directly from me. It is Tainan Mantis's old post from last year. He said it all. I hope you would move on.



#6 05-26-2004, 10:51 AM
Tainan Mantis
Registered User Join Date: Jan 1970
Location: Tainan,Taiwan
Posts: 1,203

ED,
I don't want to hear any bad stuff about Shyun.
I don't want to know those dirty laundry family details.
I don't want to hear about your feelings after noticing you got a bad hand at the poker table.

It sounds bitter. That can't be a good thing. And I have no need to hear about it.
Just tell us about the good things you are doing now.

Lotsa seminars to go and meet teachers.
Give some positive impressions on the good things you see.

Also, I don't think your training with Shyun could have been so bad.
Before, you used to praise him with such glory that God Almighty himself wanted to sign up and study with Shyun.
And now...?

It was a waste of your time?

I have seen footage of Shyun performing his apps.
They are real, I can't deny.
He did teach you real 8 Step forms.

Also, his sifu test is a real cashew buster. Some folks would die before the day was over on that one just from all the physical exertion.

Not only that, Shyun is the only guy to push a PM fighter into UFC.
Joel Sutton.
Won a fight or two.
I guess all Shyun's students should be proud of that.
I feel proud just to be in PM cuz of good ol' Joel.

[CFREW]

Hello my fellow

Northern practiconers

I am a Southern practiconer of Ch'i Kune Jow Do, which is an integration of both Tong Long Kune, SPM, and Lo Fu Do, Southern Tiger Form,

since both styles are very similar, My Sifu Alistar bourne integrated them both after learning them, i have been a practiconer of this art for, 6 years, am currently studying Muay thai, an am a Brown belt in ninjitsu

I just wanted to say 1st of all Merry christmas to you all an hope the our heavenly father may bless your households,

2nd, i would just like to say, im quite saddend in regards to the tension with in this thread as it seems to me that there are alot of issues or disagreements within a certain kwoon,

even though i know nothing of your art, i believe that with every MA, that we put our heart an souls into studying, that we should be very greatful for the teachings we have recieved as i believe that it should help us to better ourselves within our lives an the people that we surround ourselves with everyday

also in regards to a statment made i think it was by ( EARTH DRAGON ) please forgive me if i have spelled the name incorrectly, but in regards to the statement of yours saying

you feel let down that you did not learn the real 8 step that a previous Grandmaster Wei taught, as you know that Your Sifu Shyun changed some of the forms or added different forms techniques to the art itself

I myself if i was in that position an had reached the level of shifu, i myself would be proud an honored that i made it that far, also in recieveing that title, you have the authority, as a shifu to add your own techniques to the already existing art, an improve in certain areas you think may lack or needs improving,

also i do not think that any MA these days are the true original form as through the times, alot of other HONORABLE sifus have also altered an added alot to the arts, to compensate in certain areas, if you were wanting to learn the true form, you would need to go back to the person who had created the art,

Please this is just my opinion, i do not mean to Offend ne one

so i hope no offense is taken, as none was given

from the beautiful land of the long white cloud

AOTEAROA aka New Zealand

[ChaoticMantis]

CFREW,

Thank you for sharing with us your personal opinions and feelings. It is always good for others to contribute their experiences so that others can benefit and learn from it. I want to let you know I benefited and have learned something new from you post. :)

Happy Holidays!

:)

[EarthDragon]

CFREW and commoner, again aplogies for crying over spilled milk, perhaps the feeling of betral is more than i can bere sometimes but i will try to forgive and forget and move on. I feel bad about poisoning the board with ill will.
sorry........ Merry christmas, happy holidays and happy new year!