Yi Lu/ Er Lu Quan (Shaolin)

[rickyscaggs]

This site has probably been posted before. Apologies if so.

Are these first two forms (yiduan and erduan chang quan) the same Yi Lu and Er Lu Quan that are in the Shaolin circles? Aren't they Wushu and what about the 3rd and 4th set?

http://jiayo.com/videos/contemporary.html

[r.(shaolin)]

Yi Lu and Er Lu are not names of sets - they simply mean first and send 'road.' Are the sets you
are referring to in Shi De Qian's encyclopedia?
The sets - labeled Yiduan, Erduan, Sanduan, and Siduan Chang quan on jiayo.com are modified, simplified and shortened old Hong Chang Quan sets. (In the 4th set, the running in an wide arcs are a modern addition). When these sets were redesigned during the early 1950's, standardized basics developed by the Research Commission of Chinese Physical Culture, were also incorporated.
Our tradition Shaolin Da and Xiao Hong are directly connected with Hong (overwhelming) Chang Quan, a style credited to Zhao Kuangyin (960-976). Yi Lu and Er Lu as shown, when combined, in general resemblances Shaolin Xia Hong Chang Quan, and 3 and 4 has a general resemblance to Da Hong Chang Quan in our tradition.

You might want to check out this thread:
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31789
r.

[rickyscaggs]

Thanks for your input. The yi lu quan and er lu quan I was talking about were ones I heard people from USA Shaolin Temple talk about. In their first level classes they have basic forms being chuji quantao, yi lu quan, and er lu quan. I just wonder what forms these are. I've seen them perform a set with the double hammer strikes and punch with kick in the same way this yi duan chang quan was done. So I wonder if that's it. But I also heard er lu quan is very long. So that must not be it. I have no idea what chuji quantao is except that it's a primary stance building set.

[Mortal1]

I trained at the USA temple. The forms you are asking about are wushu longfist(changquan) forms.

Chuji quntao is the first sport wushu form taught. Yan Ming added a couple of moves at the end. Also they only practice on one side. Also I was told Sifu yan ming made it up. That is not true. He only added 2 moves at the end.

Yiluquan is the second duan. In wushu you move up through the forms as you get the hang of them. He taught these as a base for Shaolin.

Erluquan is a shortened watered down version of the sport wushu 3rd duan. At the usa temple this form is taught without many of the subtle movements.

In sport wushu there are six duans. Those are the first three. The sixth duan is the actually sport wushu competion form.

Wushu is taught at the shaolin temple until you make level two. Then you start learning the more tradiotnal stuff. But no one tells you that.

Also all the level 1 basics are wushu. I just wish he would let people know the differences. I learned after I started taking straight up sport wushu.

Yes I know all the above forms. I trained them for years.

[rickyscaggs]

On that site then,

Yilu= 2nd duan
Erlu= 3rd duan
And Chuji quantao is just Chuji quantao.

That's odd. Is it because Shi Yan Ming thinks people aren't good enough for basic Shaolin when they start?

[Mortal1]

Pretty much.

They teach wushu first early on at the temple as well. My problem is they leave out many of wushu's subtletys.

If you are good at wushu you will be good at shaolin. When I made level 2 it was easy for me to learn xiaohongquan.

It is all in the way it is trained. If you go slow and focus on sitting in the stances, power and postures then to me it is more tradiotonal. Focus on ariels, form and technique=modern wushu. I do both.

[rickyscaggs]

What subtleties do you mean?

Wushu is pretty badass sometimes. :cool:

[rickyscaggs]

Mortal, you make it sound like these sets are the same in wushu and at the temple only done a little differently. I was told by some others that at the temple some sections of the sets are completely different. How different were they when you learned them? Someone also told me that Yi Duan Chang Quan is most like their Yi Lu Quan. Some of the others are similar but completely different in sections. Is this what you have learned from them?:

Chuji Quantao= Yi Duan Chang Quan
Yi Lu Quan= Er Duan Chang Quan
Er Lu Quan= San Duan Chang Quan

[Mortal1]

"Mortal, you make it sound like these sets are the same in wushu and at the temple only done a little differently. I was told by some others that at the temple some sections of the sets are completely different. How different were they when you learned them? Someone also told me that Yi Duan Chang Quan is most like their Yi Lu Quan. Some of the others are similar but completely different in sections. Is this what you have learned from them?:'

Chuji Quantao= Yi Duan Chang Quan
Yi Lu Quan= Er Duan Chang Quan
Er Lu Quan= San Duan Chang Quan

I would say more like

Chuji quantao=chuji quantao
Yilu quan=Yiluquan
Erluquan=erluquan

Chuji quantao at the usa temple is only done on one side. Not so subtle. I don't know it as Yi Duan Chang Quan. I know it as basic stance form.

Yi lu quan looks exactly like the wushu version. Except for the way you move you arms.

People like to say things are completely different if one move is different. THey are NOT ocmpletely different. For some reason people that train at the temple like to think the level one stuff they are doing is true shaolin. This creates problems and cunfusion. Because it isn't. it is sloppy sport wushu. There is nothing too wrong with that but there needs to be honesty when teaching. if you are telling paying customers what they are learning is Shaolin and then teach wushu for the first couple of years that is a problem.
The bottom line is wushu is taught at the usa temple to beginners.

I think wushu is totally bad ass and a lot better then the stiff linear shaolin styles I have learned.

To be honest I don't feel like diving in to all the subtle differences. It would take to long to explain and i don't know the extent of your knowledge of these forms.

[rickyscaggs]

I posted a similar topic at ShaolinWolf in the USA Shaolin Temple section titled "basic sets" to ask them. They told me a lot about it and the differences. Maybe you can check that. I saw a video of their Yi Lu Quan and a clip of Chuji Quantao. But they said Er Lu Quan is not alike with Er Duan Chang Quan at all except for maybe a few moves.

[Mortal1]

"I posted a similar topic at ShaolinWolf in the USA Shaolin Temple section titled "basic sets" to ask them. They told me a lot about it and the differences. Maybe you can check that. I saw a video of their Yi Lu Quan and a clip of Chuji Quantao. But they said Er Lu Quan is not alike with Er Duan Chang Quan at all except for maybe a few moves."

I post there too but it has been a while. Their erluquan is a much shortened version of the wushu form.

Can I ask why are you interested in this topic? What are you looking to get out of it?

I will check the other thread.

[GeneChing]

In wushu, there are actually 9 duan. In fact, we just ran a cover story on one of the 9th duan holders, GM Cai Longyun, in our NOV DEC 2005 issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=624). We discussed the 9 duan system in a sidebar in the cover story on another 9th duan, GM Ma Xianda, in our NOV DEC 2002 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=244). I think there are 10 living 9 duans at this time.

Now to complicate matters, Shaolin has it's own independant duan system, which I discussed in my article Battling to be Shaolin’s Best: The Shaolin Kung Fu Grade “A” Tournament in our 2003 Shaolin special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=397). I'm not sure how that's going now since I didn't go back to Shaolin last year.

Shi Yanming has probably established his own duan system for just within his school. Both of the wushu duan and shaolin duan systems require national and regional examinations, and I doubt Yanming, or any monk for that matter, has the authority to adminster such exams alone.

[rickyscaggs]

Mortal-
A while back I remember seeing someone from USAST post a video of that Yi Duan Chang Quan and ask others if it looks familiar. Then I saw lots of posts about Chuji Quantao, Yi Lu Quan, and Er Lu Quan being their beginning forms. I wondered if it's the same as these Wushu forms which I've known of before. Then it just becomes more interesting.

Gene-
I don't think we were talking about the Duan ranking system, but about a group of Wushu sets.

[Mortal1]

Hey Ricky

I just posted on shaolinwolf go check it.

Yes they are the wushu forms. For some reason usa temple people get insulted if you tell them they are training sport wushu.

You are correct we are not talking about master rankings. We are talking about the different difficulty levels of wushu forms. They too are ranked like duans.

[rickyscaggs]

I just checked it. I like the forms. I think they provide a good base because they are meant to be done slowly focusing on postures and mechanics. They are more simple movements. So it's good. It seems the only probably is that they aren't told that it's Wushu, even if Wushu was created using some aspects of Shaolin.

[Mortal1]

Thats all I'm saying.:)

[ngokfei]

If you want Shaolin Temple boxing style then I woudl recommend Shi Guo Lin's School in flushing. Trained there for a short time but the material/forms was not openly Wushu. I learned the 5 step set, connecting fist set, small hong fist and plum flower fist, oh and 1/2 of the yin staff?

Now the 5 step they do is most definetly a spin off o fthe contemporary 5 stance set. I've even modified it to use in my eagle claw curriculum.


as for the Contemporary wushu duan/forms. they are great when taught along with the proper contemporary basics or "jiben". I teach up to the 4th level in my children's classes that's to the 32's. After that they go into the traditional material.

[Mortal1]

I have watched a class and am friends with a level 2 chick from there. It isn't wushu. My only problem with saying its traditional is they don't spar ever. I can't see not sparring if it is traditonal at least for the top students.

I will always train wubuquan it has all the needed stances for good kungfu.

When you say 32's do you mean years of age. If so I'm missing kids class by a year. lo:)

[GeneChing]

Duan literally means 'level' but I'm not clear what Mortal1 means by saying:
In sport wushu there are six duans. Those are the first three. The sixth duan is the actually sport wushu competion form. Can you link us to the thread on Shaolinwolf here?

[rickyscaggs]

We're talking about Wushu sets called Yi Duan Chang Quan, Er Duan Chang Quan, etc.. Not levels of rank but levels of sets. The videos are in my first post.

[rickyscaggs]

http://www.shaolinwolf.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/2/187.html#000038

On there I posted as "Buddha", Mortal posted as "Damo Sword".

[Mortal1]

Gene

I am suprised you don't know about this. The wushu sets are taught in levels or duans. There are 6 duans. The sixth is competition long fist.

[GeneChing]

The only time I really dabbled in wushu was in college - that was the mid 80's and there was no discussion of duan level teaching back then. Things were pretty primative still - there wasn't even internet. :eek: I've sampled little wushu moves and forms since then, just for fun, so I never really encountered any sort of rigid pedagogical structure. Of course, perhaps that's my nature. If I'm getting the same lesson everyone else is, I feel like I'm not training properly.

We have a lot of wushu instructors in our area - a veritable glut of them, in fact - and I haven't noticed this six duan pedagogy, but then again, I haven't looked to hard at it. Most of the masters here seem to be making up their own systems, setting their levels akin to what most American schools do with belt grading. But I confess that my working knowledge of wushu is very limited. While we cover it a lot, perhaps more than any other magazine, it's definitely not my focus of research. I been having a hard time keeping track of all the new rennovations, especially lately.

Now I'm curious if this overlaps with the Shaolin compulsories. I've seen some of the Houston monks working the compulsories, but are students doing it in NY? Otherwise, I've only seen it in Dengfeng.

That's an amusing thread, guys. Thanks for sharing.

[richard sloan]

I post there under my disciple name, as heng fa.

It is a funny thread.

Anthony when are you going to start competing?

[Mortal1]

This year. Not sure when my first one will be, but I will be at Wong fei Hung tourney in the fall. I want to make sure I have a great showing. I am not ready at the moment. Almost there.

The wushu duan system has been around for a long time. All wushu schools know about it and most go by it.
There is also different diffuculty level for indivdual moves.

My teacher was in your mag this month under wushu's rising star.

[Mortal1]

Also I should add I will be competing in every category.

Traditional northern I will do bajiquan.

Wushu = Chang quan

And fighting.

Maybe Broadsword.

He wants me to focus on internal like he did. He says pigua, bagua and Xingyi would be good for my style.

[ngokfei]

gene

check these sites: Should give you an idea of what they are talking about.

Proposed 2008 NEW Compulsories

http://www.cmaod.com/2008.html

Duan Levels for Contemporary Wushu

http://www.cmaod.com/WushuStandard.html


The 32's are what is found in the red book series and was the 1st group of compulsories in the late 70's and early 80's.

The next compulsories came in the late 80's and early 90's (what every body is used to seeing at the tournaments)

The newest compulsories were developed for the 2008 olympics but have now been scraped as if Wushu does make it to the games it will revert back to the method of the 70's based on Gymnastics. (a few required movements but the form is created/developed by the coach/athlete, personally I prefer this as to watch 50 people doing the same set as is done in the wushu games is quite boring (IMHO).

later

[GeneChing]

We actually used to carry the old compulsories, if you'll remember. MartialArtsMart/TCMedia (http://www.martialartsmart.com) had the initial exclusive contract, but that was before this was initiated. We had the option to renew a few years ago, but it was exhorbitantly expensive and wushu is the least lucrative of all our markets. My theory about this is that most wushu practitioners are kids through college, and they're all spending their money on videogames and downloads. Actually, the VCD market changed it all too.

Jacque Rogge, President of the IOC, stated emphatically last October that wushu would not be part of the 2008 games. But I agree with you, ngokfei, I like the new difficulty moves much better - I can't watch those compulsories over and over and over again. The only thing worse is group musical tai chi. :p

Mortal1, who is your master again and which issue is that in?

[Mortal1]

Hi Gene

I can't watch the same form over and over either. I much prefer the individual routines. Play them to your strengths. Nothing is worse than a yang tai chi group demo! Oh wait chi gung group demo! :p

He was in inside kungfu not your mag sorry. Here is the school site for my wushu teacher www.nycwushu.com. He is a great man personally and would make a good article for your mag. You could do a wushu duan angle with him. He is currently teaching me the beijing wushu team broadsword.

He is in inside kungfu magazine this month. Under "kungfu 's rising star"

[GeneChing]

I had a sneaking suspicion it was IKF. As for 'doing' articles, my research dancecard is pretty full these days. But we *do* accept freelance submissions (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/about/guidelines.php), so if you think you got something, email me privately at the address on this link.