MMA's and Wing Chun

[wei wu wei]

I am interested to hear any responses to the following:

Say a group of competitive MMA's approached you as a Wing Chun Gung Fu man and asked you to teach them anything that they may be able to use in terms of striking. What would you show them and how could it be manipulated to best fit their paradigm?

[stonecrusher69]

I don't think I would show them anything.I would not want someone to make chop suey into my art...Just my own personal way of doing things.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good question,www...

The method I use of employing a boxing/kick boxing structure along with TWC centraline principles and footwork to fight one's way into a close limb-to-limb contact striking range - from a longer distance...

is one thing I personally reccommend.

But once at the closer range - then wing chun methods and techniques can really kick into a higher gear than what I decribed from the longer range.

And at this point - one's expertise at chi sao is the key factor in answer to your particular question, imo. So rather than talk about individual principles, strategies, and techniques that one might be able to use at the closer range (squaring up your centerline, lop sao, pak sao, huen, jut, tan, etc.)...

I'll just say that in general, it's the contact reflex sensitivity that chi sao teaches - along with the centerline principle - and the use of (mostly) straight line striking that form the biggest overall contribution to one's arsenal that wing chun can give you at this distance. (Not that I'm underestimating the importance of things like boxing hooks and uppercuts from close range, mind you - for they definitely can also play a role...along with some Thai methods of using elbows and knees - as well as some real effective use of elbows, knees, and sweeps that wing chun offers).

And from a MMA point of view, this close range is very critical - because it's so very close to clinch and takedown range. So wing chun can add a whole new striking/kicking/trapping/unbalancing dimension to one's standing infight.

[wei wu wei]

Thanks Victor,

So are you saying that it is more favourable to use thai and boxing for the striking range and then slip into Wing Chun at the near clinch range?

If so, then would you suggest that thai and boxing lend themselves to MMA far easier than Wing Chun?

(My own inclination is to say that it is difficult to integrate Wing Chun into MMA training).

[Samuel Fong]

WWW in a few months I will have an answer for you. At the request of one of the top MMA training gyms in the world.( multi UFC champions ) my Sigung is putting together a seminar on this topic. Based on questions that they asked after my Sibak visited them for a workout.

I trained in Muey Thai and other arts for many years before I started Wing Chun.

It depends on your wing chun I think if it fits with MMA or not. Also will depend on how your body and contact reflexes are trained.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Thanks Victor,

So are you saying that it is more favourable to use thai and boxing for the striking range and then slip into Wing Chun at the near clinch range?

If so, then would you suggest that thai and boxing lend themselves to MMA far easier than Wing Chun?

(My own inclination is to say that it is difficult to integrate Wing Chun into MMA training).


***MY OWN PERSONAL PREFERENCE from longer range can be found on the opening post of a previous thread entitled WING CHUN BOXING...(and if you look in the archives under threads that I've started - you'll find it).

So no...I'm not saying that Thai and boxing (by themselves) are more favorable from longer range (I do believe that TWC centraline principles, strategies, and footwork - along with some boxing/kickboxing methods and techniques - are the most favorable ways to get to close range..(which is not to say that other methods like boxing, Thai boxing, JKD, etc. won't work - because they certainly can)...

but I personally find maximum efficiency in the method I just described.

As to your other point - it IS difficult to integrate wing chun into MMA training - if you're one of those wing chun guys with a closed mind about it! ;)

(And I might add - if you're one of those MMA/Thai/Boxing guys with a closed mind about wing chun). :rolleyes:

[stricker]

i think its already happening in a roundabout way. ive been taught stuff pretty close to wing chun by an mma instructor who comes from jeet kune do and jun fan, which came from wing chun.

also things get very blurred especially around mma and jkd types. so if you see a technique whos to say if its thai boxing or wrestling or even if it came from wing chun via jkd?? so i dont think mma people really care about being taught wing chun or style X or whatever, just what works and fits in their overall style. eg even thai boxing has to be adjusted for mma, same as wrestling or anything, as the traditional style has weaknesses when put in mma.

to answer the question well im not a teacher so i dont know. but i guess id run quickly through entry strategy (theyd pick it up real quick) then into a basic version of chi sao get the main ideas and shapes across, play with it see what happens. also some ideas on body mechanics might be useful but i think thats the real stumbling block: doing wing chun properly takes years to learn, mma people want stuff that they can pick up and run with within like a few hours.

also, some people in mma like to use the chain punch, but they really suck at it. id straighten 'em out :D

hey samuel,

hit us with some details when you get them!! im definitely interested!

[anerlich]

Gum sao and chain punching to counter the double leg takedown. Dim Mak.

Oh, and WC's deadly groundfighting, of course.

;)

[Mr Punch]

Anerlich, you're forgetting how the deadly footwork can neutralise shoots/tackles :rolleyes:

Actually, I find wing chun skills to be great in getting into and jockeying for position in the clinch (No, seriously!):

working the inside,

passing from inside to outside and vice versa like the swimming exercise,

getting head control,

keeping constant pressure on the head/neck etc with lots of short range quick-changing strikes to make every second at close range count in wearing them down and maybe even get a chance opening for a big one,

chi gerk style trips and takedowns,

short jerks back or forwards to provoke an overcommitment so you can get back in and stick to take advantage of the offbalance would have to be a particularly good one for wing chun energetics...

Plus sneaking elbows in past the judges! :eek: - er, I mean, and good for competitions where elbows are allowed! :D

[Mr Punch]

Wing chun sucks on the ground. Of course. But... wing chun's sinking skills are quite good for ground and pound when used in conjunction with the variety of strikes we can use at short range... often not big fight stoppers but can cause the necessary openings for one and keep the pressure up, and without losing the pressure you need at your waist to sink down in your opponent's guard which many standard boxing-/jujutsu- style g-n-p-ers end up doing.

I'm not saying it's vital for the gorund game, or that it can't be found in other places, but it can be used from wing chun.

BTW, there are a couple of other things: specifics like jamming up and bouncing off the inside of your opponent's arms, but these are no good for seminars as you need a history of gainful chi sao to get used to these skills... so no good for just mixing it up.

[Ultimatewingchun]

***EXCELLENT POST, Mat...:cool:



Anerlich, you're forgetting how the deadly footwork can neutralise shoots/tackles :rolleyes:

Actually, I find wing chun skills to be great in getting into and jockeying for position in the clinch (No, seriously!):

working the inside,

passing from inside to outside and vice versa like the swimming exercise,

getting head control,

keeping constant pressure on the head/neck etc with lots of short range quick-changing strikes to make every second at close range count in wearing them down and maybe even get a chance opening for a big one,

chi gerk style trips and takedowns,

short jerks back or forwards to provoke an overcommitment so you can get back in and stick to take advantage of the offbalance would have to be a particularly good one for wing chun energetics...

Plus sneaking elbows in past the judges! :eek: - er, I mean, and good for competitions where elbows are allowed! :D

[anerlich]

Hey Mat,

I think you're bang on with WC's posssibilities in the standing clinch. In many ways "trapping" works better in the clinch mode than at striking range.

My instructor, also a BJJ purple belt, is currently going through a real heavy phase of working wrestling applications of chum kil.

Of course, if you don't practice a good amount of clinch work besides, just "knowing" the form ain't going to help much.

[AndrewS]

Matt, AndrewN,

I'm pretty much there with you on the clinch being a sweet place to find good use for Wing Chun- I try to pull at least one clinch app out of each piece of SNT, CK, and BT (my project of the last few years). Lots of very finicky positional stuff makes much more sense when dealing with neck tie, overhook, underhook.

From what I can tell, this is one of the things that distinguishes my teacher, Emin. He has significant experience both with Muay Thai and wrestling in Europe, where even freestyle folks learn more upperbody wrestling, and actually teaches pummelling as a basic drill from which to learn to defend wrestling attacks. Not trying to sound lineage-centric, just another data point.

FWIW- aside from what's already been mentioned, I think the idea of applying short power with rapid changes, one bouncing into the next is *extremely* useful and probably one of the more important conceptual pieces of the art I would try to convey to someone from outside the system. The importance of hitting tight can't be overstated if you are concerned the other person may be better on the ground than you.


Andrew

[wei wu wei]

I am appreciative for the responses and for what its worth would like to provide a few observations. I was hoping for a bit more feedback in terms of how to incorporate the striking from Wing Chun to work within the mixed martial arts paradigm.

I have spent about four hours so far with a group of mixed martial artists and the majority of the drills that I have shared are based predominantly on footwork, and particularly cutting off the ring or cage. This includes all manner of stepping and shuffle stepping, as well as angled steps to move either out or into a line of an attack. I have emphasized that each fighter use the means of stepping that they are most comfortable with, whilst encouraging sinking their bodyweight just prior to the moment of impact from one of their strikes.

I have worked various ways to generate power with follow-through from for example, the hips either torquing or thrusting forwards, or more effectively, the entire body lunging forwards when delivering a strike. In terms of particular strikes, I tend once again, to gear it towards the build and aptitude of the learner. That said, I have tried to cover chain punching to create openings for takedowns.

Sticking skills have been applied to making space in the clinch as well as avoiding being struck from the guard. Overall, I have covered punching form multiple angles, palm strikes from multiple angles with some latitude for combinations. I think the fundamental skill that I am trying to convey is closing quickly and efficiently.

In terms of Wing Chun against grapplers, I think unfortunately falls flat unless one is prepared to attain some quality tuition from a well versed practitioner of ground fighting. As for the theory that there are hidden ground applications in the Wing Chun system, I think this would require a liberal translation of aspects of the forms and whereas I do not subscribe to such a theory, I would not discourage Wing Chun fighters to ‘find’ or ‘construct’ such applications. For me, this is just another manifestation of people trying to complicate what remains at its core, a simple fighting method.

My own selfish comments after having watched, trained with, and taught this particular group of mixed martial artists is that they did nothing that impressed me. I certainly was not in awe of their conditioning and in fact had cause for concern in relation to their stand up skill, or lack thereof. On the ground a few of them were pretty fluid, but after having engaged in some free flow or randori I found that I was able to keep up with them and even managed to pull of some basic chin-na locks on the instructor.

The reason why I raised this thread was following a discussion I had with a friend who started his martial arts career about 12 years ago in WSL method Wing Chun and then moved into Mixed Martial Arts. When I asked him which parts of Wing Chun he found could be of use on the fighting circuit, he felt that boxing and muay thai are far more compatible than anything that Wing Chun had to offer to a mixed martial artists training regime.

[Nick Forrer]

The reason why I raised this thread was following a discussion I had with a friend who started his martial arts career about 12 years ago in WSL method Wing Chun and then moved into Mixed Martial Arts. When I asked him which parts of Wing Chun he found could be of use on the fighting circuit, he felt that boxing and muay thai are far more compatible than anything that Wing Chun had to offer to a mixed martial artists training regime.

Boxing and muay thai are much more 'plug and play' then wing chun and are easier to 'bolt on' to a grappling base. The basics can be picked up in an afternoon and three months of solid training will give you a good grounding. Contrast this with learning slt, ck, dan chi sau, chi au, bong lap and all the rest. Something like Rodney Kings crazy monkey so called 'non attribute' based boxing is enough for many grapplers to neutralise the striking range, get into the clinch and take their man down to where they are comfortable. WC is overkill for them.

As an aside I recently got a wc training partner of mine to lie on the floor, I mounted him and told him to escape while I rained punches down on him. He did a good job of defending the punches but he couldnt get me off and once he tired I subbed him pretty easily. Conversley when I got him to mount me - it took me all of 3 seconds to escape and put him in my guard. Thats just with a blue belt in BJJ. Honestly with 6 months to a year consistent training 2x a week you can escape from pretty much any hold that a non grappler will put you in. If you're serious about self defence definitley a worthwhile investment IMO.

[Nick Forrer]

Matt, AndrewN,

I'm pretty much there with you on the clinch being a sweet place to find good use for Wing Chun- I try to pull at least one clinch app out of each piece of SNT, CK, and BT (my project of the last few years). Lots of very finicky positional stuff makes much more sense when dealing with neck tie, overhook, underhook.
Andrew

A couple of sweet apps I am getting a lot of mileage out of at the moment are standing arm triangles (so easy just to slip that arm past your head and on to your collar bone LOL) and arm drags to RNCs (Marcelo Garcia style minus the jumping on to the back).

[Mr Punch]

A couple of sweet apps I am getting a lot of mileage out of at the moment are standing arm triangles (so easy just to slip that arm past your head and on to your collar bone LOL) and arm drags to RNCs (Marcelo Garcia style minus the jumping on to the back).Not sure I'm picturing those right at the mo (my memory for technical terms in Chinese or English is terrible since I've been learning Japanese - and my shooto teacher uses a mix... in general I just copy what he does and forget the name!).

If they're what I think they are I'm not sure how I'd work those best in a wc format as opposed to my teacher's jujutsu or my previous aiki...?

[Mr Punch]

Wei wu wei.

Not sure if I'm getting your sit right but it seems to me that if you're primarily after striking apps, and they already have boxing experience from MMA classes you may be wasting your and their time with out-of-context wing chun striking. To me the strength of wing chun striking is the swift flowing changes of angle and weapons and the way that with a good combo you can also get their and flow into the takedown/throw if you need to. But the problem with this is at its basic level this is best taught with chi sao and sensitivity drills, before you get to sparring. If they already have boxing they already have the jab-antenna for sensitivity and plenty of ways of quickly changing the angles.

The ideal range for this advantage is in the clinch, and you can practise clinch drills but they're not going to get any significant advantage over boxing-trained strikers unless they work a) with MMA gloves, not boxing gloves and b) on their wall bags before they move to their heavy bags (for the penetrative short striking).

In short, taking a couple of bits out of wing chun to tack onto their MMA is not necessarily going to be effective. If it is it will be because of the idiosyncratic defiencies of that group and its training methods so we can't help you here... unless you start going into individual quirks.

[Merryprankster]

multi UFC champions

Hmmm. Very curious about this.

Apart from the Miletich camp and perhaps Team Quest, I can't think of any gyms that are "multi UFC champions," at least recently.

I suppose maybe the Lion's Den in the past.

I'm not doubting that a seminar is being put together or that the gym the seminar is going to is good, I'm just wondering what gym it is.