Shaolin sets

[r.(shaolin)]

It appears that the PRC Shaolin Temple is planning to publish what they consider kungfu of Shaolin. Although it is not clear when this will begin, according to one source, this project will take three years. I suspect this may be connected to Shaolin's Unesco Total Heritage Protection project. According to the People's Daily Online, Shaolin martial arts includes 360 sets. They do say only about 100 sets are currently been practiced. I hope the details and sources of these sets are included. In the summer of 1980 in an effort to collect and systematize what to their minds (read a government committee) constituted Shaolin culture an event was held that recorded 249 traditional bare hand and weapons sets still being practiced in various villages in around the region.

This should be interesting.

r.

[Royal Dragon]

Will it be in english too?

[Fen]

More info here here (http://www.fu-ragz.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=670#670)

~Jason

[Judge Pen]

It should be interesting. It will also only add more controversy.

[GeneChing]

We discussed Shaolin's Intangible Heritage bid in our 2005 Shaolin special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=590) in our article Rebuilding Shaolin Temple for the Next Millennium: Interview with Shaolin Abbot, Venerable Shi Yongxin. We've discussed this here on this forum somewhere too, I think. Logically, for Shaolin kung fu to make such a bid, it has to be defined, so this project wasn't unexpected. In fact, it seems a little tardy.

[David Jamieson]

I think it's a good idea despite all the conflist it's gonna cause with shaolin antagonists outside of the temple. (ie every club that claims it's all just prc wushu)

It's a good effort, I hope they keep it real and have the goods.
I don't really trust any government these days, least of all my own lol, but I think there is a good chance that some bonafide real ass kungfu will be in that curriculum despite the best efforts of anyone with bad intentions towards kungfu practice.

[Judge Pen]

I don't really trust any government these days, least of all my own

Shhhhhh. They can hear you.

[David Jamieson]

Shhhhhh. They can hear you.

That's ok, I want them to hear my discontent.
I want them to hear the discontent of all the milllions of others who don't jibe with them as well.

:D

they can spy on me calling them asses all day long. What are they gonna do? Cry? lol

[Sal Canzonieri]

I think that this is a great thing happening.

Finally, all 360 sets will be documented.

AND, people will be able to compare what is out there for the various sets.
and many many of these sets are extremely rare and may be the only way
that they will every be preserved.

360 sets? hmm, so that number comes from all the sets that were known in the
Shaolin library before the Ming Dynasty that were created at Shaolin temple schools.

There are more sets than these 360, but they are borrowed from other schools outside of Shaolin.

[GeneChing]

Will we reset your clock if the currently dynasty (communists) falls and a new one arises? It seems arbitrary to me to say that Ming Shaolin defined what is and what is not Shaolin today - it doesn't allow for evolution. However, if we're going to set such a limit, the Ming is clearly the best period.

Personally, I think any documentation of any art is a good thing so I'm really looking forward to see what they come up with. Many of the publication coming out of Shaolin now are very interesting. Sadly so little of it has been translated - there's this (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39768) but neither Sal nor I nor anyone else I know have seen a reader's copy yet, and that's a bad sign. It's just like with movies - when there's no advanced preview for the critics, the critics get suspicious that their hiding something, something like a poor work. Maye they're just new to the game, so for now, we'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Ming Dynasty is when the reputation of Shaolin started to really spread and
their forms were more defined and cataloged in their library.

But, of course, there was much evolution throughout the Ching/Qing dynasty
as well, I think there were many new sets developed during that time.

I was looking at that number 360 for the sets, by the Yuan Dynasty it was said
that Shaolin had preserved 240 sets (you know, story of when they had invited 18 masters and over the course of three years created/cataloged all these sets).

Who knows where they are getting this 360 number from. That's a lot more than the Shaolin "Encyclopedia" shows.
And, ONLY 360? I never counted.

I really hope they are real sets and that they will actually preserve the "lost sets".
For example, I would love to see the 2nd and 3rd Tai Zu Long Fist forms of Shaolin,
I have only seen/learned the 1st one (32 move form). Also, there are various Hong Quan forms that you never see anymore.

I also really hope that they don't show all the abbreviated forms that they do now there. What they call Xiao and Da Lohan forms, for example, are very appreviated forms.

I think this is something long overdue, as long as it will be as accurate as possible.

About that "translation" of volume one of that Secret Shaolin stuff. They have testimonials on their site, so how did these people get copies before it was being sold publicly? Gene is right, if they want to really show their best intentions, he and I (for example) should get review copies. If the material is all that they say it is, I would be glad to write a testimonial.
I'm not turned off by their hard sell approach on their site cause I understand how marketing is done effectively to generate maximum sales. It is not how most people with lots of experience in martial arts like to be marketed to, but people have to make a living.

[GeneChing]

You know, Sal, that some, not all, of the masters at Shaolin have long versions of xiaohong and dahong. The abbreviated versions are mostly for tourists and young adepts. There are plenty of longer versions, they just aren't as easily accessed by the outside observer. That's something I've noted in the books - you don't see the long versions there either. But they are there - you just got to ask the right person and they got to be willing to share.

As for hard sell marketing, I've been working this salt mine called the martial arts full time for a decade and a half and their method might generate some short term sales, but probably not for the long green, unless the book is good. So many martial arts books are published nowadays, more than ever before because self-publishing is easier than ever, and so many never even sell half of their first printing. Experienced martial readers have seen the 'secrets revealed' and the testimonials sell technique so many times that only the newbies are taken in. But the martial arts is a newbie industry - we make most of our money on the front end - but that catched up to you soon if you only cater to beginners. Anyway, like I said, we'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now. Besides, my review queue is pretty full at the moment (isn't it always?)

[green_willow]

This is great for my research in to shaolin and buddism PhD thesis that I'm writing. But at the same time I'm a bit sceptical. the long tradition of shaolin has built up considerable secrets in the killing arts I'm not sure with the violence that abounds whether the western world is ready for it. Traditionally, the monks would choose their students carefully providing the appropriate level of disclosure. But even than we know the 'accidents' did happen ie white beard - which resulted in the temple burning down. But having a fully disclosure of the shaolins how can this be connected to the UNISCO Heritage Protection Protocol as it would violate the heritage of traditional shaolin. Somehow I'm sceptical of of the government's motives pending conspiricy / involvement / what ever at shaolin. And for one I wouldn't be celebrating just yet or writing too much on the net as being an unwitting propaganda arm of the government. Happy training.

[GeneChing]

Oh don't worry about that. Even if they gave full disclosure, only the advanced student could understand it all. It's just like Zen - the answers are right there before you, but can you see them? That's really the essence of the problem most people have with Shaolin - they get the quick answer and consider it the end. Really, it's only the beginning - only chamber #1 out of 36, or 360 as the case maybe...:rolleyes:

[green_willow]

Oh don't worry about that. Even if they gave full disclosure, only the advanced student could understand it all. It's just like Zen - the answers are right there before you, but can you see them? That's really the essence of the problem most people have with Shaolin - they get the quick answer and consider it the end. Really, it's only the beginning - only chamber #1 out of 36, or 360 as the case maybe...:rolleyes:

You are like my master dropping down all those little hints. I get it now, I'll go full circle after going through 360 chambers if each chamber is a degree of advancement - correct?

But where upon the circle should I start?

[GeneChing]

Full circle or fool circle? Be sure you're on the right path. And start from right where you are, right now.

[green_willow]

Full circle or fool circle? Be sure you're on the right path. And start from right where you are, right now.

thanks for the advice - is there someone at the temple or do you know of anyone doing the same type of research?

[GeneChing]

Research on fools? Yeah, there's plenty... I'm not sure what you're asking me now. In fact, I'm not sure I was ever sure....:rolleyes:

[green_willow]

Research on fools? Yeah, there's plenty... I'm not sure what you're asking me now. In fact, I'm not sure I was ever sure....:rolleyes:

The reason why I asked you is because you've been to the shaolin temple - met the monks and a publisher of the journals. So I thought you'd be a good person to ask. So do you want to help?

[GeneChing]

My question is not 'why?' it's 'what?' I have no idea what you are asking me anymore. Are you asking me to do your research for you?

[green_willow]

My question is not 'why?' it's 'what?' I have no idea what you are asking me anymore. Are you asking me to do your research for you?


From your response you said that it doesn't matter where the research begins because eventually we travel full circle. LOL maybe the circle is smaller than you anticipated - as you're now asking about what I was asking.

I'm after information that connects buddhism and shaolin - maybe you have information on the 36 chambers and how we can apply them in todays MA grading system. If you have pictures of shaolin either from your travels or from other people you know that would be great as well.

[GeneChing]

If you want to look at my past Shaolin research, feel free to check out what I've published online (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/TOC/index.php#C) - that's the free handout for you. There's a few other articles on Shaolin there that aren't by me as well.

As for my print research, all of our table of contents are available in our magazine section (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/index.php). You can look through the old issues and there are links to our online store (http://www.martialartsmart.com) for the issues that are still available. Also, our old cover stories (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/TOCindex.php#C) are available for free online.

So I'd say you have your work cut out for you. You can look at literally hundreds of pictures of Shaolin in our print and online media. Also, we do an annual Shaolin special, so if you're really serious about this research, it's a good time to subscribe! (http://www.martialartsmart.net/19341.html)

[David Jamieson]

people who can't put in the effort to do a little study aren't worth the effort to feed answers to all day. lol

read the fuggin manuals first, do the searches and then ask questions about the 36 chambers which aren't 36 at all. lol :p

the other day i was asked "what could i do instead of this because this is hard"

I replied, "well, you can go have a hamburger and watch tv"

[green_willow]

If you want to look at my past Shaolin research, feel free to check out what I've published online (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/TOC/index.php#C) - that's the free handout for you. There's a few other articles on Shaolin there that aren't by me as well.

As for my print research, all of our table of contents are available in our magazine section (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/index.php). You can look through the old issues and there are links to our online store (http://www.martialartsmart.com) for the issues that are still available. Also, our old cover stories (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/TOCindex.php#C) are available for free online.

So I'd say you have your work cut out for you. You can look at literally hundreds of pictures of Shaolin in our print and online media. Also, we do an annual Shaolin special, so if you're really serious about this research, it's a good time to subscribe! (http://www.martialartsmart.net/19341.html)

Thanks this is most helpful. It doesn't have everything but the main articles should be worth while. This kung fu magazine is so friggin expensive for a poor ole uni student like me.

[GeneChing]

A university student with aspirations of a PhD? Just wait until you start your research and have to deal with scholarly journals and publications. Then you'll know the meaning of "friggin expensive".

Cook someone a hamburger and feed him for a day.
Teach someone to cook their own hamburger and give up the remote forever.

[green_willow]

A university student with aspirations of a PhD? Just wait until you start your research and have to deal with scholarly journals and publications. Then you'll know the meaning of "friggin expensive".

Cook someone a hamburger and feed him for a day.
Teach someone to cook their own hamburger and give up the remote forever.

You sure are old school. there are now online universities where you can do the research from home and send in the papers.

[GeneChing]

Online, eh green_willow? Where are you doing your PhD program, pray tell?

[green_willow]

Online, eh green_willow? Where are you doing your PhD program, pray tell?

Yes. Many things are moving to online. I do most of my studies at home although the local park and the library is good - less distraction. I so fortunate to meet experienced ppl like yourself errrr online to disucss.

Maybe I can give you a call sometime. Online is cool but sometimes face to face discussion helps. Maybe you can PM me your number.

[GeneChing]

Exactly what kind of 'home' are you speaking of? As for my number, it's public record. But please, only call me if there's some business. I don't have the time to just sit and chat. This business I'm in can be very demanding on my time with deadlines and all. If you want to sit and chat, catch up with me at some tournament this year. A few of my mates have always said I should set up a martial arts help line, 976-ask-gene or something. Do you think I can could charge as much as a dirty chat line? :D

[green_willow]

I have a home office, its where I run my busines and do my Phd. Nothing flash, but hey its not the office it's the person that counts right? Having a Gene hotline could seriously be a good idea. there are lots of ppl around the world who are having problems with kung fu. Not the least bit the fact that kung fu is very misunderstood in western society. Yes you probably can charge a lot for this service but I know you better than that. You're not in the kung fu businss for the money.

[GeneChing]

No, I'm not in kung fu for the money because there isn't that much money in kung fu. Had I gone into something like paintball, it would have been much more lucrative for me. But if you want to send me some money, I'll be happy to talk to you on the phone. I charge by the minute, just like any chat line.

And every PhD candidate has a home office. Where are you a candidate?

[green_willow]

No, I'm not in kung fu for the money because there isn't that much money in kung fu. Had I gone into something like paintball, it would have been much more lucrative for me. But if you want to send me some money, I'll be happy to talk to you on the phone. I charge by the minute, just like any chat line.

And every PhD candidate has a home office. Where are you a candidate?

Don't get me wrong Lots of Mc dojos have gotten rich from doing shoddy kung fu. In the past there are also good kung fu masters who have made good living doing body guard duties or working in the military. So doing kung fu does not mean you can't get rich. I just don't think ppl should get rich from selling fakes that's all. I hope all good kung fu masters can make good living and put their kids thru colleage, take their missus out for romantic dinner but at the same time not be complacent in their teaching. also understanding that money can change a person sometimes for the better or worse - its up to the person's choice in the end.

I know, I know, sitting at home doing reaserch is not the best thing. That's why I'm, hopeing later this year when it gets warmer I'll go to china to take in the culture there and hook up with some monks and train with the best. Also hoping to get to Thailand and see what muey thai is all about.

I'm sure, after expanding my personal experience will translate to what I write on paper - and be an inspiration to others. I don't want my thesis to go into a publication and then forgotten. To me it's not after titles, medels, acolades wat everrrrr you want to call it. It's all about personal growth and sharring with others.