Morals, Ethics, Philosophy and CMA

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I am curious about the various perspectives regarding morals or ethics or philosophy as part of someone's training in Chinese Martial Arts.. I have seen more than a few posts where these subjects are discarded in favor of pure fighting disciplines.. others seem to find benefits from these aspects of training..

So, i ask..how do those of you wishing to respond feel about including moral or ethical or philosophical lessons in your training.. i do not intend to imply "religion" as any aspect of the question.. these issues are independent of religion for the purposes of this inquiry.. Also, those not involved in CMA/TCMA have little reason to derail this thread, your opinions are respected but not requested.. the question is specific to Chinese systems.. and, please leave the definition of "Chinese" on the other thread, i am interested in the perspectives of those that have trained in systems generally considered to be of Chinese origin..

Thanks, and.. Be well....

[lkfmdc]

I'm curious why people think "morals" and "ethics" are part of TCMA training?

To me, this is a modern addition, part of a politically correct movement to clean up the martial arts and make them "friendly" to consumers...

I've trained with many respected and well known sifu (Chan Tai San, Jeng Hsin Ping, Wong Ching, YC Wong, Adam Hsu, Yeung Au-Ping, Tai Yim) and found this "feel good" philosophy totally absent

I don't want to say which school, but one school has the Chinese characters for it's tradition's rules posted on the wall. It's in all Chinese and they say it's the "morality" of the system, but it actually says stuff like "don't use your kung fu to rape, steal cattle, etc" NO , I am NOT joking... it is more like "please don't cause sifu pain by doing ilegal crap"...

Martial Arts isn't religion. It isn't philosophy. Aloing the way you may make friends, feel better about yourself, etc etc... but martial arts, especially TCMA were about fighting, more specifically, how to survive in a pretty cruel world with no law and no morals....

I just don't get those who want to turn it into channel five feel good theatre

[PangQuan]

As far as morals and ethics in my TCMA, none is pushed or taught by sifu. Though he was raised in the temple and lived as a monk, it is deffinately part of his training, and is still a very strong part of his life. He will always be buddhist monk.

For myself, this aspect was with me before I began my martial adventure. Even had I never found martial art this still would have been part of my personal cultivation.

As far as martial art in the past. Many times the people who practice are religious, or of higher social class. With both of these class there is a standard of behavior, ethical cultivation was a large part in the creation of this behavioral pattern.

Using ethical and moral conditioning along with enfusing one with deadly martial art skill, will be more likely that they will use thier skill correctly in regards to making morally correct decisions that are in tune with using martial art.

[PangQuan]

an interesting quote comes to mind.

this is made in reference to a list of tradional meditation through zen buddhism.

one view is marvelous function.

the quote:

For realization to be authentic, one must be able to apply it in the actual world. True understanding is reflected in one's technique and also in one's daily life. This is the real battlefield where one's enlightenment is constantly tested.


This follows along the belief that the morality of an individual will determine the level at which their personal martial art will reach.

An evil man will only go so far, yet a man whose morality is in tune with nature and the cosmos has no boundary or limit to thier marial art level.

If one is calm, undisturbed, and unagitated, things can be seen in their true light, and this leads to the development of natural wisdom.

[Samurai Jack]

Well, the "CMA isn't about ethics" crowd certainly explains some of the behavior displayed around here, LOL. But really, I'm pretty sure the monks at Shaolin had some serious ethical training. Of course not all CMA's truly have a link to Buddhist and Taoist monastic traditions. Ah well, tradition means different things to different people. In my experience, most modern JMA put heavy emphasis on ethics. My CMA teachers, not so much. To imply that there isn't merit in attaching a code of ethics to a martial tradition, or outright denying that it existed in ancient times trivializes a very vital and valid approach to Kung Fu training. It also denies the reality of how many systems have been taught for years. Too bad really. To each his own. I'm glad that there is more than one way to skin the martial cat.

[lkfmdc]

I'm pretty sure the monks at Shaolin had some serious ethical training.



Would those be the monks who joined the monastery to escape prosecution for the crimes they committed on the outside world? (like murder)? :rolleyes:

Or the monks who were in fact laymen who just shaved their heads and hid inside the monastery while they planned to overthrow the government? :rolleyes:

Monks in China weren't the saints people think they were....

[lkfmdc]

like "loyalty to your country" (when I asked what country this referred to, I was given a quizzical look, and the one word answer "China", with the intonation that suggested surprise that I could think anything other than that...);



Funny, but we know that did not happen :cool:

That's because we know the only country you had loyalty at that time was Puerto Rico

[lkfmdc]

the China part!!!!!!!!!

[PangQuan]

sitting here thinking about this.

putting in to a larger scale.

In history, when has a force of ill moral character, who is using martial action to take, gone so far as to NOT having been defeated by a force of greater good?

surely there are many cases of one evil man taking and not being dropped there, but what of the larger scale such as invasions and stuff.

it would be need to see a percentile. i know its not possible but it would be coo.

[mantis108]

First and foremost, morals and ethics are relative and imperminant.

I believe today in CMA there is a problem of suedo-religiousim and proliferation of code of conducts that do nothing more than controling the minds and hearts of it practitioners.

Personally, I can not for the life of me understand why people would believe the so called Shaolin monks these days are more powerful because they "are" Buddhists. I honestly don't see them being anywhere near practicing Buddhism other than using it as a marketing point. The fact that someone has Buddhist or Daoist believe doesn't in anyway, form or shape empower him/her by default. That's the suedo-religiousim that I mentioned. I don't understand why people look to them as their "masters". As far as I am concern, these "masters" are just career people dressed in Buddhist monks habits that's all. They are in no way holy men whatsoever. The physcial feast that they can do are no more real than any other street or circus performers.

I believe it is important to have discipline in order to become good at anything. What is more important is to become a better person IMHO. No one needs to learn or to practice to fight. Anyone can go and fight if he wishes so. In a way, when a figther desires to learn or practice fighting, it is in fact his way of saying he wants to apply himself in a better way (to increase his chances of winning, etc). He is in fact saying he wants to better himself. This already distinguished him from a brawler (senseless violence lover) not to mention if the said fighter chooses the time, the venue and the format to fight. He is willing to accept and welcome discipline in order to better himself. Now we could argue about his goal to win but we can not deny that his intent to be a better person albeit its limiting scope.

We should not confuse discipline with code of conducts which could be arbitrary. In Hindu traditions, Yama (the 5 disciplines) are meant to be tools of self restrain or abstinence in order to focus on the "learning" and training which is through out life. For example, do not drink alcohol or stay away from "recreational" use of drugs is in fact important for training to fight or even for athletics for that matter. We know that there are harmful effects on our mind-body continuum with "suppliments" (ie steroid) if we do not pay attention to the use of those. Also do not lie is important in the sense that a fighter must be honest to himself and to others to guage his own abilities against others and in turn that honesty will inspire others to respect the fighter's abilities. Unfortunately, Chinese elaborated on the Yama with some Confucius ethical values. This unnecessarily complicated things.

Philosophy is the guiding principle of how we view the reality (the ecology of space-time continuum and mind-body continuum) and how we interact with it. In layman's term whether you decided to fight or flight and you fight "clean" or you fight "dirty" that's no doubt determined by your "philosophy" which simply means how you thing of your chance of survival.

Just some thoughts for this very interesting topic.

Mantis108

[lkfmdc]

Those 10 things by the way I got from Moo Duk Kwan (ie Korean martial art), at the time I thought "well, all the really cool schools have stuff like this" but I've subsequently said "f it all" :eek:

Regardless, it is important to point out that the concept and the 10 came from a non Chinese martial art, specifically Korean. If any tradition DOES have a moral sort of backing, it is Korean martial arts.... but that is another post entirely

[TenTigers]

I remember learning the creed when I studied Moo Duk Kwan and found it weird as you see this sudden shift..
"Honor your parents"
"Respect you Elders"
"Always finish what you start"
"Never Retreat in Battle"
"Be discreet in Killing"

don't remember all of them but those stood out in my mind.
(never showed them to Mom n Dad either)

[Xiao3 Meng4]

This is just stuff I've noticed.

Buddhist Martial Arts generally have a code of conduct or a set of rules. Yip Man Wing Chun has a Code of Conduct. The Ving Tsun Museum has it archived here:
http://home.vtmuseum.org/genealogy/yip_man/code_of_conduct.php

Its rules reflect not only buddhist but confucian ideals.

Morihei Ueshiba taught an ethical system within his Aikido. I suspect it was influenced by Buddhism, Confucianism, and whatever Samurai ethics he had. It can be found in the book "The Dynamic Sphere." It's essentially a spectrum of moral warrior behaviour, from least moral to most moral:

1. The warrior is provoked and kills his opponent.
2. The warrior provokes his opponent into attacking, then kills him.
3. The warrior is attacked without provocation; the opponent is killed.
4. The warrior is attacked without provocation; at the end of the confrontation, both participants walk away unharmed.


Taoist Martial Arts work off of a different Ethical System. The primary goal of Taoist Martial Arts is to develop the individual's natural survival skills, including balance and conservation of energy. Anything beyond that is about choice, however the more wholitiscally balanced a person is, the more objectively they are able to assess their options.

What about other arts? How About Xin Yi or Sumo? Muay Thai or Kali?


Personally, I think it's important for instructors to realize their ethical responsiblities, especially if they're going to preach ethics, respect, and honour in class. The more emphasis an instructor places on those items, the more paternal or maternal a role that instructor is likely to take with students, becoming like a father or mother figure, a master to whom all loyalty and respect must be offered. This tends to breed a) a HUGE ego in the instructors, and b) a HUGE expectation of the instructor within the students. Of course, instructors are simply human, and often make mistakes - after all, instructors are still students, too. However, the greater the moral an ethical expectations, the greater the dissapointment in students when the instructor breaches one of those morals or ethical boundaries. I know of a few incidents where schools taught very formal codes of respect and honour, frowned on grass, etc... next thing you know, one of the students catches the instructor (in some cases, married) boinking one of the other students at a tournament (or after class, or before class). Guess what this eventually does to the instructor and his/her school.


CSP

[lkfmdc]

some might argue that MDK / Tang Soo Do were more Chinese than Korean anyway...



The ideas expressed in those 10 "rules" are distinctly Korean, and as "peculiar" to Korean thinking as Ten Tigers suggested. Currently being related to Koreans, I must say they are quite different than Chinese, with very unique values and world views... in fact, I've come to understand my sabanim and Korean martial arts training much more over the last few years as a result... but that is another thread entirely

[Samurai Jack]

Would those be the monks who joined the monastery to escape prosecution for the crimes they committed on the outside world? (like murder)? :rolleyes:

Or the monks who were in fact laymen who just shaved their heads and hid inside the monastery while they planned to overthrow the government? :rolleyes:

Monks in China weren't the saints people think they were....

Nah. I mean the monks who joined the monastery to be Buddhist monks. Sort of absurd to jump out and assume that because some Buddhist temples have harbored criminals and revolutionaries, that all monks were criminals and revolutionaries. In fact, it's also absurd to assume that even if that were the case, the men and women who became monks didn't follow a code of ethics. Buddhism is by definition a religion that if founded on a code of ethics i.e. the four noble truths, the eightfold path, the bodhisattva vows, the ten grave precepts, and on, and on, and on. Kung Fu isn't the only thing that came out of Shaolin. An entire culture of Buddhist thought did as well. Surely you are aware of this?

[lkfmdc]

Sort of absurd to jump out and assume that because some Buddhist temples have harbored criminals and revolutionaries, that all monks were criminals and revolutionaries.



Of course not all monks were criminals or revolutionaries, just the ones who did martial arts :rolleyes:

I am being somewhat sarcastic, but not totally.... most real Buddhist monks chant, meditate and don't do much else.. the so called "martial monks" were seldom real or full time monks...

Do you know how many "monks" in Kung Fu lineages had houses outside the monastery, wives, family?? A LOT....

The reality is, learning how to twist people's arms, beat them with sticks and stab them with swords isn't very compatable with being a real Buddhist monk!!!!!

[hskwarrior]

LET ME JUMP IN ON THIS ONE.


ETHICS, MORALS, AND PHILOSOPHY IN MARTIAL ARTS ARE A VERY INDIVIDUAL AND PERSONAL QUEST. I DON'T BELIEVE A TEACHER SHOULD PUSH ANYONE ELSE'S PHILOSOPHY, OR MORALS, THAT'S FOR YOUR BIOLOGICAL PARENTS.

TCMA IS A MARTIAL ART. WHAT IS " MARTIAL ART?" THE ART OF WAR. tHE REASON YOU LEARN MARTIAL ARTS IS SO THAT YOU CAN PROTECT YOURSELF IF THE OCCASION EVER AROSE.

IF A STUDENT WAS LOOKING FOR THE "ESOTERIC" SIDE OF CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS I WOULD TELL THEM THERE'S A GOOD SECTION FOR THAT AT THE BOOKSTORE.

SO IN FINISHING, THE TOPIC CAN'T AND SHOULD NEVER BE PUSHED ONTO ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL UNLESS THAT PERSON IS SEARCHING FOR THAT IN HIS OR HER LIFE. IT IS A PERSONAL BELIEF, AND IS NOT MEANT FOR THE MASSES.


HOPE I MADE SENSE.

PEACE---HSK

[hskwarrior]

What Criminals Are You Talking About?

Shaolin Temple Would Never Harbor Out Right Killers, Serial Killers, Rapists, And Such To Keep Them From Being Captured By The Government.

It Is Unfair To Label The Revolutionaries That Had Used The Temple As A Refuge To Call Them Criminals. The Temple Was In Kahoots With Them. Revolutinaries (in Most Cases) Were Fighting The Government Over The Blatant Mistreatment By The Ching Empire At The Time.

The Martial Monks Were There To Protect The Temple, And Would Never Hurt Anyone Unless It Was Life Or Death. There Are No Reports That I Have Ever Come Across That Stated There Were Rogue Shaolin Monks Terrorizing The Country Side. These Martial Monks Also Followed Buddhism As Well.

If I Am Wrong In Any Way, Pls Inform Me On What Monks Were Considered Criminals?

Hsk

[SPJ]

Agreed.

morality, ethics, and life philosophy are personal CHOICES.

However, as Ykw pointed out, there are Men Gui or house rules or mutually understood code of ethics come with the learning of the said style or school of fightings.

How you enforce them in the modern time is another story.

I was driving down on the harbor blvd in the big orange.

There I saw a sign for karate Wu De Hui or association of ethics in Karate.

Kong Shou Dao Wu De Hui in Kang ji or Chinese characters, Han Zi.

:eek:

[lkfmdc]

What Criminals Are You Talking About?

Shaolin Temple Would Never Harbor Out Right Killers, Serial Killers, Rapists, And Such To Keep Them From Being Captured By The Government.



I'm afraid you need to learn more about Chinese history and culture. In every part of China, it was an accepted practice for men who committed crimes to agree to become monks rather than serve sentences or be executed. In the Chinese mind, once they shaved their hair and went "inside" the monastery, they were no longer threats to society...

If every other temple in China had thieves, killers, rapists and assorted criminals in them, you think Shaolin did not? That's just a fairy tale notion....

Feudal China had many legal twists that a Westerner not familiar with the culture could never understand

There is a technique called "Mai Tin Jaahg Faat"... it means literally "sell the field to get free technique"... implying you'd kill somone with that technique. Because in old feudal China, if you killed someone, you could avoid prosecution if you paid off the family, usually by sellig some land...

The martial hero novels were just that, FICTION, too bad too many believe them like fact..

[hskwarrior]

lkfmdc,

yadda yadda yadda.


where do you get your information there buddy?

[hskwarrior]

so enlighten us lfkdmc............


what is your extent of knowledge on chinese culture? where did you get this vast knowledge?

what makes you possess the correct knowledge as opposed to anyone else?

I can see that you feel you are more cultured in chinese society than i am? HMMM.

nice to dream.


but break it down to me. tell me about all the experience you've had.

I hope its not as simple as going to chinatown for dimsum. I hope that doesn't backfire on you one day. You're not dealing with the real chinatown like i am.

but i'll let you tell it.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The old temples, very old, have philosophical and ethical inscriptions and art.. of course, history reveals the customs of some temples harboring social outcasts.. but to make the leap of logic that most monks were that way is without documented support.. there were a variety of motivations for the monastic life.. After Da Mo the practice of "Martial Monks", defenders of the temples, became quite popular.. now, as fate would have it, the social outcasts in these temples were predisposed to this sort of discipline and often became the better defenders of the temples.. but, they trained and practiced in an atmosphere infused with philosophy and ethics.. For us to assert "Traditional" Chinese Martial Arts, we are obligated to teach it in the same cultural traditions.. not to push it on the students, but to give them an understanding of the cultural environment from which the Art evolved.. otherwise, it would be like teaching Law without the links to English Common Law, the Code of Hammurabi or the Latin constructs.. Certainly, we have no "right" to demand adherence to a philosophy, but understanding the philosophy is part of what makes an art "traditional"..

Many of the more popular CMAs were developed under Taoist supervision and infused with Taoist pragmatism.. Chinese culture during the formative years of TCMA was heavily influenced by Confucian concepts.. These are some of the elements that confer the term "traditional".. Some will say that this has no bearing on learning to fight, i suggest that it may have, at least, some positive influence. Taoist notions of adherence to natural rhythms and cycles, notions of good health habits and energy cultivation have long been associated with enhanced martial skill.. Taoist philosophies and disciplines can benefit a myriad of other styles of MA and good living in general.. Confucian ethics insure a mutually respected encounter between potential adversaries, the chance to continue training rather than repeated duels (greatly diminishing the student population)..

In times such as we live in now, i find favor with notions of honor, WuDe, purpose and compassion.. equally, i find comfort in hard training so we can keep these arts alive and prospering.. i find favor with sharp skills that serve a purpose other than pure competition.. a purpose like improving the human condition.. There is, indeed, a fine line between the consequences of "purposes".. and, that is where familiarity with various philosophies can make a difference.. not that one should adhere to any philosophy not of their own choosing, but that they can gauge the likely consequences of Martial knowledge with a purpose consistent with an improved human condition.. most philosophies seek harmony as opposed to chaos, though the means to an end can vary dramatically.. (as my boss, an ex B-52 pilot once said.. "there's nothing more peaceful than a bunch of dead folks"..)..:eek:

This is an intriguing issue.. should we offer lessons in the philosophies that were fundamental cultural concepts during the development of the Arts? Not structured dogmatic teachings, but.. occasional insights into how a philosophical concept might affect training or use of the Art. Many people have very fervent beliefs regarding the term "Warrior", one of my beliefs is that a "Warrior" acts on behalf of a harmonious purpose.. this in no way discounts martial ability, it merely guides the responsible use of it..


Random thoughts, again.. Be well..

[WanderingMonk]

one way the chinese government in the dynastic time control the monastic population is through "du die". An certificate which must bear official seal, any monk without this certificate is not considered a monk by the government. This mean, this "monk" without certificate is subject to tax or draft in time of war.

In Tang and Song Dynasty, the treasury was short on money, hence, a practice of selling blank certificate was adopted. hence, a person can purchase this certificate and fill in their information later when they decide to join the monastic order. Or when the tax become very heavy or there's a national emergency, people will fill out their blank certificate and have legal reason to refuse payment.

On a strict dollars and cents, one might not see the value of buddhist order. but, if they take the calculation to include social order, general spiritual health of population, etc, etc, then a thriving buddhist population provide more benefit than drawbacks.

by the way, stabbing someone might be too extremely, but hitting someone on the head may very well be another name for skillful means (or expedient means depending on your preference of translaton). Some people are very big on this thing called Buddhist guardians or unorthodox initiation, it all depend if there's any bodhicitta.

[Scott R. Brown]

Ethical principles are present within all social structures. Codes of behavior are necessary for harmonious social interactions. There are always behaviors considered right or wrong within every social group. What these behaviors are may vary somewhat from group to group, but they are necessary to provide social cohesion. At the very least a universal social ethic within all groups is, “Don’t screw over those within our group!!”

There are also universal ethical principles within all schooling groups namely: “Respect the teacher and respect fellow students.” These codes of conduct ARE forced upon the students within ALL successful schools. Without them learning is disrupted and the group will eventually dissolve. Students follow these codes of behavior for their own benefit and the benefit of the group. (i.e. If I don’t respect the instructor he wont teach me! If I don’t respect my fellow students they won’t help me learn and the instructor won’t teach me!) Those who do not follow these codes are ostracized from the group for the purpose of preserving the integrity of the group.

Other codes of conduct are valuable to learn and it is reasonable for a MA instructor to teach them. Enforcing them is another matter. For example: There is a time to fight and a time to run! There is a time to hurt and a time to maim! There is a time to maim and a time to kill! If a student is exposed to these principles within the class he will be better prepared to choose the proper action according to the specific circumstance. To think that it is not the instructor’s responsibility to discuss such concepts with the student exposes the student to what may be unanticipated social and legal consequences. Gun classes always involve the legal ramifications of improper gun usage, MA classes should also teach the ramifications of MA usage. It is to the benefit of the student and the school. Schools are not above civil law suits if a student or their family believes improper teaching methods exposed the student to unanticipated consequences. If an individual chooses to disregard the behavior codes at least they are doing so knowing the consequences they may expect to experience.

Without codes of conduct learning will not take place efficiently. Other codes of conduct protect the individual from anticipated and unanticipated consequences. Some codes of conduct inspire admiration from the general public towards the students of a school. This works to the benefit of the school and the students who gain prestige and respect and increased class enrollment!

Teaching ethical behavior codes serves a purpose and that purpose is the greater good of the group and the individual!

[lkfmdc]

hskwarrior ,

Hate to break it to you, but my credentials to speak about the true history and culture of China far exceeds yours, as Chris Jurak just indicated with but one exception

Actually, my master's in Chinese history is from George Washington University's Elliott School of international affairs, when I was there it was the #3 international affairs school in the country.

Oh, and I held teaching positions in the history departments of Yeshiva University and NYU....

But who am I to talk about Chinese history :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

chris,

If what you back up about lkf??? then thats fine. if he has the degree's, then fine. thats no sweat off my shoulders. It is a possibility i could be wrong. never claimed to always be right. But when it comes to chinese culture im no square.

I just don't like his bragging nature. and if he truly lived around a lot of chinese then he should know the chinese don't like braggarts, and all he does is toot his horn. maybe thats a ny thing. he acts like a know it all, and tries to rub it in peoples faces.

I may not have gone to college and got some degrees in chinese history, but it is a passion of mine and i do it everyday.

speaking of new york, beware of the bay area's DOGHOUSE radio show. They are doing their first show out of Stern's old studio. These guys are the funniest things i've seen in a long time. The radio station i think is called Free fm.

[hskwarrior]

see what i mean?:confused:

This man is so full of himself.

if he really knew, chinese shun that. they won't in your face, but behind your back they will talk about that.


he's like a spoiled little kid who has a new pair of shoes and mocks everyone who doesn't.

but he does remind me of what the sf bay area chinese call Yellow fever. he's not chinese, but has learned gung fu, went to china, married a chinese, wanted to learn and speak chinese, probably eats all his chinese food with chop sticks, and acts and thinks like a chinese much like bruce leroy. hahahahaha thats who he reminds me of........Bruce LeeRoy.



From this point on i only know him now as that.

frank

[lkfmdc]

Frank, hate to break it to you, but you're an idiot...

You talk about me? I've seen you post a thousand times on how special your brand of Choy Lay Fut is blah blah blah.... how much time you spent in your Chinatown, self appointed historian and authority... If anyone comes off as a "wannabe" it's you!

Sorry if my achievement bothers you so much, I get that a lot... it is called insecurity

But before you post out of your arse, you should be warned that you don't know much about the people you post about...

I've close to 30 years now in TCMA, running in circles you seem to so desperately want to affiliate yourself with... I never make an issue of it. Not only am I an adopted, senior disciple of Chan Tai san, I've studied with a great number of very famous sifu. I've even spent considerable time in your neck of the woods. Stop posting like a 'tard because you're coming off more and more like a moron on here

[David Jamieson]

I'm curious why people think "morals" and "ethics" are part of TCMA training?


Because what you lack in actual curriculum, you can backfill with a lot of nonsense.

For kids, as long as it fits the social more, I don't have a problem with it. regular shoulds and shouldn'ts of everyday life. But to try and lay that on a 30 something is at worst ludricous and at best the actions of a pompous ass. :p

[hskwarrior]

id rather be an idiot then be as funny looking as you.:)

shave your head dude.

How special my brand of clf is? what the f?
self appointed historian? fool. check my certificate on my website. it was giving to me by my sifu sealed with his sig and chop. it also says that im the branch historian for our school. now what?

i've checked your website, and dude, you're no threat.


if i was worried about the little success you claim to have then you could talk ****.
you are a commercial martial arts school, and just becuase you may have a few students doesn't mean you're at the top. i don't care what you claim, or how you try to offend me, but i will brag about this, you could never go through what i've been thru in life, especially being paralyzed from the waist down and come back like i did. until you do, you are just another guy wishing to be chinese.

if you ask me, and i've shown a few your website now, it seems that im not the one here being laughed at. you don't know me, or nothing about me.

the posts i put up here are 100% of the time only half assed. i ask questions to wake this funky ass place up. if you see right, anything my name goes on here on this forum the ratings skyrocket.

you are a sucker my friend. how you gonna call me a wanna be when you can find me in chinatown, ask any of the chinatown schools, shop owners, or restaurants if they have ever heard of me or recognize me. I know all the sifu's here. I know and can intorduce you to tong big wigs. and I am the first non chinese to record Professor Lau Buns history. yes as a non chinese i have broken barrier neither you or most never will. SF's chinatown is way different than anything you've ever expected, and you are exactly the type of non chinese we always talk about and laugh at. you know the one who trys to absorb as much chinese culture as he could so he can impress other chinese. He starts dating chinese girls. Why is that? why do non chinese people go and learn TCMA and want to be chinese? these non chinese even go so far as to correct chinese people at the pronounciation or whatever of their own language.

you know i told my sifu about how you tried to clown the tien in his name and he laughed saying "he thinks i should call it Hin Loong? lol! fool! picking on something so minute as a name. LOL!!!!!


I'm going on 25 years tears in TCMA with the same exact teacher i had when i first started. Is TCMA all of my martial art background? NO! I've been around the martial arts and doing it since the age of 5 while my father and older brother were black belts. Im' 37 now, so you ain't that far off from me there buddy.

what circles are you referring to? you say im trying to run in them? how would you know who i try to run with? its' not me running around here bragging how successfull i am, or what degrees i hold, or how many teachers i've taken. So What!? whats that mean? see, i don't take you serious because you are a new yorker. ya'll always talk like this. so as we say here in the bay "It's nuthin!"

http://www.hsclf.zoomshare.com/1.shtml/Hung%20Loong%20Kwoon

***Very bottom last on the left is my self appointed Historianship certificate************


But, i won't waste my time arguing here on this forum with you. Its senseless.

[lkfmdc]

Let's remind the world who you are

http://www.hlk.zoomshare.com/my_images/backofshirt4057.jpg

Pathetic, fat, bald POC... tuck your shirt in you slob

You work out everyday? What kind of "warrior" are you? Looks like your last battle was with a dozen donuts.

What you are? A high school drop out? From your posts you're barely literate. Maybe you were paralyzed from the neck UP..

Does it bother you that not only do I have legitimate martial arts skills, but I also have an education?

Your entire life appears "half assed"

Do you have any idea who you are talking to? Dude my baai si name is "Chan Sai Hung"... for a self appointed Choy Lay Fut person, do you have any idea who that is??

The fact I am a adopted disciple of Chan Tai San means I've forgotten more Choy Lay Fut than you've ever learned. You aren't qualified to wash my underwear.

I speak fluent Chinese and am well known not only in NY's Chinatown but YOURS AS WELL...

Feel free to come to my school any time you are in NY, I'll even fix your pathetic Chaap Choih....

[TenTigers]

I believe at least for myself-teaching morals and ethics is the responsibility of the Sifu. I believe this for several reasons-
one, yes, I teach children and teens. and although it is the parents responsibility, we are also looked at as second parents by many of the kids, as well as some of their parents. Teaching fighting without morality is simply irresponsible.
two-a student's behavior directly reflects on the Sifu and the Mo-Gwoon, just as it reflects on their parents. So not only do I have a reponsibility to society, but a reputation in the local community, as well as Mo-Lum, that I would not want to see tarnished by teaching irresponsibly.
Three, or two and a half, or one-B..or...
Our Mo-Gwoon is very much like a family. We develop close bonds, and we take care of each other. The relationship between a Sifu and student is one of trust, honor,love and loyalty. There is a bond of brotherhood among Hing-Dai. I think of my students as so much more than simply customers, and they do not look at the school as if it were simply a mambership at Gold's, or extra-curricular activity.
I do teach for a living, and I suppose in that respect I am a merchant.
BUT..if I treat my students like MERCHANDISE, then I am a merchant first, and a Sifu second. That is not my way.
Oh, and Ross-Sifu doesn't represent all of us NY'ers.:D Dave is Dave. Love him, or hate him, he's always gonna be Dave. In the years that I have known him, he has done alot for the CMA community and represented his Sifu and lineage honorably.
Hey,Some people like to upset the applecart, David likes to kick it over.:p

[lkfmdc]

yes as a non chinese i have broken barrier neither you or most never will.



What's pathetic is you don't realize how delluded and sad you sound. Again, you have no idea who you are talking to, and just make yourself look like the moron you are

http://message.axkickboxing.com/images/user_uploaded/lkfmdc/group.jpg

Just a random pic of the people who I've spent time with and accept me as one of their own.... do you even know who they are?

[hskwarrior]

I want to explain what i meant.

There is a very big trend of non chinese who have never prior to learning gung fu-hung out, had friends, or even had chinese food. They take up classes at a gung fu school then a transformation happens. All of a sudden they want to become confuscious, speak in chinese, hope that other chinese will see and be impressed with what little skill you have. Then they drop their old friends and pick up a bunch of Chinese ones. After that they start dating only chinese girls. Want a chinese name ( i got one because i deal with the chinese community), then even go so far as to tell someone chinese "you're saying that wrong"! To someone chinese!?!?! can you believe that sheet?:confused:

Now, for non chinese -its ok to absorb the art, and even learn the culture, but you don't have to live the culture. When you look into the mirror you, me and the rest of the world know you're not chinese, so why even go there? I am speaking with years and years of experience, and witnessing everything i've mentioned. And in one of the chapters of the book im writing called "Bak Gwai" i talk about non chinese and this transformation that goes on, and how the chinese truly laugh behind your backs becuase they can see what is happening.

99% of my friends going back to grade school have been asian whether its filipino's, chinese, laos, polynesians, or what ever, but there are only a few causaian people i have met in my life that i get along with(joe keit being one of them). I was rasied so very different then most white folks (well, i'm half Sicilian and most of us don't call ourselves white). So from my vantage point because of how i was raised i could see all the things that non chinese do, and can understand why they never wanted non chinese to learn their marital art.


brain ****.........oops.....sorry!


hsk

[lkfmdc]

Gam San Yaau Meng Yan sik neih? Neih hai gam san tang yan gai yaau meng mah? Sou yi, neih gong guang dong wah? Neig yaau myuhn mei ah tong pai? Mou sik guangdong wah mah? Lau Bun hai Toi San yan, sou yi neih sik toi san wah? Giu ngoh!!!

Sau tao, neih hai mou yan, fai jai gong dai wah. Leih ng sik ngoh, neih hai mou yan...

[hskwarrior]

Fongu! Stugatz you fugazee!

here i've posted others i've taken pictures with as well....


http://www.sifufmccarthy.zoomshare.com/1.shtml/Masters%20I%27ve%20photo%20album
See what i mean!!!!! wannabe chinese.


LOL!

[lkfmdc]

You want to be taken seriously as "in the door" yet you don't know basic Chinese?

You are a joke... a fat, pathetic, ignorant joke...
http://www.hlk.zoomshare.com/my_images/backofshirt4057.jpg

Your comtemporaries apparently are donut shop clerks and fast food counter people.

These are my contemporaries
http://message.axkickboxing.com/images/user_uploaded/lkfmdc/group.jpg

[hskwarrior]

I can see how spoiled you really are.

If that's how you think you can beat me by ranting in chinese you're a fool.

now, you should know i will have it translated and if you are talking sheet aboutl lau bun, then two can play the game.

[lkfmdc]

now, you should know i will have it translated and if you are talking sheet aboutl lau bun, then two can play the game.



You claim to have been accepted into the Chinese community and you can't even grasp basic Cantonese! What a pathetic, fat, ignorant fool you are. Go ahead and take it to someone Chinese and when you ask them to translate, they'll be laughing so hard at you they may not be able to tell you what it means, so give them a minute...

You really have no idea who you are talking to, which makes it even funnier. For you to tell me you've been accepted in places I'll never know, man you're a comin book. Can you identify the teachers in the pic I posted above? Do you have any idea the people I know or the organizations I belong to?

Again, I invite you to drop by any time, I'll fix your pathetic technique for you....

[hskwarrior]

who says it necessary to learn basic chinese for anything. if thats what you were told you a bigger fool.

you can't talk much stumpy!

Im fat (but knows how to use it) because of being paralyzed and was limited until recently with my movement. If you have anysense, even butter bean was fat and an ass kicker. But once again, all you can do is pick on pointless sheet. you spoiled little biatch.

so what im fat. that means nothing. i would love for you to undersestiimate me because im fat. why don't you talk to people that have played hands with me, see what they have to say?

See weight can be lost, but you will always look that silly for the rest of your life.
sorry bro.

[hskwarrior]

the people i know will only ask who's this talking sheet? Want me to deal with him?

you're a sheet talker. get a Too Pei (however its spelled.)

oh see i can lose my fat, but you can never regrow your hair. sorry sucker.

[lkfmdc]

I didn't just make fun of your weight

I pointed out you are ignorant and barely speak the English language, yet you are writing a book!!! Please, refund the money to anyone who buys it NOW...

I pointed out you have crappy technique. Your chaap choih is a joke, so is your stance. After you claim to have 20 plus years of training, you can't execute the most basic strike and stance??

I pointed out that you are NO ONE, MOU YAN, a clueless wannabe.. Nice trying to duck any of the issues..

I have been accepted among the top elite of TCMA. At 19 I was performing in the NACMAF national master's demonstration. WHere were you? Where was your sifu even?

[lkfmdc]

This is me
http://message.axkickboxing.com/images/user_uploaded/lkfmdc/sifurosskick.jpg

Do you think I'm afraid of YOU

Whatever drugs you are taking, take more, maybe you'll fall asleep and not post and then people will forget about you, you're the laughing stock of the forum by now

[hskwarrior]

is it contemporaries or Comtemporaries?

you're not thinking nasty little thoughts about me are you?


its not that type of party dude.:(


you are dilusioned to think that you have to learn the language to become something in the martial art world.

call me fat, it seems you should become a member and hopefully one day the President of the Hair Club for Men. You are definetely a poster child candidate for the organization.

LOL and he called ME fat:D

[hskwarrior]

you still look stupid and i have one of those photo's before my accident. LOL

[hskwarrior]

I've seen all you websites stuff and dropped my soda on the floor because i laughed so **** much.

for someone with so much chinese knowledge, where are your chinese students?

or do they think you look funny too?

[lkfmdc]

You must be mentally retarded to want to talk about hair, let's look again
http://www.hlk.zoomshare.com/my_images/backofshirt4057.jpg

Let's all stop and note that you have nothing to say... I am a senior adopted disciple of a famous Master, Chan Tai San

My Baai Si name is Chan Sai Hung, you're too ignorant to even understand what that means

I was invited by NACMAF to perform at the national masters demonstration at 19.

My circle of friends included the late master Lee Koon Hung, Wai Hong, Deric Mimms, Anthony Goh, Poi Chan, etc

I've been teaching for close to 20 years, the first years right in the heart of Chinatown.

My memberships in respected Chinese organizations is a laundry list of "who is who"

I really think you got it all wrong, you weren't paralyzed below the waist, you had brain damage....

[lkfmdc]

I've seen all you websites stuff and dropped my soda



I hope it was DIET soda, master of twinkie fu, you shouldn't be drinking reglar soda...

Did your accident involve slipping on a candy rapper while running to the door to meet the pizza delivery man?

[hskwarrior]

the only thing nice about your website is the artwork.


nah, you ain't gots to be afraid of ghetto-fied fatboy over here?


I have students who are hard core fighters, even a few 2 strike felons who would eat you for lunch, but they still chose me to teach them choy lee fut. go figure.

your words are just that. and you are just one little man. You can down my writing all you like, but remember, it will only be you! the proof is in the pudding, and when it comes out, and the sales soar, i'll even autograph you a copy after you buy one. believe me, when my material gets out on the market, you will be amongst the first to get it just because you want to see what i really got. Don't you?

you know your face looks like a troll from Lord or the Rings. LOL.

and he calls me fat> Hah! LOL

oh yeah, if my technique sucks, then tell me whats wrong with it? so you can tell how good i actually can be based off of a demostration picture? u do know that the poses were just that, poses, nothing in action? Those pictures are for my students and grand students in Kansas to refer to when they have questions. I put out the sets on that site so they can see for themselves bits and pieces in case they forgot.

You are so arrogant that you think based off some BS pictures, you can tell if i got skill or not, huh?

OK i'll let you tell it.

[lkfmdc]

I have students who are hard core fighters



I detect you are running away from my challenge? Why bring up your students. You're the one talking crap and you're the one whose technique I want to fix...

Trust me, you do NOT want to make it a student vs student thing. Ask around before you write a check you can not cash.

Why can't you counter anything I've written fat boy? Because you are NO ONE, with crap technique, the sort of guy the real Mo Lum laughs at...

[hskwarrior]

actually i fell 50 feet breaking 3 parts of my back and told that i would never walk again after slipping on your lost tupei.

hey, you don't wear one when you compete or what ever do you? how do you keep it attached to your head?

[lkfmdc]

I strongly suspect you suffered brain damage.... it's the only explanation for your ridiculous posts...

[TenTigers]

um, hate to interrupt but......can someone please remind me what the topic of this thread was? :p :D

[lkfmdc]

Sifu Kellerman, with all due respect, he's the one who came on here acting like he's "in the door" and, to coin a term, "og"... He has no idea who he's talking to and he is the one who wanted to make this personal, so now it IS personal. And if he ever brings his fat ass to NY, I'm going to correct his lame technique....

[hskwarrior]

if i don't see anything i need to counter, then why should i counter?

you are not throwing anything at me worth while.

there's no challenge because you're no threat. don't get mad, we're miles away.

you talk a lot of sheet but can't take it, huh?

very telling.

[lkfmdc]

What prominent teachers are your friends? You claim to have goten acceptance in the Chinese community that no others have? Can you post a picture like the one I did?

What organizations do you belong to? You can't have been very well accepted if you weren't invited to join major organizations.

What masters demonstrations have they asked you to perform in?

When was the last time you or one of your students entered a fighting competition and won?

If those are posed pics, I can only imagine how horrible you look in motion! LMFAO... if you can't see how bad your chaap choih is you're beyond hope.

You're running pretty fast, but that's good exercise for you and you really need it...

[hskwarrior]

you're a f'n loud mouth wannabe chinese know it all, your responses to people are always so very rude. Im not the only one here that feels that way, i just speak up.

I don't make empty threats, and let words **** my off. I can easily spout off the same about you coming to SF.

you shouldn't be upset that people stand up to your mouthiness. and now you act like you can kick my ass. what ever gave you that self righteous notion?


so don't be all ****ed off. you made it personal when you attacked my fattness! LOL.

hey i can see my Dik though, thats all that matters.

[hskwarrior]

proof is in the pudding,
and i won't play the name dropping game.

that's where i end this. you didn't win, i won't involve people who have nothing to do with this.


peace

[TenTigers]

Mo Lum Yat Ga! Mo Lum Yu- yeah, I know,"shut up, Rik"..(sigh) ok, I'll just go over here and sit down. (walks away, hands in pockets, head down, shuffling feet, kicking stones...grumbling....:o )

[lkfmdc]

I guess Chris was right, you've never been able to date a Chinese woman, so you're bitter I was married to one.

Have you ever been with ANY woman? Or was that movie about you? You know the "40 year old virgin"...

It's pretty obvious the only place you've been accepted is in your own fantasy world. You don't even dare try to match my accomplishments.

I'm not the one "mouth boxing" here, you just tucked your 2-incher between your leg and ran away....

Face it, you're a pathetic POC who has nothing and is upset not only that people like me exist, but that we point out how wrong and pathetic you are...

Run and have my Cantonese translated, I can't wait....

[lkfmdc]

It's ok Rik, I know you are trying to be good and all, I just had to put an old school on this POC... I've watched him post on the southern forums for a while his crap, and he had it coming....

He can't drop names because he has NONE...

Some have a big face and no stance.... he has no face and no stance

[hskwarrior]

until we cross hands and you will see.

talk all you want. it doesn't hurt me, make me, or break me. you are always name dropping because you lack something. you are overcompensating for whatever it is. thats not my problem. I don't need to brag about this or that, who i know or don't but my website surely does have me spending time with certain people.

i lead never follow or chase big names down so i can hang on their coat tails.

you brag so **** much i wonder why?

oh, you mean me, the one who's never dated any asians? is that right? oh, i see, you must think you're special because you were once married to one. well, hate to break it to ya buddy, speak to anyone who knows me, until now i only dated asians. never had a white girl friend in my life. sorry to dissappoint you. Last asian girls lives in Indonesia now, she is chinese and way more than you can ever handle with your incher.

see i may have 2 inches, but thats still 2 more than what you got. LOL

[Ou Ji]

Well, that was an exciting couple of pages. Sorry but you both lose. It just looks like a couple of white guys trying to out chinese each other.

It would have been a bit more interesting if there was at least the possibility of a real fight but we all know there's a zero chance of that ever happening.

For the ones that are following the topic of this thread you might consider this public display as being indicative of the lack of morals, ethics, and philosophy being taught in CMA. :D

(running away and hiding from the retribution) :p

[TenTigers]

I only have 4inches-but she likes it that fat!:D

[lkfmdc]

Pathetic little troll.... so mentally deficient yet trying to act so tough. You jut don't grasp it, I didn't have to chase anyone, because unlike you, I am real.

By the way, MORON, the picture I posted was taken in San Francisco at Tat Mau Wong's event, where were you?

Ou Ji, I'm not Chinese nor trying to be Chinese, my teacher happened to not speak English, as many top teachers from the mainland do not, so I learned. I don't have to be Chinese to know real history from fairy tale.... nor Chinese to correct ignorant louts like "warrior"... LMFAO @ his screen name

[hskwarrior]

you r wrong ou ji, especially since you are closer to me then the rest here.

he needs someone to put his ass in check with all of his mouthiness, im not the only feels this way. theres more than 1 person thanking me for hitting him like this.

hsk

[Ou Ji]

Since I'm a stright up type of guy I tell it like I see it. You both are looking like kids in the playground, certainly not like respected Sifus (my opinion).

The word 'humble' ran from you guys a long time ago.

Frank, you'll hate me for publicly saying this but I feel you have a chip you need to get off your shoulder. If you didn't try so hard to be liked and respected maybe it will actually happen.

Dave, you toot your horn way too much for my taste and I find it annoying. Too bad it overshadows your accomplishments. Tell God I said hello next time you're hanging with him.

BTW, I'm nobody so don't work up too much of a sweat over my comments.

[lkfmdc]

theres more than 1 person thanking me for hitting him like this.



Are these your imaginary friends? Like your imaginary girl friends? You "brag" about dating only Asians yet think I"m the wannabe? You're a wonton king my pathetic little troll....

Since you can't speak Chinese, I can only imagine what Chinese women say to your face when you have no idea

[lkfmdc]

Ou Ji, the big man says hi...... :D

[hskwarrior]

ou ji,

i appreciate ur honesty. this isn't an argument, but you don't know me at all to say im trying to make people like me. Thats a empty comment. There are only a couple of people i like here, but in no way do i try to impress people or make them like me. if i did i'd stay away from open arguments like this.

so in that case i'd disagree w/ you.

but i agree, i've droppewd my guard and shown my ass & should avoid conflicts like this, its seneless.

im done, and yes nothing was proven here.

[hskwarrior]

would u like to read my pm's?

[lkfmdc]

Got to love troll boy, one minute Ou Ji is close to him, the next he doesn't know him to well....

Like I said, BRAIN DAMAGE....

[hskwarrior]

who the hell bragged?

its you who said i've never dated any asian, fool.

but wait, aren't you divorced from this asian person you married? what happened she was tired of lop cheung and wanted sicilian sausage?

[hskwarrior]

stupid ass,

he knows what i mean and you don't. i love the fact that you are so stupid to think that i ever reveal myself 100% and if he likes to he can also tell u how wrong u are right now.

so u think u know what i meant by being closer to me,huh?


LOL!---FOOL

[Ou Ji]

Admittedly, my comments are based on very limited exposure to both of you but then everyone else here is seeing that same slice. But not everyone is inclined to say what they see.

And believe me I mean it as constructive criticism.

Hey, it's your life. I just live in it.

Zai jian.

[hskwarrior]

i wont take it personal much like i brush it off my shoulders when he calls me fat.

[lkfmdc]

If you figure out how to type a coherent sentence, maybe your comments would have some meaning to the real world...

Like I said, you shows signs of brain damage.

Imaginary friends and all, I'm sure you a mega-fist are the best of friends :rolleyes:

Like I said, I was there in San Francisco, where were you then?

You're the one talking crap and afraid to back it up... massive insecurity, but what can we expect from the likes of you?

Ou Ji, I"m sorry if my accomplishements bother you, I am who I am, had lots of good teachers and experiences, have indeed seen and been in places many have not. I do know more than some. I don't believe in the feel good BS of not correcting people and lettting them spew crap just so they don't feel bad about themselves when you correct them. Being correct isn't bragging, it is just being correct, even if you dont' like the answer (for example, Shaolin being the home of criminals)

[hskwarrior]

what accomplishments? who the f are you? what have you done? How come i have never heard your name before. even up until now?

imaginary friends? it must leave you shaking in your boots with anger that i won't tell you who i know. See, if i told you im good friends with the beasty boys dj, you would think im bragging.

you drop names arond here as if by doing so we should all bow down. you act like you are americas number 1 coach. who and what on earth makes you so correct that you can correct anyone?

you asked me where i was in san francisco, i've been raised here all my life in the mission district. where were you?

so i see you think you can take me or something. why do you even think i would take the time to fight you? if you knew the rap group EPMD there's a lyric in one of their songs where it goes...." don't step too close........." or what?

and in regards to my forum writing, this is like a piece of scratch paper to me i will write miswrite and misspell anything i wish and you can shut the f up about it. how ya like dat?

and criminals in whose eyes? the governments? or shaolin? Did the people find these people as criminals as well scholar?

you make me laugh so **** much when you pop off at the gums like that. "correct" this and "correct that", if you could see me dude i would tell you to correct this!
"

[hskwarrior]

i know this little biatch gets his kicks sitting back on his computer talking all the sheet he wants.

he wants to act like a biatch he'll get treated like one.

[Ou Ji]

Ou Ji, I"m sorry if my accomplishements bother you,

Straw man. Never said your accomplishments bothered me but I can see where it's much easier to redirect to something you can defend instead of what I actually said.

I agree with a lot of what you say, I just don't like how you say it. You have a way of inferring (and sometimes outright saying which isn't always a bad thing) stupidity in everyone but yourself. There are better ways off offering the truth.

When you aren't outright insulting others your choice of words makes others feel insulted. You would have many more friends if you didn't look down on everyone.

Your approach, IMO, is confrontational.

But you could ignore all this because I'm sure you don't care. YOU like yourself and that's probably all that matters to YOU.

Have a nice life. You too Frank.
:p

[lkfmdc]

what accomplishments? who the f are you?



You have so much brain damage that not only did you jump into this not knowing who I am, even after I posted who I am, you still can't grasp it





what have you done?



Other than what I've already posted? IE other than being the adopted disciple of Chan Tai San, the youngest person (Chinese or White) to be asked to perform at the NACMAF national masters' demonstration, a key figure in my lineage, the person who has written more on my tradition than anyone in the western world, the trainer of world and national champions, one of the few non-Chinese who has been accepted into many important TCMA organizations, the only white guy who hung around with Pak Hok Pai and Hop Ga in San Francisco, the guy drinking beer with Chan Poi at the bar,,,, I could go on




How come i have never heard your name before. even up until now?



Because you are a mentally deficient loser who doesn't know what he thinks he knows, because you aren't the important person you've tried to convince yourself you are....




imaginary friends? it must leave you shaking in your boots with anger that i won't tell you who i know.


I couldn't care less what fantasy world you live in, with your girlfriend Rosey Palm and her five sisters.





you drop names arond here as if by doing so we should all bow down.


I don't drop names, I point out facts. When you make your ridiculous claims I challenge them, and you can't respond.

I'm sorry to have had to burst your bubble, but in my world you are NO ONE, you are insignificant. Not only do my lineages make you seem pathetic, so do my friends. YOu wanted to compare level of acceptance in the Mo LUm.... Clearly, I run with the big boys, while you play around in the kiddie pool




you act like you are americas number 1 coach. who and what on earth makes you so correct that you can correct anyone?



Compared to you, I am the lord almighty. I've trained 3 world champions and over 18 national champions. My students compete, win and hold titles in boxing, kickboxing, San Da, Lei Tai, Muay Thai, grappling and MMA....

I have over 250 active students right now.

What are your credentials?




you asked me where i was in san francisco, i've been raised here all my life in the mission district. where were you?



Every year I went to Tat Mau Wong's event as an honored guest, had my expenses paid, dinners bought for me, etc... I performed in the masters demonstrations.

Where were you? If you're such a "big name" over in SF's Chinatown, how come I've never heard of you, never seen you? To me, you're Jonny come lately, way lately...

In the 1990's I spent every summer in SF's Chinatown, training with a lot of respected TCMA people. Where were you? Why haven't I ever heard of you?




why do you even think i would take the time to fight you?



Here come the excuses, ****, you're currently across the country and can't even keep up the hard talk on the keyboard big man :rolleyes:





how ya like dat?



I find you increasingly amusing, probably due to pics like this one
http://www.hlk.zoomshare.com/album/our%20album/images/ee93d831d4e8808b0886d85b18dd0667_11317480910/image.jpg

The only thing I'm afraid of is that you might fall on top of me

[lkfmdc]

I just don't like how you say it. You have a way of inferring (and sometimes outright saying which isn't always a bad thing) stupidity in everyone but yourself.



Like I said, I say people are wrong when they are. I am not concerned with how they'll feel when I correct them.

If I'm not "outright" saying it, it's really upon the reader, IE it's projection. Why do you think I'm saying you're stupid? If I want to say you're stupid, I'm more than capable of doing it (see my response to "warrior" sorry, I'll stop laughing in a minute)......

People have sensitive little feelings and get hurt to easily, grow a thick skin, this is martial arts, not flower arranging....

And the lord almighty says hi

[hskwarrior]

no prob bob!

keep ya head up and all that good stuff.

Don't let the door hit ya on the butt on the way out. :rolleyes: Just kidding man.

The Japan shots, with the flag are real nice there Ou Ji. Im going to mention the Japan school in another post, pm me if you think thats a no go.

hsk-frank

[lkfmdc]

Let's not let you try and duck these issues




what accomplishments? who the f are you?



You have so much brain damage that not only did you jump into this not knowing who I am, even after I posted who I am, you still can't grasp it





what have you done?



Other than what I've already posted? IE other than being the adopted disciple of Chan Tai San, the youngest person (Chinese or White) to be asked to perform at the NACMAF national masters' demonstration, a key figure in my lineage, the person who has written more on my tradition than anyone in the western world, the trainer of world and national champions, one of the few non-Chinese who has been accepted into many important TCMA organizations, the only white guy who hung around with Pak Hok Pai and Hop Ga in San Francisco, the guy drinking beer with Chan Poi at the bar,,,, I could go on




How come i have never heard your name before. even up until now?



Because you are a mentally deficient loser who doesn't know what he thinks he knows, because you aren't the important person you've tried to convince yourself you are....




imaginary friends? it must leave you shaking in your boots with anger that i won't tell you who i know.


I couldn't care less what fantasy world you live in, with your girlfriend Rosey Palm and her five sisters.





you drop names arond here as if by doing so we should all bow down.


I don't drop names, I point out facts. When you make your ridiculous claims I challenge them, and you can't respond.

I'm sorry to have had to burst your bubble, but in my world you are NO ONE, you are insignificant. Not only do my lineages make you seem pathetic, so do my friends. YOu wanted to compare level of acceptance in the Mo LUm.... Clearly, I run with the big boys, while you play around in the kiddie pool




you act like you are americas number 1 coach. who and what on earth makes you so correct that you can correct anyone?



Compared to you, I am the lord almighty. I've trained 3 world champions and over 18 national champions. My students compete, win and hold titles in boxing, kickboxing, San Da, Lei Tai, Muay Thai, grappling and MMA....

I have over 250 active students right now.

What are your credentials?




you asked me where i was in san francisco, i've been raised here all my life in the mission district. where were you?



Every year I went to Tat Mau Wong's event as an honored guest, had my expenses paid, dinners bought for me, etc... I performed in the masters demonstrations.

Where were you? If you're such a "big name" over in SF's Chinatown, how come I've never heard of you, never seen you? To me, you're Jonny come lately, way lately...

In the 1990's I spent every summer in SF's Chinatown, training with a lot of respected TCMA people. Where were you? Why haven't I ever heard of you?




why do you even think i would take the time to fight you?



Here come the excuses, ****, you're currently across the country and can't even keep up the hard talk on the keyboard big man :rolleyes:





how ya like dat?



I find you increasingly amusing, probably due to pics like this one
http://www.hlk.zoomshare.com/album/our%20album/images/ee93d831d4e8808b0886d85b18dd0667_11317480910/image.jpg

The only thing I'm afraid of is that you might fall on top of me

[hskwarrior]

yeah he's got tough skin. Just take a look at his head, the hair can't protrude his skull skin.

but once again, he skirts the issue of who the hell are you to tell people they are wrong when it is only your point of view? who made you the one to tell anyone you are wrong?

but i know you are from the east coast and this is how yuze guyz tok out dere!
so i won't let his imbacilic rantings about who he is and who he knows and what he's accomplished. its my guess he was an only child.

if i were too um yeah take that and um what time is the clouds are rolling your mother called take that back. ok!

[Ou Ji]

lkfmdc
Whatever dude. Just having an opinion and speaking my mind. That's how I read most of your posts and I doubt I'm the only one.

Tough skin? No prob for me. Grew up in your part of the country. Thick skin is mandatory.

hskwarrior
And the significance of Japan is what? Don't see you winning any arguments posting that pic. You know I prefer to keep the name Ou Ji anonymous but I'll give it up before bowing to blackmail if that's what you mean. If not then leave it out if it doesn't have significance.

So how does one get out of this mess (now that I've embroiled myself in it)? :D

Wow, just spoke to God and he doesn't seem to know you lkfmdc. :D

[lkfmdc]

but once again, he skirts the issue of who the hell are you to tell people they are wrong



Like I said, you are brain damaged, because you still can't figure it out.

I have higher, much higher, lineage than you in Choy Lay Fut. I've done it longer. I've done TCMA longer. I am considered an equal by very reputable and respected masters. IE I've been around longer, seen more, done more.

Needless to say, I'm also more educated than you are, but that isn't even a stretch.

I've been teaching longer, and I have a proven record of producing better students. Like I said, you really don't want to compare students.

I laughed my arse off when you tried to call me a commercial school, that's a code word for your school has no students, no one cares about you and you're pizzed I'm making mad bucks doing what I love...

I know you can't grasp this, but I'm a lot more than "east coast". My master was from China, direct. I've studied also in SF's Chinatown. I've traveled the world studying martial arts....

In other words, no matter what you think you're trying to prove, you're gonna fail

Do not bring family members, especially mothers, into this discussion. I know you don't want me to go there.... this is your last warning

[lkfmdc]

Ou Ji, you're probably talking to the wrong one, there are more than one you know :D

As far as I'm concerned, you aren't embroiled in anything, I answered you but don't really care what you posted

[hskwarrior]

you are a joke that must live a very lonely private life. is that why your chinese wife divorced you? she couldn't handle your attitude and telling her how to be and act chinese? im sure any chinese woman would have dropped your ass in a heart beat.

i've never heard of you and if you check my site the pictues of me with Ming Lum the China town godfather you will see that the pictures were taken at Tat Mau Wong's tournaments. as i've said....FOOL.

I was just abouit to drop to his level and do some name dropping myself, but erased it because i figured no one can beat this stumpy little troll looking extra from Lord of the Rings, he is so extremely self dillusioned. His head can get cut off and he wouldn't even know it because "No one could do that to david ross (who) david ross (who the hell is that) who knows and who cares? who does? of course, he does. he loves himself, and acts like he is the only white guy to crack the chinese barrier. ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaa.

my school is way older than his and i've been around this more than half my life, and this no body come around here acting like we need to recognize him for something. you know the guy who always brags like the way he does really does have nothing to brag about.

if you really knew the chinese culture then you would know the chinese don't brag, they let their students do it and their actions for them. but here you are trying to make us believe the bs you're dropping.

if you are as good as you say you are then shut the **** up and let your repuatation do all the talking. don't your jaws ever get tired. oh, that's right, you're a new yorker.


hahahahahahahaha

[Ou Ji]

I answered you but don't really care what you posted

My point exactly. Apparently us Kung Fu peons are so beneath you. Not too arrogant.

Cheers.

[lkfmdc]

I have tons of pics with Ming Lum, he is a friend of my sifu's and took us all out for dinner when we were there. Again, you lose... you must be used to that by now.

If you were at Tat Mau's you must have paid to come as a spectator, I would have remembered your fat ass if you had tried to demonstrate.

Now, why do you bring up wives? Because you are a lonely loser who probably has to pay to get some??

People who know me know my first wife was drop dead beauty, and my second wife is BETTER looking...

Let's get personal Frank. Were you lonely as a kid? You asked if I was a single child, but at least I had parents. You didn't did you?

Is the fact you had no mom your excuse for being so insecure and pathetic?

Perhaps she had a "problem" and you were born a little slow? How exactly did she pass away?

[lkfmdc]

My point exactly. Apparently us Kung Fu peons are so beneath you. Not too arrogant.

Cheers.

Or, I answered you because it was the polite thing to do but I don't care or am not angry at what you posted. IE I couldn't care less. Man, you are way projecting....

[hskwarrior]

wait, wait, wait, a minute.

you are from a lineage that has a monk that no one has ever heard of.

Hung SIng people do not count chan heung as the first so counting from him i am a 5th genenration disciple reaching to fut san in 3 hung sing lineages.

No one but the CTS group has heard of this monk you claim.

And i will put my choy lee fut up to yours anyday. you really are tripping now.

you can't prove this monk ever existed.

how much choy lee fut do you have? how long? are you sure you were learning choy lee fut?

your scholarly education could never stand up to my phd in the school of hard knocks. busta! i don't care how educated you are. you are still a peon to me.

let me warn you you won't warn me for sheet. what are you going to do? come to sf? ooooohhhhhh you have me scared.

Hung Sing Kwoon has never been a commercial school and never will. that why our school is over 80 yrsold and still going strong. long after your silly ass closes down for whatever your reasons may be, the hung sing kwoon will long out last your school in a million years. you are not the only one who has produced champions. you arrogant little no dik having thats why your wife left you muther ****er.

[hskwarrior]

oh i didn't push a button did i?

what happened to your tough east coast skin?

boy you can dish it out but you can't take ****.


now what:D

[hskwarrior]

ou ji

you silly muther ****er. i was actually trying to help promote a new affiliate school in japan and i mentioned it to you because you are in the picture. it wasn't an attack or blackmail, i informed you that i was going to do it just to inform you in case you had a problem with it. i already spoke to MY sifu, and he ok'd it.


you are completely off for that one and look who's talking now about having tough skin.

you are wrong as fock to think i have anything to blackmail you on. for that one you lost major points with me.


i'll post up the link anyway out of spite. that was ****ed up dude, that wasn't my intentions at all *******.

[lkfmdc]

Like I keep saying, you're a moron, because you haven't heard of something you can't fathom what it's significance is

Jyu Chyuhn is famous throughout ALL of Canton province, Michael Parrella just came back from China, EVERYONE knew who he was and his son is also a famous martial artist

You are so clueless, you put up all those lame pictures of yourself and you don't realize how poor your technique is. LIke I said, I could correct all your basic punches because they are all wrong.

You want to cling to an 80 year old school, dude, you aren't Lau Bun... talk about a poser...

But what do we expect from a crack baby? How did your mom pass? Tell us your heart breaking story, you already tried to get sympathy for your supposed paralysis, why not cash in on your mommy?

[hskwarrior]

actually you retarded son of a ***** me and my sifu were invited there are judges, and i also competed a few times.

to you ming lum knew your teacher, to me ming lum is my si bak.

i won't ever lose to you you arrogant peon little dik mother f'er

[lkfmdc]

YOu won't lose because you don't have the balls to face me, they probably dropped off from lack of circulation, all that fat...

We're still curious about mommy and her addiction, so share with us and then maybe we'll feel sorry for you...

You made it personal.... hey, are you married? Ever gotten close??

You are the poster boy for that saying "a mind is a terrible thing to waste"

You're uneducated, and proud to be so! You live in your own little fantasy land...

[lkfmdc]

Do you really think I'd be scared of you
One more time
http://www.hlk.zoomshare.com/album/General%20Applications/images/10087035f281ab3b8bb3886d0b196870_11321655640/image.jpg

That one shows that dull look behind your eyes, autism maybe?

You said your last girlfriend went back to Asia? Did she run away after seeing you naked?

[Ou Ji]

This was fun for a short time but I'm over it now. You guys hold the fort while I go work on my projection skillz. :D

Actually Frank, if you didn't mention I was in the picture it wouldn't have been a problem. Unfortunately now everyone reading knows I'm one of the three in the picture.

Ah, who cares. Post away. It's not like I'm somebody, like lkfmdc, or anything.

BTW, still can't figure out the mdc part of lkfmdc.

[hskwarrior]

he's not known in choy lee fut.

and to inform you, im more mentally tougher than you could ever wish to be, wannabe.


to answer you, my mother died at the age of 35 from Pneumonia and cancer. and you could say what ever you want about my mother. it won't bother me because i know i pushed your buttons.

why did your wife leave you? Lack of *****? Lack of stamina? did you find her in bed with a black guy or something? or were you to bossy to be married to a chinese woman? you know you 2 minute dudes need some help.



you're a grown man, supposedly a teacher, and all you can do is resort to momma jokes? and you call me the loser? go figure.

you still need a hair piece.

[hskwarrior]

ou ji,


thats why i told you i liked the japan pictures and never said you were in them until you accused me of blackmail. thats foul as fock.

now i don't care if i tell the whole forum your real name and show them your photo.

[hskwarrior]

if only you knew.

nah, you're not supposed to be afraid of a picture that demonstrates the proper placement of the Hung Sing Kwoon's type of Kwa Choy. it was for my students not in sf to see and reflect where to drop the knuckles.

it wasn't an action shot, so whats the problem? all of them are shot the same way. i have nothing to feel ashamed about.

you wouldn't want me to hit you with MY sow choy, though i'll take your head off.


hey, but keep posting up my photo's for me, i never knew how to do that. the more publicity you give me the better loser girl.

keep putting up more photo's for them to see.

oh, and just so you know, that was the Kwa in a series of "Kwa Sow Chop"
but remember its just a picture and i know YOU mrs davna ross cannot do any better.

just so you know, im not really impressed with your website, or the techniques you try to foul your students up with. oh my god!

[Ou Ji]

Ok, I admit it. I'm defensive. Got picked on and beat up as a kid so I jump to conclusion quickly at times. At least I admit it.

You linked me to the Japan picture and that was enough. Maybe asking in a PM would have been the better choice. Asking during a heated discussion had ominous underpinnings in my mind.

Go for it. I'm not real comfortable hiding behind a name anyhow. I'm used to standing up, as me, and speaking my mind.

I thought a few would figure it out because of the Japan trip anyhow.

[hskwarrior]

oh so you think that you can tell the look in my eyes while i'm sideways?

or by the simple fact that all it was was a techincal photo of the placement of a kwa choy.

you are a pure loser. look at your stupid ass looks on your photo's. you are so arrogant that one of the photo's shows your stupid ass looking right into the camera with a "What" look on your face.


Loser

[hskwarrior]

my sifu said it was cool and maybe i shouldn't have told you in the heat of this moron's bs.

i'll keep it cool and not show it for now.

[hskwarrior]

and actually,

my girl from indonesia (bandung to be exact) went back home because her father is dying of cancer and she will not leave her father and if he dies she won't leave her mother alone either.

thanks for asking.

and i was her first-----yes a 26year old virgin----and she loved every hour of it.

[hskwarrior]

what did i tell you.

anything my name is on will shoot the ratings to the roof. it started for me around the 400'
s now its over 600.


**** im good.

[Scott R. Brown]

Dave and Frank,

I respect you two have the right to rag on each other. I understand it can be quite fun, but how about taking it to a new thread called: “Dave & Frank Ragging on Each Other”.

This thread was meant to be for discussing ethics in the MA and ironically you to are setting a very good BAD example!

From the number of views your spat is apparently very entertaining so how about taking it elsewhere please and entertain yourselves and your fans on your own thread!

[Sekabin]

I can't believe I just read through all that :eek:

Ok chaps, shall we try to get back on topic now? Although to be fair I think the question had sort of been answered before the online battle. Clearly some people feel comfortable with written sets of 'moral codes', and some don't.

Let me throw something else into the mix. We might practice TCMA, but that's not to say that we, or our teachers are living in medieval times. You might have a Chinese teacher, who happens to be Christian, or moslem, or a newer version of Buddhism. It's pretty likely that some of this would slip into their teaching, whether they tried to avoid it or not.

Personally I've never gone in for written codes etc - I can't see the point; I do think that a lot of that came from the commercialisation of Japanese/Korean MA and isn't strictly Chinese. But informal morality will be passed on by a teacher anyway - just as spending time with anyone in authority will pass on exterior things to the central knowledge.

[Eddie]

its all about balance. if you want to find moral teachings within your style, then you will probaly find it, in the same way those fundamentalist will find satan behind every rock album. spirituality goes much further than the moral issue in any case.

Im with sifu ross on this one, I also think that there are way to many stories out there about these benevolent monks where allot of them were just that, killers, criminals and generally bad people.

morality is also debatable. your set of moral codes may not be the same as mine. I look at some things that are acceptable in some cultures (specially down in africa) which will most certainly not be acceptable in others.

one dont need to give up your life to be a martial artist.

on a side note, its amazing to see how many martial arts players you will find within various " alternitive" subcultures. People who do not subscribe to your everyday codes of ethics and morals.

btw- nice website sifu ross.
and Frank, I do understand what you are saying too. agree to allot of it too.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Whew!!! i'm glad that little spat is settling down.. it is truly sad that folks feel the need to air their issues publicly.. that's what PMs are for..

Moral codes may be as simple as "don't embarass your Sifu" or as complex as Confucian wisdoms.. we exist in a complex world full of moral codes, ethics and common courtesy guidelines.. some are codified into laws, some are enforced by social responses.. to train students in the use of violence without guidelines seems irresponsible.. to link it to religious dogmas seems equally irresponsible..

Presenting MA training with lessons linked to the political, social and religio-philosophical environment present during its evolution seems appropriate.. it is a lesson regarding historical events and the influence of that history on the development of a particular Art.. That is not to say that a student should adopt those beliefs, only be aware of the influence.. The student should be guided in common-sense and respect, generic, of course.. Philosophical or religious lessons that are offered can be set aside for those interested, not as a "paid-for MA lesson".. Alternatively, it can also be an integral part of any school's curriculum, IF it is clear up-front.. some students prefer that sort of environment.. and, there's nothing inherently wrong with it IF it's clear up-front.. then, it's the student's choice..

CMA, in fact all MA, has the opportunity to influence society in a positive way.. to introduce MA as a viable alternative to pure refined violence.. to guide younger students and to offer options for those that may have developed poor understandings of social interactions.. History is littered with "Warrior-class Codes" such as the Samurai, Medeival Knights, and numerous Chinese Temple spawned MAs.. these codes may have been internal to the system or socially sanctioned, but they were present at almost every level.. i would be interested to learn of systems that had absolutely no code of conduct, that would be chaos.. and, as we can see from previous pages.. a simple request to stay on topic cannot long endure the egos of man, a code will not cure the ills of man.. but, it is a target that, if we enforce an aspiration to hit, will improve our general appearance.. Parents do not often send their children to learn pure violence, they expect discipline and an improved outlook on life.. neither of which will manifest without codes and enforcement.. there is personal discipline, group discipline and social discipline, a code of conduct and responsibility is the difference between informal chaos and a disciplined learning environment..

Be well...

[TenTigers]

I have seen alot of student codes, creeds, etc, ranging from touchy feely BoyScout mottos, to Warrior codes of conduct. There are still schools that demand fierce loyalty and state this in their codes.
In my school, we use the traditional,
"Hok Yuen, Hok Yee, Hok Gung-Fu, Juen Jo, Juen Si, Juen Gow Do"-basically meaning, "Learn Loyalty, Learn Humility, Learn Gung-Fu, Respect Ancestors, Respect Sifu , Respect the traditions> These are always discussed with the kids and teens, giving examples for each. Rarely with the adults, but the meaning behind passing down the art intact, and in doing so, honoring your self, your Sifu, and your ancestors is always stressed. In modern day, it boils down to quality control, and not settling for mediocrity in Gung-Fu, your self, and in your life.
The important thing, IF you are going to have a code, or creed is to make sure that they are not simply words to be recited by rote. I always tell my students, "Don't leave your Gung-Fu(or creed) at the door" "Don't visit it two to three times a week. Take it home with you" If these are simply words that only apply while they are inside the Mo-Gwoon, then they are just that-words. What is your reason for having them? Is it for you, for the parents, or for the students?
There are two questions-Do you have a code? and, Why?

[hskwarrior]

i publicly apologize for my actions yesterday.

I acted foolishly and got caught up in the drama of one man's whatever.

There is no point regardless of who thinks who's winning in continuing this.

lets get on to bigger and better things.


Frank

[hskwarrior]

tentigers,

The club creed that my sifu and i use are as follows:

1) I will honor and obey my sifu


2) I will respect my fellow classmates

3) I will not intentionally bring dishonor or negative attention to my school nor to my Sifu.

4) I will not bully anyone weaker or misuse my gung fu in anyway.

5) I will protect those who cannot protect themselves

6) Train Hard

7) Eat healthy

8) Do not misuse drugs or alcohol

9) obey the laws of the land.

10) My main purpose for learning martial arts is to build a strong mind, body and spirit, and to protect myself from harm.

these are the 10 rules of our school.

i feel they describe the important aspects of the teacher student relationship in a small way.

hsk

[TenTigers]

as we say in Noo Yawk, fuhggetaboutit!
This will always happen from time to time. I think what we have is a syndrome that occurs with Gwailos like us,(I include you , David, as well as myself, and others) who, have paid their dues and trained in real systems, under real Sifus, and are fiercely loyal to Gung-Fu, so much in fact that in many cases we seem to care more about it than some Chinese. Sometimes, we end up being"More Chinese than the Chinese", Now, I really don't think any of us walk around in cheong salms,or eat our popcorn with chopsticks, that is an extreme, usually seen in people with psychological disorders. (These people usually get attracted to my school, for some reason) I think it is due to two reasons:
one, simply our love for the art and our dedication, leads us to being exposed to more of the culture, the language, the food, etc and fuels a desire to learn more.
There are many people who will not venture into Chinatown.
two-when we see those who have polluted,and made their styles a mockery of traditional Chinese Martial Arts, it only fuels the fire.
three-on top of this, there are many Chinese kids who have absolutely no desire to learn Gung-Fu, or their own culture for that matter. They are more interested in computer games, or being Chiggas. I know this, only because I used to teach at a Chinese School,and witness this first hand.
Hey, do you know there are also lots of Chinese kids taking TKD and going to Tiger Shullman's? aaarrrgggh!

[hskwarrior]

my take on the situation is its ok to possess the knowledge, skills, culture, and such. but its when we lose ourselves in the chinese culture that i have a problem.

i'll tell a story without naming names. When we went to China it was my sifu, me, this black cat, and another caucasian guy. We went to a restaurant in Qing Yuen and sat at the table. The waitress comes over and starts placing silverware down on the tavble. To all the Chinese she gave Chop Sticks. When she got to me she looked me over-saw my tattoos- and realized im no square to this and gave me chop sticks.

But, when she got to the other Caucasian and the Black dude, she gave them fork and knives. the caucausian seeing that i got chop sticks and got upset that he got silverware instead. He started pounding on his chest exclaiming "I'm Chinese, I'm Chinese" and got all upset.

I couldn't believe my eyes. This Caucasian dude got so caught up in chinese culture and wanted them to like him he threw away his old identity to pick up and live in china.

My point is absorb the culture, respect it, love it, even cherish it. But don't lose yourself identity over it. I have been accepted into SF's chinatown because i don't fake the funk. I am who I am and was only accepted because they watched me grow-from the age of 14 to 37 now- in the Hung Sing School.

peace.

[lkfmdc]

On "morality" in TCMA, like I've said, mostly a new invention to be politically correct and because people don't want the real stories to get out.

Read the Chan Tai San stories thread... Tai Yim nearly died when Sifu Chan told the story about "white haired devil" in public, but of course it was 100% true.

Famous fighter had 10 schools in mainland, picked up one day and suddenly moved to Hong Kong... he didn't "suddenly" pick up and leave, he got in trouble with the law. A challenger came in and he killed the guy.

Anyone who has done TCMA in a major Chinese community knows that every TCMA school has affiliations with various organizations in the community, many border line.

I can name three major systems that you can't learn unless you are part of certain organizations.

More reality, Chinese are factionalized, Catonese vs Shanghai vs Taiwan, etc... then they have sub factions, among the Cantonese you have the Toi San, you have the Chung San, etc.... then you have personal BS... can't tell you how many times I've heard them bad mouth some guy, a little into the story the fact they owe some money, or got a job the other guy wanted, etc played into it...

More reality, most here would probably be SHOCKED to hear the conversations masters have with their contemporaries about the schools they run, their students and what they teach them...

These conversations of course don't take place in English so most never know.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


More reality, most here would probably be SHOCKED to hear the conversations masters have with their contemporaries about the schools they run, their students and what they teach them...
lkfmdc: fortunately or unfortunately, depending on the perspective, i got far enough inside to be privy to some of the conversations you speak of.. and, yes.. i was shocked.. and moreso would some others be.. But, the nature of the revelation was to insure me that a few of us were getting at least some of the real thing.. it mostly began with "Americans have no foundation to really uinderstand the true art".. a memorable conversation was translated for me between Chan Pui, Lee Koon Hung and Wai Hong Eng.. imagine that one!

I do challenge the notion that morals and ethics are a "new invention to be politically correct", there may be more emphasis on it lately, but.. it has always been there is some form.. i think it is equally romanticising the issue to insist on purely combative skills development with no moral, ethical or philosophical influence as fundamental CMA..

As an evolutionary trend in MA it has merit. why not accept some responsibility in the social wellfare, why not add value to MA aside from purely violent techniques for survival.. there are other aspects of "self-defense" that are present in certain morals, ethics and philosophies..

Be well..

[lkfmdc]

Despite what some people may think, being able to speak Chinese does have an obvious inpact on how Chinese teachers treat you. Add to that if you are an "in the door" of a famous master and you hear things that most wouldn't...

Bob, I've heard things well beyond the need to simplify because we don't have a base. I've heard stuff about as long as one or two get it, who cares about the rest. I was introduced to the concept of "rice bags" do you know that one?

I've heard and seen made up sets, changed techniques, changed applications, changed footwork...

To quote a well known master whose name I won't reveal "you and I know that is wrong, but they (his students) will never know"...

Drinking with Chan Poi, Wai Hong and the "gang" were always interesting experiences...

Most of what people here think of as morality has nothing to do with TCMA, it has to do with being Chinese and growing up in China, cultural and historical trends like Confucianism... and often, in practice these things aren't exactly the most moral...

Sifu is right, he's always right, even when he's wrong, even when he's unreasonable, event when he's crazy and acting like a tool...

A whle back, people here were agasp when I said that Chan Tai San had beaten some students to death back in good old China... it was SOP back in China though and no old school Chinese sifu would blink at that story...

Those involved in TCMA back in China weren't always to top class. Some of my sifu's lectures included "according to the rules of the underground"... yeah, he had rules, few would call those rules "moral" in the Western sense

If you've really been around this stuff, you start to realize that everyday Chinese don't associate martial arts with heros, they associate it with undesireable....

People freak out when I talk about this stuff in public, some deny it even when they know it's true because they don't want the public to know this stuff...

You point out that there were murderers and rapists in the temples and people lose their minds...

But, perhaps sadly, it is all true...

[yutyeesam]

I do challenge the notion that morals and ethics are a "new invention to be politically correct", there may be more emphasis on it lately, but.. it has always been there is some form.. i think it is equally romanticising the issue to insist on purely combative skills development with no moral, ethical or philosophical influence as fundamental CMA..



Beyond political correctness, it is also a good business strategy, and I think that's where this is taken to a new level. A significant amount of the martial arts industry is catered towards children, which means, their parents. When you really sell the fact that martial arts training is about teaching discipline, focus, respect, etc., the parents' become very willing to enroll their kids in a 1 year contract of $100/mo for 2-3 days a week of classes.

-123

[Ou Ji]

TCB, wasn't Lee Kwan Shan basically a mercenary? Hired out to fight and kill?

Of course the nice way of saying it is he was an escort hired to protect.

And he hid out in the Wah Lum Temple because friends of the guys he killed were after him. Was that typical back then?

And a few other things I "heard" but will not say on a public forum. :)

Even the criminal underground has rules so why not the CMA community.

[lkfmdc]

Ou Ji,

I'm sorry, can you say that again :)

You must be mistaken, TCMA masters didn't fight, much less kill! They sat around all day practicing their caligraphy and contemplating the nature of the Tao :rolleyes:

Read even some of Smith's stuff about Taiwan in the 50's! Sword fights in the streets!!!

[hskwarrior]

im not here to argue the point because it actually has me interested to know the truth.

I wondering if Mr Ross would politely inform where he gets the notion that the shaolin temple housed serial murderers and rapists? Did he learn that in his college courses, or did his sifu tel him that?

i've read a few things in the past about the shaolin temple, and i've never heard things like that coming from Shaolin itself.

Im interested because i would like to research that idea a little further.

If his professor's at college taught him that i'd wonder where their info came from. if its the government then i wouldn't hold too much weight on that. But if the info came directly from the source claiming they would house murderers, rapists, child killers and such.

and if this information is available where is it?

i want to read up more on this.

[hskwarrior]

are we getting confused with paid duties as opposed to just plain killing out of the love for it?

China was a very strange place, and often very dangerous. I remember seeing a documentary about southern china during the ching dynasty where the southerners were so far away from the capitol city that they had no real police, or government, and were so poverty stricken that if a stranger happened to pass through their village he would be taken and killed. Cut up into little pieces and sold as human pork buns.

what im saying is that they killed at times for survival, and i can see shaolin taking them in. Just knowing how they ran things, i just thought it possible that shaolin would not want to take in murderers into the temple that may run around the temple killing monks like it was a buffett. thats what a real killer would do. the temple would be a playground for these killers.

so im just wondering where i can find some factual info about shaolin taking in murderers and rapists, and all the dirty lowlife scum of the earth.


hsk

[lkfmdc]

What I've pointed out many times in the past is that what common Americans consider controversial, isn't at all!

Not only is the history of China full of information on the practice of shaving your head and going into a monastery to escape criminal prosecution, the Chinese know this and all talk about it as well...

IE anyone who spent more than a year in a graduate program reading bao jia records, imperial decrees or local reports has read HUNDREDS of times about people escaping prosecution by entering a monastery...

Furthermore, the Chinese aren't hiding any of this....

Hung Kuen has a famous technique called "Mai Tin Jaahng Faat".... of course, you have to know Chinese to understand this

It means "sell the field to get free technique"

It means, if you use this, be prepared to sell your field, because you are going to kill somone, and you'll have to pay off the family ....

This isn't a secret, it isn't even controversial...

The lengths to which the American martial arts community wants to surpress this sort of stuff is a joke.

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=476

READ IT, some of you have in the past. The George Washington Historical Journal ran this piece when I was a graduate student there... ie it met academic standards, rigorous academic standards... but the TCMA press wanted nothing to do with it, because it might "ruffle some feathers"

Don't wallow in ignorance, READ a book!

Want to know about martial artists and their relationship to Chinese society for REAL, not some politically correct clap trap...

The Taiping Rebellion by Franz Michael

The Shanghai Green Gang by Brian Martin

Secret Societies Reconsidered by David OWnby (editor)

The Origins of the Boxer Uprising by Joseph Esherick

I could list over 50 of them,,,,

[hskwarrior]

if i may ask was Chan Tai San involved with any tongs when he was alive?

i completely understand what you are talking about chirs.
I know you guys have heard of the Hop Gar master harry ng that was shot and killed. As a gwai lo i shouldn't know this because the chinese are so secretive but i was even introduced to the guy that shot harry ng (who's out of jail now) i just won't say his name.

You are right to take the stand of "i'll get it when you think i'm ready" thats something i always do.

anyways, i totally agree with you.

hsk

[lkfmdc]

Read the Chan Tai San stories thread.... Sifu Chan was so deep into that crap that when he joined the army, they had him coordinating military actions with alll the local secret societies.... then he was responsible for telling all them they had to convert to communism and join the party...

Imagine if your job was to walk into the local Mafia hang out, announce to all present that you represent the FBI, and they had better turn themselves in or face the consequences??

That is what Chan Tai San did... and he lived to a nice old age...

[lkfmdc]

Chan Tai San is also possibly the only person to ever **** off "uncle Benny" and live to tell the story, and laugh about it..

One day on Pell, uncle Benny actually stood there, in front of his office, screaming in Cantonese, "I want someone to kill Chan Tai San, I'll pay anyone who kills Chan Tai San (I think it was $1000, back then good money)".... Chan Tai San laughed and walked away, no one took uncle Benny up on the offer either...

[Ou Ji]

Wow, makes me wish I took pictures when I was inside the Hop Sing "office" since it's such a rare honor. :-)

I know, I never would have made it out alive with the photos.

Now all I need is a Sifu who killed people. :p

[lkfmdc]

The advantage of having a sifu who actually killed peopel was that you got the "real stuff"... when Chan tai San said "this is how this works" you knew that it was indeed how it worked...

Pretty much all of the stories we have about Sifu Chan beating the living heck out of people, he DID NOT tell us, others did. Michael just came back from China where, evenn 25 years after he left, they are still talking about Sifu Chan. Most are not pretty

Sifu Chan usually told us the stories about him getting beaten up, usually to convince us a certain technique worked... ie "this one I got hit with and it hurt like this"...

I guess many can't relate, but that was the way it was

[hskwarrior]

oh thats right,

when you guys were here you were let into the top floor to get the lion heads right? that's what usually happens. but when you were there, did you happen to see that big ass painting of DR Sun Yat Sen in military uniform?

The hop Sing Tong is a part of the old Hung Society and Sun Yat Sen's SF Headquarters were right over the 38 Spofford alleys HungSing Kwoon. There's a picture of the old studion on http://www.jewleong.zoomshare.com

I actually had the Balls to take photo's at one of the Gee Tuk Association's private ceremony in front of their alter.

[Ou Ji]

Among my teachers over the years are
an ex Brooklyn street thug that was involved in the drug trade
a national full contact kickboxing champion
an enforcer for a chinatown gang
an ex CIA operative tasked with assasinations in Vietnam
a police officer

I go for the training, not for role models. Truth is the best ones are the ones you really don't want to be associated with in public. Unless that's the image you want. :-)

The only one who's admitted to killing is the CIA guy. Very level headed, a college professor, with some very interesting stories.

Funny but all the people I know who have killed weren't great fighters so you don't need to be a tough guy to take a life.

[lkfmdc]

We're talking about NYC's Hip Sing on Pell Street, though I've been in the SF one as well....

[lkfmdc]

you don't need to be a tough guy to take a life.



Generally speaking, no you don't. But to live in a world of trained fighters and consistently take challenges over say 40 something years does say you probably had some skills.....

[hskwarrior]

so i guess the Lau Bun lineage is very lucky to have the real stuff since he was the first gung fu master of the California Hop Sing tong. He was not only a gambling house and opium den bouncer, but he was a hired Boo How Doi (hatchet man) as well. while In los angeles he killed i think it was 4 immigration officers in a bathroom then jumped out of a 2nd story window landing in a truck bed filled with hay.

But during Professor Lau Buns time in the early 1900's SF was experiencing some major Tong Wars. Prof Lau was heavily involved in all of that. When it came to Prof Lau, everyone showed him respect. When it came to SF chinatown no one could make a move without his permission then.

My Grandmaster Jew Leong was also a member and one time president of the Hop Sing Tong as well. I had heard he was part of a very secret hit squad and was witnessed carrying throwing coins and wearing a steel whip around his waist, typical weapons for Tong assassins.

My Sifu was also a member such organizations and his background is easily verifiable. So i am very proud to be from a lineage of Choy Lee Fut people who teach and learn the real deal stuff.


peace


oh, yes, honestly, nice article Mr Ross, but i did manage to see where it said that shaolin let in these murderers, rapists, and serial killers. I wonder if ther were considered these things only from the governments point of view?

Frank

[hskwarrior]

you're not talking about Hop Tong are you, you mentioned Hip Sing which is a totally different tong.

[lkfmdc]

Technically speaking it is HOP sing tong, many Toi san people pronounce the first character as "hip" so in NYC we often just call it Hip Sing Tong, same group

Chan Tai San was from Toi san and my hing-dai all fall into Toi San speak most of the time

Teut is haut

Sahp is sip

etc....

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

So... now that some people have an inkling of where the fighting "spirit" comes from (fight well or die).. do we have an obligation to evolve beyond that mentality? It's noteworthy as another of the traditional place-holders in a lineage, but.. is it responsible to move that mentality forward? It's a different world today.. while the fighting spirit needs to be equally sharp, a dose of morals and ethics couldn't hurt.. what it was is not what it is now.. i don't see any benefit in preserving the off-handed disregard for life as a principle of CMA..

Anyway, stories of how many people our Masters killed is another thread..

Be well..

[hskwarrior]

technically i believe that they are two different tongs altogether. I think there are hop and hip sing tongs regardless of the toi san-ese.

If you don't mind asking, where was the hop sing tong you went into, and you should know why i ask this, but how did you get in there?


they don't let too many gwal lo's in there. if i wasn't connected to who i am i never would have been able to get inside. regardless of gung fu or not.

i was lucky then let me in one day when i needed to hide from the police. I rang the bell, they looked at me "what you want" and i responded i need to hide from the cops......Ring, the buzzer buzzes me in and then im totally safe until things cooled down. Whew.

[lkfmdc]

is it responsible to move that mentality forward?



Can you move the school out of the bad area and sever your affiliation with "a group of like minded youths organized for a similar cause" :rolleyes:

YES

Can you end the long standing affiliation of what you do with negative things?

YES

Does that mean you have to teach ethics and morality?

NO

I get a group of young, impressionable people in my school, in the old days I could steer them into the little thing I've got going :rolleyes:

I don't want to do that, but neither do I want to teach them about God, Buddha, Allah, the Tao, Winnie the Poh or tigger either ...

My job isn't to teach morality. More like that saying "first, do no harm"... I'm gonna make sure my school doesn't foster bad stuff, but beyond that it isn't my job

It isn't my place to tell them not to smoke, not to eat red meat, who to vote for, what movies to watch, who to make friends with or what to do in the privacy of their home

[hskwarrior]

forgive me TCB, but i feel you come from a pacifist stand point. Yes, on one hand we could do without the sharp edge of the blade while teaching our students, but when a situation arises and all you have is that dull blade.....i'm sorry but something bad might happen, and thats why we train for it not to happen.

out side of the studio you can be as passive as you like. You may never have a confrontation in your life. But inside the studio you train to survive, you focus all your animal energy to sharpen those skills. I think its the warrior that knows he could end your life easily is the one who can live peacefully. all others have to hope they don't become victims.

trust me, even if the world was full of peace loving people, there will still be a few schools laying around that focus and train for the possible.

[hskwarrior]

for once i agree with Mr Ross.:confused:

[lkfmdc]

It was something like 15 years ago so you'll forgive me if I don't remember the exact address.... nor do we need to get into such details really

I was there with my sifu and with one of the White Crane guys...

I've been in plenty of places white people probably never have been...

[hskwarrior]

just remember, you're not the only one bro.


do you remember the name of the White Crane guy you went in with?


peace


p.s. were you going to answer the pm i sent you? just wanted to know. no big deal.

[Ou Ji]

and you should know why i ask this, but how did you get in there?

I had to pee really bad and made a wrong turn. Next thing you know I'm in an upstairs room with a bunch of chinese guys gambling at a card table. :D

[hskwarrior]

ou ji, that was for David Ross. I know how you got in.

[Ou Ji]

I know, just messing. And that post was for the general readership, not you really. :)

[hskwarrior]

okie tanks buh bye!

[lkfmdc]

http://lionsroar.name/david_1.jpg

This is sifu, me, some Hing-Dai with Leung the white crane sifu and his school, oh and Ming Lum also

[lkfmdc]

http://lionsroar.name/david_29.jpg

This is sifu, me, hing dai in the Leung brothers' white crane school, I can be pretty sure we were the first white guys ever there

[Ou Ji]

I've been in plenty of places white people probably never have been...

Ha, me too. But it didn't have anything to do with Kung Fu. :cool:

Back room of the Butterfly Club in Staten Island. Alone, large wad of cash in my pocket.

Past life. Uh, I was there to buy a dozen roses. :D

[lkfmdc]

Ou Ji, are you just a wise arse or do you have an axe to grind? :confused:

If it makes anyone feel any better, I never cared for all the underground crap. I esepcially was not thrilled to get involved in the Vietnamense vs the On Leong thing... that is why I won't open a school anywhere near Chinatown

[hskwarrior]

ah so you have pictures with Leung Kwan and Allen. Ha ha. I know them both and often see Leung Kwan when i go to the Pork Chop House.

Have you ever been to the pork chop house in Chinatown? its real name is the New Leung Ting, but its often referred to as Porkchop house.


hsk

[lkfmdc]

I took a quick look at some of the caligraphy you asked about

http://www.hsclf.zoomshare.com/album/Proferssor%20Lau%20Bun/images/aa6b78a65ff1fc4853f3d40aba0f1896_11357068380/image.jpg




Ironically, it reads the law of the martial community (read it right to left)..

Let's see what else...

[Ou Ji]

I'll go with the 'wise arse'. You take everything sooo personal.

Do you think I'm picking on you or something?

Actually I'm thinking of deleting that post since I generally don't like to talk about those days.

C'mon man, I just want to play the game too. So far everything I said is true, not mocking you or anything.

Although, I did enjoy the underground crap. I didn't get my fight experience and tattoos by being a moral, ethical, honest citizen. I just walked away from it for the sake of my family.

[hskwarrior]

i love the underground stuff. I can't lie. but thats how my life ran.

I was always involved with gangs be it latino, asian or polynesian, i just felt thats where i fit in and stayed there for a good part of my life where most of my friends were either drug dealers, gangsters, pimps and such. Speaking of drug dealers, its nice to know that a few good friends of mine after having their 1st and 2nd kids recently gave up the drug trade and are holding down full time jobs. that's cool becuse i was always afraid they would get caught up in the game and someday i would be visiting their grave stones.

you know the saying "once a gangster, always a gangster".

peace.

[lkfmdc]

the other two are kind of blurry, one looks like the school name sign... Hung Sing Gok Seut Gwoon.... etc etc

[hskwarrior]

honestly,

i thank you for your help David. And appreciate it in spite of what took place yesterday. hopefully thats out of our systems. literally.

once again thank you.


Frank

[hskwarrior]

there's the one with the red circle on the bottom of it.


whats gok suet?

anyways, these are from the picture frames which hung on Lau Buns walls.

and since none of us really speak or read chinese we have to rely on the help of others. thanks again david.

frank

[lkfmdc]

See if you can get a cleaner scan of the other two... I'll look again later, when I have more time, I am out the door now

Interesting, maybe to some not, thing about the fist one, the fourth character, actually first if you read it left to right, is the same character the Japanese use for Kata....

It can mean a bronze statue, a burial mound or law... very linked to ancient Chinese religious practices...

I"m out for now

[hskwarrior]

thanks again

[lkfmdc]

Got Seut ... National Art(s).... most know it by the mandarin (Kuo Shu, Guo Shou)...

I will look again now, too bad the copy is so blurry

[lkfmdc]

Maybe says

"proseperity (good fortune) to the overseas Hung Sing Martial Arts School"

but it is really blurry? Maybe my computer

Does the "wong tou lay" mean anything to you?

[Green Cloud]

Hey dave happy holidays buddy. So I havea question for ya. What's the difference between hung sing and our chin whan gi clf?? Figured that might start and interesting thread.

[lkfmdc]

Happy Holidays Gus!

Sifu's Choy Lay Fut was a mixture of several tradtions, he had 4 major teachers. Jyu Chyuhn's CLF mixed CLF with othe Shaolin arts, because the Ching Wan Jih was the home of many escaped Shaolin refugees. Sifu also studied with Hung Sing sifu Chan Sai Hung (whom I am named after)... Like most of Sifu Chan's stuff, he mixed togehter what he experienced worked and didn't care much for "tradition"...

As you know, Choy Lay Fut wasn't the number 1 thing I studied with Sifu, I was more a Lama man, but from my travels, I see flavors of all the schools in our CLF... We have sifu to thank for the diversity of our training. Michael said that even studying with Jy Chyuhn's son, it was different than the way sifu chan did things...

[lkfmdc]

A really old pic

http://www.angelfire.com/ny/sanshou/dukchan.jpg

Me with sifu when he was in the Chan family association building....

[hskwarrior]

wong tau lay? no it means nothing to me.

is it a name? if it is it may have been written by a Mantis guy.

unfortunately the chinese language stops with my sigung Jew Leong. i would have had a chance to learn the language better if my sifu spoke it other than the bad words. but there is no loss in meaning when the man shows you how to use a technique.
when that happens you get a full understanding of it as he uses it on you.

Well, i may not be as educated as you David, but it seems you covered the east coast while i covered the west when it came to breaking through the chinese barrier. thats cool.

if you have an email i can email you the photo's and maybe we can go from there.

but i do appreciate your help.

HSK

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


forgive me TCB, but i feel you come from a pacifist stand point.
Well, that's only partially true, more now than in my younger years.. i started this MA journey in 1964, got my first taste of "reality" in 1969 during a gov't sponsored vacation in Southeast Asia.. and for a long time i carried that experience as fuel to see that i was well prepared to prevail in any challenge before me.. You would be surprised at what lengths someone can go to test their training.. I have seen the fruits of that labor rot, the karma still haunts me from time to time.. What i have come to know is that violence breeds violence, it is a living entity that uses humanity as a host.. violence, like any living entity, will fight for its own survival.. its struggle with peace and harmony is played out through us.. I am certain of the need to be prepared to defend one's self and to defend the defenseless, i am less certain that the preparation should be sterilized of responsibility and consequences.. I teach as i was taught, survival first and respect for all life second..

More like that saying "first, do no harm"... I'm gonna make sure my school doesn't foster bad stuff, but beyond that it isn't my job..... It isn't my place to tell them not to smoke, not to eat red meat, who to vote for, what movies to watch, who to make friends with or what to do in the privacy of their home
I am of the same perspective as "Do no harm", except in defense of self and others.. as for "it isn't my job" to try to influence society in a positive way, i disagree.. too many people shy away from actually working toward a better society.. they let others do it.. well, "all it takes for evil to prosper is for good people to do nothing".. and when we reject the opportunity to contribute, that opportunity will be taken by those with agendas that pull society down into their control.. I think it is our job to point out the negative consequences of things like smoking and poor health habits.. things that can or will harm our students should be pointed out and alternatives presented..

Reading the past few pages of posts, it is apparent that their is a certain level of pride in people's adventures on the dark side.. i do not understand this. It romanticises a lifestyle of dark societies and codes of ethics that are contrary to the social well-being.. as i review the lengths at which some people will go to validate themselves, it is appears that morals, ethics and philosophies are little more than cultural curiosities to some.. i will not reveal the darker sides of my history for personal reasons and because it would violate trusts.. but, as i watch this amusing accounting of experiences i can't help but wonder, based on my own experiences, why invite the scrutiny of some that might be offended by certain revelations.. Of the experiences that i've had, many would draw certain retribution if they were made public.. i would ask Sifu Ross and HSK to consider how their teachers and the societies they speak of would feel about this discussion.. i don't need or want a response to that question, but.. considering the ability to stay on topic i'm pretty certain we will hear how tight they are and the subject is not an issue.. but, my experience leads me to honor the trust that others have placed in me.. to recount names, places and events would not be viewed favorably.. to do so in some misplaced attempt to convince others how valid i am would be even more "unethical".. i do apologize if this is viewed as offensive, it is intended as a courtesy, to ask that the subject be considered from a different perspective..

CMA has a sordid past and a dark side present even today.. is that the Tradition we present to our students? is that the direction that best serves society? A quote i like goes something like "better to be a warrior in the garden than a gardener in the war".. the warrior is better off in the garden! but, if necessary, the warrion can prevail.. We would all be better served if violence was treated as a possiblity rather than an inevitability.. too many schools turn out students looking for an opportunity to "show their stuff", too few turn out students that conceal it until it's needed..

My perspective, currently (it is subject to review and modification) is that we do need to teach on behalf of our students' overall well-being.. to present options that afford a healthier person and society.. otherwise we are just "good people doing nothing", or just not good people..

Be well...

[EarthDragon]

IT IS AMAZINg THAT THIS THREAD IS CALLED ETHICS AND MORLES IN MA!!!!


when lkcdmf says things like......................and I quote...........

Let's all stop and note that you have nothing to say... I am a senior adopted disciple of a famous Master, Chan Tai San

My Baai Si name is Chan Sai Hung, you're too ignorant to even understand what that means

I was invited by NACMAF to perform at the national masters demonstration at 19.

My circle of friends included the late master Lee Koon Hung, Wai Hong, Deric Mimms, Anthony Goh, Poi Chan, etc

I've been teaching for close to 20 years, the first years right in the heart of Chinatown.

My memberships in respected Chinese organizations is a laundry list of "who is who"

I really think you got it all wrong, you weren't paralyzed below the waist, you had brain damage....

and You really have no idea who you are talking to, which makes it even funnier. For you to tell me you've been accepted in places I'll never know, man you're a comin book. Can you identify the teachers in the pic I posted above? Do you have any idea the people I know or the organizations I belong to?

How can anyone take you seriously Ross? I dont mean to get on your case as you do, every once in a while have something positive to say but mostly you talk down to people, you think you are better than everyone else on this board and you brag about how good you are and how bad you are while degrating others.. this is not the sign of a good teacher or person for that matter. Grow up and help promote ma not hrt othetrs feelings whiel puttign yourself up on a pedestal fro then you will have father to fall. be well...........
__________________
So sexy, I'm banned in China!!!!

I am proud to say I am a disciple of the late Chan Tai San, a true master of Chinese martial art

[SPJ]

In response to TCB last post;

In the old time, a student or disciple has to sweep, carry water bucket to fill the water tank, clean, wash, cook and all sorts of manual jobs for years. Some are good for physically conditionings and more are about disciplining temperaments and cultivations of some good characters.

Even after years of "labors", if the stundent is considered good enough or worthy, then MA lessons start.

If you are not fit, healthy or conditioned, practice of MA will harm your health.

If you harbor ill wills, it will harm your mental health and derail your MA practice. Or you may not go far in your practice. or you are not ready to learn.

---

:D

[EarthDragon]

here is some more of LKFDF comments to others on this board......... and I ask you seriously Ross what do you have to say for yourself? again try not to brag too much OK? if you are a faction of what you think you are them\n you dont need to bring it up everday of your life to justify what you have not accomplished.. the only ones who brag about how much money they have are the only ones who actually dont have much................. listen learn and educate. try not to let your ego get in that way of this....... also the last time i brought something toyur attention fo your benifit you made a thread and tried o make fun of me.. why is
that? cant you just take heed to some constructive critasism without retaliation?

Quotes from the almighty God David Ross

these are all things you have said ................. pretty sad if you ask me please read

That one shows that dull look behind your eyes, autism maybe?

You said your last girlfriend went back to Asia? Did she run away after seeing you naked?

Other than what I've already posted? IE other than being the adopted disciple of Chan Tai San, the youngest person (Chinese or White) to be asked to perform at the NACMAF national masters' demonstration, a key figure in my lineage, the person who has written more on my tradition than anyone in the western world, the trainer of world and national champions, one of the few non-Chinese who has been accepted into many important TCMA organizations, the only white guy who hung around with Pak Hok Pai and Hop Ga in San Francisco, the guy drinking beer with Chan Poi at the bar,,,, I could go on

Because you are a mentally deficient loser who doesn't know what he thinks he knows, because you aren't the important person you've tried to convince yourself you are....

I don't drop names, I point out facts. When you make your ridiculous claims I challenge them, and you can't respond.

I'm sorry to have had to burst your bubble, but in my world you are NO ONE, you are insignificant. Not only do my lineages make you seem pathetic, so do my friends. YOu wanted to compare level of acceptance in the Mo LUm.... Clearly, I run with the big boys, while you play around in the kiddie pool

Compared to you, I am the lord almighty. I've trained 3 world champions and over 18 national champions. My students compete, win and hold titles in boxing, kickboxing, San Da, Lei Tai, Muay Thai, grappling and MMA....

I have over 250 active students right now.

Every year I went to Tat Mau Wong's event as an honored guest, had my expenses paid, dinners bought for me, etc... I performed in the masters demonstrations.

Where were you? If you're such a "big name" over in SF's Chinatown, how come I've never heard of you, never seen you? To me, you're Jonny come lately, way lately...

In the 1990's I spent every summer in SF's Chinatown, training with a lot of respected TCMA people. Where were you? Why haven't I ever heard of you?

have higher, much higher, lineage than you in Choy Lay Fut. I've done it longer. I've done TCMA longer. I am considered an equal by very reputable and respected masters. IE I've been around longer, seen more, done more.

Needless to say, I'm also more educated than you are, but that isn't even a stretch.

I've been teaching longer, and I have a proven record of producing better students. Like I said, you really don't want to compare students.

I laughed my arse off when you tried to call me a commercial school, that's a code word for your school has no students, no one cares about you and you're pizzed I'm making mad bucks doing what I love...

If you were at Tat Mau's you must have paid to come as a spectator, I would have remembered your fat ass if you had tried to demonstrate.

Now, why do you bring up wives? Because you are a lonely loser who probably has to pay to get some??

People who know me know my first wife was drop dead beauty, and my second wife is BETTER looking...

Like I keep saying, you're a moron, because you haven't heard of something you can't fathom what it's significance is..

Wow Ross what a great man you are........be well

[EarthDragon]

here is some more of LKFDF comments to others on this board......... and I ask you seriously Ross what do you have to say for yourself? again try not to brag too much OK? if you are a faction of what you think you are them\n you dont need to bring it up everday of your life to justify what you have not accomplished.. the only ones who brag about how much money they have are the only ones who actually dont have much................. listen learn and educate. try not to let your ego get in that way of this....... also the last time i brought something toyur attention fo your benifit you made a thread and tried o make fun of me.. why is
that? cant you just take heed to some constructive critasism without retaliation?

Quotes from the almighty God David Ross

these are all things you have said ................. pretty sad if you ask me please read

That one shows that dull look behind your eyes, autism maybe?

You said your last girlfriend went back to Asia? Did she run away after seeing you naked?

Other than what I've already posted? IE other than being the adopted disciple of Chan Tai San, the youngest person (Chinese or White) to be asked to perform at the NACMAF national masters' demonstration, a key figure in my lineage, the person who has written more on my tradition than anyone in the western world, the trainer of world and national champions, one of the few non-Chinese who has been accepted into many important TCMA organizations, the only white guy who hung around with Pak Hok Pai and Hop Ga in San Francisco, the guy drinking beer with Chan Poi at the bar,,,, I could go on

Because you are a mentally deficient loser who doesn't know what he thinks he knows, because you aren't the important person you've tried to convince yourself you are....

I don't drop names, I point out facts. When you make your ridiculous claims I challenge them, and you can't respond.

I'm sorry to have had to burst your bubble, but in my world you are NO ONE, you are insignificant. Not only do my lineages make you seem pathetic, so do my friends. YOu wanted to compare level of acceptance in the Mo LUm.... Clearly, I run with the big boys, while you play around in the kiddie pool

Compared to you, I am the lord almighty. I've trained 3 world champions and over 18 national champions. My students compete, win and hold titles in boxing, kickboxing, San Da, Lei Tai, Muay Thai, grappling and MMA....

I have over 250 active students right now.

Every year I went to Tat Mau Wong's event as an honored guest, had my expenses paid, dinners bought for me, etc... I performed in the masters demonstrations.

Where were you? If you're such a "big name" over in SF's Chinatown, how come I've never heard of you, never seen you? To me, you're Jonny come lately, way lately...

In the 1990's I spent every summer in SF's Chinatown, training with a lot of respected TCMA people. Where were you? Why haven't I ever heard of you?

have higher, much higher, lineage than you in Choy Lay Fut. I've done it longer. I've done TCMA longer. I am considered an equal by very reputable and respected masters. IE I've been around longer, seen more, done more.

Needless to say, I'm also more educated than you are, but that isn't even a stretch.

I've been teaching longer, and I have a proven record of producing better students. Like I said, you really don't want to compare students.

I laughed my arse off when you tried to call me a commercial school, that's a code word for your school has no students, no one cares about you and you're pizzed I'm making mad bucks doing what I love...

If you were at Tat Mau's you must have paid to come as a spectator, I would have remembered your fat ass if you had tried to demonstrate.

Now, why do you bring up wives? Because you are a lonely loser who probably has to pay to get some??

People who know me know my first wife was drop dead beauty, and my second wife is BETTER looking...

Like I keep saying, you're a moron, because you haven't heard of something you can't fathom what it's significance is..

Wow Ross what a great man you are........be well

[Ou Ji]

A couple of questions for you EarthDragon.

If your sifu is a jerk is it ok for you to be a jerk?

If your sifu scams students he doesn't feel worthy is it ok for you to do the same?

Ross is the poster boy but it comes out in the posts of the others as well. Check out the creation thread for example.

I think they answer the question that's asked in this thread.

[lkfmdc]

Earth Dragon, wow, impressive, you can cut and paste parts of this thread into one post!!! Without you, no one could have read those statements on their own :rolleyes:

Ou Ji, as a completely factual point, you have NO IDEA what I teach my students and how I treat them, so the above post is pure crap....

[Ou Ji]

ey, I just asked a couple of questions that pertain to the topic of this thread. If the shoe fits ...

Oh wait, that's right, the world revolves around lkfmdc.
:D

[lkfmdc]

If your sifu scams students he doesn't feel worthy is it ok for you to do the same?

Ross is the poster boy ....



IS there another poster on here with the family name Ross? :rolleyes:

[Ou Ji]

cjurakpt
Nice post but missed the point. Oh well, guess it's hard for you guys to understand us peons. Maybe re-read the CTS thread and you'll find what I'm talking about but most likely your blinders will block it out.

Maybe someday one of the less fortunate (only CTS students here are the chosen ones) will come online and tell us what he learned from CTS. You know I'm basing my opinions on what YOU guys are telling us.

Yes Ross, you were the basis which prompted the GENERALIZED question put forth not only to EarthDragon but the rest of the forum members. Let's see the questions are ... and the thread topic is ....?

[lkfmdc]

Ou Ji, like I just said, you have NO IDEA at all what I teach my students or how I treat them, so what you just said was bull crap...

Sorry that you can't believe from one post, ie Chris, that it's true... but still, you have no right to say I've cheated any of my studnets when you have no idea what you are talking about....

[Ou Ji]

Dude you are so clueless it's actually funny.

[lkfmdc]

Ou Ji, the guy who is afraid a pic of him might show up on the internet, is trying to get personal?

What cluelessness? YOu're saying that since Chan Tai San didn't treat all his students equally, I am not or have not either...

The only reason you know about Chan Tai San is because people like me and Chriss have discussed it

You don't know jack otherwise...

You have no idea what I teach my students or how they've been treated.

So stop trying to act slick, and drop the crap....

[Ou Ji]

Ou Ji, like I just said, you have NO IDEA at all what I teach my students or how I treat them, so what you just said was bull crap...

Let's see, you are correct on the first part. I have no idea (other than what I've seen on the website and heard here) what you teach your students. BUT I never said you taught them crap.

So, the correct answer (the scholarly answer if you, indeed, are the scholar you believe yourself to be) would be something like "No, I don't believe a student should continue practices like this and I make an effort to treat all my students with respect and teach them to the best of their abilities".

Of course you would rather rant and rave and get your panties in a bunch. Go ahead, dig them out. We won't look. :D

[lkfmdc]

What a pansy answer :rolleyes:

Anyone who has ever read my posts knows what my feelings are on getting the most out of your students, treating them all equally, etc...

For lord's sake, it is the argument I use for my more modern training methods, that traditional methods meant only a selcet few got it, you know, the ones that people here freak out about all the time :rolleyes:

So, you tried to imply something that wasn't true, and when called on it went "oh, that isn't what I said" :rolleyes:

[Ou Ji]

So you can say that CTS was a jerk at times but I can't? I'm basing my opinions on the stories YOU guys tell.

Basically I'm asking that if your sifu has bad habits do you think it's ok for the students? Are you your own man or are you trying to be your sifu?

Take that personal if you want. Tell us your opinion.

lkfmdc, are YOU trying to be your sifu? There, does that make you feel better?

IMO lkfmdc is a prime example. Seems his teacher had the 'I'm holier than thou' attitude so he either thinks it's ok (or cool) or he's just a natural at making friends (not).

BTW, the question is open to all, really. I know there's more than 3 or 4 people on here.

[Ou Ji]

What a pansy answer :rolleyes:

Huh?

I'm sorry it's not the answer you wanted. Life exists outside of your control. How about that concept?

I think I've stated it plainly in other posts that I think you're a jerk. I don't care much for your attitude and how you treat others here. Apparently I'm not the only one.

I'm hoping it's just an online persona and you don't treat your students like that. The fact that you have quite a few suggests you are somewhat normal in real life.

[lkfmdc]

Back to the discussion




Reading the past few pages of posts, it is apparent that their is a certain level of pride in people's adventures on the dark side.. i do not understand this.



On this, we agree. It was the aspect of TCMA training that I hated. As soon as I had a chance, I left the comunity to escape that aspect.





i would ask Sifu Ross and HSK to consider how their teachers and the societies they speak of would feel about this discussion..



How would Sifu Chan feel about me discussing his dark side? He wouldn't care, he openly discussed it. Where he came from it wasn't even an issue, it was a basic assumption.

But he lived in circumstances very different than the average person today. That is perhaps what is important.





CMA has a sordid past and a dark side present even today.. is that the Tradition we present to our students? is that the direction that best serves society?



Not really the correct formulation. We don't preserve or present it, but we must acknowledge it. To be politically correct and bury it does MORE HARM.

When a student understands that back in the old days, they DID fight, but they also died, that they fought because they had no choice, that the fighting had lots to do with their lives, their attitudes, their mentality

To understand that these were rough people who lived and died in a harsh, often cruel world

That it wasn't about any secret technique, or such, it was the same brawl you see in a bad neighborhood or in prison...

For my part, I teach my students functional self defense, not the street fighting and "bang pai" style from the past. I don't want them to go to that dark place, I know the difference between the two....





too many schools turn out students looking for an opportunity to "show their stuff",



Because too many are raised on Kung Fu Theatre, heroic novels and similar false beliefs. Explain what it is really about and they'll be less likely to glamorize it..

Harry Ng Yim Ming was mentioned, the famous "good bye sifu" and a few gun shots and he was gone, the most public display, but hardly an uncommon occurance... There is nothing glamorous about being knifed or shot, especially for something someone you associate with did.

[Ou Ji]

ummm...right - you can't

Sorry but F* you, I have an opinion whether you happen to like it or not. And I'll speak my mind when I want regardless of how you feel about it.

Gee, that actually sounds like Dave Ross but somehow it's ok for him but not for others. WTF???

Life is tough, get used to it.


then you'd better preface everything you say with "according to what the students of CTS wrote in this particular post" and then reference it specifically;

Or what? Gonna tell my mom, kick my ass, what? I'm not writing a term paper here but I'll take a few minutes and pull out some quotes if that will help you understand.

Some teachers are judged by the students they turn out. Ever think about that?

You know I don't personally know our president but I think he's a jerk too. Funny but people have a tendency to form opinions whether it's based on a personal relationship or something they read. It happens, it's life, deal with it or go cry to your mama.


you seem to focus just on the negative

It was the negative attitude your KF brother has that brought it out but apparently he can do no wrong. I would suggest you be a friend and let him know that he's making a bad name for himself that detracts from his positive accomplishments.


but he never misrepresented himself and he never hid his face or was afraid to show who he really was in public, unlike SOME people...

There was a specific reason I created this personna that really doesn't matter anymore. I've just become used to being anonymous and like that fact that I can speak without people having any pre-conceived notions based on my location, style and teacher. But I am, normally, a stand up and show your face type of guy.

Because of that here's what I'll do. I'll pm you and lkfmdc and tell you who I am. Then you guys can rant and rave, call my sifu, whatever you want. You can splash my name all over the forum if it makes you feel better.


you ought to remain silent, it would probably do you some good

I held off for awhile but that God complex exhibited by lkfmdc just can't be ignored.

Don't expect to treat people like **** and not get called on it.

[Ou Ji]

Here's a couple of quotes from the CTS thread:

Other times, Sifu Chan would be contacted by all Chinese groups to teach on a contract basis. Sifu Chan, as was his nature, would of course take the money, then often mess with the heads of those groups. It was like "I am Chan Tai San, and I thumb my nose at you and your thinking you are anyone"

NOTE: I can see where Dave get's his attitude. The question is should one strive to become a better person or is it ok to be like that because your sifu was like that? (Hint for the paranoid, I'm not talking about anyone specific. The question is pertinent to the topic)

Sifu Chan's favorite "trick" was to take the money and then have a monkey, usually me, a lowly gwai loh, do the actual teaching. I got used to the drill. He'd tell me to show up some place at a certain time. By the time I'd shown up, Sifu had taken the money and closed the deal, he'd usually start something with the group. Then, as soon as I arrived, he'd hand them all over to me and LEAVE.... I taught in the White Crane school, and in 4 or 5 different "associaitons" over the years because of this "trick"...

NOTE: That "trick" is commonly known as 'bait and switch' which is unethical as well as illegal.

It was also common knowledge that my sifu had A, B, C, even D versions of everything he taught. Like I said previously, usually in 5 minutes he figured out whether you had potential or not. If you didn't, he never bothered to even try and show you the real stuff...

This is why, from time to time, you'll see some whining SOB claim that Chan Tai San
didn't know anything. He'll inevitably claim he studied with him and learned crap. Of course, that doesn't mean Sifu Chan didn't know anything, it meant he never showed YOU anything of value. There is a difference.....

NOTE: So the students paying good money expecting to learn the real deal from a Master were scammed.

Sorry but I don't care much for that kind of attitude and I don't think it should be perpetuated. I'll have to say that after this latest discussion I lean towards instilling ethics, compassion, and humility in students that are learning how to hurt others. The yang needs to be offset by some yin.

Now remember we're discussing this in a thread that questions the value of teaching ethics to people that may someday be in a position to influence many others, including children.

Also consider whether you would entrust weapons to someone who has shown a blatant disregard for the feeling of others who are members of a communilty that he cherishes. (yes I was thinking about Ross when I said this)

[hskwarrior]

i can see both sides of the fence on this one.

From one stand point we have David Ross who has dealt with a lot, probably learned alot from his teacher, and is extremely loyal to his sifu-regardless of what his sifu does, or did in the past.

I've often said to my sifu "Even if i never learned the real deal stuff because of this chinese/Gwai Lo scenario, you've taught me enough to take what i learned and make it work." Because if you stay with a sifu long enough you begin to pick up some of his habits good or bad.

It is very possible that dave strived to walk in the steps of Chan Tai San, hell I've followed the same footsteps, and have even experienced the same things my sifu had because he was not full chinese. I can see why David is so proud, I don't know much about CTS but from what his people have said it seems he does fall into the category of a real master. And thats a lot to be proud of.

Trying to take an outsider point of view to this argument, i can also see where the people are getting upset. I may be wrong, but it sounds like people are saying let the actions of CTS speak for itself. Aggressively bragging about such and such and about yourself can seem like "all talk no action".

As much as Dave Ross has in his background he is very proud. I have accomplished some of the very same things he has along with a few others, but my sifu never likes to brag, and feels it makes a sifu look bad when he does instead of his students. I have much to be proud of being from the oldest existing gung fu school in the US. But i try to keep it to a minimum.

all im basically saying is try and step back for a second and understand where the other is coming from. If we can admit that everyone here has something to be proud of, we can move on. after the dust settled i did notice that Dave Ross and i have a lot in common, aside of his schooling, gung fu wise very similar. we're both hardheads who won't let go.

just share all the info and lets stop the bickering and bragging and maybe we can actually learn something about CTS instead of and i don't feel this way- having it forced down the throats of people who are not ready for that much realism.

Lets face it, Dave is right. many people freak out when they hear the negative side of a sifu. but that sifu is still a human being with emotions, feelings, attitude, and etc., etc. Once again lets face it, Professor Lau Bun is the Patriarch of American gung fu, but aside from gung fu he taught chinese mafia how to use and kill with choy lee fut. Most Chinese would want to take that to the grave with them, but how will people remember if no one tells?

just like my sifu who has lived through the notorious street gangs, jail, drugs, and street life. But look at him now, he is the head of an 80+ year old gung fu family which is still going strong. At his age now, he doesn't want anyone to know about his past. he's not proud of it, because he actually lived it, and not just spoke about it.

and i am proud be a part of that family because who knows i may be the next successor. but who's bragging?:rolleyes:

[Ou Ji]

Trying to take an outsider point of view to this argument, i can also see where the people are getting upset. I may be wrong, but it sounds like people are saying let the actions of CTS speak for itself. Aggressively bragging about such and such and about yourself can seem like "all talk no action".

In my case it's more like 'get off your high horse and share without insulting everyone'.


just share all the info and lets stop the bickering and bragging and maybe we can actually learn something about CTS instead of and i don't feel this way- having it forced down the throats of people who are not ready for that much realism.

Way to stick to your guns there Frank.:)

Shielding people from realism is a bad thing. But we went off track here. This isn't the CTS thread. It isn't even the Dave Ross thread. It's a discussion of the value of teaching ethics and morals in a kung fu class.

Now, CMA can stay the property of criminals or it can progress with society and help others in defense of criminal activity.

[hskwarrior]

martial arts is what it is in the hands of others.

i

[Ou Ji]

I think you've missed the point - you can post whatever you want, speak your mind all you please, of course, but you can't really say anything about CTS because you never met him, talked to him, saw him do anything - anything you say is based on what we choose to post about him - so in essence you are not saying anything about him - you're just regurgitating our information

Meeting someone is not a requirement to speak about them. I really don't know where you get these ideas from.

As far as just regurgitating your information it makes me wonder why you're arguing with me then. I'm just saying what you already said so take it up with yourself, not me.


the difference with Bush is that you've seen him talk in person, so you have an idea what he's about; with CTS, it's no exposure, nothing except our stories about him;

And you're absolutely sure about that?


obviously you still have a problem with him based on that

You're making way more out of this than was intended. I fully expect you to stick up for your sifu but by your own words he was a jerk at times as well as dishonest. Apparently that is a fact but if I say it it's a problem. My opinion of you and your KF brothers is rapidly declining, not that any of you really care.


Dave isn't anything like him - he's never killed any one, he's never cheated anyone, he's never held anything back from anyone - so it seems as if there's a departure in a big way from the quotes you have cited (nice job by the way - you and ED are really good at that - it that what they are teaching in PM schools these days?)

Good for Dave. Now maybe he can tell us that without strutting around proclaiming how great he is and putting down everyone else.

Man you guys are a piece of work. You want me to back my comments with a reference to your posts and when I do you make fun of me for doing so.


see, I can take Dave the way he is, irritants and all

But if someone else points out his irritating nature it becomes fightin' words. Funny how it keeps coming out that you're in agreement but you still keep giving me a hard time about it.


why can't you just ignore him and let him lie in the bed he has made?

I did until Frank brought it up so I felt compelled voice my opinion. Just like EarthDragon decided to speak his piece at this time. You guys are the ones turning it into circus sideshow. You could have just said 'yep, he's a bit full of himself but his intentions are good' or something like that but instead you prefer to make a major argument out of something that you actually don't dispute.


again, you misunderstand - I personally don't really care who you are per se - I just think that to talk trash and not show your real face is kinda cheezy - no risk - if you don't like what I say, you can start telling all your friends about that guy Chris Jurak, PT who is a jerk, etc. and if they ever see my name attached to something, then that's too bad for me; but I'm willing to live with that possibility, as is Dave; anyway, save yourself the PM...

Unfortunately I used this name to respond instead of ressurecting my screen name that's attached to my real name. I'm sure if he really wanted to Dave could pull some strings and get my info.

And it's not just a mattter of talking trash. I'm trying to tell you that some of us here are getting tired of overinflated ego and the insulting nature of some of his posts. Go back to telling cool CTS stories or contributing with technical and historical info but drop the 'you're an idiot if you think' type of comments.

You guys seem educated enough that you shouldn't need to resort to such lowbrow debating tactics like "if someone has the immature need to believe". Now that's a way to start off a discussion about a subject the some are very passionate about. Inferring immaturity in anyone with the opposing view as your initial comment taints anything that comes after. But that's another thread.


anyway, here is where I tell you that you can feel free to have the last post on this topic, I won't bother responding in this vein again, etc. etc. etc.

I'm about done with it myself as I'm sure the rest of the forum is as well. Apparently I don't explain myself well or your comprehension is lacking in some areas. I'm inclined to think a little of both but I'm sure in your world it's all me.

BTW, have you actually weighed in on the topic of this post or were you here just to mouth dance with me? What's your opinion on the subject?

[lkfmdc]

Frank, nice post, I think you got it exactly as I see it

-------

Ou Ji. I know this is going to sound arragont and all, but perhaps I don't care what you think about me? Ever considered that?

Perhaps you are projecting, perhaps you are simply insecure about your own accomplishments, experience and education...

I hate to say this, but you're coming across as having some serious personal issues that are your own.

Thinking back on what you wrote to me in a PM, that had nothing to do with even why you PM'ed me.... I didn't think anything of it then, now I'm considering it.

I know, it is going to sound arrogant, but I don't care who you are. I do think it's childish to toss insults and claim to have information when you aren't clear about what that information is and refuse to identify yourself. But believe it or not, it isn't important enough for me to really bother to try and find out

Face it, uneducated people always think educated people think they are above them. It's projection. The very fact we have our degrees and use them bothers you (in the general sense of "you" so you dont have to respond)....

Face it, people hate it when you point out that not all opinions are equal. You want to talk about training people to fight (oh, that's another general "you" so don't freak out), fine, but are you as qualified?

If there is a debate about something, and two people have two different opinions, believe it or not, you CAN figure out which is the more educated opinion based upon someone's education, experience, etc.

Everytime I list my credentials and experiences, people get all upset. But wheter they get upset or not, those are really my experiences and credentials.

When I say I have more experience than a lot of people on this board, you call it arrogant. I just call it fact.

Pleasnat dreams

[Ou Ji]

Ou Ji. I know this is going to sound arragont and all, but perhaps I don't care what you think about me? Ever considered that?

I consider that a fact. I would be extremely surprised if it were any other way. Big egos don't need anyone but themselves. Although you're sure doing an awful lot of typing for something you don't care about. :)


Perhaps you are projecting, perhaps you are simply insecure about your own accomplishments, experience and education...

Of course, anything but the possibility that I'm right and you are wrong. I'm sure that never even entered your head for a second. Big egos have no room for thoughts that aren't self generated.


I hate to say this, but you're coming across as having some serious personal issues that are your own.

Yes, I'm human but I try to improve myself. Hard for you to understand since you have no room for improvement. We all strive to be more Ross-like.


I know, it is going to sound arrogant,

You arragont? I'm shocked.


I do think it's childish to toss insults and claim to have information when you aren't clear about what that information is

Ok, seriously, you lost me on this one. What information is it I claim to have? And tossing insults IS childish which is why I brought your behavior to your attention. Or are you now claiming you haven't tossed any insults in any of your previous posts?


and refuse to identify yourself.

Sorry, wrong again. I just recently posted that I would PM you with my identity. Besides how can I refuse when I was never asked in the first place?

The rest of your post was generalized and not directed specifically at me so I'll leave it for others.

However I will say this, you're making assumptions about me when you admittedly don't know me or anything about me. I could have a stack of degrees or none at all. I could have hundreds of students or none at all. Regardless you seem to feel that no matter what my background or accomplishments are you are much better. You are so full of yourself that it's disgusting. That and they way you insult and rudely talk down to others makes you a bit of a jerk in my book.

And once again you try to redirect the focus to it being your credentials or experiences and miss the point completely. Tooting your own horn constantly and relentlessly gets old fast and some of us are just tired of your bragging. Get over yourself already.

So is anyone going to jump in and comment on the topic of the thread or is this the end of it? Nice topic anyhow TCB, I think the thread answers it's own question and it's modified my opinion of the subject. Thanks.

[lkfmdc]

Ou Ji

Try and pay attention.

First, I figure Frank and I are on cool terms now, so don't twist this, it isn't about him any longer, I'm making a point...

But this was Frank's post to me


so enlighten us lfkdmc............


what is your extent of knowledge on chinese culture? where did you get this vast knowledge?

what makes you possess the correct knowledge as opposed to anyone else?

I can see that you feel you are more cultured in chinese society than i am? HMMM.

nice to dream.


but break it down to me. tell me about all the experience you've had.

I hope its not as simple as going to chinatown for dimsum. I hope that doesn't backfire on you one day. You're not dealing with the real chinatown like i am.

but i'll let you tell it.

So, let's de-construct this post....

Frank jumped before he had all the facts. He assumed I wasn't "dealing with the real chinatown" like he was...

He accused me of not knowing anything about Chinatown or Chinese culture beyond "going to chinatown for dimsum"

Sounds a little arrogant and condescending doesn't it? But again, we're beyond that so I'm not pointing this out to attack Frank now, I'm arguing a separate point..

Frank asked me directly

"what is your extent of knowledge on chinese culture? where did you get this vast knowledge?"

So, come on now, you can admit it, I didn't just start lising my degrees and who I studied with because it amused me. I was responding directly to his question

[lkfmdc]

Again, this isn't the re-open any argument with Frank, we're cool I figure, but let's just examine this

When both Chris and I state that I have an advanced degree in Chinese history


see what i mean?:confused:

This man is so full of himself.



So, the factualy statement that I have an advanced degree in Chinese history is being "full of himself"? Or maybe it's just the answer to your question about who am I to correct something about Chinese history?

Hmmmm, difficult one to ponder :rolleyes:

But more importantly...




he's like a spoiled little kid who has a new pair of shoes and mocks everyone who doesn't.

but he does remind me of what the sf bay area chinese call Yellow fever. he's not chinese, but has learned gung fu, went to china, married a chinese, wanted to learn and speak chinese, probably eats all his chinese food with chop sticks, and acts and thinks like a chinese much like bruce leroy. hahahahaha thats who he reminds me of........Bruce LeeRoy.



Clearly, Frank made a mistake, he assumed he know what sort of person I was when really, he didn't know anything about me...

Frank made it personal, so I responded personal... we're beyond that now, but Ou Ji, you want to conveinantly forget all that, just like Earth Dragon did!

Funny how you both forget the context so easy huh?

[Ou Ji]

D a m n, these things take on a life of their own don't they?

I'll try to make this short.

The only problem I have with CTS is he's gone and I can't get to his knowledge plus I don't agree with a lot of the things he did (based on information presented on this forum by his top students).

There are enough scams and cheats in the MA world and to hear about someone like him pulling this crap makes me angry. We need to be putting a stop to this type of behavior because it gives the CMA a bad name. Hopefully you'll agree and avoid the knee-jerk reaction to defend your sifu.

Question - where did you get the idea I study 8 Step Mantis?

I'll skip the comment about creation v evolution. If I get the urge to state my opinion about it I'll do it on that thread, not this one. I was just pointing out that you entered the debate with an insult to the opposing viewpoint. There was no need for that but maybe you guys don't realize how often you do that. Or you just don't care. But if it's ok for you then why wig out when I throw out an insult. If you're going to dish it out you should be prepared to take it.

Besides, like I said, you guys seem educated enough that you should be able discuss something without being rude and insulting. Save that for when you're losing the argument. :p

[lkfmdc]

Question - where did you get the idea I study 8 Step Mantis?



I'm guessing this is directed at Chris? :confused: I never said that? :confused:

[lkfmdc]

The only problem I have with CTS is he's gone and I can't get to his knowledge plus I don't agree with a lot of the things he did (based on information presented on this forum by his top students).

There are enough scams and cheats in the MA world and to hear about someone like him pulling this crap makes me angry. We need to be putting a stop to this type of behavior because it gives the CMA a bad name. Hopefully you'll agree and avoid the knee-jerk reaction to defend your sifu.



Initially, I was simply doing "old school" history, ie relating the events as they happened with no analysis

If you ask me for analysis and opinion, I'd say that in my experience, Chan Tai San was part of the mainstream in TCMA, many masters who have real skills and from real lineages do and have done that sort of stuff...

I think I've already stated I don't support those actions, but I tell them like they happened

[Ou Ji]

Frank was rapidly digging himself into a hole and actually it was somewhat amusing to watch. You clearly have the edge on pretty much all counts.

And you are correct that you were only responding to Frank's questions. But what got Frank all fired up? Could it be your history of posts we've all been reading?

Is this the thread that annoyed EarthDragon or is he tired of hearing how great you are and how great your sifu was while telling everyone else they know nothing. I'll leave him to speak for himself.

[lkfmdc]

Frank was rapidly digging himself into a hole and actually it was somewhat amusing to watch. You clearly have the edge on pretty much all counts.

And you are correct that you were only responding to Frank's questions.



Sorry, just had to quote you

Let is sit there, age like fine wine

I might add it to my signature line :D

[lkfmdc]

But what got Frank all fired up? Could it be your history of posts we've all been reading?

Is this the thread that annoyed EarthDragon or is he tired of hearing how great you are and how great your sifu was while telling everyone else they know nothing.

They can speak for themselves if they wish, but some obvious possibilities why I'm not #1 fan boy here include;

1. I maligned the good name of Shaolin! Some TCMA people take this stuff way too seriously...

2. I consistently expose the "negative' in TCMA... this is an interesting case point. Some get upset because they simply don't believe it, just like the Shaolin case, they think I'm "bad mouthing" something they hold sacred. A lot of people take martial arts as seriously as they do religion.

Others know the truth, but don't want it spoken. They feel all that is best left in the past. Better to deny it ever happened. Maybe it's a pet peeve, but those are the types that really set me off... they remind me of certain Holocaust deniers, some Holocaust deniers privately admit they know it is of course true, but think mankind is better off if we never admit that man can go so low... oh, that's just the historian speaking, never mind

3. Jealousness (did I spell that correctly?) - there are always those who simply don't like someone who has done what they always wanted to do but never achieved...

I do get lots of sideways comments about being commercial :rolleyes: Yes, I make money doing martial arts, I actually make a good living, it is NOT a crime

4. Others feel I betrayed the arts because I teach a modern way, ie San Da.... I can't really express how many times this came up.... what is ironic is how half feel I abandoned my teacher's material while the other half accuses me of just living off him?

For the record, I've never used my sifu's name in my school. Nor have I used his picture. Nor have I sold anything of his, like him on tape.

History teaches us, or me, that people who have strongly held convictions, especially if they are outside the accepted norm, are never popular. TCMA guys call me Satan for "leaving" them. MMA people claim I'm a fraud because, after all, no TCMA people fight :rolleyes: You can't win a popularity contest, and if you try, you're a fool IMHO

[hskwarrior]

ou ji,

i beg to differ with your notion that he had me beat on all aspects. Digging a hole my arse. Nothing the man said offened me, nor can he tell by a simple picture whether im good or not. I wasn't impressed with his pictures either, but that doesn't mean that the man isn't good at what he does. I never felt like he had me in the corner, it was me and him head butting each other. I don't feel there was a winner or loser.

In fact in understand him more than you realize. In his case he comes from a teacher he is proud to be from. So am i. In the regards to gung fu he and i live similar lives, the only difference is he's opened a so-called "commercial" while i run a more select and private school. I don't need a building to be able to teach a bunch of students, or even to be able to train champions.

I am not in competition with David, I just didn't like how he was coming across until i learned more about him. thats when i realized he is really proud of breaking through where most in his area couldn't.

For you too David,

I also broke through that stupid arse Chinese against the Gwai Lo stuff. My mechanic always tells me "Gwai Lo gung fu no good" because in his opinion that only chinese will ever have good gung fu. In fact, Im just the first caucasian while the other is an African American named Hannibal-my sifu's very first student- to break through the chinatown wall. But i'm sure that i've experienced the very same things he has. and im sure there are things neither of us have experienced as well.

Im proud as hell to be the first caucasian to make to Professor Lau Bun's direct family tree. I am in line to become the next successor of this great lineage. regardless, im proud as hell to be a part of it.

So now that i seen David's situation in a different light, i respect the man now. Do i like the way he brags about himself? No. I feel he should let his reputation speak for itself. Why self promote? I also feel that since no one in the Chan Tai San organization is disputing his claims, he every right to be proud. I just feel that he shouldn't expose "SO MUCH" pride.

Regardless of how good you are, the chinese don't like people who brag all the time. Let the people brag about you while you just bask in the glory. My problem with David on my end has been squashed, and i actually wish him more success.

peace.

[lkfmdc]

Frank thought I was someone else, and I Do have a bad temper, but it's pretty much a dead issue unless somone other than the two of us has a say in it! ??

That shoudl be pretty obvious, would I translate something for the man if I was in a beef with him?

[hskwarrior]

david,

i want you to know that i tried to rattle your tree for one reason. I didn't know much about you, but i figure if i were to Hypethetically slap you i would see how you would truly respond.

you were bragging so much i said to myself, let's see what he really knows.

I always knew i could be wrong, that's why i never took to heart anything you've said about me or my mother. i just wanted to see what you really had going. I hope YOU could understand that tactic. you and i think alike more than you realize.

Once i got the jist of your background, it all made sense to me. One, being that you are a new yorker, and being in Hell's Kitchen....you are going to be sortof ****y. But then i realized as well by your previous posts, Chan Tai San didn't care who liked him or not. He saw a side of gung fu your average martial artist couldn't fathom. and being a student of this type of master meant that if you were in the Inner Circle you were going to learn so real deal sheet.

David, i've felt that way for much of my own ma career. We approached our CLF unlike that of any other CLF school in the area, or even other gung fu schools for that matter. we were known as a fighting school. People always knew when we were there things could happen at any moment. anyways, i can see where you are coming from.

So all i can do is ask.....Please, tone down your bragging and such because others are not as tough skinned as you. it is not their fault that they don' possess the knowledge you do. And sometimes we may want to throw that fact in their faces, but hey, you and i like some of the others here are sifu's. we should conduct ourselves a little less aggressively, unless the threat is right in front of you.

You seem like a cool cat David, and it would be fun to compare notes on how each of our lineages approaches various applications and such some day.

Understand something for me though, I don't know you personally, so it couldn't be personal. Kapiesh?


Frankie Frank

[hskwarrior]

and i do thank you for that .


The only beef we should have is KOBE Beef. ;)

[shaolinboxer]

I work with a lot of violent and emotionally disturbed kids.

Having a philosophy of non-violence and minimal force when necessary is a key component of what makes me capable of controlling and teaching them. At the same time, it's my understanding of violence and capacity for it that gives me the strength to face it.

To be skilled in fighting is the first great accomplishment for a martial artist. To be able to resolve and contain violence is the next.

[Ou Ji]

but you are on that thread about the mantis lineage over there and your title is a play on mantis - so, again, logical inference re PM - am i incorrect?

I guess you missed the title before that which was Hong Hou Quan. That was my style (joke) for awhile. Infinite Monkey Boxing - throw every technique imaginable and eventually something will land. :) It changes when something strikes me as funny.

But yes, I do know some Northern Mantis. I know some CLF too but you didn't lump me in with those, I mean you guys. :-)

As for the F word I have a bit of a nasty past that I've pulled myself out from and very easy to fall back into but I actively work on trying to be a better person.

It's that past that prompts me to speak out when someone proclaims to be the shiznit and proceed to beat everyone over the head with it. Street takes over then.

Anyhow Dave is flying high with a super-inflated ego now that I acknowledged his accomplishments, which I never had a problem with in the first place regardless of what he thinks was going on. Judging by his last post he's still deluded and missing the boat but that seems typical of people that think too much of themselves.

EDIT: Holy Crap you can't say net f o r u m? net forum netforum

EDIT: I can type it in a post but not in my profile?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

So...... it seems that, at some level, there are codes of conduct (ethics, good or bad) that most schools adhere to.. the code may be silk, flowers, incense and feel good or it may be "kill well".. but, it is a code.. to further the intention of the thread.. do you guys/gals find any value in developing a socially responsible code, not a "feel good" code.. but, a code that points CMA in a direction of bettering the human condition.. (Note: there are times when extreme violence is necessary to impose a "better" condition)..

Just curious, Be Well..

[lkfmdc]

Ou Ji, you have issues man.... don't lay them on me....

Other than that, this thread is done like tanksgiving turkey

[Ou Ji]

My exposure to CTS is nothing more than seeing his qigong demos over the years. Never met him personally but I have known of him for quite a few years. If it was any more than that I would post it in the CTS thread and not here.

TCB
As I posted in one of my rants I'm reconsidering the issue myself based on this thread. Some of those codes had value back in the day but not all are applicable today. I think they should be adjusted to reflect the current society.

When I look at all the trash talking kids growing up these days with no respect for others around them it makes me think there should be some values taught alongside the fighting skills.

Who wants to put weapons in the hands of rude people with little regard for the feelings of others?

Yes MA skills are weapons and people will little regard for others are more likely to inflict pain and suffering on others. Do you want to be the one to give them the tools to make it easier?

Just something to think about.

[Ou Ji]

Ou Ji, you have issues man.... don't lay them on me....

Dude, you are so funny. And clueless, did I mention you were clueless?

Your responses are evidence of your overinflated ego. Must be tough being perfect huh?

Trust me, I'm right.

[lkfmdc]

My exposure to CTS is nothing more than seeing his qigong demos over the years.



Limited exposure means you aren't likely at risk. Had you spend more time, I'd suggest you run the your doctor and get an innoculation as quickly as possible! :D

[Ou Ji]

I was wondering why I had this urge to wrap wire around my body.:D

[lkfmdc]

Dude, you are so funny. And clueless, did I mention you were clueless?

Your responses are evidence of your overinflated ego. Must be tough being perfect huh?

Trust me, I'm right.

Being perfect is so natural to me, it's no effort at all :rolleyes:

"Clueless"? Funny you of all people say that. You do realize that you can visit a mental ward and all the patients are convinced they are right and the outside world is wrong?

Trust me, you need to look at yourself first before you comment on me!

But pleasant dreams and all, oh wait, it's day, have a good day

[Ou Ji]

You do realize that you can visit a mental ward and all the patients are convinced they are right and the outside world is wrong?

So how have you managed to stay on the outside?

I can see that you will absolutely HAVE to have the last word so like Chris's offer to me I'll let you have it. Besides, I know just like this last post that it will be more evidence of your ego thus supporting my comments.

'Nuff said.

[hskwarrior]

ohhhhhhhhhhhh, thats why i recognize CTS, he was the one who would go around doing the Iron Wire.....i remember now.

[EarthDragon]

lkmdkf

The reason I cut and pasted those things you said was not for he others on this board it was for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

perhaps if you re read what you post you would be a little embarrassed by the names you call people put others down brag about yourself.

You claim to be a coach......... part of coaching as well as teaching is to be a role model. your so educated you say why would you stoop to such a ignorant level to get yout point across??????????

You very well may have some tradtional trainign but it is cloiuded by your ego and ignorance toward others. help promote MMA and TCMA not degrade it by flowing $hit out of your mouith all the time...

even funnier is you mentioned 11 names of chinese people you are best friends with. then in the next post you sia I dont like to drop names........

and to boot you said you were a gurest and are good frineds with end tat mau wong whom i called last week and funny thing is.....he has never heard of you . remember i lived in SF for a few years. and my shrfu was very well known... so it is hard to speak of SF without me knowing and keeping in contact with Doc Fei, johnny, bing and the others from grant street

[lkfmdc]

Earth Dragon, either you're just lying or you did something dumb like asked him if he knew "LKFMDC"... Tat Mau Wong knows me very well, by name is David Ross. In fact, even though I don't really deal with TCMA types much these days, we saw eachother at Cung's event this year since he was running the team trials for the WKF...

If it makes you feel better to believe that I've just had "some tradtional training" go right ahead, whatever it takes to get a good night's sleep fer ya

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Sifu Ross and i have had our differences.. Dave is Dave and he will be true to who he is, like it or not.. Dave will have the last word, trust me on this one.. he is tenacious, cunning and "in your face".. I say this in hopes that some of you that find him abrasive or distasteful will have the common sense to get over it, i did.. i respect his ability to stay on his track and market his work.. those that take up pages of trying to out do him are wasting valuable time and space.. he is his own man and you won't change that.. in the end, the efforts of all involved give CMA/TCMA a black-eye.. look at the title of this thread, then look at the direction it has gone.. the evidence suggests we don't have a clue about morals and ethics.. a young novice or prospective student cannot reason anything positive from this type of activity.. i can visualize the red-faced posters with shaking hands swearing profusely as they pound-out each emotional response to Dave's posts.. guess what, in the ring he would own you on your inability to stay calm and focused.. if you let Dave entice you into an exchange he gets publicity and hangs your name up on his board of victims (remember, this is just my imaginings)..

To the degree that anyone resorts to name-calling or insulting, you have lost the real battle.. self-control..

Be well..

[SevenStar]

perhaps if you re read what you post you would be a little embarrassed by the names you call people put others down brag about yourself.

from what I see, he 'brags' more about his students than himself...


You claim to be a coach......... part of coaching as well as teaching is to be a role model. your so educated you say why would you stoop to such a ignorant level to get yout point across??????????

you know what they say, when in rome...



even funnier is you mentioned 11 names of chinese people you are best friends with. then in the next post you sia I dont like to drop names........

People here are always question who he's trained under and what he actually knows - what do you expect?

[lkfmdc]

Seven Star, don't point out stuff to them, logic and facts just get them all upset :D

I seldom talk about myself, I talk a lot about my students, because in discussions/arguments about training they are my evidence as to why I think my methods work... Few can debate my students are very successful fighters

It is truly funny that people ask "who are you and why do you think you know so much!" then get angry when you answer them and they don't like the answer!

Heck, even Ou Ji admitted that in this thread, I was simply responding to Frank :p

Earth Drgaon, I just noticed something, you called Tat Mau within the past two weeks and talked to him???

LMFAO, did you call him in Vietnam?? that's where he is right now.... :cool:

[lkfmdc]

Dave will have the last word, trust me on this one.. he is tenacious, cunning and "in your face"..



I love you too Bob :D

I may have to disappear tomorrow and the next day, so if I miss you all, let me say now HAPPY NEW YEAR

at least until the "real new year" you know CHINESE new year ;)

[monkeyfoot]

GOD. Why dont you all stop dissecting each others posts.

WASTE OF SPACE

go train
craig

[SevenStar]

you posting the above was also a waste of space

If I wasn't at work, I would be training. Since I am at work, well... you can fathom the rest...

[lkfmdc]

Seven, go back to work and stop wasting space dissecting posts...

Some people just don't know when to stop posting, but not me doc, just tell me to stop posting and I stop posting, yes sir eh doc, stop posting (Bugs Bunny voice)

[monkeyfoot]

you're.................really.............fun..... .ny

:rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

admit it, without me this place would be brutally dull :D

[Kristoffer]

morals and ethics is good to have..

specially if ur underground like EarthDragons mom, holmes.

[hskwarrior]

wait a minute,

i definitely liven this place up as well.

Don't make me start a new thread about how you are always hogging the limelight.

******!! **** you to hell!!!!!!!!:mad:

;)

[David Jamieson]

In my opinion, morals and ethics are for kids classes and even then, the attempt should be to take the lessons to those of the experiential realm instead of the all too familiar complex etiquette systems that we see in it's place. (IE: take a kids class out and teach them how to care about people by distributing sandwiches to the homeless that the whole class has prepared. When you are finished with your charitable task, discuss it with the class and ask them questions about the exercise, what they think now and how it made them feel to particiapte- this is only one small example)

Older students don't require lessons in morals and ethics. They either have a set by then or they don't. If you can't hack that in a person, or if you have problems with widely differing ethics and morals, then perhaps you shouldn't bother with that person.

Many people twist ethics and morality tales to suit their own ideas anyway. Probably better to keep it at a basic level.

IE: school rules to follow such as treat each other fairly, extend coutesy to everyone, wait your turn to speak, etc...

Taking it to the level of personal interpretations of confucian analects or taoist parabels is often the path of folly. lol

[EarthDragon]

quote from David Ross aka coach ross aka lkldmk

I seldom talk about myself

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

here is just a expmple from this thread alone dude!





1.? IE other than being the adopted disciple of Chan Tai San, the youngest person (Chinese or White) to be asked to perform at the NACMAF national masters' demonstration,

2.a key figure in my lineage,

3. the person who has written more on my tradition than anyone in the western world, LOl that one is rather funny

4. the trainer of world and national champions,

5. one of the few non-Chinese who has been accepted into many important TCMA organizations,

6. the only white guy who hung around with Pak Hok Pai and Hop Ga in San Francisco, the guy drinking beer with Chan Poi at the bar,,,, I could go on

7. I don't drop names, I point out facts.



8. Not only do my lineages make you seem pathetic,

8. so do my friends. YOu wanted to compare level of acceptance in the Mo LUm....

9.I run with the big boys, while you play around in the kiddie pool

10. this is the best one yet David.........Compared to you, I am the lord almighty.

11.I've trained 3 world champions

12. 18 national champions.

13.My students compete, win and hold titles in boxing, kickboxing, San Da, Lei Tai, Muay Thai, grappling and MMA....

14.I have over 250 active students right now.

15. Every year I went to Tat Mau Wong's event as an honored guest, had my expenses paid, dinners bought for me, etc...

16.I performed in the masters demonstrations.

17.In the 1990's I spent every summer in SF's Chinatown, training with a lot of respected TCMA people.

18. I have higher, much higher, lineage than you in Choy Lay Fut.

19. I've done it longer.

20. I've done TCMA longer.

21. I am considered an equal by very reputable and respected masters.

22.I'm also more educated than you are, but that isn't even a stretch.

23.I've been teaching longer,

24. I have a proven record of producing better students.


25.People who know me know my first wife was drop dead beauty,

26. and my second wife is BETTER looking...seven star

please show me where he brags about his students.


tachi bob, i always enjoy your posts but you dont think this guy is full of himself? you really dont think he thinks he is better than anyone else?

Ross, your a loser who has to brag about himself so people like you.

please just for a minute shut up for 2 seconds and re read what you say.... and try to do that without your usual ignorant name calling and put downs.. your the kid in school who says I know you are but what am I? thats your only defense to insult others. grow up.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Earthdragon:


AMEN !!! :cool:

[monkeyfoot]

''cant we all just get along''

[PangQuan]

I saw someone doing back flips. I was impressed.

When I say "nice back flips" he says "yes I know, I am very good. I can do back flips better than anyone I know. I am so good at back flips, I make other peoples back flips look silly"

after this took place. I was no longer impressed.

To boast of your merit is to remove yourself from its grace.

[Ou Ji]

Unfortunately that's a typical American attitude which fuels the dislike other cultures have for us. That wouldn't win you any friends in Japan.

And people say the French are arrogant.

Actually I don't think any culture likes it, not even our own yet many Americans are so arrogant they really don't care.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


tachi bob, i always enjoy your posts but you dont think this guy is full of himself? you really dont think he thinks he is better than anyone else? What i think about David Ross is of no real importance, how i conduct my self on this forum is.. David is David like it or not.. time spent trying to change or out-do him is a waste.. Consider that the amazing amount of attention he gets (good or bad) is good marketing.. and, the people feeding his marketing scheme are just free advertising.. some of it is hot air, much of it is laced with truths.. and, it doesn't matter.. The only thing that matters is learning, either you are learning from him or being used by him.. the choice is yours..

The pity of it is that he wanders these threads derailing good discussions with lame bait that way too many people go for (i've gone for it, too).. the pity is not his, it is for those that can't resist the bait.. it is obvious what dave's MO is, and he's okay with it.. it's the mullets that keep going back to the bait that keep him entertained.. heck, now i'm even entertained by it occasionally..

I respect Dave's tenacity, his willingness to execute a plan, and his documented achievements.. personally i don't care for his methods, it's not my style.. but, you have to admit it works for him.. The more people fuel the fire, the hotter it gets..

Be well..

[rogue]

Unfortunately that's a typical American attitude which fuels the dislike other cultures have for us. That wouldn't win you any friends in Japan.

And people say the French are arrogant.

Actually I don't think any culture likes it, not even our own yet many Americans are so arrogant they really don't care.

Of course the Japanese aren't arrogant. :rolleyes:

This false humility BS that gets tossed around is hilarious. Ross has done a lot, and unless you see him saying something false get over it.

[Ou Ji]

Japanese culture, as far as individuals go, frowns on bragging about yourself.

I believe Chinese feel the same.

If complimented on your skill saying "D a m n right I'm good" will not score you any points.

And BTW, it's more than just a matter of humilty. It's also a matter of being rude and insulting to others.

[rogue]

Don't mistake manners for humility.

[lkfmdc]

Earth Dragon still can't grasp a real basic concept...

He cut and pasted my comments form this thread, where I was answering Frank. Even Ou Ji admitted that was the case, so get over yourself




please show me where he brags about his students.



It's kind of say you say that when you listed some of them in your own post....


4. the trainer of world and national champions,

11.I've trained 3 world champions

12. 18 national champions.

13.My students compete, win and hold titles in boxing, kickboxing, San Da, Lei Tai, Muay Thai, grappling and MMA....

[lkfmdc]

Oh, and Earth Dragon, before you continue posting you need to handle a serious credibility issue

You claimed you called Tat Mau last week and asked him about me.. Tat Mau wasnt' in San Francisco, he was in another country.

Care to explain?

As for...




here is just a expmple from this thread alone dude!

1.? IE other than being the adopted disciple of Chan Tai San, the youngest person (Chinese or White) to be asked to perform at the NACMAF national masters' demonstration,

2.a key figure in my lineage,

3. the person who has written more on my tradition than anyone in the western world, LOl that one is rather funny

4. the trainer of world and national champions,

5. one of the few non-Chinese who has been accepted into many important TCMA organizations,

6. the only white guy who hung around with Pak Hok Pai and Hop Ga in San Francisco, the guy drinking beer with Chan Poi at the bar,,,, I could go on

11.I've trained 3 world champions

12. 18 national champions.

13.My students compete, win and hold titles in boxing, kickboxing, San Da, Lei Tai, Muay Thai, grappling and MMA....

14.I have over 250 active students right now.

15. Every year I went to Tat Mau Wong's event as an honored guest, had my expenses paid, dinners bought for me, etc...

16.I performed in the masters demonstrations.

17.In the 1990's I spent every summer in SF's Chinatown, training with a lot of respected TCMA people.

21. I am considered an equal by very reputable and respected masters.

24. I have a proven record of producing better students.

tachi bob, i always enjoy your posts but you dont think this guy is full of himself? you really dont think he thinks he is better than anyone else?



Simple "challenge", can you say any of those above are not true? No, you can't, so get over it...

[lkfmdc]

Ultimatewingchun

Master Killer asked you to explain how long and when you trained with Tony C and how you got your catch wrestling training, you ducked the question.

WHY?

[lkfmdc]

Unfortunately that's a typical American attitude which fuels the dislike other cultures have for us. That wouldn't win you any friends in Japan.

And people say the French are arrogant.

Actually I don't think any culture likes it, not even our own yet many Americans are so arrogant they really don't care.

Ah, the virtues, morality and ethics of traditional Japanese society....

The same society that brought us the r--- of Nanjing, Brigade 731, the Battan death march, forced sexual slavery, POW torture, and a host of other atrocities

Those guys thought they were the epitomy of Bushido... funny huh?

[rogue]

Ah, the virtues, morality and ethics of traditional Japanese society....

The same society that brought us the r--- of Nanjing, Brigade 731, the Battan death march, forced sexual slavery, POW torture, and a host of other atrocities

Those guys thought they were the epitomy of Bushido... funny huh?
Don't forget Hello Kitty, Pokemon and the Gameboy which has made more boys go blind than an old copy of Playboy.

[David Jamieson]

Wait a minute, The French ARE arrogant.

take that frenchy!

[EarthDragon]

lkfmdc,
No Tat is not in Vietnam, Dont know where you heard that. I still keep in touch with lots of people in the SF as I lived there for quite some time. and if you think you know him what is his wife's name? what level of choylifut did he reach adn from whom?where was his first school on irving in the sunset or on mission or the one in the tenderloin? Please dont think I dont know what I am talking about.

As far as the list of things you stated and asked if they are true or not i dont care. my point is you dont need to brag about what you think you have accomplised in order to make your point.

but i will say when you said you have written more on your tradtion then anyone else in the western world was hilliarious!!!!!!!!!!!!!! can I have a copy of just one of the books you have published?

and you say your a equal to many masters? who? what chinese master considers you anything?

LOL you make such outrageous claims that it has to be hard to even fit your over inflated head thorugh the door to type on your computer.

PS when you said you brag about you students and you gave an expmple you
re- typed everthing about what YOU have done... again its all about YOU!!!!!! ro shoudl I say I I I I I I I ..........step down dude. your nobody in everyones elses world................

[SimonM]

I believe Chinese feel the same.


Um... I have no clue what the argument is over so this is probably OT...

My girlfriend gets embarassed when I complement her. And I don't mean if I shout out complements from the rooftops; I mean if it's just the two of us and I tell her that she is clever, beautiful, kind, what have you she gets embarassed by it.

On the other hand I have seen plenty of proud, arrogant, vain and self-important people here in China and they were not all Laowai. People are people regardless of where you are. Some are humble. Some are vain.

[SimonM]

at least until the "real new year" you know CHINESE new year ;)

This is what I love about China.

Chinese people need almost no excuse to throw a huge party. We had a MASSIVE new years party on December 31st! We will hold yet another massive party on the first day of Spring Festival and then there will be a big party on the Lantern festival... That gets me through the party schedule all the way to my girlfriend's lunar callendar b-day which is three days before my solar callendar b-day... Double birthday parties! I'm sure that there will be some excuse to party in march.